@mudfly said:

No....not really.....I dont know that he is an asset anywhere....thats purely an assumption.....

And, though he is improved from last year, I still see a guy who hasnt reached "base" maturity yet.....so, after rehab, he is still doing the same things he did last year...and only a week or 2 after being benched, he does EXACTLY what he was benched for...(again)...

Nope....I see a guy totally thumbing his nose at the fans(Ill do what I want, when I want).....and at his Coaches and his team.....

And this weeks TMZ 4-loco episode pretty much proves that to me.....100%....he just doesnt give a shit what the team wants and only cares about what HE wants.....sorry, but it's obvious.....

So.....saying the players had hope we would win last week is not "something he brings to the team"......what POSITIVES has he brought to the team.....leadership?.....maturity?.....quality play?.....a winning attitude?.....a strong work ethic?....a willingness to change, grow or mature?.....improved QB play?......more scoring?......what???

"He's showing his leadership capabilities,'' said Whitner.

"If it weren't for (Manziel), we would not have been in the position we were in today,'' said receiver Travis Benjamin (two catches, 20 yards). "He made plays and kept his eyes down field. Sometimes, when he scrambled, he looked like the old Johnny where he would get the first down and keep us in the game."

"It's tough we ran out of time,'' said Barnidge. "He was doing a good job. He was hustling up the plays. You could see the leadership in him. He got everyone going, got the plays called. I don't think we wasted any time.''

Crowell, who rushed for 88 yards on 16 carries, cited Manziel's leadership in the huddle.

"I felt like Johnny was in control,'' he said. "We made some good plays and we made a couple of bad plays. We made a bad play at the wrong time and I feel like that cost us the game."

Of course those are just his teammates and not experts from the internet.

@cdl15 said:

Im not saying Mccown is a savior but its a simple fact he outworked, outplayed, and just simply outclassed John. Like I said no better than Colt McCoy. Kids a loser.

You do realize that the Browns are 1-7 with McCown as a starter and 2-3 with Manziel, right?

@cdl15 said:

usually tho the big runs happen because of the holding calls. If he needs to run to win then he needs to go. the GREATS never needed to run.

The hate is strong with you.

Many great QB's have also been runners. Of course you have to be a passer first but being able to run is an extra tool that can makes passing and even running by the RB's easier. It forces a defense to account for the QB as a run threat and that means one less guy that is either rushing or covering WR's.

As for the competitor comment, of course being a competitor does not make someone a great QB. However if you are not a competitor you will never be a great QB. It's one of many skills any QB needs in the NFL to be highly successful.

Will Manziel be great? No one knows at this point. He has shown flashes and he has talent. He also has shown he has a lot of work to do. That's not unusual for any NFL QB with his level of game experience, much less one who has limited talent around him and a terrible defense. If you make a list of the Top 10 QB's in the league very few of them were better than average in their first 10 starts even if they had talent around them.

@tour2ma said:

Pet would have zero issues with the way Wilson played today.

Pet would have zero issues with JM playing the way Wilson played today.

JM may have better physical tools than Wilson, but Wilson is far better between the ears... and I am talking solely about on the field.

Wilson makes reads and throws with anticipation... and you can note that all you want, but noting ain't doing.

If your argument is that Wilson is a better QB than Manziel today, especially playing with the Seahawks offense and with their defense in support, I don't see anyone disagreeing. If your argument is that Wilson is a more developed QB than Manziel that has a stronger understanding of the game I don't think you will see anyone disagreeing. That's not the point.

The point is can Manziel develop in to Wilson or similar? I would say the potential is absolutely there. Manziel has better physical tools and is a ferocious competitor. What he lacks is experience and talent around him. Wilson has been surrounded by great talent and a great and supportive coach his entire career, something Manziel can't say.

The greater point though is that the problem with the Browns is not the QB position, or at least it is well down the list. The OL is lacking. The defense is terrible. The WR's are mediocre to horrific. The TE is good.

Take the high draft pick and get another high end OL, a pass rushing DE, or a game breaking WR and build around those areas. The worst case is you build a real team around the QB and if Manziel flames out you have a team you can put a QB in to without throwing him to the dogs.

@hoorta said:

Look, you're relatively new here, and I'm not going to start arguing again if Johnny is an alcoholic or not. FWIW, we have a poster here that's a retired drug counselor- who happens to think he is. All that stuff last year, blowing off the Manning's football camp, the money phone, the swan, man I could go on. At the very least he has a drinking problem- because last game of the season Browns security had to haul his hung over ass out of his apartment because they couldn't find him- is the very definition of a drinking problem.

You don't go to 10 weeks worth of rehab and then start hanging out in bars or hang out with a barfly GF. Pettine CLEARLY told him what was expected of him during the bye, he couldn't do it- and then lied about it on top of it. That's pretty telling whatever he got taught in rehab didn't take.

Could Pettine have handled the situation a little more discretely? Probably. Is he a great coach? I have my doubts. But Johnny & Johnny alone created the mess he put himself in. As was pointed out, guys like LeBron and Jeeter go out and have a good time, but they're smart enough to tell everyone to check your cell phones at the door. Maybe JFF should start hanging with LeBron for pointers in that regard- on how to not get plastered all over social media. I don't see Mike blasting other players about activities in their free time- because he doesn't have to.

I agree with a lot of your last point, Johnny has done a poor job of insulating himself from social media. A lot of that is immaturity mixed with being naive and to an extent unlucky. He is essentially being followed everywhere he goes with someone taking his picture or a video with their phone because of who he is. It's very difficult for him to keep a low profile even if that is truly his intent. It's also true Pettine doesn't have to deal with that with other players but the other players don't have anything close to the amount of scrutiny Manziel does. That doesn't make his actions right or wrong but Pettine seems to be very resentful of Manziel's celebrity and that's a problem.

As for the incidents you brought up, once again many of them are things that are hardly uncommon for 22 year old millionaire football players. The difference is every time Johnny crosses the street it is on social media and ESPN wants to make a story about it. Even then you are bringing up stuff like the Manning football camp that happened when he was still in college where he had the audacity to oversleep at a camp where he was a celebrity counselor in the offseason. The money phone was right after he got his signing bonus and spoke more to his immaturity than alcohol. The swan was also in the offseason. No one is arguing that Johnny doesn't like to party and have a good time and needed to calm it down (which even his strongest critics have to admit he has), there is a big step between that and being an alcoholic. None of those issues had any impact on his playing with the Browns, the only real thing there is the missed rehab session after his season was already over last year.

Johnny absolutely screwed up by lying about the video in Austin though we still don't know what really happened there. I find it really bizarre though that Pettine set a rule for Johnny that he wasn't supposed to go to any bars during the bye week, I'm pretty certain he doesn't do that with other players. It's also interesting that he benched him instead of suspending him. The only logical reason being that he couldn't suspend Johnny since he didn't violate his contract or team rules so then the narrative changes to "I hold my QB's to a higher standard than other players".

What's really interesting now is in the PC yesterday Pettine was praising Manziel and his work ethic and talking about how things need to stay in the locker room. This from the guy that has hung Johnny out to dry in the press all year. Johnny has never said an ill word toward Pettine, any teammates, or the Browns organization to any media but for some reason he is an open target by all 3. It's incredibly hypocritical.

@medinadawg said:

And what are you basing your opinion, that he's not an alcoholic, on. That he hasn't been arrested. He blew his entire rookie season by drinking. Didn't put in the time, didn't learn the playbook, because of drinking. Created a spectacle of himself and embarassed the Browns' organization because of drinking. He checked himself into rehab, a rehab center specializing in alcohol and substance abuse, because he's not an alcoholic.. He's risked his entire career to drink. Yeah, everybody does this in a period of a year-and-a-half, happens all the time.

He blew his rookie season on drinking? How exactly? He was at practice. He wasn't drunk at practice. He didn't get arrested or cited. Did he have too much fun partying? Perhaps, but every time he so much as went to a local watering hole he got an article written about it and most of his partying was in the offseason. He struggled as a rookie for certain, just as most rookies in the NFL do. He certainly had maturity issues but that doesn't make him an alcoholic. It certainly didn't help how poorly Pettine handled the QB competition with Manziel and Hoyer. He clearly was going with Hoyer all along (which was fine as Manziel probably needed to spend a year holding a clipboard) but he managed to divide the team and stoke a hostile relationship amongst his QB's.

@medinadawg said:

Wow, some people just don't get it. Manziel is an alcoholic. Big deal, he never tested positive for drugs, alcohol is his drug of choice!...he's addicted to alcohol. Alcoholism destroys lives, families, careers. I'd much rather see him smoke a joint rather than drink alcohol. He got talent, lot's of it, but brain surgeons with a lot of talent have had their careers destroyed by alcohol. I know a neurosurgeon who's career was destroyed by alcohol. Wake up!....he's not ocassionally hitting a bong, he's out of control with alcohol. Alcoholics, almost always, have to hit rock bottom before they get serious about tackling their disease. Being named a starter, being handed million of dollars is not rock bottom. Alcoholism is a disease! Smoking a joint isn't (not that I would advocate any drug usage). To say it's OK for an alcoholic to go out and have a few drinks is insane. To say it's OK since he hasn't been arrested is frickin' nuts!!! You are out of your mind.

Johnny did go to rehab but how much of that had to do with alcohol is unknown, if anything it seemed to be about changing behavior. Does/did he have an issue? Yes. How severe is another topic. He was never arrested for a DWI or PI. He never showed up to work drunk or failed to perform due to alcohol. He hasn't missed team meetings. That doesn't mean he is problem free but I know a LOT of people that are not alcoholics that can't say any of those things. I also don't know any alcoholics that can say they haven't had those issues. Most of the issues he has had revolve around being an extremely popular and rich single guy that can get into any party and has the world at his feet and not having more people around him to protect him. Going to a club and drinking champaigne does not make you an alcoholic.

Sorry but until he gets arrested or his drinking has a true affect on his performance I think the "alcoholic" rhetoric is very overblown. If anything he appears to have matured a great deal in that regard and he is far calmer than he used to be.

@tour2ma said:

If Johnny has been everything his supporters say he is all along, then Pet has disciplined him for his benefit/growth at a cost to the team and to the detriment of Pet's very job security.

I don't think there is any doubt that Pet's handling of Manziel has contributed to JM's improvement... to his maturation. Call it tough love, if you like, but it got JM's attention. When you deal with aberrant behavior, it sometimes takes negative reinforcement to create an opening. Then it is what you make of that opening.

Even more credit flows to Flip and O'Connell, but remember, Pet hired them.

Typically concise, on-point, bb summary... edited only for space.

... the world does not revolve around Johnny anymore.

If you do nothing else, please work to understand that Pet's issues with bailing out of the pocket come only after missing pass opportunities. It happened repeatedly in the TN game; it happened once we know of (so far) vs. SF.

False choice... and a total lack of understanding of what the "public demotion" was about.

That's one way to look at it. Another is that if he had a coach that would have fully supported him and kept discipline in the locker room instead of berating him in public then maybe Johnny could have won the Browns more football games. That's what his coach did at A&M and he won a Heisman. Manziel was a great QB before he got to Cleveland and he is showing why he can continue to be a great QB when given a chance on the field this year. It just seems that Pettine has been far more concerned about whether or not Johnny has a beer on his off weekend instead of what he has done in games or what his potential is. What other player in the NFL is not allowed to go to a bar? I believe Johnny is by himself in that regard.

You can berate Johnny and call him whatever you like but giving Pettine credit for his success is laughable. Johnny has succeeded in spite of Pettine.

@miktoxic said:

so you have proof that pettine is sabotaging manziel's career by leaking info to the press? i don't think he has to leak shit. they ask him a question and he answers. media: "coach, how are you handling your dumbass QB?" pettine: "as if he were a dumbass",

the guy was handed the manziel deck which i'm sure no one wanted to be dealt but now he is the monster that has held back johnny....

GTFO.

Pettine has never hesitated to criticize Johnny and talk about him personally. He was the one that talked about the "deeper issues" that Johnny has without providing detail. He is the one that talked about how he holds his QB's to a higher standard than all other players. He is the one who speaks vaguely about Johnny's maturity and off the field issues and allowing the press to make up whatever they wanted. Is it so damn hard to say "those are issues between me and Johnny and we are working through them" or just "no comment"? Did Pettine "leak" details or what it someone else in the Browns organization? Have no idea and it doesn't matter. My issue is with what Pettine has done in public.

@miktoxic said:

who here has argued that? point it out to me cuz i'm missing something.

we've heard every possible scenario about manziel from the point from which he was drafted until now by both the manziel tuggers and the manziel haters. nothing new you are bringing to the table with your first 5 posts.

(welcome, btw 🥷 )

There are multiple posts since the game yesterday that are pointing to how Pettine's handling of Manziel has been great and has some bearing on how Manziel has performed. There are also posts about how Pettine cares about Manziel.

Johnny is no saint and he has created many of his own problems. That said, Pettine's choice of using the media to berate Manziel is unprofessional and illogical. Keep things in house and be supportive in public or just don't comment. Johnny for all his immaturity has been able to do that, why is it so hard for his coach? There have never even been leaks from Johnny or his supporters that condone his actions or tell his side of the story. The list of successful NFL QB's that liked to party a bit (or worse) is long and distinguished. Pettine seems to take real issue with the attention that Johnny gets and clearly doesn't like having a guy that is a magnet for attention as his QB. You don't have to be a hermit to be a successful NFL QB.

The issue is that "pretty good QB play" with the talent on the Browns' offense is going to result in a lot of losses, which is exactly what happened. Johnny is a playmaker, that is the catalyst the Browns needed and that is why 2 of the 3 W's came in Johnny's limited starts. In Johnny's 2 losses he also played pretty well and was plagued by drops from receivers, no run game, and a defense that was giving up a ton of points. Between those 2 losses he threw for 550+, 2 TD's and 1 pick. For the season he is completing over 60% with 6 TD's and 3 picks. That doesn't account for his ability to run which Pettine has clearly discouraged all year.

Pettine doesn't give a damn about Johnny the person and that is patently obvious. If he did then he wouldn't berate him in the press and throw him under the bus constantly while clearly encouraging others to join in on the fun. If he cared about him he would support him publicly and keep any discipline he had in mind in the locker room, that's what a professional does. Johnny's teammates have praised him this year but Pettine has stayed critical. Fortunately for Johnny he is confident enough in himself to deal with it but a lot of others would have crumbled having their HC regularly humiliate them with the press.

If you don't like Johnny and think Pettine is great, fine, I can understand that. Just don't try to come up with some BS that Pettine's "tough love" of Johnny is why he is successful. The truth is that if Pettine had managed Johnny differently the Browns probably have 3 more wins right now. Johnny has clearly been successful in spite of Pettine and not because of him. You can almost feel Pettine still cringe every time Johnny goes out of the pocket and makes a play because it doesn't fit within Pettine's ideal of QB's that stand like a statue waiting to be pummeled behind the lack of an OL and running game.

So now it is because of Pettine that Manziel is having success? How about when Manziel tore it up against Tennessee and then Pettine promptly benched him to start a 7 game losing streak?

Is Manziel to blame for much of his "drama"? Absolutley, but Pettine has poured gasoline on the fire at every opportunity. So much is made of "off field issues" and "drama" with Manziel but here are a few facts. Since joining the Browns Manziel has never tested positive for drugs. He has never been arrested. He has never missed a team meeting. The worst thing he has done is miss a rehab session after his season was over last year. This year especially Manziel hasn't really done anything wrong. The only 2 issues have been the non story traffic stop with his girlfriend which he was clearly sober and in control based on the video and he was not even given a ticket and the fact he had the audacity to go out of town on his bye week and have a drink at a bar. He didn't make a fool of himself or miss the charity event the next day but he did go to a bar. Now Johnny did go to rehab and he is a guy that attracts attention and should know he has to keep his nose extra clean but a lot of folks seem to forget that he should also be preparing for a bowl game as a Senior in college right now. One thing Johnny also gets zero credit for is he has never been reported to be divisive in the locker room and he has never said anything critical or Pettine, his teammates, or the Browns organization to the media and he damn well has had just cause to do so.

What has Pettine done? At every opportunity he has thrown Manziel under the bus. The things he has said about Manziel to the media are ridiculous and unprofessional. He has never liked or supported Manziel and he has made sure EVERYONE knows it. Every time Manziel does something positive he dismisses it and every time he does something negative he almost seems to revel in it. The signature moment being during halftime of the Bengals game when immediately after Johnny led the team to its longest TD drive of the season he chose to rail against how Johnny was getting out of the pocket too much only to hear the opposing coach agree that their biggest concern was also making sure Johnny stayed in the pocket. Pettine has treated Johnny like a child and created a set of rules far harsher for him than any other player. At times he has seemed more intent on teaching Manziel a lesson than winning football games. Let's also not forget that Pettine clearly had an existing relationship with Hoyer last year and allowed Hoyer to bash Johnny both personally and through is lackey Cabot all of last season, great leadership there. Pettine is trying to make Johnny into a traditional pocket passer that doesn't run and shows no emotion. The problem is that sacrifices most of Manziel's strengths but even moreso the Browns simply aren't build for that. The OL, RB's, and WR's and mediocre at best and having a traditional pocket passer who is essentially managing the game isn't going to be very successful in that scenario.

Manziel is a guy that needs a mentor. He needs someone he can trust that will help to guide him and believes in him. He needs someone who understands how to emphasize his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses. Design an offense that flows for him not against him. You saw some signs of that this week with a shotgun based offense that allowed for Johnny to see the field and have space to operate. The next step is getting the receivers to work with him to extend plays and the OLine to keep blocking until the whistle blows. With Johnny you never know when he will make a play out of nothing. You also have to realize he will make some mistakes, just as all young QB's do. Don't make him so concerned about making a mistake that he can't get comfortable. Manziel is a leader and a guy that people love to play with because of his fire and passion, don't try to make him something he isn't.

If the Browns really want to succeed they should build around Manziel and give him some weapons to work with. Get him a coach that isn't an old school hardass but can teach Johnny how to still have fun and be a successful QB by nurturing him. If that isn't what they want to do then trade him and go get another traditional NFL QB who is focused on not making mistakes instead of making plays, there are no shortage of them.

I think it is a positive that Johnny will have to compete for the job, I also think he will win. Johnny was a significant underdog to win the starting job at A&M over a pretty solid QB named Jameill Showers that eventually transferred out. There was a lot of skepticism about him until the 2nd quarter of Game 2 against SMU, then all of a sudden we met JFF and saw how he could put points on the scoreboard so fast it took your breath away. It got to the point that if he was out there you expected him to lead the team to a TD on every drive. He has no fear and his competitiveness is unmatched.

This is my favorite Manziel play. They were lined up in the WildDawg with Johnny at WR as a trick play. The RB tried to reach across the EZ and fumbled. As it turned out the play was ruled dead but Johnny didn't care. This is what he did.

This thread needs a Johnny highlight video. This is your newest Brown.

New here as well, I can tell you that the number of Brown's fans in Texas has exploded in the last 12 hours.

A few things on Johnny as someone that has watched him since HS, most of which people don't realize:

He is very smart. Johnny had the highest Wonderlic score of the prospect QB's and he was in A&M's highly ranked B School prior to his Heisman with a high GPA. This isn't some athlete that just gets it done on physical skills, he learns quickly and is a student of the game.

Every year Johnny has become less of a freewheeler. In HS his offense was basically "give the ball to Johnny and let him improvise" and he took a team with virtually nothing around him deep in the playoffs until they lost to the eventual state champs in a shootout. He started that way at A&M but after working with George Whitfield after his RS year he has become much stronger fundamentally and less of a runner every year.

He's barely 21 years old. He is not a finished product by any means.

He's a great team guy. All of his teammates love him and would take a bullet for him. He is in early and out late and is obsessed with football and winning. He ALWAYS credits his teammates and pumps them up. The media talks about him but Johnny doesn't, notice after he was picked last night he wanted to talk about his teammates that were picked before him and how happy he was for them.

He is probably the most confident person on the face of the planet. Many think he must be cocky but in reality he is just very comfortable in his own skin and very confident in his abilities. He does his thing and he isn't doing it to impress others, he just does what he wants. Still at the same time he is surprisingly humble and he understands that football is still a game. I've never seen anyone quite like him, he is truly one of a kind in terms of personality.

He has a deep affection for kids, especially sick or disabled kids. He wears a "Charley's Angels" bracelet for a kid with cancer that went to the draft with him (he is the one he was hugging in the maroon Aggie shirt as he walked off). He got to know Charley before he even had the starting job at A&M as well so it isn't a show.

Everyone watches the highlights of his crazy plays but he actually stays in the pocket and slices up offenses most of the time. He actually had the best pocket completion % of any FBS QB last year at over 70%. He just also can throw really well on the run and puts immense pressure on a defense because they can never know what he might do.

Johnny was a legit prospect at baseball as well. What is unusual though is he was a shortstop, not a pitcher like most QB's. That's part of the reason he can make so many off balance throws and can throw against his body so well, it's something he did in baseball all his life.

Despite being under 6' Johnny can do a 360 dunk with a basketball.

The 2 games that most detractors point to for Johnny are the LSU and Missouri games this year. What is less spoken about is Johnny had a fractured thumb he was trying to play through in those games and it greatly affected his accuracy. He broke it hitting a helmet in the Auburn game on a throw in the pocket btw, a freak injury. Trying to keep him off the field though is not easy, he is insanely competitive.

Johnny is more quick than fast and really elusive. He's got good speed but he isn't like RGIII. Johnny seems to have a 6th sense to pressure though and he will absolutely juke people silly. He has incredible balance and is much stronger than most realize. He's hard to hit and the main focus will be more on getting him to not go for the extra yard than anything else. Johnny also has an incredible sense of where his receivers are at all times and he will boggle your mind with how he seems to find a receiver on the other side of the field that he didn't even look that way until he threw the ball. The game just moves at a different speed for him.

The biggest negative on Johnny going to Cleveland imo is he tends to not do as well in bad weather as the LSU and Missouri games this year were also cold and rainy. That said, he also set what was at the time the SEC Total Offense record (which he later broke) in the rain against Arkansas as a Freshman. He will need to adjust some and the groundskeepers in Cleveland need to do all they can to keep the field in top shape.