Baker Mayfield
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Lamar has an MVP trophy and Baker does not.. because Lamar is both a better passer and runner than Baker. Lamar has a Heisman - just like Baker.
Every rationale you could make for Baker holds for Lamar -- Lamar's passing stats better with more All-Pros in OL, better with a better running game, better with better WR's, etc. So far in 2021, Lamar has more passing TD's [14 to BM's 8] - and throws them at a higher % than Baker. This is to be expected -- In Lamar's MVP season, he led the league in pass TD's and TD%. Also in 2021, Lamar has more passing yards [2447 to 1917] .. and has 4 game-winning drives while Baker has none. Links go to profootballreference. And Lamar has nearly half of Baltimore's 1400 rushing yards this season.. If he really needs to have a label on him, Lamar is a passing QB whose side hustle is his NFL-level RB skills.
By way of comparison, when you add rushing, LJ has 1200 more total yards at this point in his career [as of this week he's started exactly 3 full seasons of games, 9 so far plus the 7 in his year 1] than Russell Wilson. Just look at his numbers as if you'd never thought about him before... Trying to shoehorn facts into a preconceived notion is never worth it because you'll find yourself defending some really odd ideas.
BAL lost on Thursday.. If all of Chubb, Hunt, and DJ had ACL's, how would our running game look? The lolphins blitzed a ton [through BAL's shorthanded OL] and outside of garbage time shut down BAL's offense with their good DB's.. wouldn't shock me if Jevon Holland gets DROY. Cleveland's offense has never been shut down this year, right? This happens to good QB's all the time.. Aaron Rodgers had a abysmal week 1 this season, Mahomes was annhilated by Titans a couple weeks ago. IMHO a ton of blitzing is the blueprint to beat BAL, but the beauty of football is that we'll see. There were also a lot of BAL dropped passes and unimaginative playcalling - you know, another day in the NFL.
But seriously, at some point it's time to drop the notion that any one baltimore loss "Proves Lamar Can Never Win" .. Nope, sorry. He's really good, he'll be there for the next 7 years or so, and if Baltimore wins a SB or two, he'll be a permanent fixture down the road in Canton.
A better passer?... Are you fucking high?
Are you fucking high?
You're high on your own supply if you think Baker - who's smaller than LJ - is a better passer than Lamar.
You're welcome to your own feelings, but not your own facts.
Zombo said:
I have no idea why people on this board keep underselling Baker
Baker Mayfield hasn't won an NFL MVP award. Lamar has - and he deserved it.
It's not underselling Baker to say he's not as good as a guy who has an NFL MVP.. that's actually about as objective as you can get. They're both good -- and Lamar is better..
You're overselling Baker to tell yourself he's better than one of the top tier of QB's in the league.
Zombo said:
we lead the league in rushing TDs
Great, but not related to Mayfield's performance vs Lamar.
Zombo said:
it's never enough for some people
I agree -- Lamar can't do enough to demonstrate to you that he's better than Mayfield.
Zombo said:
I guess they prefer pinball passing stats to a well executed game plan.
As opposed, of course, to Baltimore's game plan, right?
So if you aren't interested in coming up with some metric and sticking to that comparison whether it's a positive or negative result for you.. then it's really just feelings and not an actual analysis of anything. It's just a bad choice to try to compare Baker to, of all people, Lamar Jackson...
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
Are you fucking high?
You're high on your own supply if you think Baker - who's smaller than LJ - is a better passer than Lamar.
You're welcome to your own feelings, but not your own facts.
Zombo said:
I have no idea why people on this board keep underselling Baker
Baker Mayfield hasn't won an NFL MVP award. Lamar has - and he deserved it.
It's not underselling Baker to say he's not as good as a guy who has an NFL MVP.. that's actually about as objective as you can get. They're both good -- and Lamar is better..
You're overselling Baker to tell yourself he's better than one of the top tier of QB's in the league.
Zombo said:
we lead the league in rushing TDs
Great, but not related to Mayfield's performance vs Lamar.
Zombo said:
it's never enough for some people
I agree -- Lamar can't do enough to demonstrate to you that he's better than Mayfield.
Zombo said:
I guess they prefer pinball passing stats to a well executed game plan.
As opposed, of course, to Baltimore's game plan, right?
So if you aren't interested in coming up with some metric and sticking to that comparison whether it's a positive or negative result for you.. then it's really just feelings and not an actual analysis of anything. It's just a bad choice to try to compare Baker to, of all people, Lamar Jackson...
You're high on your own supply if you think Baker - who's smaller than LJ - is a better passer than Lamar.
You're welcome to your own feelings, but not your own facts.
Baker Mayfield hasn't won an NFL MVP award. Lamar has - and he deserved it.
It's not underselling Baker to say he's not as good as a guy who has an NFL MVP.. that's actually about as objective as you can get. They're both good -- and Lamar is better..
You're overselling Baker to tell yourself he's better than one of the top tier of QB's in the league.
Great, but not related to Mayfield's performance vs Lamar.
I agree -- Lamar can't do enough to demonstrate to you that he's better than Mayfield.
As opposed, of course, to Baltimore's game plan, right?
So if you aren't interested in coming up with some metric and sticking to that comparison whether it's a positive or negative result for you.. then it's really just feelings and not an actual analysis of anything. It's just a bad choice to try to compare Baker to, of all people, Lamar Jackson...
Well.. You're an ASS.. So there's that..
Nickers...."There are no old running QB's in the NFL "~Sam Rutigliano~ -
Every rationale you could make for Baker holds for Lamar -- Lamar's passing stats better with more All-Pros in OL, better with a better running game, better with better WR's, etc. So far in 2021, Lamar has more passing TD's [14 to BM's 8] - and throws them at a higher % than Baker. This is to be expected -- In Lamar's MVP season, he led the league in pass TD's and TD%. Also in 2021, Lamar has more passing yards [2447 to 1917] .. and has 4 game-winning drives while Baker has none. Links go to profootballreference. And Lamar has nearly half of Baltimore's 1400 rushing yards this season.. If he really needs to have a label on him, Lamar is a passing QB whose side hustle is his NFL-level RB skills.
You failed to mention that LJ has thrown 8 interceptions this year compared to Baker’ 3 picks.
I look at LJ as a running back that happens to throw the ball.
You failed to mention that LJ has thrown 8 interceptions this year compared to Baker’ 3 picks.
I look at LJ as a running back that happens to throw the ball.
You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
You failed to mention that LJ has thrown 8 interceptions this year compared to Baker’ 3 picks.
I look at LJ as a running back that happens to throw the ball.
You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].
You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].
Baker had Fat freddie that season Goof..
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You're high on your own supply if you think Baker - who's smaller than LJ - is a better passer than Lamar.
You're welcome to your own feelings, but not your own facts.
Baker Mayfield hasn't won an NFL MVP award. Lamar has - and he deserved it.
It's not underselling Baker to say he's not as good as a guy who has an NFL MVP.. that's actually about as objective as you can get. They're both good -- and Lamar is better..
You're overselling Baker to tell yourself he's better than one of the top tier of QB's in the league.
Great, but not related to Mayfield's performance vs Lamar.
I agree -- Lamar can't do enough to demonstrate to you that he's better than Mayfield.
As opposed, of course, to Baltimore's game plan, right?
So if you aren't interested in coming up with some metric and sticking to that comparison whether it's a positive or negative result for you.. then it's really just feelings and not an actual analysis of anything. It's just a bad choice to try to compare Baker to, of all people, Lamar Jackson...
Well.. You're an ASS.. So there's that..
Well.. You're an ASS.. So there's that..
When unable to counter with facts, there's always the nickers way of debating...
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When unable to counter with facts, there's always the nickers way of debating...
And you belong in that group yourself Mr hillbilly
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When unable to counter with facts, there's always the nickers way of debating...
And you belong in that group yourself Mr hillbilly
And you belong in that group yourself Mr hillbilly
Oh, I won't even attempt to debate football with you nickers. No way.
You played Little League Football!
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Zombo said:
Of all people!!
Jackson got an MVP while his legs were young, but someday he'll have to become a pocket passer and you'll feel like an idiot for saying he's a better PASSER than Mayfield.
Baker completes 66.7% of his passes at a clip of 8.5 y/a, Jackson 64.4% for 7.9 y/a with 5 extra interceptions to boot.
Z
One would think that Baker is poised to have a longer, more consistent NFL career than Lamar because of this - how will Lamar be able to transition to being more of a pocket QB when his athleticism starts to wain? I don't think Baker's ceiling is as high as Lamar's - but his floor might be much higher, resulting in a more consistent, longer career.
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Oh, I won't even attempt to debate football with you nickers. No way.
You played Little League Football!
Good.. I don't deal with simpletons like you..
Nickers...."There are no old running QB's in the NFL "~Sam Rutigliano~ -
It's funny, that was the one play I could think of. There's obviously been others, but that's the one I'd like to replicate, specifically for Baker and his confidence. How about more Harrison Bryant? I like him!
I have a very bad feeling that we're not going to be able to run the ball and we're going to get down early due to random ass turnovers that somehow go their way and cause our passing game to either win or lose it.
We'll be fine
We'll be fine
I THINK so, but it's a very strange game. Most of the games this year I've had a pretty good handle on. The few exceptions have been the Steelers and Bengals game. I don't feel like I have a grasp on this one, and New England is an overtime loss away from winning 5 in a row. That's not insignificant. That's basically as hot as any team in the entire league if you think about it.
That being said, it really does seem like we're just BETTER than them, right? Top to bottom roster wise, I objectively believe we're more talented. Now, losing Chubb and Hunt for this game DOES cripple us, but Johnson could very well have another nice game. He's decent in the screen game and runs pretty dang well, BUT Johnson absolutely needs to protect the ball better. Way too many one-handed carries in traffic. Believe me, if WE notice it, BILL notices it. ?
An absolutely huge bonus for us is the return of JOK. Patriots absolutely love to take the short stuff and that's something we've struggled with this year, although we did a bit better vs Cincy. Tackling and limiting YAC will be paramount.
I'm a bit more concerned with our offense than our defense, and Chubb getting covid was a real shot to the pills because we started to come alive last week. There's still a good chance Baker spreads it around efficiently like he's always done without OBJ and we have an effective offensive performance.
The game comes down to a few very simple things, like almost every game. Who converts offensively in the red zone and who stops the opposition in the red zone. That was the oke area we struggled with last week and we're scrambling a bit. That option play with Landry was the perfect call, but Landry shit the sheets. We must execute.
And lastly, turnovers. We finally forced a few last week and look at the difference. Conversely, if we're the ones turning it over, we'll lose.
It's a game we can win, but it'll have to be a solid effort. Can't wait!
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If you check, Baker's current qr is well above LJ's. Like the other guy said...he's a great running back. That will be slowing down soon. In fact, I think it already has. I was not a big Baker fan when we drafted him, but at this point, I wouldn't even consider trading him for Jackson. MVP?...that was 3 years ago.
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Are you fucking high?
You're high on your own supply if you think Baker - who's smaller than LJ - is a better passer than Lamar.
You're welcome to your own feelings, but not your own facts.
Zombo said:
I have no idea why people on this board keep underselling Baker
Baker Mayfield hasn't won an NFL MVP award. Lamar has - and he deserved it.
It's not underselling Baker to say he's not as good as a guy who has an NFL MVP.. that's actually about as objective as you can get. They're both good -- and Lamar is better..
You're overselling Baker to tell yourself he's better than one of the top tier of QB's in the league.
Zombo said:
we lead the league in rushing TDs
Great, but not related to Mayfield's performance vs Lamar.
Zombo said:
it's never enough for some people
I agree -- Lamar can't do enough to demonstrate to you that he's better than Mayfield.
Zombo said:
I guess they prefer pinball passing stats to a well executed game plan.
As opposed, of course, to Baltimore's game plan, right?
So if you aren't interested in coming up with some metric and sticking to that comparison whether it's a positive or negative result for you.. then it's really just feelings and not an actual analysis of anything. It's just a bad choice to try to compare Baker to, of all people, Lamar Jackson...
And no other team has ever had bad coordinators or playcalling?
They're both good -- and Lamar is better..
Objective comparisons of Baker vs Lamar just don't end well.
Appreciating athletes on other teams for what they can do doesn't make me any less a fan of Cleveland - or Baker.
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If the 32 NFL GMs were lined up and asked, who do you want, Lamar Jackson or Baker Mayfield, how do you think the vote goes?
And Lamar definitely has limitations too, as shown in the playoffs.
LJ by a landslide... The threat of his legs is so great that his arm/ Head limitations in the passing game matter not. And it is now clear that he brings all the intangibles Baker does... e.g., leadership.
Limits? Yes... but he is still learning at the Pro level and so those limits might ease with time. He has the tools, just needs the refinement. Easier said than realized... hell to the yeah... but so long as he runs smartly and avoids major injury... he has a chance.
If he does not, then he could go the way of Mahomes, from whom some of the luster has faded.
LJ by a landslide... The threat of his legs is so great that his arm/ Head limitations in the passing game matter not. And it is now clear that he brings all the intangibles Baker does... e.g., leadership.
Limits? Yes... but he is still learning at the Pro level and so those limits might ease with time. He has the tools, just needs the refinement. Easier said than realized... hell to the yeah... but so long as he runs smartly and avoids major injury... he has a chance.
If he does not, then he could go the way of Mahomes, from whom some of the luster has faded.
I remember the year LJ won a Heisman at Louisville making him the 1st ACC QB to do that who did not go to Florida State. Anyway, the guy threw 30 TD passes with a 58% completion rate and 3390 yards passing to only 9 INTs. Then came the meatball on spaghetti with another 20 TDs rushing to go with his 1,538 yards on the ground.
I think LJ and Russell Wilson are the toughest 2 QBs to get a clean shot at. The difference between the 2 is that Russell Wilson has played behind some terrible pass protecting OLs making him the easier guy to sack IMO.
The biggest surprise was seeing Miami, of all teams, be the 1st defense this year to consistently cage him in to wind out of sail his confidence and production.
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Zombo said:
Baker completes 66.7% of his passes at a clip of 8.5 y/a, Jackson 64.4% for 7.9 y/a with 5 extra interceptions to boot.
And when you look at career stats.. Baker's a 62% while Lamar is at 64%, and as I said once already Lamar's interception total for his career just this season surpassed Baker's 2019.
This is the challenge when looking at data.. you don't want to fixate on the most recent measurement because you don't know if it's an outlier or not. Lamar has shown he doesn't throw picks [MVP season was 36-6 TD-INT] while Baker hasn't shown that his 2021 lack of INT's is the blip or the trend.
Just to be clear: Do I want Stef to have unleashed the no-INT-throwing-good-presnap-reading Baker for the rest of Baker's career? Of course! But would I bet my house down payment on that as a certainty? No way..
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You failed to mention that LJ has thrown 8 interceptions this year compared to Baker’ 3 picks.
I look at LJ as a running back that happens to throw the ball.
You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].
You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].
How many playoff games has LJ won?
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You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].
How many playoff games has LJ won?
How many playoff games has LJ won?
Not only that.. LJ has the worst mechanics as a Passer I ever saw,,, Hes terribly inaccurate after 15 yards...
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Zombo said:
Maybe I came late to the show here, but I was responding to the statement that Jackson IS the better PASSER.
I don't believe he is.
As far as career ... we'll see ... but I'd bet on Baker winning a SB MVP before Jackson does.
Z
Well if there was ever a year where he's surrounded by a ton of talent and there appears to be a clear shot at the AFC crown, it's this year for Baker to get that Super Bowl MVP.
I mean, as a Browns fan, is there an AFC team right now, THIS SEASON, that makes you say "Oh wow, THAT team would be scary for the Browns to have to beat"?
The path to the Super Bowl is wide open for the Browns.
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Zombo said:
If we can get to 7-4 with Chubb and Hunt back for the bad-weather games ... watch out.
Z
Yeah, I'm not predicting the Browns going to the Super Bowl, but man oh man, when you look at the rest of the AFC, it's hard not to say "Why the hell not us?"
The defense getting healthy has me optimistic.
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Oh, I won't even attempt to debate football with you nickers. No way.
You played Little League Football!
Good.. I don't deal with simpletons like you..
Good.. I don't deal with simpletons like you..
I can totally understand this.
I mean, reading your intelligent, thoughtful posts on here, one comes to the conclusion that you obviously have a very good life, a very successful job, and a beautiful, loving wife.
Cheers to you nickers, and to all your obvious success.
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Zombo said:
Maybe I came late to the show here, but I was responding to the statement that Jackson IS the better PASSER.
I don't believe he is.
As far as career ... we'll see ... but I'd bet on Baker winning a SB MVP before Jackson does.
Z
Well if there was ever a year where he's surrounded by a ton of talent and there appears to be a clear shot at the AFC crown, it's this year for Baker to get that Super Bowl MVP.
I mean, as a Browns fan, is there an AFC team right now, THIS SEASON, that makes you say "Oh wow, THAT team would be scary for the Browns to have to beat"?
The path to the Super Bowl is wide open for the Browns.
Well if there was ever a year where he's surrounded by a ton of talent and there appears to be a clear shot at the AFC crown, it's this year for Baker to get that Super Bowl MVP.
I mean, as a Browns fan, is there an AFC team right now, THIS SEASON, that makes you say "Oh wow, THAT team would be scary for the Browns to have to beat"?
The path to the Super Bowl is wide open for the Browns.
On this.. We can agree on..
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