I agree that Mangini deserves a bit more time = though whille I'd prefer just good no nonsense football, if trick plays is what it takes to get wins right now, they can have the tackles throw the ball for all I care.

But it seems like Tony has a short memory... Mangini may have inherited Quinn and Anderson but it was HIS choice as Coach and defacto GM to decide to go with them and not go out and sign a veteran QB - or use the 5th pick on someone, oh, I don't know, like Mark Sanchez.

Personally I would jave liked to have Sanchez as our QB but it was Mangini's choice to give him to the Jets. I think it's only becuase Mangini made the bonehead move of signing Gholston at #6 the year before that he didn't have the 'nads to actually sign a franchise QB when he had the chance at #5.

So I'm not willing to just give Mangini a pass and say that the lack of a QB wasn't his fault. He had an opportunity to improve that position and chose not to.

That being said, Holmgren didn't exactly wow me with how he handled QB either. He could have signed McNabb but chose not to... or traded for Kolb or Vick or done something else to improve QB - and like Mangini chose not to do so. I'm not going to buy into any revisionist history of those who say their plan all along was to grab Colt McCoy - but I do hope we get lucky on that one... God knows we're due for some luck (good luck that is.)

So give Mangini til the end of the season - see if he's improved over a 5 win team. If he hasn't made this at LEAST a mediocre team rather than a bad one after two drafts and two opportunities through free agency and trades, I'd hope Holmgren would look to upgrade the coaching position as well as player positions.

@earl34 said:

I love how guys get registered and lead with "fire the coach". Love it.

Longtime lurker... who can't believe how complacent and "whipped" his fellow Browns fans have become... Mangini = Mediocrity and I'm tired of it... if everyone else feels good about being a mediocre team they're welcome to it, but I felt this Board was growing pretty stale with just a small handful of fans who seem to care enough to post and I finally decided to sign up

@diehardbrownsfan said:

Gruden sucks. Mangenius all the way. Go away troll.

Yes... I understand anyone who doesn't support the current head coach must be considered a "troll" - I've seen it here a few times already...

I'm sure that if Mangini is fired and Gruden is hired many fans will do a 180 degree change to the sentiment you express noting that [current coach] is great and [all other coaches] suck and anyone who doesn't agree is a troll.

That's one of the things that worries me about Browns fans these days.

@earl34 said:

Mangini will not be fired before we play the Jets....if at all. Jon Gruden is owed millions of dollars from the Bucs at least though 2011 and he's perfectly happy NOT coaching from what I understand.

So we want to bring in Gruden, blow up the 3-4 and spend 3 more years "re-tooling" this team?

I don't think it's all that onerous to switch defensive schemes - many of the exiting players in a 3-4 can still play in a 4-3 - and we all know they're not even "complete" right now in the 3-4... there's also a TON of teams playing the 3-4.. that waters down the available personnel and increases demand for quality 3-4 players... getting better players and going with a 4-3 might be a good move overall (I know when it comes to competition for 3-4 players I'm guessing Mangini and the Browns aren't the biggest draw... but playing for Gruden might be a draw for better free agents.)

So its a question of rebuilding around the 3-4 or the rebuilding around the 4-3...

If that's the best argument Mangini or his supporters can make for keeping him around, it's a pretty lame one and I don't think Holmgren would let that stop him from making an upgrade.

It's really just a question of whether Holmgren thinks Gruden would be an upgrade over what could very well be a 1-6 team at the bye... Holmgren, most media talking heads - and an awful lot of fans - would feel he's justified in making a change at the bye in that situation.

If it doesn't happen then but Holmgren is seriously considering a change, he may already know that this team could be 1-14 going into Week 17... and if Mangini should be able to pull a rabit out of his hat and get a win against the Steelers, the massive outpouring of support to keep Mangini and his 2-15 season record for another go round will be pretty significant.

A lot of fans can't quite seem to see the forest through the trees - without his one win against the Steelers last year and the fan support that it brought, I think Gruden might be the head coach as we speak - and I think that would have been a good thing. (I guess for the Browns, sometimes even when we win, we lose! We kept Mangini, and lost out at a shot to grab Bradford or Suh!)

@44calexpress said:

First off, I think any Browns fan that expects a superbowl appearance this year are hopeful-yet-naive in that regard. This team is headed in the right direction, but there are still many pieces missing.

I like the offense, I'm a firm believer that Colt will develop into a good QB (jury is still out as to whether or not he'll be 'great'), I like the offensive line, and Peyton Hillis has a lot of potential; However, this team is missing that explosive runningback that can catch on a whim, and change the pace to confuse the run D. I think someone like Reggie Bush would be perfect this offseason to complement Peyton Hillis in the backfield.

We're also missing a dynamic linebacker and a safety. And lest we forget, a true #1 receiver. AJ Green would be prefect, kind of like how Crabtree can catch just about anything. He'll definitely open things up for Massi and Cribs in the inside.

We need to fill those gaping holes on our team before changing the scheme and make of this team. We'll see how the draft and free agency goes.

With that said, Gruden would be PERFECT for this Browns team. He's got a great relationship with Holmgren, he knows the in-and-outs of the game, he believes in Colt McCoy, and most of all, he LOVES Cleveland as he grew up a Browns fan which is IMO an important variable to any equation.

Oh, and just a note, the Cowboys aren't necessarily targeting Gruden as he's 4th on their list right now (according to Shefter), Cowher is #1 on Charger's list, and i'm pretty sure Cleveland would beat out Buffalo if it were in a two-horse race for Gruden.

I think you misunderstood the "Super Bowl's not happening this season" remark - I'm not saying Magnini shoudl be tossed because he didn't bring a Lombardi this season - I'm saying that if you're going to change and upgrade a position, sooner is better than later.

In this case that position is Head Coach - and if Holmgren thinks Gruden is an upgrade over Mangini - like a lot of people seem to agree with - it makes sense to do it sooner than later for a lot of reasons... #1 Gruden will be in demand - hang the "Help Wanted" sign here before other teams do so and see if you can lock him up

Gruden's not likely to come in immediately (though some think that he's unwelcome in competitng locker rooms already because many have him pegged joining up with Holmgren here... and if he can't do his broadcasting job well he might as well get a head start here...) - but at least it gives us an advtanage in negotiations if Holmgren indeed wants him.

The team's not perfect - lots of missing pieces - and a big question mark at QB (they'll be lucky if McCoy's a keeper - we've seen a lot of backup players show flashes of brilliance and then get cut or traded in the past... I blame Holmgren, not Mangini, for not doing a better job QB shopping this offseason) - but if you have a chance to upgrade you DO IT in my book - and I think Gruden's a big upgrade over Mangini and Daboll - and the time to make the change is with 1 win at the bye - not after 3-4 wins after the season when every other team is thinking about dumping their head coach and competing for Gruden.

I tend to go along with the theory that when you have a chance to grab a player who can upgrade your team you seriously consider it... no offense to Colt McCoy - the kid has potential - but if Phil Rivers were available in free agency I think I'd go out and grab him.

I think one could apply the same philosophy to head coach - if there's a way to upgrade that position - you do it ... and while I actually think there's some decent talent on this team - but I'm pretty "bleh" about Mangini his hand chosen OC Daboll

They seem to play just well enough to make us hope and then consistently lose - it's been quite painful actually.

I think Gruden's going to have a lot of interest around the league... the Cowboys, Chargers, Bills along with the Browns all have records that are placing their jobs in jeaopardy

I know there's a lot of support for Mangini since he beat the Steelers last year but I think Gruden would be a big upgrade - and I think the sooner the Browns position themselves to make a move for him, the better - both to secure the best head coach on the market and to give a head start on next season (call me crazy but I don't see the Super Bowl in the cards this season)

Lots of upside - Holmgren knows and respects him - and vice versa... and Gruden understands Holmgren's system too

Going into the bye, if Mangini just has one win under his belt, that might be all the excuse Holmgren needs to make a change. I'm not thinking Gruden comes in mid-season, but they can go interim coach until the end of the season and then move quickly to wrap up Gruden.

Heck - Lerner didn't waste 2 minutes to lock up Mangini when there was NO ONE else interested in him... with Gruden potentially in demand, it might make sense to lock him up sooner rather than later.

I guess all of this comes down to what Holmgren wants, but if Holmgren is seriously interested in Gruden - and I think he may be, I think coming into the bye with one win under a teams belt is all the excuse he should want or need to make a change. Waiting could hurt their chance to get Gruden, and if Mangini can squeeze out another win or two this season (which I think he can) it could make it more difficult for Holmgren to make a change given the sometimes puzzling fan support of Mangini.