Another angle on Kokinis

[Pumpkin Eater]

Denver also went 8-8 last year. Browns? 4-12

[kshutchins]

@earl34 said:

Let me lay some things we've heard about George Kokinis' ouster out for you

1. George Kokinis and Eric Mangini are good friends

2. George Kokinis was said to be terminated "with cause" and that the Browns had spent several weeks looking at his phone records (per ESPN)

3. George Kokinis was not involved in the Braylon Edwards trade (multiple sources)

4. There were rumors of Kokinis being uncomfortable in the role in Cleveland

5. Lerner wanted Kokinis to be more visible even asking him recently to do an interview for SI (per ESPN). Multiple sources state that Kokinis was never visible since draft day. He spoke to no one in the press box in Chicago on Sunday.

6. Lerner now says he wants a "serious, credible" leader

7. When Lerner met with the fans he told them that he wouldn't discuss Kokinis' firing to "protect the privacy of his family".

Assuming that we can agree that these things are true, there is one thing that really bothers me. There is another possibility here beyond

a) Eric Mangini threw one of his best friends under the bus

Lerner wanted to axe Kokinis because of the on-the-field product being poor.

Here it is:

Eric Mangini's friend George Kokinis was being fired "with cause" and that cause is REAL and either very serious on a personal level or related to an inability to do this job. So that his good friend can both save face and potentially work again in the NFL...Eric Mangini is falling on his sword and taking the slings and arrows.

IS THIS POSSIBLE? I THINK IT IS.

Now, EM could simply be what ESPN is trying to sell you (a backstabber) but does it REALLY make sense that he'd sell out this guy who is not only a long-time friend but on the board of his charitable foundation?

Here's another thought. Maybe Kokinis really WASN'T doing his job and Mangini HAD to do his job and Kokinis' job? Maybe "with cause" means "with cause".

I have fired five people in my life. When you fire someone with or for cause, it's real. They've done something negative outside of the boundaries of what's expected. Maybe George Kokinis did something immoral. The Browns are serious about not paying Kokinis and that plus the phone record confiscation lead me to think that there is really something here that we don't know about. Why else would Lerner give a hoot about the family's "privacy"? No one would risk the legal action that would ensue firing for cause unless the dirt was real.

People are speculating that Mangini and Kokinis butted heads, but was it about personnel or was it about Kokinis not holding up his end of the work?

It doesn't bother anyone else that we are being force-fed the ESPN version of the facts when, quite frankly, no one knows any more than the above? There are a lot of media out there who (for good reason or not) hate your coach. He's 1-7 and he's an easy target. Why would you buy a story that fundamentally does not make real sense? Why do we assume that Kokinis was fired for the on-the-field product? I can't believe that this board is going to be a bunch of lemmings and follow everything that ESPN reports or some blogger happened to vomit onto the internet. BE SMART PEOPLE!

After taking some time to digest this situation and hearing bits of information here and there from Bernie and a few players, I have come to agree with you on this. At first I thought Kokinis was just a scapegoat. Now I'm thinking that your explanation makes more sense. It's also possible that Mangini tried to remedy the situation on his own to protect his friend, causing a fatal distraction. Ultimately, whatever was going on interfered with preparation for the draft and Mangini's work with the team. I can even see how Mangini's credibility could be undermined in the organization if he's talking "character" in the lockerroom while covering for a friend who is behaving in a way that clearly demonstrates poor character. I can also see how dealing with "friend/GM not doing their job" issues could be stressful enough to interfere with clear thinking. Hence the "I haven't yet decided which QB will start" nonsense.

The business about Kokinis finding excuses to stay in the office and not do any scouting really has nagged at me. That he wasn't involved in the Edwards deal was also troublesome. It's possible he and Mangini just didn't agree on matters relating to the team. It's also entirely possible that Kokinis felt totally lost and in over his head without the support of the organization he had left. Or both.

This sort of drama is a distraction to everyone and can leave the players lost (Jamal Lewis' comments would support this). If the coach is too busy trying to straighten out friend/future of the franchise issues to communicate with his players, then there's a serious problem that shows on the field.

I can also see how it might have taken Lerner a while to become aware of the issues. Maybe he knew and tried to do the personal kindness of letting Mangini try to handle his friend without taking steps that would become public, while doing the research necessary to have grounds to act decisively when the time was right.

The Cleveland media, in my opinion, aren't very good at ferreting out the truth in situations like this. If it's not on a silver platter, they're lost. So I take what they say with a grain of salt. Lerner's an easy target but he may actually be getting this right.

I hope this bye week provides an opportunity for Mangini to clear the air in a number of ways. And I've come to believe that a strong new voice to help guide the organization through the upcoming draft is essential.

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

Ravens won't be making any claims against the Browns

Posted by Mike Florio on November 8, 2009 11:02 AM ET

Lost in the recent termination of Browns G.M. George Kokinis is the apparent reality that Cleveland finagled the hiring of Kokinis by officially giving him final say over the roster -- but by unofficially not letting him use it.

It's the same thing that happened a couple of years ago in Miami, when the Dolphins gave final say to G.M. Jeff Ireland in order to be able to get him from the Cowboys, even though anyone with a pulse and an ounce of common sense knows that Bill Parcells has veto power there.

Per a league source, the Ravens will not be making any claims regarding the Browns' arguable misrepresentation of Kokinis' authority in order to hire him away from Baltimore under circumstances that otherwise would have allowed the Ravens to keep Kokinis from leaving. The reason? Despite the high degree of animosity between the two cities in which the teams play, the owners -- Randy Lerner and Steve Bisciotti -- have a very good relationship.

Under the rules, a front-office employee still under contract may be hired by another team without the consent of his current employer only if final say over the roster is included in the new duties. By all appearances, the Ravens were not going to let Kokinis leave unless he received final say.

So Kokinis did, but he really didn't. Instead, it appears that coach Eric Mangini wanted -- and got -- a worker bee, and that the Browns put whatever they had to put in the contract in order to get said worker bee.

Then, apparently, when the worker bee was merely being a worker bee and when the queen bee needed a scapegoat, the queen bee complained that the worker bee was merely being a worker bee.

Though the Ravens won't be making a stink about this one, it could get very ugly between the Browns and Kokinis. We'll have more on this later in the day.

[professor_g]

Adam Schefter (sp?) was just reporting something to the effect that Kokinis was required to undergo counceling. Perhaps he wasn't well.

[EdwardG]

Rutigliano, Dieken, Grossi, and Donovan all agreed on their show a few days ago that Kokonis just wasn't qualified and/or ready for the GM job. My guess is that he's both a victim and at fault. He came in and was quickly marginalized by Mangini. He realized that the contract giving him final authority and reality were two different things. Some personalities withdraw when confronted by conflict, particularly if they think it isn't a hill worth dying on. Kokonis realized he didn't have the allies, didn't feel up to the battle (or felt that he couldn't win or come to an understanding), and so he just mentally checked out and awaited his doom. Those of us who've been in very bad work atmospheres can relate. It may be that he wasn't ready for a GM job, particularly in an environment that was the opposite of calm and developmental, and so he quickly sank and drowned in the cesspool that is the current Browns org.

Mangini just seems very hard to work with. While it's easy to call on people to man up and work for the boss, imo alienating those who work with and under you is nothing but bad leadership. EM needs a pink slip.

[berniesipe]

"I have fired five people in my life. When you fire someone with or for cause, it's real. They've done something negative outside of the boundaries of what's expected"

You being a assistant manager at Rally's firing some pimply face 16 year old kids for missing work is a little different in this situation.

[kshutchins]

@edwardg said:

Rutigliano, Dieken, Grossi, and Donovan all agreed on their show a few days ago that Kokonis just wasn't qualified and/or ready for the GM job. My guess is that he's both a victim and at fault. He came in and was quickly marginalized by Mangini. He realized that the contract giving him final authority and reality were two different things. Some personalities withdraw when confronted by conflict, particularly if they think it isn't a hill worth dying on. Kokonis realized he didn't have the allies, didn't feel up to the battle (or felt that he couldn't win or come to an understanding), and so he just mentally checked out and awaited his doom. Those of us who've been in very bad work atmospheres can relate. It may be that he wasn't ready for a GM job, particularly in an environment that was the opposite of calm and developmental, and so he quickly sank and drowned in the cesspool that is the current Browns org.

If I had to, I'd guess this is closer to the truth than anything else.

[Earl34]

berniesipe said:

"I have fired five people in my life. When you fire someone with or for cause, it's real. They've done something negative outside of the boundaries of what's expected"

You being a assistant manager at Rally's firing some pimply face 16 year old kids for missing work is a little different in this situation.

Try again....if you want to see my professional credentials....we can have that pissing match too.

[Earl34]

@professor_g said:

Adam Schefter (sp?) was just reporting something to the effect that Kokinis was required to undergo counceling. Perhaps he wasn't well.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

[JoeSixPat]

I'm sure the fact that Lerner's hired a former Secret Service agent to dig into phone records to weasel out of their contract and the notion that the Browns organization is now attempting to discredit the sanity of the former GM is going to do WONDERS in their efforts to attract the best available GMs to come to this wonderfully run organization.

Any top tier GM candidate that sees that degree of a smear campaign on the last GM is sure to say "Yeah! That's the place where I want to go!!!!"

Smart guy that Lerner.

Letting Mangini tell everyone that he'll be helping to make the call on the next GM has to be a big plus as well.

Good to see Lerner's getting a grip on things.

[kshutchins]

@joesixpat said:

I'm sure the fact that Lerner's hired a former Secret Service agent to dig into phone records to weasel out of their contract and the notion that the Browns organization is now attempting to discredit the sanity of the former GM is going to do WONDERS in their efforts to attract the best available GMs to come to this wonderfully run organization.

Discredit his sanity? Encouraging the guy to attend counseling does no such thing. A counselor is nothing more than a life coach that helps you sort through issues. They are experienced at helping people maintain or regain functionality in their daily lives when they become overwhelmed by events or situations. They facilitate communication that can be beneficial to all parties involved. I know many perfectly sane people who have successfully worked with counselors for lots of different reasons. I also know many people who would benefit greatly from counseling but who THINK it reflects on their sanity so they don't go. If more people thought of counselors as coaches, many of us would be happier.

[Kosar_For_President]

@professor_g said:

Adam Schefter (sp?) was just reporting something to the effect that Kokinis was required to undergo counceling. Perhaps he wasn't well.

In other news, Schefter reported the Browns ordered Kokinis to undergo counseling because Kokinis had become so withdrawn. The report said Kokinis and Mangini rarely if ever talked, which is ironic since Kokinis was hired on Mangini's recommendation after 13 years with the Ravens following five with the Browns.

Reporters who covered training camp daily found it strange Kokinis was rarely on the practice field observing, and when he was on the field he was hardly ever with Mangini. Instead he would watch practice from a golf cart in the fieldhouse — not exactly a box seat. Asked how he could learn anything from practice from that vantage point, Kokinis said he would watch the tapes of practice to assess the players.

[EdwardG]

Hearing that Kokonis wasn't involved in the BE deal, it makes me wonder if EM really got what he could for Edwards. If EM is as overwhelmed as it sounds, and not trusting or relying on any front office help, did he just take a call from his comfort zone (his old team) and get what he could for BE because he decided that he had enough of him, or was he soliciting offers from the rest of the league?

The Tribe got what looks like a bad return for Lee, but at least you know there that the GM and his underlings were talking to other teams like the Dodgers beforehand, so they got what they thought was the best deal.

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

Browns' case against Kokinis seems to be weak

Posted by Mike Florio on November 10, 2009 11:18 AM ET

Last week, we complained that the decision of the Browns to drop only vague hints regarding the reasons for the departure of G.M. George Kokinis seems grossly unfair to Kokinis.

Comments from owner Randy Lerner suggesting that the developments were "unforeseen" coupled with other circumstances prompted speculation that Kokinis must have done something very wrong, bad, or both to be fired "with cause."

Over the past several days, more details have emerged. Apparently, the team's argument in support of firing Kokinis and not paying him is that Kokinis wasn't working.

Recent reports have suggested that Kokinis was "in over his head," that became "disconnected" from coach Eric Mangini, that the two men had little if any contact, and that Kokinis became so withdrawn that the team "ordered him into counseling."

Did it ever occur to the team that the problem wasn't Kokinis, but Mangini? Lured from Baltimore with a written contract giving Kokinis full authority over the roster, Kokinis made the mistake of believing that the content of the document reflected the true state of affairs. By all appearances, Mangini steamrolled Kokinis. So should it be a surprise if, eventually, Kokinis' demeanor reflected the domination that Mangini was displaying?

Moreover, we've heard from several sources that Kokinis wasn't simply going through the motions.

"He'd call me from his office at midnight," one source said. "George is a worker. All he does is watch film. You can say anything you want about George, but you can't say he didn't work hard."

On one hand, we understand that owner Randy Lerner doesn't want to be responsible for an ever-growing list of buyouts. But this is the wrong way to do business, and it will as a practical matter makes folks with options less likely to trust the team when offered employment.

Moreover, while the Browns benefit from the fact that any legal fight regarding Kokinis' ongoing compensation will be decided by the league office, the Browns need to be careful about what they say and do beyond the confines of the employment relationship. If they keep sending out smoke signals that Kokinis did something far worse than what he really did, Kokinis might be able to seek some relief in a court of law, too.

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

Thats 2 Mangini bashing acticles by FLorio and its not even noon yet. Any wagers on how many he writes today? Its atleast 5 or 6 a day. Come on Florio write a real, informative, non cleveland bashing article. I dare you, bet you cant do. Prove me wrong