Pluto on Mangini
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I'm not sure that Terry Pluto meant 50/50 when he said "a long shot"
I know he meant longer, but the alternatives aren't endless, so I just peg the top end at 50/50.
The reality is he probably only has a 20-30% shot at retaining the job.
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does anybody else get the feeling that it is only the media that is manufacturing stories of how holmgren is goin to fire mangini ?
100% agree. Sure with a new President there is going to be speculation of the HC getting fired but I really think it's mainly the media that is fueling this.
100% agree. Sure with a new President there is going to be speculation of the HC getting fired but I really think it's mainly the media that is fueling this.
The only two national media members who I think are deserving of "respect" are John Clayton and Chris Mortenson. Clayton said Mangini is 100% gone, while Mort said it isn't nearly that cut and dry and recent developments indicate that he may very well stay.
Stay away from muckrakers like Grossi and any local radio hosts who discuss the Browns because a) they either aren't really clued into the behind the scenes moves, or
they don't actually watch the games and brush off the 3 game winning streak to close the season as worthless and meaningless (gee it sure is pointless to win games isn't it? i guess the team should have rolled over and gone 1-15 if they truly hated Mangini that much).Holmgren has a tough decision to make, and I'm hoping he and Mangini can work together in the future and continue the rebuilding process we've seen this year. There is literally no point in starting all over again one year after tearing everything apart. Remember, we gave Romeo and Savage 4 years and what did it get us? We traded Edwards and Winslow and we have the exact same record as we did last year. We cut 26 guys from last years roster and 3 made it to other teams. Mangini had nothing to work with. Sure he made some mistakes, such as the QB competition -- I'm sure even he would admit he should have picked a starter in training camp and gone from there. However, things have changed dramatically since the bye week and dropping dead weight like Lewis and relegating Royal to blocking duties. Keep the season in perspective. A few plays here and there and we beat the Bengals, Chargers, and Lions and we're sitting at 7-8 right now just like that, and are we still having the anti-Mangini conversations?
Look at the teams we have beaten:
Bills - bad team, but so were we. So bad in fact that though we won the game 6-3 our win was basically never in question.
Steelers - a tough team with some injuries, but that doesn't ruin the fact that our defense dismantled their team for 60 minutes and our run game dropped a bomb on what is usually a team who can stop the run.
Kansas City - they may be bad but they also beat the defending Super Bowl champions, and we put up historic numbers on them on a day when our defense coulnd't get their heads on straight.
Oakland - They've beaten the Steelers, Eagles, and a few other tough playoff teams and we made them look like a highschool squad.
It's no secret that we were god awful on offense at the beginning of the year, but that's what happens when you install a new system with unproven talent. Look at our season on a game-by-game basis and not as a whole and the improvements are undeniable.
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Certainly different fans have their different takes on many of Mangnini's moves.... was his handling of the QB situation "Mangenius" (or "Mangenious" as some like to spell it) or "MangIdiot"... Same with his earlier decision not to start Harrison at RB... decision to have rookies take a mandotory volunatary bus ride to CT while he hopped a flight etc etc...
Holmgren will look at those issues but I think the deciding factor for Mangini is the Kokinis issue
Mangini hand-picked Kokinis and there seems to be some disagreement over whether Kokinis truly WAS the GM.
It seems apparent that Mangini wanted full and complete control as the coach and defacto GM with all final decisions resting with him and not the GM.
NOW - with Holmgren as President and a yet to be named GM coming in, does Holmgren think that Mangini will suddenly willingly submit to TWO people with final say over him? Or will Holmgren recognize that Mangini's desire to have all the power and control might not fit with a new regime that is going to do things differently, with a true GM and Team President with authority over the coach?
That may be the deciding factor against Mangini.
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Certainly different fans have their different takes on many of Mangnini's moves.... was his handling of the QB situation "Mangenius" (or "Mangenious" as some like to spell it) or "MangIdiot"... Same with his earlier decision not to start Harrison at RB... decision to have rookies take a mandotory volunatary bus ride to CT while he hopped a flight etc etc...
Holmgren will look at those issues but I think the deciding factor for Mangini is the Kokinis issue
Mangini hand-picked Kokinis and there seems to be some disagreement over whether Kokinis truly WAS the GM.
It seems apparent that Mangini wanted full and complete control as the coach and defacto GM with all final decisions resting with him and not the GM.
NOW - with Holmgren as President and a yet to be named GM coming in, does Holmgren think that Mangini will suddenly willingly submit to TWO people with final say over him? Or will Holmgren recognize that Mangini's desire to have all the power and control might not fit with a new regime that is going to do things differently, with a true GM and Team President with authority over the coach?
That may be the deciding factor against Mangini.
Certainly different fans have their different takes on many of Mangnini's moves.... was his handling of the QB situation "Mangenius" (or "Mangenious" as some like to spell it) or "MangIdiot"... Same with his earlier decision not to start Harrison at RB... decision to have rookies take a mandotory volunatary bus ride to CT while he hopped a flight etc etc...
Holmgren will look at those issues but I think the deciding factor for Mangini is the Kokinis issue
Mangini hand-picked Kokinis and there seems to be some disagreement over whether Kokinis truly WAS the GM.
It seems apparent that Mangini wanted full and complete control as the coach and defacto GM with all final decisions resting with him and not the GM.
NOW - with Holmgren as President and a yet to be named GM coming in, does Holmgren think that Mangini will suddenly willingly submit to TWO people with final say over him? Or will Holmgren recognize that Mangini's desire to have all the power and control might not fit with a new regime that is going to do things differently, with a true GM and Team President with authority over the coach?
That may be the deciding factor against Mangini.
not really. See with kokinis, since he was a hand picked no show guy, Mangini can "roll over" him. In Holmgren you have a tough personality whom Mangini should report to. Anyone with an iota of intelligence will know that if u go against ur boss then u are out and im sure Mangini will try his best to be in Holmgrens good books. In effect, If Mangini shows improvements and willingness I think the Browns will have a kick ass team that can genuinely take the fight to the Steelers.
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100% agree. Sure with a new President there is going to be speculation of the HC getting fired but I really think it's mainly the media that is fueling this.
The only two national media members who I think are deserving of "respect" are John Clayton and Chris Mortenson. Clayton said Mangini is 100% gone, while Mort said it isn't nearly that cut and dry and recent developments indicate that he may very well stay.
Stay away from muckrakers like Grossi and any local radio hosts who discuss the Browns because a) they either aren't really clued into the behind the scenes moves, or
they don't actually watch the games and brush off the 3 game winning streak to close the season as worthless and meaningless (gee it sure is pointless to win games isn't it? i guess the team should have rolled over and gone 1-15 if they truly hated Mangini that much).Holmgren has a tough decision to make, and I'm hoping he and Mangini can work together in the future and continue the rebuilding process we've seen this year. There is literally no point in starting all over again one year after tearing everything apart. Remember, we gave Romeo and Savage 4 years and what did it get us? We traded Edwards and Winslow and we have the exact same record as we did last year. We cut 26 guys from last years roster and 3 made it to other teams. Mangini had nothing to work with. Sure he made some mistakes, such as the QB competition -- I'm sure even he would admit he should have picked a starter in training camp and gone from there. However, things have changed dramatically since the bye week and dropping dead weight like Lewis and relegating Royal to blocking duties. Keep the season in perspective. A few plays here and there and we beat the Bengals, Chargers, and Lions and we're sitting at 7-8 right now just like that, and are we still having the anti-Mangini conversations?
Look at the teams we have beaten:
Bills - bad team, but so were we. So bad in fact that though we won the game 6-3 our win was basically never in question.
Steelers - a tough team with some injuries, but that doesn't ruin the fact that our defense dismantled their team for 60 minutes and our run game dropped a bomb on what is usually a team who can stop the run.
Kansas City - they may be bad but they also beat the defending Super Bowl champions, and we put up historic numbers on them on a day when our defense coulnd't get their heads on straight.
Oakland - They've beaten the Steelers, Eagles, and a few other tough playoff teams and we made them look like a highschool squad.
It's no secret that we were god awful on offense at the beginning of the year, but that's what happens when you install a new system with unproven talent. Look at our season on a game-by-game basis and not as a whole and the improvements are undeniable.
Look at the teams we have beaten:
Bills - bad team, but so were we. So bad in fact that though we won the game 6-3 our win was basically never in question.
Steelers - a tough team with some injuries, but that doesn't ruin the fact that our defense dismantled their team for 60 minutes and our run game dropped a bomb on what is usually a team who can stop the run.
Kansas City - they may be bad but they also beat the defending Super Bowl champions, and we put up historic numbers on them on a day when our defense coulnd't get their heads on straight.
Oakland - They've beaten the Steelers, Eagles, and a few other tough playoff teams and we made them look like a highschool squad.
It's no secret that we were god awful on offense at the beginning of the year, but that's what happens when you install a new system with unproven talent. Look at our season on a game-by-game basis and not as a whole and the improvements are undeniable.
More important that WHO we beat is HOW we beat them.
Buffalo - Out -willed them
Steelers - Out schemed them
KC - Outscored them
Oakland - Out-played them/beat dey ass!!! Also, look at how we did it. Notice the team progression. Starts with trying hard, then out-smarting them, followed by out-performing them, finally an all around ass wooping in all phases of the game. EXCITING!!
This is important because bad teams win a few games by chance or luck. GOOD teams find ways to win all the time. So far, we have found 4 different ways to win. Now, I'm not saying we're good, we're not there yet, but this is more encouraging than 2007 when we all had the sense that we were getting lucky. By winning 4 games in 4 different ways including 3 in a row, you can see how this new coaching staff has put a plan in place and how its coming along. This is a long-term vision and the first sign that it is a good one is 4 wins, 4 different ways. Not one of which was luck. This team now is at the point where we have 55 guys who know what is going on. That's 55 potential tutors. Granted, only about 30 of them will remain but that's 30 core players. We are at the point now where, all we need to do is infuse 2 or 3 talented players on each side of the ball and we can play with anybody. And we don't need an Adrian Peterson or Patrick Willis either. We can do this with just a Thomas Jones and a.......Matt Roth! However, I believe a Mangini/Holmgren war-room duo can produce excellent results. If Holmgren is going to be involved that is.
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Certainly different fans have their different takes on many of Mangnini's moves.... was his handling of the QB situation "Mangenius" (or "Mangenious" as some like to spell it) or "MangIdiot"... Same with his earlier decision not to start Harrison at RB... decision to have rookies take a mandotory volunatary bus ride to CT while he hopped a flight etc etc...
Holmgren will look at those issues but I think the deciding factor for Mangini is the Kokinis issue
Mangini hand-picked Kokinis and there seems to be some disagreement over whether Kokinis truly WAS the GM.
It seems apparent that Mangini wanted full and complete control as the coach and defacto GM with all final decisions resting with him and not the GM.
NOW - with Holmgren as President and a yet to be named GM coming in, does Holmgren think that Mangini will suddenly willingly submit to TWO people with final say over him? Or will Holmgren recognize that Mangini's desire to have all the power and control might not fit with a new regime that is going to do things differently, with a true GM and Team President with authority over the coach?
That may be the deciding factor against Mangini.
Certainly different fans have their different takes on many of Mangnini's moves.... was his handling of the QB situation "Mangenius" (or "Mangenious" as some like to spell it) or "MangIdiot"... Same with his earlier decision not to start Harrison at RB... decision to have rookies take a mandotory volunatary bus ride to CT while he hopped a flight etc etc...
Holmgren will look at those issues but I think the deciding factor for Mangini is the Kokinis issue
Mangini hand-picked Kokinis and there seems to be some disagreement over whether Kokinis truly WAS the GM.
It seems apparent that Mangini wanted full and complete control as the coach and defacto GM with all final decisions resting with him and not the GM.
NOW - with Holmgren as President and a yet to be named GM coming in, does Holmgren think that Mangini will suddenly willingly submit to TWO people with final say over him? Or will Holmgren recognize that Mangini's desire to have all the power and control might not fit with a new regime that is going to do things differently, with a true GM and Team President with authority over the coach?
That may be the deciding factor against Mangini.
You're acting like Mangini has never worked for anybody before. Yes he had complete control this year but that was necessary. Now, he has the culture and attitude changed here and he can concentrate on coaching. The job no longer requires full control. So, I don't see him working for Holmgren being a problem. I mean, the guy worked under Parcells!! Not to mention that Mangini has shown that he respects and admires intelligent football people. Holmgren should fit that mold perfectly. This shouldn't be a problem at all. However, if Mangini shits the bed next year, you'll see Holmgren coaching once he gets his front office in capable hands.
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Certainly different fans have their different takes on many of Mangnini's moves.... was his handling of the QB situation "Mangenius" (or "Mangenious" as some like to spell it) or "MangIdiot"... Same with his earlier decision not to start Harrison at RB... decision to have rookies take a mandotory volunatary bus ride to CT while he hopped a flight etc etc...
Holmgren will look at those issues but I think the deciding factor for Mangini is the Kokinis issue
Mangini hand-picked Kokinis and there seems to be some disagreement over whether Kokinis truly WAS the GM.
It seems apparent that Mangini wanted full and complete control as the coach and defacto GM with all final decisions resting with him and not the GM.
NOW - with Holmgren as President and a yet to be named GM coming in, does Holmgren think that Mangini will suddenly willingly submit to TWO people with final say over him? Or will Holmgren recognize that Mangini's desire to have all the power and control might not fit with a new regime that is going to do things differently, with a true GM and Team President with authority over the coach?
That may be the deciding factor against Mangini.
You're acting like Mangini has never worked for anybody before. Yes he had complete control this year but that was necessary. Now, he has the culture and attitude changed here and he can concentrate on coaching. The job no longer requires full control. So, I don't see him working for Holmgren being a problem. I mean, the guy worked under Parcells!! Not to mention that Mangini has shown that he respects and admires intelligent football people. Holmgren should fit that mold perfectly. This shouldn't be a problem at all. However, if Mangini shits the bed next year, you'll see Holmgren coaching once he gets his front office in capable hands.
You're acting like Mangini has never worked for anybody before. Yes he had complete control this year but that was necessary. Now, he has the culture and attitude changed here and he can concentrate on coaching. The job no longer requires full control. So, I don't see him working for Holmgren being a problem. I mean, the guy worked under Parcells!! Not to mention that Mangini has shown that he respects and admires intelligent football people. Holmgren should fit that mold perfectly. This shouldn't be a problem at all. However, if Mangini shits the bed next year, you'll see Holmgren coaching once he gets his front office in capable hands.
Mangini might actually want to hope that Holmgren doesn't look too closely at his last 2 employers. He was of course fired from the Jets and before that, demoted by Belichick, who took Mangini's play calling rights away from him but let him keep the title "Defensive Coordinator"
But I don't think Kokinis would agree that Mangini was "forced" to be the GM... he took the job even though Kokinis feels he was duped when they told him (and the Ravens) that he would have authority as the GM. Most think that was Mangini's intent all along, don't they?
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You're acting like Mangini has never worked for anybody before. Yes he had complete control this year but that was necessary. Now, he has the culture and attitude changed here and he can concentrate on coaching. The job no longer requires full control. So, I don't see him working for Holmgren being a problem. I mean, the guy worked under Parcells!! Not to mention that Mangini has shown that he respects and admires intelligent football people. Holmgren should fit that mold perfectly. This shouldn't be a problem at all. However, if Mangini shits the bed next year, you'll see Holmgren coaching once he gets his front office in capable hands.
Mangini might actually want to hope that Holmgren doesn't look too closely at his last 2 employers. He was of course fired from the Jets and before that, demoted by Belichick, who took Mangini's play calling rights away from him but let him keep the title "Defensive Coordinator"
But I don't think Kokinis would agree that Mangini was "forced" to be the GM... he took the job even though Kokinis feels he was duped when they told him (and the Ravens) that he would have authority as the GM. Most think that was Mangini's intent all along, don't they?
Mangini might actually want to hope that Holmgren doesn't look too closely at his last 2 employers. He was of course fired from the Jets and before that, demoted by Belichick, who took Mangini's play calling rights away from him but let him keep the title "Defensive Coordinator"
But I don't think Kokinis would agree that Mangini was "forced" to be the GM... he took the job even though Kokinis feels he was duped when they told him (and the Ravens) that he would have authority as the GM. Most think that was Mangini's intent all along, don't they?
He was never demoted by Belichik. If he was, do you think anyone would have looked at him as a serious head coacing subject?
He was fired by the Jets because of Favre's implosion due to a covered up injury.
Who cares about Kokinis? Since his firing we've made our best FA moves (Roth, Moore, Benard) so I doubt he was contributing much.
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Mangini might actually want to hope that Holmgren doesn't look too closely at his last 2 employers. He was of course fired from the Jets and before that, demoted by Belichick, who took Mangini's play calling rights away from him but let him keep the title "Defensive Coordinator"
But I don't think Kokinis would agree that Mangini was "forced" to be the GM... he took the job even though Kokinis feels he was duped when they told him (and the Ravens) that he would have authority as the GM. Most think that was Mangini's intent all along, don't they?
He was never demoted by Belichik. If he was, do you think anyone would have looked at him as a serious head coacing subject?
He was fired by the Jets because of Favre's implosion due to a covered up injury.
Who cares about Kokinis? Since his firing we've made our best FA moves (Roth, Moore, Benard) so I doubt he was contributing much.
He was never demoted by Belichik. If he was, do you think anyone would have looked at him as a serious head coacing subject?
Because even though he revoked Mangini's play calling Belichcik didn't want to stab Mangini in the back by announcing it to the world - but it's widely known and even acknowledged in articles about the Browns.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/DMN-Ko...d-a-chance.html
The Secret,” for all his lack of communication skills, apparently can sell himself. He sold the Jets and his good friend, general manager Mike Tannenbaum, on the fact he was a bright young coordinator and a budding star when the reality was, at the time, Mangini was removed from his defensive coordinator responsibilities while he was in New England.
The Patriots under Mangini in 2005 gave up too many big plays down the field and were so poorly synchronized that head coach Bill Belichick was forced to take over the defense in mid-stream. Every time Mangini was given more responsibility in New England, he was not successful. Conversely, every time Josh McDaniels’ role was increased, he kept getting more and more successful. However, in spite of Mangini’s bad year, he was rewarded with a head coaching job based on Tannenbaum’s recommendation.
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Certainly different fans have their different takes on many of Mangnini's moves.... was his handling of the QB situation "Mangenius" (or "Mangenious" as some like to spell it) or "MangIdiot"... Same with his earlier decision not to start Harrison at RB... decision to have rookies take a mandotory volunatary bus ride to CT while he hopped a flight etc etc...
Holmgren will look at those issues but I think the deciding factor for Mangini is the Kokinis issue
Mangini hand-picked Kokinis and there seems to be some disagreement over whether Kokinis truly WAS the GM.
It seems apparent that Mangini wanted full and complete control as the coach and defacto GM with all final decisions resting with him and not the GM.
NOW - with Holmgren as President and a yet to be named GM coming in, does Holmgren think that Mangini will suddenly willingly submit to TWO people with final say over him? Or will Holmgren recognize that Mangini's desire to have all the power and control might not fit with a new regime that is going to do things differently, with a true GM and Team President with authority over the coach?
That may be the deciding factor against Mangini.
Certainly different fans have their different takes on many of Mangnini's moves.... was his handling of the QB situation "Mangenius"
You act like a BAD QB situation was invented 1 second after the ink dried on Mangini's new contract. What's your REAL beef with Mangini?
Seriously, if things had been done RIGHT with the QB situation - there's no need to discuss Mangini or even Holmgren right about now.
What was SOOOOOOOOOOO wrong in letting sufficient pre-season games with the SAME reps with the #1 unit give him a betetr apples to apples than our negative media? The media WANTED Quinn to be named starter without the Head Coach seeing who was best for his offense.
I have to be completely honest - I was so sick of seeing regression from DA since November 1st of 2007 - that I was chomping at the bits for HOPE via Quinn. There's a reason I wear sweats on Sundays and hold Beer Pretzels and cold beers while Mangini wears Superbowl rings, headphones and clipboards. As it played out for the coach that inherited our QB nightmare, he went with what he prolly felt was the lesser of 2 evils. In hind sight, Quinn was SOOOO bad with his first 3-4 starts - it was COMFORTING to know that DA got as many preseason reps with the 1st unit as he did. Unfortunately for us AND Mangini - DA played like the DA we couldn't wait to replace. Meaning? He got replaced again and the combination of 32% completion rates and another season ending injury to Quinn means Mangini was WRONG to determine both QBs needed the same number of pre-season reps? Says WHO? Let me guess - you, Pluto and Jupiter.
Take a hike squirt breath!
- Tom F. (Let the record show ANY time Mangini had a decent startign QB in his career, he has gone 9-7 or 10-6. Let ANOTHER record show when BB had an over-the-hill Bledsoe he was winless and won a Superbowl that same season with Brady - just sayin...)
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You act like a BAD QB situation was invented 1 second after the ink dried on Mangini's new contract. What's your REAL beef with Mangini?
He is a Pat's fan and is mad mangini called out Billy for cheating...or at the minimum, bending the rules a little too far.
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