ESPN pure Mangini Hate
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So you're saying that last year with a supposedly much better roster we almost won 5 games?
Mangini cut 26 guys from that roster and traded a handful of others. How many of those cut have caught on with other teams? (hint, you can count them on one hand).
We beat bad teams, so what? We're a bad team, and you've got to start somewhere. Letting Mangini go would be a travesty after what he's built from nothing.
Your citing of the 24/26 stats only serves to indicate that we were in fact a terribly untalented team last year. Yet even with that terrible roster had DA or BQ still been at QB for the last 4 games we would have ended up with 5 wins. This year other than Pittsburgh the Browns have been beating on bottom-feeders. We are a 4-11 team, a record that demonstrates we still suck. Sure we`re not the worst team in the NFL, but we`re no better than we were last year. Without Harrison and Cribbs, we really would be at the bottom of the barrel. We`ve already reached our ceiling under Mangini. Just like when he was with the NYJ, the best we`ll become under him is a mediocre, 8-8 team that only makes the playoffs if it gets lucky.
Other negative points of Mangini is that he is a terribe play-caller and game-manager, utterly fails at making in-game adjustments, and is completely unable to work with other people. Holmgren`s vision of a consensus-based team essentially precludes Mangini from being in the picture.
Your citing of the 24/26 stats only serves to indicate that we were in fact a terribly untalented team last year. Yet even with that terrible roster had DA or BQ still been at QB for the last 4 games we would have ended up with 5 wins. This year other than Pittsburgh the Browns have been beating on bottom-feeders. We are a 4-11 team, a record that demonstrates we still suck. Sure we`re not the worst team in the NFL, but we`re no better than we were last year. Without Harrison and Cribbs, we really would be at the bottom of the barrel. We`ve already reached our ceiling under Mangini. Just like when he was with the NYJ, the best we`ll become under him is a mediocre, 8-8 team that only makes the playoffs if it gets lucky.
Other negative points of Mangini is that he is a terribe play-caller and game-manager, utterly fails at making in-game adjustments, and is completely unable to work with other people. Holmgren`s vision of a consensus-based team essentially precludes Mangini from being in the picture.
I've asked before but now I'm serious. Can we have a BS button put next to the "thank you" button?
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This will be the last time I answer the question as to why Harrison wasn't starting until recently.
You do not put a guy on the field who is going to make mistakes! It is better 100 out of 100 times to lose to a better team than to beat yourself with mistakes. Especially while installing a new system and rebuilding from the ground up. Harrison is good yes. But the fact that he wasn't playing, same as Robo, says more about the player than it does about Mangini. Not to mention Lewis is a leader in this team and you don't set examples by sitting your leaders for players who cannot block, catch, and fumble. The only time you make that move is when one guy is holding back an otherwise power-house team. When creating an identity and purging a bad envorinment, you don't make that move. These are the little things that effect culture, attitude,and identity of a team.
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As to the running game. The Browns have absolutely done a great job running the football in the last couple of games. What about the early part of the season--does Mangini bear any responsibility for that? Since Harrison has clearly shown that he's the #1 back on the team, why did it take the Mangenius so long to recognize his talent? Would the Browns have been so good on the ground if Jamal Lewis hadn't gotten injured, thus making the decision for him?
I answered this dismissive line of logic in another thread. It hasn't been all Harrison. The offensive line has been amazing in this run . . . and most will tell you that an offensive line needs to play together for a while to jell as a unit. We had 170 yards plus against the #1 rush defense in the NFL (Pittsburgh) and Harrison hardly even contributed to that. In the historic game against the Chiefs, our offensive line had one of the most dominating performances I've ever seen. There were the proverbial holes that you could have driven a truck through. On one play I saw Mack knock down the first guy in his path and then drive a LBer 15 yards off the ball and into the end zone.
Just for the sake of the "it's all Harrison" argument, lets compare the Pitt and Oakland game, remembering that Pitt is the #1 rushing defense in the NFL and Oakland like 30th. Harrison had a 3.8 ypc average on 39 carries against Oakland, while Jennings -- a guy that a CFL team cut -- had 3.7 yards a carry on 20 carries against Pitt. Harrison had 7 carries and averaged well under 2 yards a carry in that game. The week before Harrison had 10 carries against SD and averaged 3.5 yards. Jennings averaged 5.8 yards a carry in that game. Cribbs has averaged about 8 yards a carry in this same span. Yet, Mangini rewarded Harrison by giving him feature back carries against KC for demonstrating he could pick up a blitz.
Also don't forget that starting week 3 of the season, Mangini tried to give Harrison more work. He gave him 17 carries against Baltimore where Harrison averaged 3.3 yards per carry. The next week he gave Harrison 29 carries against Cincy where Harrison rushed for 4.2 yards a rush, but got stripped for a 75 yard Cincy' TD. He then was unable to practice most of the next week and averaged only 2.6 yards on his 8 carries against Buffalo while Lewis gained over 100 yards. Harrison then got some work as a third down back and one one memorable play made no attempt to pick up a blitz and nearly got Quinn killed.
The line play has gotten better. Mack gets better each game. It's not just Harrison.
And talk to me when Harrison has kept this up from the start of the season through its mid point. He's been terrific, but you have a guy who's got fresh legs going up against defenses in week 15 and 16 of an NFL season. A feature back has to be able to play nicked up and be a guy you can count on to carry a load through a 16 game schedule and hopefully into the playoffs. I think it was 2004 when Lee Suggs had a similar finish to a season.
As for the bubble teams not wanting to play the Browns, I'm for being a fan, but while I'm sure they would rather play the Chiefs or Lions, being the most dangerous 4-11 team in the NFL is hardly something to hang your hat on.
Okay, but the main point of your post was that they are worse than their 4-11 record. Talent-wise, you may be right. But that's largely a vestige of the previous regime's failure. What I contest in your statement is that they are actually playing better than any other 4-11 or 5-10 team. Probably better than a couple who are 7-8.
I answered this dismissive line of logic in another thread. It hasn't been all Harrison. The offensive line has been amazing in this run . . . and most will tell you that an offensive line needs to play together for a while to jell as a unit. We had 170 yards plus against the #1 rush defense in the NFL (Pittsburgh) and Harrison hardly even contributed to that. In the historic game against the Chiefs, our offensive line had one of the most dominating performances I've ever seen. There were the proverbial holes that you could have driven a truck through. On one play I saw Mack knock down the first guy in his path and then drive a LBer 15 yards off the ball and into the end zone.
The offensive line didn't need to jell, they needed to be replaced. And they were, it's a different offensive line now. Without taking anything away from Jerome, he probably wouldn't have had as much success as of late if we hadn't changed our offensive line before the Kansas City game. If you'll notice, instead of the usual Hank Fraley and John St. Clair on the right side, for these past two games we've been starting Rex Hadnot and Floyd Womack. I don't believe they are the prime reason our rushing attack has been so good as of late, I think many things factor into it- i.e. the quality of teams we're playing, the weather, the "surprise" factor, Harrison playing for a starting position next year.
I like Hank Fraley, he's a great utility lineman. He can fill in anywhere he is needed, and that's an admirable quality. I'd rather have him in that utility role, but I also wouldn't absolutely hate if he was a starter next year. St. Clair, on the other hand, needs to go. He's absolutely abysmal, I honestly know I can do better than him, and I'm only 20. The right side of our offensive line has been a problem all year, mainly because of St. Clair. We had to bring in Greg Estandia, a 6'8" blocking TE, as well as run a number of Max Pro formations just to keep our QB alive. These last two games, however, QB pressure hasn't necessarily been a problem, and the running lanes have been WIDE open.
I think adding a quality RT in the draft would give us arguably one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. Joe Thomas is fantastic, for lack of a better word. Eric Steinbach is a little past his prime, but still serviceable. Alex Mack is going to be one of the best centers to play the game, of that I am certain. Either Womack, Hadnot or Fraley can be a passable guard. And I would love to see Russell Okung anchor the right side of the line for years to come.
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I answered this dismissive line of logic in another thread. It hasn't been all Harrison. The offensive line has been amazing in this run . . . and most will tell you that an offensive line needs to play together for a while to jell as a unit. We had 170 yards plus against the #1 rush defense in the NFL (Pittsburgh) and Harrison hardly even contributed to that. In the historic game against the Chiefs, our offensive line had one of the most dominating performances I've ever seen. There were the proverbial holes that you could have driven a truck through. On one play I saw Mack knock down the first guy in his path and then drive a LBer 15 yards off the ball and into the end zone.
The offensive line didn't need to jell, they needed to be replaced. And they were, it's a different offensive line now. Without taking anything away from Jerome, he probably wouldn't have had as much success as of late if we hadn't changed our offensive line before the Kansas City game. If you'll notice, instead of the usual Hank Fraley and John St. Clair on the right side, for these past two games we've been starting Rex Hadnot and Floyd Womack. I don't believe they are the prime reason our rushing attack has been so good as of late, I think many things factor into it- i.e. the quality of teams we're playing, the weather, the "surprise" factor, Harrison playing for a starting position next year.
I like Hank Fraley, he's a great utility lineman. He can fill in anywhere he is needed, and that's an admirable quality. I'd rather have him in that utility role, but I also wouldn't absolutely hate if he was a starter next year. St. Clair, on the other hand, needs to go. He's absolutely abysmal, I honestly know I can do better than him, and I'm only 20. The right side of our offensive line has been a problem all year, mainly because of St. Clair. We had to bring in Greg Estandia, a 6'8" blocking TE, as well as run a number of Max Pro formations just to keep our QB alive. These last two games, however, QB pressure hasn't necessarily been a problem, and the running lanes have been WIDE open.
I think adding a quality RT in the draft would give us arguably one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. Joe Thomas is fantastic, for lack of a better word. Eric Steinbach is a little past his prime, but still serviceable. Alex Mack is going to be one of the best centers to play the game, of that I am certain. Either Womack, Hadnot or Fraley can be a passable guard. And I would love to see Russell Okung anchor the right side of the line for years to come.
The offensive line didn't need to jell, they needed to be replaced. And they were, it's a different offensive line now. Without taking anything away from Jerome, he probably wouldn't have had as much success as of late if we hadn't changed our offensive line before the Kansas City game. If you'll notice, instead of the usual Hank Fraley and John St. Clair on the right side, for these past two games we've been starting Rex Hadnot and Floyd Womack. I don't believe they are the prime reason our rushing attack has been so good as of late, I think many things factor into it- i.e. the quality of teams we're playing, the weather, the "surprise" factor, Harrison playing for a starting position next year.
I like Hank Fraley, he's a great utility lineman. He can fill in anywhere he is needed, and that's an admirable quality. I'd rather have him in that utility role, but I also wouldn't absolutely hate if he was a starter next year. St. Clair, on the other hand, needs to go. He's absolutely abysmal, I honestly know I can do better than him, and I'm only 20. The right side of our offensive line has been a problem all year, mainly because of St. Clair. We had to bring in Greg Estandia, a 6'8" blocking TE, as well as run a number of Max Pro formations just to keep our QB alive. These last two games, however, QB pressure hasn't necessarily been a problem, and the running lanes have been WIDE open.
I think adding a quality RT in the draft would give us arguably one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. Joe Thomas is fantastic, for lack of a better word. Eric Steinbach is a little past his prime, but still serviceable. Alex Mack is going to be one of the best centers to play the game, of that I am certain. Either Womack, Hadnot or Fraley can be a passable guard. And I would love to see Russell Okung anchor the right side of the line for years to come.
I'm not completely disagreeing with you. St. Clair as been terrible. But I think we went out during the Steelers game when our run game was already clicking.
Hadnot did not replace HF during the Chiefs game -- they rotated. Fraley took more snaps. In fact, here is a synopsis from OBR that was on point:
The Browns offensive line is a different beast with Hank Fraley in the lineup at the right guard position. Everyone plays better and it is no coincidence that rookie center Alex Mack played his best game of the year with Fraley lined up beside him. Equally as important was moving Floyd Womack from right guard to right tackle. This unit was exceptionally mobile and they were blocking 20 yards down the field play after play. It was hard to take your eyes off the great runs but if you are a fan of offensive line play, last weeks contest is well worth replaying as it was classic.
It's been the guards in combination with Mack that have most impressed me. Steinbach seemed to be reborn since the Pitt game. I think a big part of this has been maturation of Mack and playing with these guards. For KC, it didn't hurt that they were an undersized team.
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The offensive line didn't need to jell, they needed to be replaced. And they were, it's a different offensive line now. Without taking anything away from Jerome, he probably wouldn't have had as much success as of late if we hadn't changed our offensive line before the Kansas City game. If you'll notice, instead of the usual Hank Fraley and John St. Clair on the right side, for these past two games we've been starting Rex Hadnot and Floyd Womack. I don't believe they are the prime reason our rushing attack has been so good as of late, I think many things factor into it- i.e. the quality of teams we're playing, the weather, the "surprise" factor, Harrison playing for a starting position next year.
I like Hank Fraley, he's a great utility lineman. He can fill in anywhere he is needed, and that's an admirable quality. I'd rather have him in that utility role, but I also wouldn't absolutely hate if he was a starter next year. St. Clair, on the other hand, needs to go. He's absolutely abysmal, I honestly know I can do better than him, and I'm only 20. The right side of our offensive line has been a problem all year, mainly because of St. Clair. We had to bring in Greg Estandia, a 6'8" blocking TE, as well as run a number of Max Pro formations just to keep our QB alive. These last two games, however, QB pressure hasn't necessarily been a problem, and the running lanes have been WIDE open.
I think adding a quality RT in the draft would give us arguably one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. Joe Thomas is fantastic, for lack of a better word. Eric Steinbach is a little past his prime, but still serviceable. Alex Mack is going to be one of the best centers to play the game, of that I am certain. Either Womack, Hadnot or Fraley can be a passable guard. And I would love to see Russell Okung anchor the right side of the line for years to come.
I'm not completely disagreeing with you. St. Clair as been terrible. But I think we went out during the Steelers game when our run game was already clicking.
Hadnot did not replace HF during the Chiefs game -- they rotated. Fraley took more snaps. In fact, here is a synopsis from OBR that was on point:
The Browns offensive line is a different beast with Hank Fraley in the lineup at the right guard position. Everyone plays better and it is no coincidence that rookie center Alex Mack played his best game of the year with Fraley lined up beside him. Equally as important was moving Floyd Womack from right guard to right tackle. This unit was exceptionally mobile and they were blocking 20 yards down the field play after play. It was hard to take your eyes off the great runs but if you are a fan of offensive line play, last weeks contest is well worth replaying as it was classic.
It's been the guards in combination with Mack that have most impressed me. Steinbach seemed to be reborn since the Pitt game. I think a big part of this has been maturation of Mack and playing with these guards. For KC, it didn't hurt that they were an undersized team.
I'm not completely disagreeing with you. St. Clair as been terrible. But I think we went out during the Steelers game when our run game was already clicking.
Hadnot did not replace HF during the Chiefs game -- they rotated. Fraley took more snaps. In fact, here is a synopsis from OBR that was on point:
The Browns offensive line is a different beast with Hank Fraley in the lineup at the right guard position. Everyone plays better and it is no coincidence that rookie center Alex Mack played his best game of the year with Fraley lined up beside him. Equally as important was moving Floyd Womack from right guard to right tackle. This unit was exceptionally mobile and they were blocking 20 yards down the field play after play. It was hard to take your eyes off the great runs but if you are a fan of offensive line play, last weeks contest is well worth replaying as it was classic.
It's been the guards in combination with Mack that have most impressed me. Steinbach seemed to be reborn since the Pitt game. I think a big part of this has been maturation of Mack and playing with these guards. For KC, it didn't hurt that they were an undersized team.
I thought he replaced him, it seemed like every time I looked it was Rex, not Hank. But I wasn't focusing my entire attention on the right guard position, either. I like Hank Fraley, and the idea of rotating him and Rex is pretty good, IMO.
Steinbach used to be so good, but the beginning of this year was terrible for him. I've always been a fan, his was the first Browns jersey I bought with my own money, but after the Baltimore game at home, I was actually hoping he would wind up on the bench. I think the only reason he wasn't benched is because Joe Thomas was particularly adept at picking up his slack as well as handling his own man. These last couple games have been great for him, though. And I can't say enough about Mack, the kid is special. I'm investing in a Mack jersey next. He'll be one of the great centers, assuming he doesn't go the way of LeCharles Bentley.
I think we're in agreeance on St. Clair, though. He was horrible, and he was bringing the entire unit down. You're only as strong as your weakest link.
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Let's get back to the topic at hand:
1. Tom Cable is worse than Eric Mangini.
2. Chris Carter was clearly drunk in that clip.
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So you're saying that last year with a supposedly much better roster we almost won 5 games?
Mangini cut 26 guys from that roster and traded a handful of others. How many of those cut have caught on with other teams? (hint, you can count them on one hand).
We beat bad teams, so what? We're a bad team, and you've got to start somewhere. Letting Mangini go would be a travesty after what he's built from nothing.
Your citing of the 24/26 stats only serves to indicate that we were in fact a terribly untalented team last year. Yet even with that terrible roster had DA or BQ still been at QB for the last 4 games we would have ended up with 5 wins. This year other than Pittsburgh the Browns have been beating on bottom-feeders. We are a 4-11 team, a record that demonstrates we still suck. Sure we`re not the worst team in the NFL, but we`re no better than we were last year. Without Harrison and Cribbs, we really would be at the bottom of the barrel. We`ve already reached our ceiling under Mangini. Just like when he was with the NYJ, the best we`ll become under him is a mediocre, 8-8 team that only makes the playoffs if it gets lucky.
Other negative points of Mangini is that he is a terribe play-caller and game-manager, utterly fails at making in-game adjustments, and is completely unable to work with other people. Holmgren`s vision of a consensus-based team essentially precludes Mangini from being in the picture.
We`ve already reached our ceiling under Mangini. Just like when he was with the NYJ, the best we`ll become under him is a mediocre, 8-8 team that only makes the playoffs if it gets lucky.
Other negative points of Mangini is that he is a terribe play-caller and game-manager, utterly fails at making in-game adjustments, and is completely unable to work with other people. Holmgren`s vision of a consensus-based team essentially precludes Mangini from being in the picture.
8-8? He was over .500 two out of three years.
Terrible playcaller and game manager? You realize that most of the plays are called by his assistants, don't you? Mangini is no worse at game-management than anyone else. To the contrary, I think he's too much of a game-manager.
Holmgren's vision and Mangini's continued employment are not mutually exclusive if you bothered to listen to his presser yesterday.
Don't let the details get in the way.
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Earl, will you at least concede that Mangini doesn't have a reputation for being a great gameday coach? I don't think he's done much this year to dispel that notion, especially considering how bad we were for most of the season.
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Earl, will you at least concede that Mangini doesn't have a reputation for being a great gameday coach? I don't think he's done much this year to dispel that notion, especially considering how bad we were for most of the season.
Earl, will you at least concede that Mangini doesn't have a reputation for being a great gameday coach? I don't think he's done much this year to dispel that notion, especially considering how bad we were for most of the season.
I thought that last year he was very good through the first 11 games (duh). This year has been less than great. To me it would seem uncharacteristic but I guess it always seems that way until it's the norm.
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Earl, will you at least concede that Mangini doesn't have a reputation for being a great gameday coach? I don't think he's done much this year to dispel that notion, especially considering how bad we were for most of the season.
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So you're saying that last year with a supposedly much better roster we almost won 5 games?
Mangini cut 26 guys from that roster and traded a handful of others. How many of those cut have caught on with other teams? (hint, you can count them on one hand).
We beat bad teams, so what? We're a bad team, and you've got to start somewhere. Letting Mangini go would be a travesty after what he's built from nothing.
Your citing of the 24/26 stats only serves to indicate that we were in fact a terribly untalented team last year. Yet even with that terrible roster had DA or BQ still been at QB for the last 4 games we would have ended up with 5 wins. This year other than Pittsburgh the Browns have been beating on bottom-feeders. We are a 4-11 team, a record that demonstrates we still suck. Sure we`re not the worst team in the NFL, but we`re no better than we were last year. Without Harrison and Cribbs, we really would be at the bottom of the barrel. We`ve already reached our ceiling under Mangini. Just like when he was with the NYJ, the best we`ll become under him is a mediocre, 8-8 team that only makes the playoffs if it gets lucky.
Other negative points of Mangini is that he is a terribe play-caller and game-manager, utterly fails at making in-game adjustments, and is completely unable to work with other people. Holmgren`s vision of a consensus-based team essentially precludes Mangini from being in the picture.
Your citing of the 24/26 stats only serves to indicate that we were in fact a terribly untalented team last year. Yet even with that terrible roster had DA or BQ still been at QB for the last 4 games we would have ended up with 5 wins. This year other than Pittsburgh the Browns have been beating on bottom-feeders. We are a 4-11 team, a record that demonstrates we still suck. Sure we`re not the worst team in the NFL, but we`re no better than we were last year. Without Harrison and Cribbs, we really would be at the bottom of the barrel. We`ve already reached our ceiling under Mangini. Just like when he was with the NYJ, the best we`ll become under him is a mediocre, 8-8 team that only makes the playoffs if it gets lucky.
Other negative points of Mangini is that he is a terribe play-caller and game-manager, utterly fails at making in-game adjustments, and is completely unable to work with other people. Holmgren`s vision of a consensus-based team essentially precludes Mangini from being in the picture.
Gayest post ever.
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Your citing of the 24/26 stats only serves to indicate that we were in fact a terribly untalented team last year. Yet even with that terrible roster had DA or BQ still been at QB for the last 4 games we would have ended up with 5 wins. This year other than Pittsburgh the Browns have been beating on bottom-feeders. We are a 4-11 team, a record that demonstrates we still suck. Sure we`re not the worst team in the NFL, but we`re no better than we were last year. Without Harrison and Cribbs, we really would be at the bottom of the barrel. We`ve already reached our ceiling under Mangini. Just like when he was with the NYJ, the best we`ll become under him is a mediocre, 8-8 team that only makes the playoffs if it gets lucky.
Other negative points of Mangini is that he is a terribe play-caller and game-manager, utterly fails at making in-game adjustments, and is completely unable to work with other people. Holmgren`s vision of a consensus-based team essentially precludes Mangini from being in the picture.
Gayest post ever.
Gayest post ever.
I've seen way gayer.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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