@the-gipper said:

That is very difficult to measure. BR has had the significant advantage of having the best defense in the NFL playing on his side. I mean, it is easier to win, and come from behind when your defense holds the team to about 14 points a game. If that defense was giving up 24 points a game, BRs success and "leadership" may not be quite what we think it is.

Derrick Anderson could perhaps look like an All Pro with the supporting cast that BR gets from the rest of that team. He does his job, no doubt, but given the same peripheral advantages, I would say that Palmer is the better QB, no matter how you toss the dice

.

Ben does have a great defense, and that does take some pressure off of him, but Ben has something like 19 or 20 4th quarter drives for wins in his young career so far. That's pretty damn good. If you look at his completion % and passer rating, they have been pretty damn good. Ben has also done it without a superstar WR. Holmes is great, but hes not a T.O. or Moss, or Fitz.

I like DA, he took the Browns to 10-6, but this year he has looked super awful. No touch. I think the kid from ND deserves a shot now.

Palmer is a great talent, he hasn't won anything though.

@buck-the-frowns said:

...could the Browns play in the toughest division in the NFL in 2010?

easily the toughest division. the ravens and steelers are contenders every year. the browns could easily return to form (10-6) if mangini really is mangenius, and if the bengals are for real...well then say goodbye to the NFC East being the "dominant" division.

i mean lets face it. the eagles always choke, the cowboys havent won a playoff game in like 13 years, the redskins SUCK, and the giants cant find their mojo this year. at least thats what i think. maybe N.O. really is the best team in the NFL, but the G men looked BAD.

@fsg said:

The Bengals have been for real for a few years.....at least in the amount of talent they actually have. It's been a combination of a lot of things keeping them down, including an injury to Carson Palmer, the best Quarterback in the NFL no one talks about.

Coming from a Steelers fan, when I compare Palmer to Roethlisberger, I have to grudgingly give Palmer a lot of edges over Ben. It's too close and I am too biased to call out who is better....suffice to say Palmer is an incredible talent with the best deep ball in professional football.

The AFC North is very tough and will remain so for the next season.....after 2010, I won't make any predictions because we don't even know if there will be football and under what arrangement it will be.

what do you give palmer the edge on? wins? playoffwins? superbowl wins? palmer is more of a pure passer but ben is the better field general. hands down.

solidarity from pittsburgh. i know most of you could give a shit less what a steeler fan thinks, but i think the idea to not show up in the seats till after kickoff is a great idea.

cleveland deserves a top notch product, being that the browns are one of the most proud sports franchises of all time.

we in pittsburgh do in fact miss the rivalry. we love playing you guys, but it would be better if you guys laid it to us every once in a while.

so...solidarity, and beat the shit out of the ravens. peace.

@cuyahoga said:

Pittsburgh is a football and hockey town. Baseball is a distant third and, with the exception of the 1979 team, has been since the death of Clemente. The Pirates weren't even all that popular relative to the Steelers even when they were good in the late eighties / early ninties. Despite that, the Pirates have the historical edge on the Indians and have won three World Series' since the last Indians title. Basketball isn't even on the radar in Pittsburgh, and people certainly don't consider the 76ers to be the local team. The Cavs are the geographically closest team, and few care about them one way or the other.

Here's a tip- when you're arguing football, baseball and basketball are irrelevant.

I made some of the points you made man...but whoever the asshat was who deleted my post was obviously scared that it would inject far too much logic into the conversation.

@squintz said:

Are you trying to butter me up so I'm more inclined to buy you a beer or three down in Tampa.....?

nah man its cool, ill even buy YOU a beer for having the stones to wear brown to the stadium. hahaha. you want me to bring an extra terrible towel for ya? it would be a great photo op...ill even hold a dog bone.

@inspecta said:

Demo,

I get what your saying, and if they do it's just one more off the list, however seeing the Cards win would give all of us hope that yes, even us can win the big one, even after the dismal year we had.

Dude, that morgan freeman .gif is HILARIOUS.

@inspecta said:

Demo,

I get what your saying, and if they do it's just one more off the list, however seeing the Cards win would give all of us hope that yes, even us can win the big one, even after the dismal year we had.

Yea, but it took the Cards their entire existence to get here. You don't want that for the Browns. I don't want that for the Browns. I want to play the Browns every year in the playoffs. That would be sweet.

Screw the NFC. It's better for the conference if the Steelers win, better for the division, and it speaks well for rust belt football.

The Browns WILL win the big one. As soon as Brady Quinn starts a full season under a competent head coach, the turn around will begin. Braylon Edwards has to stop dropping balls too.

And why doesnt Cribbs run some WildDawg for you guys? He's a beast. Just musings of a Steeler fan.

Zombo said:

Wow, Squintz that is awesome, we'll be looking for ya ... who did you have to know to score SB tickets?

Zombo

zombo, i will also be in tampa for the game and have some pretty good seats. ill make a point to go meet your fellow browns fan, maybe (just maybe) drink a beer with him, and convince him to root for the AFC North.

do you really want to see the cards win a superbowl before the browns? I dont.

Zombo said:

Thanks for your compelling threads on Hines Ward and Ray Lewis, John.

We look forward to "why Carson Palmer is so cute" next week.

Zombo

Hahahahaha.

Zombo said:

Been there, did them.

Nah, go with your first instincts, I'm kind of an ass.

As if my avatar did not give it away, I will be rooting for the Steelers to lose for the 640th consecutive week. I'm rooting for the Old Cardinal fans of St. louis that had their team taken away. I like the Cards from the Jim Hart, Terry Metcalf, Mel Gray, Conrad Dobler old-school era. This one's for them.

Sir, now that I see you are a serviceman, you should know that there is only one flag that really matters, and I salute you.

Zombo

Thanks man. I see you hail now from Naples. I'm coming to Florida (for obvious reasons) in a little over a week. I'll sample the women down there hopefully.

And of course you're kind of an ass, you hate God's gift to the NFL. lol. OOO!

I can see rooting for old school st louis cardinals fans, but as a city they have had a superbowl and a world series that even i as a young buck can remember. i cant sympathize.

i would love to see Larry get a ring, just because he was tearing it up while i was a student at Pitt. I just don't want him beating the Steelers to do it. I love Fitz though. So many great memories of him. Great time to be in school.

@atenears said:

Don't let him rope-a-dope ya PghFemo5 ... he's still a dick.

hmmm. time will tell. Femo? I hope thats a typo. ah the E is long in Demo for anyone who is wondering. Ryhmes with Nemo of the Finding Nemo fame. Easier than my long Italian last name.

Zombo said:

Well, yeah. I've been all over the country and Pittsburgh ranks pretty low on the hot chick scale, not so much the city itself but the outlying posts like Greensburg, Washington ... but the ugliest chicks I have ever seen come from Punxsatawney, which is not Pittsburgh, but still Steeler country.

Like any other metropolitan areas there are a lot of beauties too. But, I'm not from Pittsburgh or Cleveland and I can honestly tell you... Cleveland has much better-looking women overall.

But, I digress. Yes, we go lowbrow with Steeler fans sometimes, but, as you can see, that's not the way we talk to each other.

Like WPBDawg pointed out, if the visitors would respect the place and act like guests who just want to talk football, we wouldn't have a problem with them. Problem is that 85% of them come in here like jagoffs.

Your post was great, and respectful, if they were all like you, we wouldn't have a problem. We'd root for the Browns, you'd root for the Steelers, and we'd have some good-natured ribbing. I'd actually like it that way. We don't want to just talk to ourselves, we enjoy an occasional rival coming here with some spirited talk during the week we play them, and other times too.

But if you come in the door with all this mindless towel-waving and your mission is just to antagonize and shit all over the place, you will either 1) be escorted out or 2) left to be pawed around by the member who are like boarded cats batting around sick mice.

Skippy made me a moderator after the AFC Championship to help him police the place because of the influx of Steeler fans. I don't even like moderating, I'd rather just post, but this site means a lot to me, so I am glad to help out. You wouldn't believe the endless crap that Steeler fans throw all over our board that needs to be deleted, it kind of takes the fun out of it for me.

I don't mind posting my "This Week" column every week, baiting some rival fans into a go-round and then sparring with them for a day or two. But day after day with the same old crap ... it gets old.

I notice that when someone becomes a moderator, they post less. Mark, Hoorta, WPB, they all used to post more. Now Doug and I are slowing down. It's because you log on and you see all the crap you have to clean off, then you forget what you wanted to discuss with your Browns friends in the first place.

Dude, your post was great, if you have more friends that feel the same way you do, bring them over. But understand when you are 4-12 and the Steelers are in the super bowl and there are ten of them just spewing crap all over our boards all day ... some of our members end up getting bored and dropping to their level and smacking them around.

But when this board is rocking and rolling, there are no greater, more loyal fans anywhere. Old school, new school ... you name it. This is an intelligent, passionate bunch, and we can tell a real Steeler fan from a hate-baiter, so stick around if you feel the need.

Zombo

--the average Pittsburgh girl is pretty cute ... but c'mon you have admit there are some scary-looking pockets out their with girls with thicker unibrows than mine

Westmoreland, Greene, Fayette County. Thats hick area. But its still Steeler country. Shit, everything west all the way to Harrisburg is Steeler country. To the east to Youngstown, south to Lord knows where....and North to Erie. Steeler country is huge. There are DEFINITELY some ugly chicks out there.

But I want you to come to Pitt. Check out the Pitt girls. Duquesne girls. Even the little nerdy chicks at CMU can be smoking hot. Now maybe Im just still stuck in college (Im 24 years old) but the girls I see when Im out at the bars I frequent, and at my tailgates...well we like to keep the quality of girls high.

Good post Zombo, I didn't think you could be as much of an ass as I thought you were. You proved me right.

So I will ask you now sir. Steelers or Cards? Sticking with the AFC or do you hate the black and gold so much you want the birds?

...hey! I resent the mindless towel waving comment!

@inspecta said:

Take a look at BOSSY's posts/threads and you'll know why we go off like we do. You poke the beast expect to get the fangs.

I don't think BOSSY is an actual Pittsburgh fan. I think BOSSY was "created" by someone who just likes to stir the shit pot. "I like Boy George"??????? NOBODY would ever say that. It burned my fingers just to type it!

@atenears said:

Good post PghDemo5 .... that Zombo character, he's a bad dude. The rest of us try to take the high road ...

Thanks man. Yea I just had to say something, because when I saw his post I just thought..."Wow, that is straight up NASTY!"

Guy seems like a real dick. I say "seems" because he might be a nice guy, but from what he wrote, he's a pretty spiteful dude.

Somebody pass me another Elliot Ness.

@wpb-dawg-fan said:

hey Demo...all you need to do is look up at the top of the message board to see that we have had to institute RULES just to get the Steeler fans (Ravens fans don't come here much) to settle down a bit.

They start threads about the Steelers 'greatness'

They mock our team and our fans in EVERY thread

They add little to no content other than smack and gloating

I spend a great deal of my time on this board just trying to keep the damage they do to good threads to a minimum. It is this lack of intelligence and edicate that causes most of the fans here to go off on tangents regarding PA and Steeler fans in general.

From your post, you seem like an intelligent person, with possibly some good stuff to add. You are more than welcome to join in discussions. If you do that...I doubt YOU will be the target of those types of comments.

But do not expect the general Browns fan to treat the trolls we get from Pitt with anything but contempt. After all, you are GUESTS, and if they can't respect that...they get what they get.

By the way

WELCOME!

WPB Dawg Fan...Thank you for the welcome. Hopefully I might be able to add something of value to discussions on the AFC, our shared rivalry, or anything NFL related. Hell, I'll talk about ANYTHING. I want you to know this too...I'm an equal opportunity ass kicker. Haha. I will flame moron Steeler fans with the same venom as I will anyone else. If you're going to police...make sure you police your own.

That being out of the way...who do you like next Sunday? Please stick with the AFC!

@inspecta said:

Take a look at BOSSY's posts/threads and you'll know why we go off like we do. You poke the beast expect to get the fangs.

That's all you took out of that whole post? Come on man. I wrote that to POSSIBLY provoke some intelligent discussion. Like I said, idiot Steeler fans and idiot Browns fans both exist. To let those morons shape your outlook on an entire city is absolutely Retarded.

I first came to this board to share my hatred of the Ravens with people outside of Pittsburgh. I thought to myself...Hey, if anyone hates the Ravens...it HAS to be Cleveland fans. Logic would dictate that.

Instead of what I was looking for, I found "Shittsburgh, Stoolers, Squealers etc..."

I'm not bitching...Pittsburgh vs Cleveland is a great rivalry. One expects a certain level of bile to be spewed. We do the same in Pittsburgh. Yea, Pittsburgh is absolutely dominating the rivalry of late...but it's no different than when the Browns owned the Steelers before the Noll era. Things go in cycles. I may be from Pittsburgh (and proud) but I'm not ignorant of history.

What I don't understand though is the nasty attacks on the PEOPLE of Pittsburgh. Some of the people who post on this site must view the average Pittsburgh as little more than an Appalachian hillbilly. I mean...it gets pretty damn mean.

Like Zombo... I mean he has a right to his opinion and all, but where does he get off calling our city "rancid" and our women "toothless"? Really? Have you been to Pittsburgh and seen a lot of toothless women?

Pennsyltucky? Eastern Ohio and West Virgina are seperated by nothing more than bridges...I think parts of your state are just as "hill billy" as ours. Trust me, I served with a lot of good guys from that area. Great guys, but admittedly redneck. Oh and the joke in PA is as such..." Everything between...BETWEEN Pittsburgh and Philly is Kentucky." Our world class Universities and Hospitals (Much like Cleveland with the Cleveland Clinic) should give us a little more cred than that.

Now...look. I understand that if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Or whatever else tired cliche you want to use. I didn't come here looking for a Steeler love fest. I'm not naive. I expected Steeler bashing. (I did expect more Raven bashing though.) If you want to bash the Steelers, I get it. But bashing the city, and the people...that's a low and ignorant.

There are idiot Steeler fans, and idiot Browns fans. If you let a few morons from Pittsburgh who shoot their mouth off shape your view of a whole city...well you're just as Retarded.

I've been to Cleveland...I had a great time. I saw a Cavs game, it was a blast. I order Elliot Ness every chance I get at the bar here...I'm a big fan of Great Lakes Brewery. Do I hate the Browns? Hell yes. I wouldn't be a Steeler fan if I didn't.

Do I hate the fans? No. I respect them for their commitment. Thats all. I just wanted to throw that out there.

One more thing. When Art moved your team to Balitmore...remember that Dan Rooney was one of the only people who wanted to block the move. The last time the Browns played at Three Rivers, Steelers fans wore Orange armbands to protest the move and show solidarity. We're not that bad. We're dedicated. Just like you.

@ithika said:

Exactly, Omar Epps is riding a team that was already built to win! He has done absolutely nothing this year except not mess it up. The real credit goes to Dick Lebeau who is the real genius and actually should be your HC.

Your offense stinks your defense is once again one of the best. Tomlin, I mean Omar had nothing to do with that!

Speaking of your crappy offense, just like I said before without a solid running game the Stoloers wont make it past their first playoff game and we're going to see that this weekend. The Chargers O is very good and will put up just enough points to win the game against your crappy offense. Ben will be off his game(concussion)and they will bring the blitz every down(7 sacks). Sorry, but your D won't win this one!

Have fun sitting at home watching the super bowl!

if were going to watch the superbowl at home, maybe you could give us some tips on how to properly do it. your city has done it 42 times in a row now right?