Another Jets fan here.

I've been on this forum before, and was always welcomed well. Thank you for that.

A few things regarding Gordon's case:

1. The test threshold is extremely low, and although an argument can be made that "why is he exposed to marijuana in the first place", it is unfair that a teacher, soldier and police officer can have higher levels and still not test "positive". How does that make any sense?

2. How can the NFL justify punishing one player for being 1 ng/ml over the previous threshold (15 ng/ml), but then someone who has 48 ng/ml gets no punishment under the newly proposed rule?

3. I'm not saying players shouldn't break the law, but Gordon isn't punching women in the face. The DUI is concerning, and he needs to get his life in order - let alone his NFL career. It seems he's on his way with an honest job. Getting his life in order is more important than anything else, but he can't do it alone. Hopefully this entire situation is a wake up call for good.

I always liked the Browns. There have been times where I went out of my way as a Jets fan to watch. Gordon made the Browns extremely fun to watch, as he's easily one of the most entertaining players in the NFL via his play.

@vegasdogg said:

Pick'em

Opponent Network Kickoff Results

Sunday, September 13 vs MINNESOTA VIKINGS FOX 1:00 PM

Sunday, September 20 @ Denver Broncos CBS 4:15 PM

Sunday, September 27 @ Baltimore Ravens CBS 1:00 PM

Sunday, October 4 vs CINCINNATI BENGALS CBS 1:00 PM

Sunday, October 11 @ Buffalo Bills CBS 1:00 PM

Sunday, October 18 @ Pittsburgh Steelers CBS 1:00 PM

Sunday, October 25 vs GREEN BAY PACKERS FOX 1:00 PM

Sunday, November 1 @ Chicago Bears CBS 1:00 PM

Monday, November 16 vs BALTIMORE RAVENS ESPN 8:30 PM

Sunday, November 22 @ Detroit Lions CBS 1:00 PM

Sunday, November 29 @ Cincinnati Bengals CBS 1:00 PM

Sunday, December 6 vs SAN DIEGO CHARGERS CBS 4:05 PM

Thursday, December 10 vs PITTSBURGH STEELERS NFLN 8:20 PM

Sunday, December 20 @ Kansas City Chiefs CBS 1:00 PM

Sunday, December 27 vs OAKLAND RAIDERS CBS 1:00 PM

Sunday, January 3 vs JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS CBS 1:00 PM

These are games the Browns should win, IMO. Green Bay & Chicago both are also not stretches.

I specifically didn't touch the 4 games between Pittsburgh and Baltimore.

I think Cleveland is better than the other 7 (Cincy 2x) teams I bolded. I think if you can split between the 4 games (Bal and Pitt), pick up a conference win against San Diego, and probably give back one of the games I highlighted, the Browns can be 10-6 again. It's possible depending on QB play, and if the defense plays like it can under Mangini's schemes.

But, that's why they play the games.

@sisky-fringo said:

care to make a wager RIP?

over/under @ 6 games?

No way Browns are under 6 games.

@jason-j said:

Those are great shots. But, I think the only thing we're really seeing here is Quinn being a little more deliberate keeping his front hand on the ball. He's following it all the way back into the throwing motion.

If you look at the 1st and 2nd shot, he's going to come straight up from there. And that left hand is protecting the ball until the last possible moment. I'd say, his mechanics have actually improved in the Browns shots. He's better protected. He's in a more athletic position, and he's got that back leg loaded.

That third shot... I don't know. It almost looks like a pump fake. He's sort of leaning to his left... more than would be normal, anyway. But when you look at his hips, you can see he's cleared them already. It's almost as if his target is well off to his left. Like he's going whip throw to a drag route or something. It's really hard to tell from a single frame. Then again, Quinn might do just about anything with pressure in his face. I'm sure he's got a Kent Tekulve slider in there somewhere. (that reference is just to check the ages and memories of various readers).

But if you look at the ND shots, he's a bit to narrow... almost straight up and down. In the second shot, he's got his front hand off the ball before he even moves into his throwing motion. That's a big No No in the NFL. And if you look at the first ND photo, you can see that he's about a third of the way through his motion and his weight is still on his back foot. If that ball goes 40 yards it's going to have re-entry burns coming back down.

Usually, when qb's make the transition to the NFL, it's about compacting their delivery. It looks like Quinn has done this. I'm just going to have to watch for the low-release thing.

-jj

JJ, does Quinn drop back with the ball low and by his waist? A few years back, QBs were doing this, and I remember specifically in NY, where the QB had 20+ fumbles in one season (I forget if it was Eli or Kerry Collins). It was attributed to carrying the ball low and by the waist, the problem was addressed by dropping back in a more "ready" position, and QB fumbles significantly declined after that.

Just food for thought I guess.

@oconrecon said:

And against that competition, the Jets team rankings in the AFC last year:

Total Yards 7th

Pass Yards 8th

Rush Yards 4th

Scoring 3rd

Touchdowns 2nd

This surprised me a bit. 3rd in scoring and 2nd in touchdowns doesn't seem like a recipe for getting fired. If Farve doesn't collapse in those last 6-7 games, then these numbers would have given him top shelf AFC numbers.

There are still a few things he'll do that'll annoy you, but I think the franchise got a significant upgrade at coach. Mangini's good, hopefully the players think so too.

@earl34 said:

Really? Even when they knew the playoffs were lost in week 17? I saw a team hustling to the end. I know that for a first-hand fact.

True, Mangini wasn't perfect but when your QB is throwing all those picks...there aren't too many teams that can win. How many receivers did he miss in Seattle? I counted four beyond twenty yards.

The players even said (Rhodes, Thomas Jones that I remember), that the team was flat towards the end. Favre did have something to do with the split in the locker room, as many of the players loved Pennington, but part of the complaints were against the coaching.

I'm not saying Mangini was bad, because I actually liked him as a coach. He prepares well, he really does, unfortunately he plays against Bill Bellichick in our division, who I'm sorry to say for Brown and Jet fans alike, is a better coach than Mangini was (record 2-5 vs BB). Mangini does come across as flat and stoic.

In the New England game in NE, we were up by double digits, were outcoached in the 2nd half, and we won because of Favre. that was the one game that we weren't going to win if we had anyone else.

I remember a poster on JI (moderator actually) saying "I don't EVER want to hear anything bad about Brett Favre again after tonight."

And then stunk the last 5 games.

@dawgpound3 said:

I agree completely. It's all about the execution and preparing for a game. That's what Romeo could not do well. Well, let's hope that Mangini pans out for us. After all, we can't do no worse than last year unless you are the lions, whom are the exceptions to the rule.

Overall, Mangini prepares well, except in the last 5 games last year. I'll put part of the blame on Favre's poor play, but a lot was coaching, play calling, etc. Schottenheimer also had something to do with this.

@earl34 said:

So what this idiot would have us believe is that Eric Mangini is going to bench Brett Favre? Love him or hate him, no one is benching Brett. That's part of the package. A package, by the way, that was forced on Mangini.

Considering he played the first two years with Jerome "Can't Play Any Gap" Robertson at NT and Jonathan "Take Myself Out of the Play" Vilma....then yes, I'm impressed with his defense. His coordinator was a moron and he wanted Rob Ryan BEFORE his last season in NY but Al Davis wouldn't let him out of his contract.

Here is the key thing that I LOVE about Mangini: He will never waste time outs and he will, on at least 3-4 plays a game, force the other team into some difficult situation by dictating a formation or a tempo. As a result, the other coach will have to burn a time out or take a penalty. THAT is coaching. If you want proof, look to the New England game in NE last year. Belichick got forced into challenging an obviously correct play and he was one step ahead of Belichick all night long.

Against the Raiders, Brett Favre threw a pick with less than two minutes left. Somehow, Mangini managed the game and got the ball back in time to drive for a tying FG.

He also took his team into Tennessee and dealt them their first loss....by a LOT.

Cheer up Cleveland fans....The Jets fans are a JOKE. If the wind changes direction, they want someone fired.

I don't think that's fair, what do we as the fans have to do with the Mangini firing?, yet I will concede in NY there's a lot of pressure to succeed.

Don't kid yourself also, there was a lot that Mangini did to hurt the team. The last 5 games of the season, right after we destroyed Tenn, the team never showed up to play. The only game we won of those 5 was by the grace of God (Jauron called a passing play, and we sacked, stripped the ball and ran it back for a TD).

That's coaching as well.

@dawgpound3 said:

Quite the pessimistic one, eh? What is with you and your negativity. We don't have a bad team. We don't have amazing talent, but we have good talents across the board. We're middle of the road. We're not bad, but we're certainly not great.

Neither were the Patriots in 01, but they had good coaching.

I believe the NFL is a coaches league (better coaches win), unlike basketball where it's a player's league (Let's see Phil Jackson coach Oklahoma City and win a championship without Kobe).

I hope Mangini works out for you guys, and the team gels quickly and is on board with his schemes

@dawgpound3 said:

Yeah, that Giants game makes me proud. Anderson and co bitchslapped the NY giants. Everyone had Giants picked too. Anyway, the loss of JJ had hurt the wide reciever position. If JJ doesn't get staph, we go 10-6. Seriously.

Is that a realistic problem in the locker room in Cleveland, or was Kellen Winslow just opening his mouth for no reason? If it really is a problem, is it taken care of? At my academy it's a continuing problem, and a few guys have gotten mersa and have been hospitalized. I don't know if it was like that or not.

WV, these are awesome. Great work here.

Are the Browns due for new uni's soon?

@inspecta said:

Bull that is my only concern as well.

Does anybody remember that ESPN movie they did on Bear Bryant played by Tom Berenger? I think it was called Junction Boys or something like that. It was basically about how effin' tough he ran his summer camp, and at the end of the movie it recalled the season and Bryant lamented how hard he was on them in the summer because basically they had the shit beat out of them and had nothing left for the actual season.

Coaches can do that sometimes, they think they are making their guys tougher, meaner, stronger but in reality they're just wearing them out. I had a coach like that in high school. He had a thing called pre-practice and would call all the linemen out of the field house way before the rest of the team, and on gamedays he would have us do hitting drills and bull in a ring type shit in the pre game warmups. He was a dumbf*ck to be sure cause we were gased before kickoffs. The head coach basically put a stop to that shit after week 2 of our season when we had 3 guys go down with cramps or other fatigue related injury.

Good analogy. That's what the players talked about after Mangini's first year in New York.

That movie was terrible, however.

@the-gipper said:

Boy, I wish I was as confident as you about how "good" these players are. I have been under the impression their is a distinct void of talent for the most part on the Browns side of the ball. I hope some of these imports and rookie prove you right.

I think there are a lot of good players on the Browns. Listen, 2 years ago you finished 10-6, under Crennel, and accomplished a lot of really good things that year. Unfortunately you didn't make the playoffs, but you were set up for success in 08. Whatever happened in 08, I believe that 07 wasn't an anomaly. I think that overall, the Browns have more talent than the Jets, ESPECIALLY at key positions (QB/WR - NT/DE - OT). Your QB situation alone puts ours to shame, and Mangini will use that and make himself a better coach (he's all about becoming better every year). As I look at your schedule, the travel is not difficult, and if I give you guys an 0-4 against Baltimore and Pittsburgh for the year, I still have you at 8-8. I'm a Browns believer, just from what I've seen the last couple of years.

That Monday night game against the Giants last year was awesome, but the team couldn't recover from the rocky start. Quinn showed signs of being good, but got injured. You had no luck last year, either. sometimes it's about luck, health, and in the case of the Patriots, extra video tapes.

@dan-in-florida said:

Stan, not to get off of the Brady topic but did you see Ratliff throwing? If so, what's your thoughts on him?

Ratliff is actually why I joined the forum.

He has a cannon for an arm, but I also think people made too much of him, expecting him to be the next Jason Garcia (UDFA). With Anderson and Quinn in front of him, he'll be lucky to get snaps in practice, let alone a regular season game.

Hey guys,

I joined the forum last week (or so), just to ask Jet-Browns related questions, but threads like this are so inviting.

Mangini's defense was kind of bland in the beginning in all 3 years in New York. The first 2 years, the blitz packages became more aggressive after the bye week, and last year was slowly eased into it, although our defense took a big blow when Jenkins got hurt (he was way overworked). You have 2 stud DT/NT types in Rodgers and Tuba that can take the pressure off of each other (I stated in another thread, I believe your defensive line is much more capable of being successful in the style of defense that Mangini likes). Yes, he likes his DB blitzes, as evident when Kerry Rhodes had 4 or 5 sacks 2 years ago, and a few others by defensive backs in the same season. Sometimes the defense became slightly "fancy" for lack of a better word, but we really didn't have the personnel to pull it off.

If your defensive line can hold up, you're going to like his defense. If not, be prepared to let up a lot of rushing yards, as the D-Linemen are expected to play 2 gap and let the LBs move to the ball. LBs are expected to contain the ball in front of them, and also asked to drop back into coverage more than the average NFL LB does (this is all how it was in New York, so hopefully for the 09 Browns, Mangini has a much more aggressive scheme). You have good players on the defensive side of the ball, and from an outside view, I'd expect your defense to be able to be in AT LEAST the top half of the league.

I hope this helped a little

@d-qwimbley said:

To answer your question on Ratliff, he has been decent. Not starting material, but better than the 4th QB, Bartel. Unforunately, his best asset (that cannon attached to his right shoulder) is overlooked because DA has a stronger cannon. A lot of his deep passes are wobbly and his short passes tend to wobble at the end, but he's still young and a good #3 QB. Much better than Bartel, again.

Well, it's interesting you say that (cannon), because Pennington's lack of one probably increased Ratliff's stock. Some guys are still wondering about him, and a few even think he'd start over the two guys you have, but these are the homer fans who don't understand football. There's a reason the guy was undrafted. Not to say he can't be a great QB (it happens, right), but he's in a tough situation to succeed in Cleveland.

Aloysius said:

The folks at Football Outsiders made a surprising point about Mangini's offense in New York:

Not sure whether Mangini or Schottenheimer deserves the blame for that. Probably both of them.

You know that's a good way to describe the offensive play callling. I'd say both deserve the blame, we'll find out this year with Schotty staying behind (who knows, maybe Rex will be even MORE conservative on offense).

Mangini is smart (despite what people in NY say). He'll figure out the offense.

The 09 Browns are set up for success, IMO. Winning a couple of key divisional games will set the pace (week 3 & 6 both on the road - that's tough). 7 of the first 11 games on the road, to include Pitt, & Bal, but the schedule is not unbearable. A lot of games are within driving distance. I think this is a huge factor for NFL teams. We went to the west coast 4 times last year (from NY), and lost every game.

Thanks guys.

I love football, so I love all things football. There are a bunch of Jets fans who were upset to see Ratliff go, but maybe Sanchez will work out, not to get into that now.

Mangini.

The guy is smart, disciplined, and hard working. He knows x's and o's of football, but is very conservative in his approach. In every season, it took a while before blitz schemes were being used consistently, and in games where they were used we were effective (i.e. vs Pittsburgh, New England, etc.). He loves players who are good all round people, and often overlooks talent for character. That's fine in college, but in the NFL, guys like Terrell Suggs are much better than, oh, say, Bryan Thomas. Who?

In the 3 seasons that he was the head coach, he had 3 different approaches to the season. Heavily involved in free agency, not at all, moving all over the place in the draft, you name it. I'm not sure I like what he's done with this team (2009 Browns) up to this point. I do think your camp is going well, better than at least 2 of the camps when he was in NY, and probably the 3rd. I do know however that in 2006 when he had an extremely difficult training camp, our team was very resilient and always prepared during the season. Players complained of being tired, but I think that was just to make next year's camp easier. The last 2 seasons had very slower pace training camps.

Expect your defense to be improved. He heavily relies on the defensive line to allow linebackers to move. Your defensive line is better overall than ours (my opinion, of course), and the nose tackle position is key here. Rodgers and Rubin are perfect. Mosely can also play interior well, and has a good motor. Coleman is solid against the run (don't expect too much pressure from him on the QB). Then behind these guys are a lot of players who make plays. Barton is a good LB, I was sad to see him go. Elam is also a very underrated player.

Offensively, Mangini is conservative. Hopefully he relinquishes offensive play calling duties to the coordinator, BUT, despite this being the case in New York, Mangini still had a hand in play calling. He believes in defense, ball control, creating turnovers and having none of your own. You will be penalized very little, as his teams are disciplined in this department (we were all 3 years).

Don't read into anything he says, he is very deliberate with his statements when he wants to be. He's like the CIA, but when he wants to make his point, he does. You'll know the starting QB when you see one guy taking all the snaps with the first team. He says one thing and does whatever he wants.

He is good friends with Tannenbaum. I expect many trades between our two franchises in the future.

I hope you guys do well this year. Beat the snot out of Pittsburgh and Baltimore. You have 2 good QBs in Anderson and Quinn, so whoever starts you shouldn't have a problem. I also hope you don't trade Edwards. He's very good, and if Mangini lets the offense go a little, this could work out well for you.

I'm pooped for today, I'll talk to you guys soon. Thanks for the welcome.

John

@fooleeze said:

Elam made a couple of good plays tonight, including a pick. (Maybe another, I couldn't see who it was from where I was sitting).

He was always a good player for us, always around the ball, and has made some big game changing plays. He stepped up when we had a big hole on the team during the season a few years ago.

@greythan said:

My first time this season starting a QB thread, so move along if you aren't interested.

My question relates to the competition and how/where film study of the two QB's comes into play. Obviously, there is more film on DA than Quinn at this point.

The reason I ask is because I witnessed DA's practice with my own eyes last year in Berea. The guy flat out looks like a world beater. Its hard to imagine the guy you see in Berea doing some of the things we've seen in the few years in live games. Doesn't seem to be the same guy.

So, where does this factor into the competition? Mangini's supposed to have said both guys are "even". So, he's simply going to see how the two practice and play in a handful of meaningless preseason games to pick a starter?

I must not understand what can be gleaned from practices.

Hi, just registered a few minutes ago with a question on Ratliff, if he's even playing.

Mangini is like the CIA. He'll give no information at all, speak in generalities, be flatly positive about everyone he actually does talk about, but his favorites are obvious (i.e. Elam).

Despite what Mangini says, he's going to look at past games and it's going to influence his opinion on the starter, regardless of what he says, unless on QB is crushing the other in the preseason, and, of course, unless he has no control of what happens on the team (front office control). I don't know what it's like in Cleveland.