@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Do you want fair criticism? He's a body beautiful DE who questionably fits a 3-4, takes more than his fair share of plays off, and has a rather poor work ethic. He's purely a project player - much like our first round pick.

For a team that is supposedly revolutionizing the way their front office works, they are basically repeating the same garbage past regimes have done.

On their own, not terrible picks. But with what was currently on the board, very questionable draft board management. And IF those guys were truly at the top of their board, then that speaks to the fact that this scouting department is rating pure athleticism over anything else.

But because nobody can shit talk the Browns without being some type of "moron" - this will get diluted down to "fucking pussy boo hoo".

I don't know where the taking plays off criticism comes from, but I watched almost every OSU game last year and I regularly saw Ogbah chasing WRs, RBs, and TEs down after the lbs and DBs whiffed on tackles. That defense wasn't very good. Other than Peterson and Lampkin he had nothing around him. If you watch their games you will see a few games where he just dominates the competition.

Edit: I'm a Lions fan and I would of been happy if Lions picked him at 16. If Browns use him as a 4-3 DE he'll play well. He never played in coverage or out of a two point stance in College however.

Ogbah is the best 4-3 pass rushing DE in the draft. The problem is Browns play a 3-4. This is why this pick is confusing. As fare as the Ole Miss game well go watch the TCU game he absolutely dominated. He's a heck of a player.

I dont buy that they fired Chud, becaus the team didn't improve. I told you'll after the Trich debacle that Banner and Lombardi were trash and hated by the players. Remember Dimitri Pattersons words when the Browns hired Banner? Other players asked about Banner and he told them, "he's a snake don't trust him" If your a free agent would you wan't to play for this organization? or if your a top coaching candidate would you take the job? Especially if you can't hire your own coordinators even.

All you guys complaining about the roughing the passer penalty listen up. That gets called 100% of the time you know why? HE LEFT HIS FEET. Roughing the passer isnt just taking to many steps and hitting the qb anymore. He did two things that are considered roughing on the play. The major one is he left his feet, the other one was that he drove him to the ground even though he let go in midair he was driving him towards the ground. If Suh did that to Weeden would have been a flag plus suspension.

Rumors about the Browns trying to trade Gordon were surfacing before the Lions started shopping for a wr. TBH I doubt Detroit trades for anyone. Because of the Burleson injury people started to throw crap out there that theyre looking to trade for Gordon.

Look at wr trades. Marshall fetched a 2nd, Boldin a 4th. Gordon will get a 3rd tops. They may throw in Leshourse also. Whoeve said a 3rd for Little knows nothing about football. He would get 5-7th at most. No way Stafford, CJ or Suh would be traded for Gordon. You have to look at it like real life not Madden 25. Gordon is one dirty urine from a year suspension. Their is no maybes about it. He drops dirty its a year. This new fo is terrible wouldnt suprise me if they traded Gordon.

"I've yet to hear anyone make a compelling argument as to why trading Richardson was a bad thing" The biggest reason is that it has made a small divide between management and the players in to a gaping canyon. The players don't like Banner, they were warned by Patterson not to trust him now they see why. Locker rooms lost 2 gms into their tenure. in 3 years new gm, coach, ceo. Same old Browns.

Norv Turner offense is based on long passes. Yet the online can't pass block so plays cant develop. Your facing constant pressure so where's the screens to the rb, te, or wr's? How about a draw play? My point with Benjamin is you move him around instead of playing out wide not being to get off the line. Look at Calvin Johnson he plays slot,x,y hes also lined up in the backfield. Get Benjamin on a lb create a mismatch. The Browns d has been decent for a few years, but they would lose games 13-6 because no offense. Its the same now. Their was a need at wr regardless if he was suspended or not. The Browns suffer from not having playmakers on offense. This offseason they didnt address it in the draft or fa. Who drafted that young TE? Not Banner so they dont get credit for that. They did nothing in first offseason. The team is still bad on offense. Yes after one year im discouraged by this front office. It doesnt take 3 years to build a winner is evident by a few teams every season. You traded the #3 pick for what will be a middle or late 1st rd pick. Roy Williams the wr got traded for a 1st, 3rd and 5th. Not impressed. Wasnt impressed with Holmgren either. Browns won 5 last year I expect an improvement over that. Also more picks are just that more picks. Doesnt mean they'll be good picks. I surely wouldnt trust Lombardi to make them. And Patterson being on multiple teams has nothing to do with his credibility. He made the remarks before he was released. Chud didnt have to say he was mad about the Richardson trade he could have simply said it was out of his hands. Also NFL network has access to players, personel for the Browns they have no reason to talk about it if their isnt something there. In only 2 games they have alienated the locker room. They are doomed to fail.

Exactly my point on Benjamin you have to get him the ball in space and let him make plays. Line him up in the backfield, reverses. The offense has veen bad for years yet this F.O. did nothing to address it in the offseason. Thus to me they have no credibilty. If Trich goes off this year will all of you still be apologists for this front office? These were bad hires by Haslem. He should have brought in someone to help him hire a CEO and GM.

Some people on here are straight homers for the Browns. They refuse to see anything negative about the organization at all. Banner and Lombardi arent going to build a winner. They had this offseason to build something. Chud is suppose to be an offensive minded coach yet the offense is the same it has been the past how many seasons. They knew that Gordon was suspended for 2 gms and they didnt get any sort of wr help. You have Benjamin they dont utilize him at all. Hes fast and good in space. Yet no wr screens no attempt to get him the ball and let him run. The oline was suspect and they didnt bring anyone in to help. Weeden got abused for 2 gms and hes taking the blame. Banner said the franchise qb might be on the team already. He was refering to Hoyer the guy who is on his 4th team in 5 years. We know Lombardi likes him guess Banner does to. So basically he admitted the Richardson trade wasnt about getting a qb. D'qwell and Thomas are upset about the trade of course theyre not going to trash the team publicly. NFL radio had a 1 hr segment about the trade and how the Browns players dont like Banner and Lombardi and how Browns are a mess of an organization. Banner threw Chud under the bus by saying he was on board so now the players cant go to him about it. At least he could of smoothed it over by saying it was the fo guys who did it. Thsi didnt start with the Richardson trade. It started last yr when Banner was hired. Patterson was familar with him and players turned to him to find out what Banner was like. He told them he was a snake and dont trust him. Richardson was complaining about the game planning and bam now hes gone like Patterson. And they cant take credit for the defense. Most of the players were from before they were there. So tell me in one offseason what have they done? How many starters did they draft?

Like I posted in another thread Emitt Smith, Bettis, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, Thurman Thomas didnt sniff 4.0ypc their first year. Hell Faulk avg 3.0ypc his 3rd season. Ypc is overblown. How many goaline and short yardage carries did Trent have? Trent is getting the blame because this FO failed to get players that could run block, get any weapons at wr to help the qb and take attention away from Trent. They also failed to put a winning team on the field. None of which was Trents fault. Dont give me a gm, coach needs 3 years b.s. That doesnt happen in the NFL anymore. And this is not about a qb either. Trent complained about the game planning so he was dealt. Simple, End of story. They will lose the locker room and in 2 years Browns will do it all over again. New coach, New gm all of it.

Gft you coukd have done that and kept TRich. Also the major issue is the players in the locker room quitting on the coach,fo that quit on them after 2 games. Not to mention Paterson was telling players not to trust Banner and now they see why.

Tour sorry I wasnt clear. What I meant is you said none of what I said effected if they draft a qb or not. My point is the Richardson trade doesnt effect if they draft a qb either. If your at #5 and say the Indy pick is #18. You think a team that also needs a franchise qb i.e Jax trades down to 5 for the #17 pick? I doubt it. They cant be that dumb to be crossing their fingers a tm will trade with them to get a qb. So my point is im not buying the qb thing at all.

Lombardi said last year before he was with the Browns. If someone needs a qb sign Hoyer. What im saying doesnt effect if they draft a qb, but neither did trading Richardson. If Hoyer goes out and wins 5 games and Browns get 5th pick. Do they still get the franchise qb? If your sitting behind Jax, Oak, Tb, and Min do you still get the franchise qb? This trade had no effect on the Browns getting a franchise qb. This fo, coach are giving up basically after 2 games. The players arent going to play hard for someone who quit on them after 2 games. The trade wasnt about a qb. It was about Trich complaining about the game plan. Same way Patterson was released because he told guys dont trust Banner. Yes its a bussiness but its built on respect. And if the players feel the fo, coaches dont respect them than they already lost the locker room.

I agree that Holmgren wasnt the right hire at the time. I feel the same way about Lombardi, Banner, and Chud. As far as the 10 year thing that isnt true. In reality the 3yrs to build a team doesnt really apply anymore either. If they thought Richardson wasnt the guy. Why not draft a rb this year? Also on NFL radio yesterday they said T-Rich founded out he was traded from a friend than confirmed it by listening to the radio. Things like that dont sit well with players. Especially after Patterson was telling them they cant trust Banner.

It may not have an impact based on Trich producing, but i think its going to have an impact on the locker room. Players will lose trust in the fo and coaches. Especially if the losses keep piling up and if Richardson is succesful in Indy

I also believe they never planned to let Weeden start this year. The plan was to let Hoyer start all along. Two things can happen. Hoyer plays good and they decide they dont need to draft a franchise qb next year. Which makes the TRich trade pointless, or Hoyer is bad and they have to backtrack and name Weeden the starter again.

The comparrisons were just to show the data on TRich is incomplete. I see a lot of people on here saying Richardson was a bust and not elite. That has not been determined. Look at AP last year he carried the Vikings to the playoffs. The AFC North you have to play good defense and run the ball. In Nov and Dec playing outdoors you need a rb. Lombardi has veen saying Hoyer is great before he was Browns GM. He hated the trade up to get Richardson. He made this move because of ego. Fiscally it doesnt make sense. Lions are paying Bush 5mill a yr as a fa rb. So thats kind of the bar for next year fa rbs. Trich was making less than that. This trade doesnt ensure you get your qb next year. If the Browns draft a qb in 2nd or 3rd rd next year does this trade still make sense? The bigger issue is what does this message say to the other players? They already had pattersob saying dont trust Banner. If you play hurt we'll trade you. If you complain about getting the ball and sticking to the ganeplan we'll trade you. You think they trust Banner now? If the fo, coaches lose the team 2 games in your in trouble.

The trade will be bad for the Browns. I was listening to NFL radio and basically D'qwell, and Joe Thomas are upset about this trade. THey are both leaders on the team and you know the locker room is a buzz about it. TRich was well liked and players respected him for playing hurt. Another thing is Dmitiri Patterson has been saying he was cut not because of his play but because he was telling Browns players not to trust Banner. That Banner was a snake. What do you think players are thinking of Banner now? If a Free Agent wants to sign with the Browns you don't think they'll talk to players on the team? Or former Players?

Now as far as TRich's play is concerned, its comparable to other rookie rb's who had good careers. You can't judge a player on 18 gms. Especially a rb. Lets look at some numbers of other backs in first 18gms.

First TRich's numbers

Last year 267 att 950yrds 3.6ypc 11tds 51 rec 367yrds 1td

Emmit Smith

1990 241att 937yrds 3.9ypc 11td 24rec 228yrds 0tds

1991 led NFL in rushing

Rickey WIlliams

1999 253att 884yrds 3.5ypc 2tds 28rec 172yrds 0tds

2000 first 2 games: 44att 134yrds 3.04ypc 0tds

YPC for a HOF RB his first 3 season 4.1, 3.7, 3.0

That RB was Marshal Faulk

LaDamian Thomilson averaged less than 4.0 ypc in 5 seasons (no they werent all at the end of his career)

Jerome Bettis avg 3.9ypc for his career in 13 seasons he only went over 4.0ypc 4 times and he's a HOF

Walter Payton 1975 196att 679yrds 7tds 33rec 213yrds 0tds

first game of 1976 25att 70 yrds 2.8ypc

So you can't call Trich a bust. You can't judge him on 18 gms. You fit the system to the players not the other way around. TRich was making 2-3mill a yr so he wasn't hurting the bottom line. As far as not being versatile look at his receptions last year he had 51, look at the other rb's listed he had more receptions than any of them as a rookie except faulk had 52. Thomilson, Emmitt, and Rickey Williams all played under Turner before and Smith, and Williams running styles were similar to Trents. This trade was about Lombardi's and Banners ego. So without knowing how TRich will turn out and the trade causing strife with the players they made this trade. This will come back and bite the Browns.