Zombo said:
Ya, times are tough.
We traded two first rounders for a WR, then our coach quit, our quarterback retired, and a Chinese woman now makes all the big decisions.
Oh wait ... that's Buffalo.
Zombo
--has Rex sneaked into her shoes closet yet?
Man i love the trade topic, but I think I will refrain pointing anything out. At least till I see more.
Not sure who Brady ball sack is, but anyone who calls Zombo on his BS is a good man.
I understand it was a different game back then. I understand that he threw for more yards then they did back then. I just cannot get behind it.
Sure he had a ton of charisma, and flamboyance, but that to me isn't reason enough to make it into the hall of fame. That honor is reserved for the best players ever to play professional football.
These are some of his highlights, or lowlights of his career in 13 seasons.
1. Only exceeded 50% comp percent 6 times.
2. Only completed 6 seasons fully, although a couple he had 12, 13 games
3. Only 3x passed 3k yard, 1 of which was 4k yards. Only surpassed 2500 yards 6x including the 2 3k seasons and 4k season.
4. Only surpassed 19 touchdowns 6x.
5. Never threw less than 17 picks if he played more then 10 games. Only achieved less than 10 in 2 seasons where he got hurt, and played in less than 6 games. Even then he threw at least 5 in those seasons.
6. Had 9x where he threw 15+ picks and some of those seasons he only play 12+ games with a maximum of 14.
By comparison Fran Tarkenton important highlights:
1. Played 18 years. Only 1 season of less then 13 games.
2. in 14 of his 18 seasons he threw for more than 2500 yards. 2 of the seasons he failed to meet this, he was injured and play 10 games or less in each.
3. He surpassed 17 picks in a season only 4 times. 7 seasons he had 12 picks or less.
4. Failed to reach 50% passing in only 1 season, and had at least 55% in 12 seasons. 5 of which were 60%+
5. 14 seasons of at least 17 td passes ranging up to 29 along that span.
6. finished with career totals of a whopping 47000 yards passing 342 TDs, vs. 266 Ints. And a 57% career completion rate.
To me that is a hall of fame career in that day and age. I just don't see it with Namath. I accept he is in, and I am sure he is deserving for some reason. For me as far as a player goes, he didn't deserve it. Maybe his personality and flash had big draws for football, or something.
This is an easy case because 10% more yardage and 20+% more TD passes are not "slight" advantages. Other points in Moon's favor include his CFL resume and esthetics... Warren threw the prettiest ball I can remember seeing.
Let's face it too: Moon is black and they wanted to get a black QB in there....fair to say? And I don't have a problem with that.....though I might have chosen Randall Cunningham over Moon (if race was the important criteria.)
Thomas made it in his second year of eligibility. I think 2015 was James' second... just may take him a little longer. Why? Perceived importance to their teams? Relative strength of their hall ballots?
I also think......to refute cbbacker....that James was NOT on the 2006 Colts team that won the Super Bowl. The year after he left...they win. Some may see that as a negative on his career.......because yes, I do believe postseason performance matters to HOF voters.
I don't believe I said he was on the team, but as far as I am concerened if Namath can get in, it should be an open house. I never saw him play, but as much as how someone plays shows whether or not they deserve to be in the hof. Stats sadly are the best measure, and his stats were horrible for a career. The below average qb's of today match his average stats. The good qb's of today have half his picks and nearly 10% more completion percent. By that standard they should all make the hall.
Hey Gip I am about to talk football.
I have never been a fan of people who say championships should determine hall of fame, or greatest player. Championships are not won by a single person, and shouldh't have any bearing on whether someone makes the hall in their respective sports. Dan Marino is one of the best ever, but people hang the fact he has no Superbowls as a negative. He wasn't the only person out there. There were 21 others. Post season shouldn't matter.
All 4 of the players you named deserve it. But If I had to pick, I pick Moon, and Thomas. Why? Yep because they made the post season more. Even I cannot deny that logic, I just disagree with it.
Feel free to ignore this since it's only partially on topic, but why is Joe Namath a hall of famer?
By any mark this is a sub par career. I am not debating, I really want to know why someone with 50 more picks then TD and only barely over 50% completion is in the hall of fame? Because he was flashy? Because he made a guarantee to win against a heavily favored Colts team? I don't get it.
i guess you don't know PoG very well...
ultimate browns fan but can get a little hung up on a player or two and go all in when they still are unproven.
although his heart is in the right place it reminds me of being stoned (way back when) and then going to the supermarket and buying everything on the shelf.
Nope don't know PoG very well, just surprising guys who haven't taken a snap for us are considered saviors, I tend to take the wait and see approach. Most good college players are not good pro players, sad fact. Just don't understand why people start talking championships when we haven't even seen what we have yet. Optimism is great, but realistic optimism is much better.
Boy I hope the poster was high on something when he wrote this lol.
Gipson needs to wake up. This is a guy who clearly needs to fire his agent, because that dude is telling him the wrong stuff. There are so many one year wonders in this league it isn't funny. He was tagged with a 2nd round qualifying offer, which basically says "hey give us a 2, and he is yours". If he was a good safety he would have gotten at least a sniff, but he got nothing. Dude needs to wake up and realize that 1 year that he didn't even stay healthy for doesn't mean he should get Ed Reed cash. Hell even if he manages to stay healthy this year, and have a great year I still wouldn't pay him what "he thinks he is worth".
What ever happened to earning your money? Sad how these kids act these days.
About time he signed, hopefully this experience humbled him. No teams went after him even with the crappy 2nd round tender, so it wasn't just the Browns that felt his good year wasn't enough to pay him, 31 other teams also felt he wasn't worth a second round pick as compensation. Hopefully he will go out and prove he is a top safety, and get his money next year.
Glad to hear he is doing better.
Watkins 65 Rec 982 Yards 15.1 YPC 6 TDs vs Gilbert that wasn't even trusted to play and 2 draft choices. So it's a very solid #1 NFL WR vs a DB that the coaches hope grows up enough to be a starter and two unknowns, but I guess this is the Browns board so yes it appears the Browns won.
This has been a hot topic with several of them. They weigh and measure based on names, not production. They are putting a ton of weight on guys who haven't played a snap in this league, and a DB that was so demoted he was benched behind a undrafted ROOKIE free agent. But in their view that means he is good. I would recommend just ignoring them and waiting till next year. The Browns board is known to be full of kool-aid drinkers and blind optimism. Realism isn't considered here.
Well we will see. You guys have your opinions, and I have mine I guess. There is an awful lot of Hopes associated with the Browns, but Erving may actually make the trade worth it, but we will see. The sad part is revisionist history will come up next year when I bring up this thread if you are wrong.
I will still take the wildly productive rookie wideout over a bust, and players whom haven't even played a down for us. But I hope Gilbert and friends do make this worth it.
My question is this, when Gilbert failes miserably again, and ibrahiem does what all 4th rounders do, nothing, but Erving turns out to be good, and Watkins is good who wins?
Has to still be Buffalo because we had 3 chances to land great players, and only got 1 good one, the same thing they got in their single pick. The point of trading picks is to land more "good" players. So even if 1 of them turns out to be good, Buffalo still wins because they batted 1.000 for their picks, and we batted .333 for ours.
Well I guess now I have to trade him in my dynasty league while his value is super high. Before the madden curse hits him in the knee or somewhere else.
You know there are not many 6'6 centers in the league. Especially if that little person Johnny M. is playing QB. Could be an issue. cd
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How many centers have you seen playing standing straight up?
Who's taller a 6'6 center bent over to maybe 6'1, or a 6'1 center bent over to maybe 5'9? It's all the same bro. Johnny stands 5'11 on a good day with shoes. Still might be an issue.
Also physics says when two objects collide from diferent directions, they will either stand up, or sink down which is what happens a lot when pass blocking.
You know there are not many 6'6 centers in the league. Especially if that little person Johnny M. is playing QB. Could be an issue.
To bad TP has to much pride. He could have been a great TE with a few years of working at the position. Maybe even a decent WR.
What about when all the other CB's were costing us games, like Skrine, Haden, Petterson ... ? It's a position where you learn by trial and fire. and the fear of failure. A coach can't manage all players the same because different things motivate different people. If he wasn't practicing well, I expect Hayden, Dansby, etc. to call him out. But the coach needs to find what motivates Gilbert and use it to get him on the playing field - he was our number 1 draft choice and a consensus great cover corner.
Actually there were knocks on him as with all prospects coming out of the draft. But the difference between Skrine Haden, and Patterson is that we were never close to 7 wins, much less 7-3. Trial by fire can work, but it can also be very detrimental. Destroying a guys confidence can be more harmful then an injury. I am sure Johnny would agree with that. I just don't think you risk it at a point when you are winning.
Gilbert working out with Haden will be beneficial for more than just the obvious reasons. Justin will see how filthy fucking rich Haden is and say "yeah, I want that"
You know you would think that everybody would be in that position to be honestl. But there are so many dumb asses like Josh Gordon!!
Mudfly, I agree with your analysis. I've already predicted on this board that Justin will be the most improved player on the Browns next year. And while the "not-to-be-coached" ego thing is probably true, I also didn't like the way the coach handled Justine. Put him in the games and let him sink/swim and learn. The headlines in the paper the next day are the way you motivate a JG to improve his skills and learn the craft. There was no need to starts Desir and others over Gilbert towards the end of the season. The Pick-6 was a turning point and should have garnered Justin much more playing time.
Interesting idea, but what if he is costing you games? I mean if we are terrible, say working on a 4-12 season, I can see the sink/swim approach. What if like last year at one point we are 7-3? If he is risking you games do you still leave him in? Hmm tough call i think honestly.
Probably Mayock here, just because i think that sometimes Kiper gets cracked on somewhat by his co-hosts.
