Baker Mayfield
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There are times I just hate the fans. I suppose Baker feels the same way. There's probably not a player in the league that hates not playing up to his potential as badly as he does.. There's a reason that the backup quarterback isn't starting for another team. Usually that reason is that the starter is as good or better even at 80% . At any rate these are my guys these are the guys I root for these are the guys I support. If they fall short I feel shitty just like they do. No doubt we all know fans who scream and bitch and curse their own team for every mistake. What fun can that be? Screw those people.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
I suppose my issue is this - IF Baker is the leader of this team, then it underscores just why I believe there is such a dearth of leadership in this world.
Being a leader isn't just about being fiery, toughness, vocal, etc etc. It's about accountability and doing what is best for those in your charge. It also means, despite how much it might suck, removing yourself from the equation to make clear decisions. If I can't hit a throw that many NFL backups can in that moment without a high probability of a turnover, a turnover that hurts my team, then I shouldn't be out there.
Of course this isn't easy to say to yourself. It goes against every competitive instinct you have. And I sympathize with that because in your heart you care, therefore you'll always feel like you give your guys the best shot of winning. Circle back around to what I said about removing ones self from the equation.
If Baker is concerned about booing, it's because his competitive nature and desire to be out there is so strong that it is now bordering on selfishness. If my QBs presence hurts more than it helps then I have to sit him down for an unpleasant conversation.
I wouldn't have boo'd Baker, it's bad form. But I would boo Stef for willingly allowing an injured player to be in that situation.
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There are times I just hate the fans. I suppose Baker feels the same way. There's probably not a player in the league that hates not playing up to his potential as badly as he does.. There's a reason that the backup quarterback isn't starting for another team. Usually that reason is that the starter is as good or better even at 80% . At any rate these are my guys these are the guys I root for these are the guys I support. If they fall short I feel shitty just like they do. No doubt we all know fans who scream and bitch and curse their own team for every mistake. What fun can that be? Screw those people.
WSS
There are times I just hate the fans. I suppose Baker feels the same way. There's probably not a player in the league that hates not playing up to his potential as badly as he does.. There's a reason that the backup quarterback isn't starting for another team. Usually that reason is that the starter is as good or better even at 80% . At any rate these are my guys these are the guys I wrote for these are the guys I support. If they fall short I feel shitty just like they do. No doubt we all know fans who scream and bitch and curse their own team for every mistake. What fun can that be? Screw those people.
WSS
? comes with the price of a ticket, so they say.. showing some class towards a playing injured player? cost ya nothing... Great Post Sir Westside !
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Agreed! Now back to the reason I brought up the WR position - are we sure it's JUST Baker we need to upgrade asap? And I'm impressed with how many people think Lamar Jackson is hard to stop; especially considering he wasn't exactly Josh Rosen PRE-draft. The convenient out for all of Rosen's pre-draft fans was "bad football team - poor guy just didn't have a chance." Sticking with such a precedent, what was the record of the team that drafted Baker?
I've seen enough of the guy to know what he CAN do even as a wide eyed rookie entering his 1st game with a 14 point deficit and leading the Browns to victory. Just to recap, the 0-16 team started his rookie year 0-1-1. Still a worthless team without him on the field. Next thing you know the team went 7-7 in the games he played; and he's setting a TD passing record for rookie QBs on a franchise with a record of 1-32-1 in the 34 games before he 1st entered the field. In 2019, the Browns lost both starting Tackles in the opener plus the 1st backup at LT all in 1 game vrs TN. That season became a necessary backward step that the FO used to draft Wills and sign Conklin as priorities to the 2020 offense that won 11 regular season games + 1 playoff game where the Browns score 48 points AT PITTSBURGH. So let's get rid of Baker so we can return to watching this franchise draft QBs the way it has done since 1999? It's been THAT fun has it?
More math? Have we forgotten the inventory of Offensive Coordinators here that the young QB had to learn and deprogram? And people act like if THIS franchise just drafted Lamar Jackson he'd be in 1 piece ALLOWED to do the stuff seemingly only Baltimore was interested in letting him do as soon as they submitted their draft selection of him. Hue Jackson would have put him on a leash saying QBs aren't RBs in this league; and he'd have more broken bones than Evil Kaneival. Tim Couch had a 64 yard run vrs the Rams as a rookie right before halftime thinking Chris Palmer was going to compliment him before Palmer tore him a new ass. Meanwhile in Philly, Donovan McNabb was playing for an offensive minded HC and OC that allowed him the type of liberties with his feet that Baltimore has done with Lamar. All McNabb did was turn around the team with the worst record in 98 with 9 playoff appearances, 5 NFC Championship Games and 1 SB. in his 1st 10 or 11 seasons. SOME of this is the luck of going to the right MIND/system. It makes no sense to me if you draft anyone only to Dr Frankenstein all his gifts into something he isn't wired to do.
How come when teams are easily getting outside of Myles Garrett off the edge - we're/he's only blaming the Coordinator and teammates? I LOVE sacks but not at the expense of giving up contain. We're not stopping shit with film going viral on how to beat it. And when they lined up Clowney next to Garrett - it was the easiest TD Houston scored all year. The good news was Tyrod pulled a hammy so the Browns could come back and win.
I've seen what this team is capable of with Baker enough to know I'm not interested in returning to the QB t-shirt culture everyone once bitched about (especially me) before Baker arrived. It's up to the FO and coaching staff to get this stuff worked out. As I was leading to, upgrading the WR position would be an ideal place to start. Not many opponents are going to have trouble winning their matchups against our guys on the perimeter. Let's hope that doesn't include the winless Lions today...
Generally you and I have great discussion. But if you think what McNabb did with his feet - as a mobile passer who ran only to throw, is ANYTHING like the stucture that the Ravens HAD* to implement with Lamar as an offensive supplement, then we really need to sit down for a long ass chat.
The issues many Browns fans aren't recognizing is a simple one. The Browns have HAD some talent on these rosters in current and previous years. The QB play was just so damn dismal that it didn't allow them to be even remotely competitive. Until a local boy like Brian Hoyer and Young Shanahan showed that you only need a slightly-above average QB to actually win some games and allow the rest of said talent and quality coaching to take you to 8-8 (ish) Imagine if Jim O neil isn't the defensive coordinator in 2014 and we draft Khalil Mack, Aaron Donald or Mike Evans? (like I wanted) That squad would have gone to the wildcard with Brian Hoyer at QB.
Another example would be the season before Alex Smith arrived in KC. 1 win to what...? 9-10 wins? Not spectacular QB play, but just good enough at the most important position on the field.
Baker himself isn't solely responsible for the Browns turn-around so much as it an infusion of young talent and decent, NOT great, coaches. The Bengals had playoff appearances with Andy Dalton and Marvin Lewis for Christ sake.
Generally you and I have great discussion. But if you think what McNabb did with his feet - as a mobile passer who ran only to throw, is ANYTHING like the stucture that the Ravens HAD* to implement with Lamar as an offensive supplement, then we really need to sit down for a long ass chat.
The issues many Browns fans aren't recognizing is a simple one. The Browns have HAD some talent on these rosters in current and previous years. The QB play was just so damn dismal that it didn't allow them to be even remotely competitive. Until a local boy like Brian Hoyer and Young Shanahan showed that you only need a slightly-above average QB to actually win some games and allow the rest of said talent and quality coaching to take you to 8-8 (ish) Imagine if Jim O neil isn't the defensive coordinator in 2014 and we draft Khalil Mack, Aaron Donald or Mike Evans? (like I wanted) That squad would have gone to the wildcard with Brian Hoyer at QB.
Another example would be the season before Alex Smith arrived in KC. 1 win to what...? 9-10 wins? Not spectacular QB play, but just good enough at the most important position on the field.
Baker himself isn't solely responsible for the Browns turn-around so much as it an infusion of young talent and decent, NOT great, coaches. The Bengals had playoff appearances with Andy Dalton and Marvin Lewis for Christ sake.
Good points; but it sure seemed like the ONLY guy considering McNabb out of SU's Veer Option offense was Andy Reid. And when you get right down to it - it was a similar offense to the one Brett Favre played in at So Miss (whom Andy Reid helped coach up into a WCO QB) which IMO made Reid more interested in what other teams/scouts considered to unconventional for the pro game at the time. Look at how much that has changed today since Reid showed you look at the player to determine whether he can fit what you want him do rather than the system. Once upon a time, people used to talk about avoiding BYU system QBs before guys like Jim McMahon and Steve Young bucked that trend. What bucks a trend? A player or 2 that shows you on film why you should do so...
As for Cleveland, I agree with a lot of the points you made but I pointed out what the record was the last 34 games before Baker got behind Center. 1-32-1. And the first game he appeared in the team was behind by 14 points with the same players Baker had. All of a sudden the offense moved the ball (allowing the defense to rest) while it put points on the board to erase the deficit and win. There were COUNTLESS reasons this franchise needed to use the 1st overall pick on a QB.
I'm not saying he's the BEST QB in the league - but I AM saying I'm not nearly as excited about going back to hoping all the stars and planets align for this franchise to find the right QB while it goes through countless HCs and OCs that never allow the continuity to allow a young QB to succeed. Again, there was a t-shirt full of QBs that couldn't succeed in Cleveland. We can debate the reasons for failure until we're blue in the face. The point is Baker looked pretty good in the first system with sufficient room for growth of course. I consider you a very intelligent football guy so I'm sure you know that losing both starting Tackles on opening day vrs TN as well as the backup LT - wasn't setting this team up for success. Solution found by drafting a Tackle in round 1 and signing Conklin the next year which unfolded into an 11-5 season plus a playoff win. More guys are playing hurt and missing games this year than last year so we're not surviving injury as well. And UNFORTUNATELY, Baker has not played well which gets the debates going if he's worthy of committing to.
As for the talent thing, poor Joe Thomas had only 1 winning season here - and that was with Derek Anderson as his QB. Outside of that, if I walked up and told him I can't wait until we get rid of Baker for a REAL QB - what do you think he'd say to me?
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I suppose my issue is this - IF Baker is the leader of this team, then it underscores just why I believe there is such a dearth of leadership in this world.
Being a leader isn't just about being fiery, toughness, vocal, etc etc. It's about accountability and doing what is best for those in your charge. It also means, despite how much it might suck, removing yourself from the equation to make clear decisions. If I can't hit a throw that many NFL backups can in that moment without a high probability of a turnover, a turnover that hurts my team, then I shouldn't be out there.
Of course this isn't easy to say to yourself. It goes against every competitive instinct you have. And I sympathize with that because in your heart you care, therefore you'll always feel like you give your guys the best shot of winning. Circle back around to what I said about removing ones self from the equation.
If Baker is concerned about booing, it's because his competitive nature and desire to be out there is so strong that it is now bordering on selfishness. If my QBs presence hurts more than it helps then I have to sit him down for an unpleasant conversation.
I wouldn't have boo'd Baker, it's bad form. But I would boo Stef for willingly allowing an injured player to be in that situation.
I wouldn't have boo'd Baker, it's bad form. But I would boo Stef for willingly allowing an injured player to be in that situation.
And maybe that response would be valid if, and only if your knowledge of the game of football exceeded that of Kevin Stefansky. And not just a knee jerk reaction to scream the name of whoever the backup quarterback might possibly be. Kelly Holcomb Mike Peggel Don Strock...
Your position demands the acknowledgment that the coach doesn't know what hes doing.
WSS
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I wouldn't have boo'd Baker, it's bad form. But I would boo Stef for willingly allowing an injured player to be in that situation.
And maybe that response would be valid if, and only if your knowledge of the game of football exceeded that of Kevin Stefansky. And not just a knee jerk reaction to scream the name of whoever the backup quarterback might possibly be. Kelly Holcomb Mike Peggel Don Strock...
Your position demands the acknowledgment that the coach doesn't know what hes doing.
WSS
And maybe that response would be valid if, and only if your knowledge of the game of football exceeded that of Kevin Stefansky. And not just a knee jerk reaction to scream the name of whoever the backup quarterback might possibly be. Kelly Holcomb Mike Peggel Don Strock...
Your position demands the acknowledgment that the coach doesn't know what hes doing.
WSS
That's a clowns take on my words.
Stefs command of the game, X's and O's is superior, no arguing that. While I may not be as fluent in the language, I can still understand the conversation at a high level. But "football isn't a game played, coached or managed by geniuses". (A former 1st round pick told me that a long time ago.)
It's done by men capable of making (very obvious) mistakes. Intelligent people can still do dumb things from time to time.
Edit: sort of like calling a HB draw on 4th and 9. I've seen 2 coaches do that. Both coaches know more than myself, but that doesn't absolve them from my understanding that, in the moment, it was a piss poor decision.
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Generally you and I have great discussion. But if you think what McNabb did with his feet - as a mobile passer who ran only to throw, is ANYTHING like the stucture that the Ravens HAD* to implement with Lamar as an offensive supplement, then we really need to sit down for a long ass chat.
The issues many Browns fans aren't recognizing is a simple one. The Browns have HAD some talent on these rosters in current and previous years. The QB play was just so damn dismal that it didn't allow them to be even remotely competitive. Until a local boy like Brian Hoyer and Young Shanahan showed that you only need a slightly-above average QB to actually win some games and allow the rest of said talent and quality coaching to take you to 8-8 (ish) Imagine if Jim O neil isn't the defensive coordinator in 2014 and we draft Khalil Mack, Aaron Donald or Mike Evans? (like I wanted) That squad would have gone to the wildcard with Brian Hoyer at QB.
Another example would be the season before Alex Smith arrived in KC. 1 win to what...? 9-10 wins? Not spectacular QB play, but just good enough at the most important position on the field.
Baker himself isn't solely responsible for the Browns turn-around so much as it an infusion of young talent and decent, NOT great, coaches. The Bengals had playoff appearances with Andy Dalton and Marvin Lewis for Christ sake.
Good points; but it sure seemed like the ONLY guy considering McNabb out of SU's Veer Option offense was Andy Reid. And when you get right down to it - it was a similar offense to the one Brett Favre played in at So Miss (whom Andy Reid helped coach up into a WCO QB) which IMO made Reid more interested in what other teams/scouts considered to unconventional for the pro game at the time. Look at how much that has changed today since Reid showed you look at the player to determine whether he can fit what you want him do rather than the system. Once upon a time, people used to talk about avoiding BYU system QBs before guys like Jim McMahon and Steve Young bucked that trend. What bucks a trend? A player or 2 that shows you on film why you should do so...
As for Cleveland, I agree with a lot of the points you made but I pointed out what the record was the last 34 games before Baker got behind Center. 1-32-1. And the first game he appeared in the team was behind by 14 points with the same players Baker had. All of a sudden the offense moved the ball (allowing the defense to rest) while it put points on the board to erase the deficit and win. There were COUNTLESS reasons this franchise needed to use the 1st overall pick on a QB.
I'm not saying he's the BEST QB in the league - but I AM saying I'm not nearly as excited about going back to hoping all the stars and planets align for this franchise to find the right QB while it goes through countless HCs and OCs that never allow the continuity to allow a young QB to succeed. Again, there was a t-shirt full of QBs that couldn't succeed in Cleveland. We can debate the reasons for failure until we're blue in the face. The point is Baker looked pretty good in the first system with sufficient room for growth of course. I consider you a very intelligent football guy so I'm sure you know that losing both starting Tackles on opening day vrs TN as well as the backup LT - wasn't setting this team up for success. Solution found by drafting a Tackle in round 1 and signing Conklin the next year which unfolded into an 11-5 season plus a playoff win. More guys are playing hurt and missing games this year than last year so we're not surviving injury as well. And UNFORTUNATELY, Baker has not played well which gets the debates going if he's worthy of committing to.
As for the talent thing, poor Joe Thomas had only 1 winning season here - and that was with Derek Anderson as his QB. Outside of that, if I walked up and told him I can't wait until we get rid of Baker for a REAL QB - what do you think he'd say to me?
Good points;
At this very moment I dont have the time to give this a full response, quoting so to remind myself to do so later when I'm out of work and the gym.
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And maybe that response would be valid if, and only if your knowledge of the game of football exceeded that of Kevin Stefansky. And not just a knee jerk reaction to scream the name of whoever the backup quarterback might possibly be. Kelly Holcomb Mike Peggel Don Strock...
Your position demands the acknowledgment that the coach doesn't know what hes doing.
WSS
That's a clowns take on my words.
Stefs command of the game, X's and O's is superior, no arguing that. While I may not be as fluent in the language, I can still understand the conversation at a high level. But "football isn't a game played, coached or managed by geniuses". (A former 1st round pick told me that a long time ago.)
It's done by men capable of making (very obvious) mistakes. Intelligent people can still do dumb things from time to time.
Edit: sort of like calling a HB draw on 4th and 9. I've seen 2 coaches do that. Both coaches know more than myself, but that doesn't absolve them from my understanding that, in the moment, it was a piss poor decision.
That's a clowns take on my words.
Clowns take? Well GIGO. Anyway your statement assumes that if Case Kenum had started that game the Browns would have won by more points then 3. Could be. There's a reason people bet on the game's right?
Stefs command of the game, X's and O's is superior, no arguing that. While I may not be as fluent in the language, I can still understand the conversation at a high level. But "football isn't a game played, coached or managed by geniuses". (A former 1st round pick told me that a long time ago.)
It's done by men capable of making (very obvious) mistakes. Intelligent people can still do dumb things from time to time.
Edit: sort of like calling a HB draw on 4th and 9. I've seen 2 coaches do that. Both coaches know more than myself, but that doesn't absolve them from my understanding that, in the moment, it was a piss poor decision.
No doubt somewhere there's spreadsheet that lists quite a few cases of calling a halfback draw on 4th and long. Just remember every single play in every single game somebody on one side of the ball or the other made a miscalculation.
Don't forget to shower after you leave the gym
WSS
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There are times I just hate the fans. I suppose Baker feels the same way. There's probably not a player in the league that hates not playing up to his potential as badly as he does.. There's a reason that the backup quarterback isn't starting for another team. Usually that reason is that the starter is as good or better even at 80% . At any rate these are my guys these are the guys I root for these are the guys I support. If they fall short I feel shitty just like they do. No doubt we all know fans who scream and bitch and curse their own team for every mistake. What fun can that be? Screw those people.
WSS
Screw those people.
Ouch, I scream and curse during the game. I curse at Baker/coaches/refs/defense but I also scream their praises. It’s all good how you want to enjoy your 3 hours of fandom. I won’t judge.
Unless it’s Pittsburgh, screw them.
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2018 rookie year/Hue and Baker operated well in a QB friendly system. I recall watching him slide in the pocket and create his passing lanes as well as Russ Wilson. The formula in that year was run the ball and be opportunistic in run/pass situations (playaction)…live to fight another day on 3rd and long.
2019 Baker left clean pockets and had one of the lowest QB ratings in 2019 when faced with no pressure…but we had many point to our offensive tackle situation and our HC as the main issues.We said new system, COVID and OBJ in 2020, but we had hope when he turned things around in the second half.
We will use injuries this year.
I listened to Jimmy Johnson yesterday echo what many in here are saying…we have a tough decision “but if you don’t have a QB you better sign him”. That’s fiscally irresponsible in my opinion knowing very well he will definitely command more money than what he’s making now. And there will be a time in his 2nd 3rd year of this new contract where Joel won’t be there…Chubb may not be here a different regime as well that might want sit in empty set 5 WRs split out.
And we’ve had Way too many built in excuses and uncertainty to sign him now or this offseason and I would definitely do some major due diligence this offseason finding a QB (and fixing the middle of our defense too).
I am not ungrateful he’s become a great leader…he’s kept his mouth closed lately and focused on being a QB but he’s limited…can be inconsistent week to week with ball placement (others have magnified these points and added others) and I don’t think reads defenses well enough at this level.
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And maybe that response would be valid if, and only if your knowledge of the game of football exceeded that of Kevin Stefansky. And not just a knee jerk reaction to scream the name of whoever the backup quarterback might possibly be. Kelly Holcomb Mike Peggel Don Strock...
Your position demands the acknowledgment that the coach doesn't know what hes doing.
WSS
That's a clowns take on my words.
Stefs command of the game, X's and O's is superior, no arguing that. While I may not be as fluent in the language, I can still understand the conversation at a high level. But "football isn't a game played, coached or managed by geniuses". (A former 1st round pick told me that a long time ago.)
It's done by men capable of making (very obvious) mistakes. Intelligent people can still do dumb things from time to time.
Edit: sort of like calling a HB draw on 4th and 9. I've seen 2 coaches do that. Both coaches know more than myself, but that doesn't absolve them from my understanding that, in the moment, it was a piss poor decision.
That's a clowns take on my words.
Stefs command of the game, X's and O's is superior, no arguing that. While I may not be as fluent in the language, I can still understand the conversation at a high level. But "football isn't a game played, coached or managed by geniuses". (A former 1st round pick told me that a long time ago.)
It's done by men capable of making (very obvious) mistakes. Intelligent people can still do dumb things from time to time.
Edit: sort of like calling a HB draw on 4th and 9. I've seen 2 coaches do that. Both coaches know more than myself, but that doesn't absolve them from my understanding that, in the moment, it was a piss poor decision.
I like Stef but he was a dumb fool yesterday.
And although the team dealt with a lot of stuff, Stef had some fortunate outcomes last year. Yesterday we had a 3rd and 1 at their 40 and we were seemingly driving well using the run and we take the shot downfield…last year 3rd and 1 Baker hits the playaction deep ball. This year he misses it and our backup tackle gets a hold call. Baker isn’t right…we are dealing with some new WRs and WR roles being modified…that wasn’t the time. I can appreciate a risk but a little situational awareness there could have gone a long way and put that game away at that time.
Yesterday Should have been a Chubb/Johnson game with Baker handing off…just like 2018.
The Charger game draw play that you brought up…the week before he did a 3rd 22 draw play that worked with Hunt. Not an outrageous play but probably not a high percentage heck very low percentage (getting a first down). But the next week he goes back to the well in a key spot? Don’t press your luck and don’t get too cute. Case of a Smart guy out smarting himself…happening a lot this year.
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Screw those people.
Ouch, I scream and curse during the game. I curse at Baker/coaches/refs/defense but I also scream their praises. It’s all good how you want to enjoy your 3 hours of fandom. I won’t judge.
Unless it’s Pittsburgh, screw them.
Ouch, I scream and curse during the game. I curse at Baker/coaches/refs/defense but I also scream their praises. It’s all good how you want to enjoy your 3 hours of fandom. I won’t judge.
Unless it’s Pittsburgh, screw them.
Don't misunderstand i yell and drop F bombs but I'm not cursing out my guys.
The only time I get angry with the Cleveland Browns player is if I get the feeling he doesn't give a shit and is hostile to the town. Nobody likes to fuck up nobody likes to lose. If I blow the words to a song in a live performance nobody is as unhappy about it than I am. And it bothers me lots longer than anybody who was at the performance.
WSS
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That's a clowns take on my words.
Stefs command of the game, X's and O's is superior, no arguing that. While I may not be as fluent in the language, I can still understand the conversation at a high level. But "football isn't a game played, coached or managed by geniuses". (A former 1st round pick told me that a long time ago.)
It's done by men capable of making (very obvious) mistakes. Intelligent people can still do dumb things from time to time.
Edit: sort of like calling a HB draw on 4th and 9. I've seen 2 coaches do that. Both coaches know more than myself, but that doesn't absolve them from my understanding that, in the moment, it was a piss poor decision.
I like Stef but he was a dumb fool yesterday.
And although the team dealt with a lot of stuff, Stef had some fortunate outcomes last year. Yesterday we had a 3rd and 1 at their 40 and we were seemingly driving well using the run and we take the shot downfield…last year 3rd and 1 Baker hits the playaction deep ball. This year he misses it and our backup tackle gets a hold call. Baker isn’t right…we are dealing with some new WRs and WR roles being modified…that wasn’t the time. I can appreciate a risk but a little situational awareness there could have gone a long way and put that game away at that time.
Yesterday Should have been a Chubb/Johnson game with Baker handing off…just like 2018.
The Charger game draw play that you brought up…the week before he did a 3rd 22 draw play that worked with Hunt. Not an outrageous play but probably not a high percentage heck very low percentage (getting a first down). But the next week he goes back to the well in a key spot? Don’t press your luck and don’t get too cute. Case of a Smart guy out smarting himself…happening a lot this year.
Yesterday we had a 3rd and 1 at their 40 and we were seemingly driving well using the run and we take the shot downfield…last year 3rd and 1 Baker hits the playaction deep ball. This year he misses it and our backup tackle gets a hold call. Baker isn’t right…we are dealing with some new WRs and WR roles being modified…that wasn’t the time. I can appreciate a risk but a little situational awareness there could have gone a long way and put that game away at that time.
Yesterday Should have been a Chubb/Johnson game with Baker handing off…just like 2018.
The Charger game draw play that you brought up…the week before he did a 3rd 22 draw play that worked with Hunt. Not an outrageous play but probably not a high percentage heck very low percentage (getting a first down). But the next week he goes back to the well in a key spot? Don’t press your luck and don’t get too cute. Case of a Smart guy out smarting himself…happening a lot this year.
The 3rd and 1 bothered me because there are scenarios to take that shot. Yesterday wasn't one of them and I've spoken about Stef sometimes being a bit too "by the numbers" analytical. Those tools are to help support your decision making, not make the decisions for you.
No worries. I like reading what you have to say. You've opened up my thinking a lot in here over the years...
That's high praise, very kind of you. Not sure I deserve it but I thank you all the same. To answer your points as best I can in order.
1st
- McNabb was about the absolute dead last of the QB's to be drafted high coming from offenses that even sprinkled in the option. And keep in mind, 'Cuse wasn't a veer-option exclusive team. They played a great deal under center with some pretty modern (at the time) concepts. Including using McNabb's legs to get outside on rollouts. The veer they tossed in was an offensive supplement to a spotty running game. Far as I can find re: Donovan running reads and pulls ...
135 carries 438yards 8tds Not exactly Braxton Miller numbers working out of the option, veer and QB power? Still plenty of work in the I and 2 back sets and timing passing game. Cliche' "wyco", as you alluded to. If you go back and watch some of the tapes from Youtube, you can see the flashes of a strong armed slinger with sound mechanics and decent athletic ability. I don't see a lot of designed reads intended to let him run wild. His legs were always an "in case". Steve Young is a great example. Fantastic QB, HOF, great passer. He was a good athlete in case shit broke down, it was just a secondary weapon in the arsenal. Remember about McNabb though that pick was boo'd LOUDLY and not so quietly questioned in the Philly offices. (And I mean loud boo's even for Philly terms) To call Mcnabb an "option" QB like he came from a Rich Rodriguez offense is a disservice to his abilities as a passer before being drafted.
Speaking of McNabb and Farve such... don't forget both QB's had early struggles in their careers adjusting to the NFL. Hell, for as much fun as Brett was to watch, nobody cost him more trips to the Superbowl than he did himself. And that includes John Randle.
2nd
- Baker coming in during the NYJ game. We all remember that night and had a ton of fun, I remember it well myself. Yes there was energy and excitement when Baker entered like any young rookie QB you want to see. And yes he did a fine job helping to engineer a comeback. Let's not get so lost in Baker that we forget the defense only allowed a FG after the break which let a rookie QB have the opportunity to move the ball against a bad Jets team. We also did it by tossing in things we hadn't previously shown with Tyrod (for reasons I can't understand) like the couple opening RPO's after the half. Truth is, it's incredibly hard to gauge the potential of those teams because of how incompetent Hue was. But don't forget Baker struggled afterwards, even against other bad defenses. He had his ups and downs and only began to find consistency when Freddy and co. cut down the offense, went back under center and let the beast we know as Chubb power the car. Baker can steer, but the running game has been the engine since that day. To the point of Bakers stats suffer disproportionately to damn near every other elite, good or above average QB in going from play action to straight drops. This is a trend, if you search for my posts, I highlighted as far back as the 2017 season when I broke down EVERY snap of Bakers against Oklahoma State.
Here's the link. 26th post down.
I even had a little nod to Mason Rudolph back then even though I wasn't watching him. That one turned out very prophetic as well. I'm VERY proud of my scouting and breakdown in this instance because it goes to show you what you really find when you have the eye and put in the work. Which circles back around to my mentioning of Bakers stats suffering - the shortcomings I listed in that very post from 11/17 (4 years ago now) haven't changed. THAT is my biggest concern with our QB. The deficiencies he, or any other passer, would have to overcome to be a franchise player have not been overcome in the slightest. In the NFL they've actually been magnified. Starting with the excess straight drops and emphasis the coaches tried to put on a modern vertical passing game at the start of the 2019 season. Downfield stresses I've mentioned teams like KC, LAC, TB, SEA (went away from, don't know why?) and BUF run. Yes, I am aware of our OT play for that season as well. BELIEVE Me, you can find my posts on here highlighting it. However in the move of addressing said OT spot in the 2020 off-season, we also brought in a HC that tailored an offense similar to what bloomed Bakers initial success his rookie season. The drawback is, in order to improve that offense and to consistently stay ahead of an ever changing defensive curve, you have to be able to execute high level concepts against a myriad of coverages. Most importantly, you HAVE to be able to threaten every level of a defense with these concepts. Baker, even dating back to last year, has been hit and miss executing these concepts to their fullest (vertical) potential. I highlighted a missed opportunity to Odell against the Cowboys as one of a handful of examples.
We have injury concerns and limitations at our WR corps. The latter needs to be addressed along with a long-term solution to our RT situation. But underneath that all, I still have my doubts that Baker can be the QB who will allow this team to invest middle round draft capital in skill players and help to turn them into stars. I've watched his ball placement since college, I've watched his downfield shots, I've watched his eyes. I've seen SOME improvement, but that improvement is, I hesitate to say "marginal"... but it can be washed away by some of the incredibly questionable decisions and NON-decisions I've watched Mayfield make.
I'm in no hurry to get rid of Baker, none what-so-ever. Which is the thing I'm hoping you and anyone else who reads this understands. I hope we don't get rid of Baker because that would mean he has risen to the level of QB every organization in the NFL Needs in order to keep open a 10 year superbowl window. But I also have to be realistic. Baker hasn't been so brilliant that he has become irreplaceable either. Speaking of 2017, Case Keenum lead a VERY similar offense, although with better receivers compared to ours currently (but our RB's are WAY better) with the Vikings. A Vikings squad that had some of our current coaches, most notably Stef. Peep those Baker 2020 stats and compare them with Case 2017. You will be shocked to see how damn close they are in every meaningful category. Within a percentile of each other actually, all the way down to rushing stats.
- 3rd and finally
As for Joe Thomas His career was wasted by questionable coaches but an ownership and management staff that couldn't identify and maintain talent if it bit them in the ass.I laughed at the Brady Quinn pick because I saw just how bad he was at anticipating zone coverages against the Buckeyes. Which was a full year before he was even drafted.
Hell, I'd slap you if you walked up and said you "couldn't wait" to get rid of Baker. It's rude, dismissive, and bad math. The QB generally receives undue credit or undue praise. Which is why I try my absolute best to understand how complex this type of thing is. Hell Derek Anderson, if anything, actually PROVES my point. If you get a coaching staff worth their salt, they can take marginal talent and still form a competitive and possibly even winning team. Kyle Shanahan is my favorite example of that. That dude could take 11 of us off the street and average 20ppg. What this boils down to me ultimately is cost. I cannot, as of typing this, endorse paying Baker even Tannehill money. There's no metric that shows he has earned it other than "heart" and "competitive" and "leader"... neat. Again, if those were real things we got paid on Timmy Tea-biscuit would be a billion dollar athlete by now.
However I'm not so arrogant as to say it's not possible Baker could STILL get to that point of earning it with the Browns. Which is why I whole-heartedly believe he will play out his 5th year option. I also whole-heartedly believe that if this organization wants to make that decision (which is about a calendar year from now) as easy as humanly possible, they need to shut Baker down now. Get him healthy, address skill positions and RT in the off-season and give the coaches every possible tool to help make Barry's evaluation and calculation an accurate one. Because in 12 months there will be no more "yeah, but XYZ".
It'll be "Baker healthy? - yeah"
"He getting it done? - no" "Welp, here's our offer to reflect that"
-
Yesterday we had a 3rd and 1 at their 40 and we were seemingly driving well using the run and we take the shot downfield…last year 3rd and 1 Baker hits the playaction deep ball. This year he misses it and our backup tackle gets a hold call. Baker isn’t right…we are dealing with some new WRs and WR roles being modified…that wasn’t the time. I can appreciate a risk but a little situational awareness there could have gone a long way and put that game away at that time.
Yesterday Should have been a Chubb/Johnson game with Baker handing off…just like 2018.
The Charger game draw play that you brought up…the week before he did a 3rd 22 draw play that worked with Hunt. Not an outrageous play but probably not a high percentage heck very low percentage (getting a first down). But the next week he goes back to the well in a key spot? Don’t press your luck and don’t get too cute. Case of a Smart guy out smarting himself…happening a lot this year.
The 3rd and 1 bothered me because there are scenarios to take that shot. Yesterday wasn't one of them and I've spoken about Stef sometimes being a bit too "by the numbers" analytical. Those tools are to help support your decision making, not make the decisions for you.
No worries. I like reading what you have to say. You've opened up my thinking a lot in here over the years...
That's high praise, very kind of you. Not sure I deserve it but I thank you all the same. To answer your points as best I can in order.
1st
- McNabb was about the absolute dead last of the QB's to be drafted high coming from offenses that even sprinkled in the option. And keep in mind, 'Cuse wasn't a veer-option exclusive team. They played a great deal under center with some pretty modern (at the time) concepts. Including using McNabb's legs to get outside on rollouts. The veer they tossed in was an offensive supplement to a spotty running game. Far as I can find re: Donovan running reads and pulls ...
135 carries 438yards 8tds Not exactly Braxton Miller numbers working out of the option, veer and QB power? Still plenty of work in the I and 2 back sets and timing passing game. Cliche' "wyco", as you alluded to. If you go back and watch some of the tapes from Youtube, you can see the flashes of a strong armed slinger with sound mechanics and decent athletic ability. I don't see a lot of designed reads intended to let him run wild. His legs were always an "in case". Steve Young is a great example. Fantastic QB, HOF, great passer. He was a good athlete in case shit broke down, it was just a secondary weapon in the arsenal. Remember about McNabb though that pick was boo'd LOUDLY and not so quietly questioned in the Philly offices. (And I mean loud boo's even for Philly terms) To call Mcnabb an "option" QB like he came from a Rich Rodriguez offense is a disservice to his abilities as a passer before being drafted.
Speaking of McNabb and Farve such... don't forget both QB's had early struggles in their careers adjusting to the NFL. Hell, for as much fun as Brett was to watch, nobody cost him more trips to the Superbowl than he did himself. And that includes John Randle.
2nd
- Baker coming in during the NYJ game. We all remember that night and had a ton of fun, I remember it well myself. Yes there was energy and excitement when Baker entered like any young rookie QB you want to see. And yes he did a fine job helping to engineer a comeback. Let's not get so lost in Baker that we forget the defense only allowed a FG after the break which let a rookie QB have the opportunity to move the ball against a bad Jets team. We also did it by tossing in things we hadn't previously shown with Tyrod (for reasons I can't understand) like the couple opening RPO's after the half. Truth is, it's incredibly hard to gauge the potential of those teams because of how incompetent Hue was. But don't forget Baker struggled afterwards, even against other bad defenses. He had his ups and downs and only began to find consistency when Freddy and co. cut down the offense, went back under center and let the beast we know as Chubb power the car. Baker can steer, but the running game has been the engine since that day. To the point of Bakers stats suffer disproportionately to damn near every other elite, good or above average QB in going from play action to straight drops. This is a trend, if you search for my posts, I highlighted as far back as the 2017 season when I broke down EVERY snap of Bakers against Oklahoma State.
Here's the link. 26th post down.
I even had a little nod to Mason Rudolph back then even though I wasn't watching him. That one turned out very prophetic as well. I'm VERY proud of my scouting and breakdown in this instance because it goes to show you what you really find when you have the eye and put in the work. Which circles back around to my mentioning of Bakers stats suffering - the shortcomings I listed in that very post from 11/17 (4 years ago now) haven't changed. THAT is my biggest concern with our QB. The deficiencies he, or any other passer, would have to overcome to be a franchise player have not been overcome in the slightest. In the NFL they've actually been magnified. Starting with the excess straight drops and emphasis the coaches tried to put on a modern vertical passing game at the start of the 2019 season. Downfield stresses I've mentioned teams like KC, LAC, TB, SEA (went away from, don't know why?) and BUF run. Yes, I am aware of our OT play for that season as well. BELIEVE Me, you can find my posts on here highlighting it. However in the move of addressing said OT spot in the 2020 off-season, we also brought in a HC that tailored an offense similar to what bloomed Bakers initial success his rookie season. The drawback is, in order to improve that offense and to consistently stay ahead of an ever changing defensive curve, you have to be able to execute high level concepts against a myriad of coverages. Most importantly, you HAVE to be able to threaten every level of a defense with these concepts. Baker, even dating back to last year, has been hit and miss executing these concepts to their fullest (vertical) potential. I highlighted a missed opportunity to Odell against the Cowboys as one of a handful of examples.
We have injury concerns and limitations at our WR corps. The latter needs to be addressed along with a long-term solution to our RT situation. But underneath that all, I still have my doubts that Baker can be the QB who will allow this team to invest middle round draft capital in skill players and help to turn them into stars. I've watched his ball placement since college, I've watched his downfield shots, I've watched his eyes. I've seen SOME improvement, but that improvement is, I hesitate to say "marginal"... but it can be washed away by some of the incredibly questionable decisions and NON-decisions I've watched Mayfield make.
I'm in no hurry to get rid of Baker, none what-so-ever. Which is the thing I'm hoping you and anyone else who reads this understands. I hope we don't get rid of Baker because that would mean he has risen to the level of QB every organization in the NFL Needs in order to keep open a 10 year superbowl window. But I also have to be realistic. Baker hasn't been so brilliant that he has become irreplaceable either. Speaking of 2017, Case Keenum lead a VERY similar offense, although with better receivers compared to ours currently (but our RB's are WAY better) with the Vikings. A Vikings squad that had some of our current coaches, most notably Stef. Peep those Baker 2020 stats and compare them with Case 2017. You will be shocked to see how damn close they are in every meaningful category. Within a percentile of each other actually, all the way down to rushing stats.
- 3rd and finally
As for Joe Thomas His career was wasted by questionable coaches but an ownership and management staff that couldn't identify and maintain talent if it bit them in the ass.I laughed at the Brady Quinn pick because I saw just how bad he was at anticipating zone coverages against the Buckeyes. Which was a full year before he was even drafted.
Hell, I'd slap you if you walked up and said you "couldn't wait" to get rid of Baker. It's rude, dismissive, and bad math. The QB generally receives undue credit or undue praise. Which is why I try my absolute best to understand how complex this type of thing is. Hell Derek Anderson, if anything, actually PROVES my point. If you get a coaching staff worth their salt, they can take marginal talent and still form a competitive and possibly even winning team. Kyle Shanahan is my favorite example of that. That dude could take 11 of us off the street and average 20ppg. What this boils down to me ultimately is cost. I cannot, as of typing this, endorse paying Baker even Tannehill money. There's no metric that shows he has earned it other than "heart" and "competitive" and "leader"... neat. Again, if those were real things we got paid on Timmy Tea-biscuit would be a billion dollar athlete by now.
However I'm not so arrogant as to say it's not possible Baker could STILL get to that point of earning it with the Browns. Which is why I whole-heartedly believe he will play out his 5th year option. I also whole-heartedly believe that if this organization wants to make that decision (which is about a calendar year from now) as easy as humanly possible, they need to shut Baker down now. Get him healthy, address skill positions and RT in the off-season and give the coaches every possible tool to help make Barry's evaluation and calculation an accurate one. Because in 12 months there will be no more "yeah, but XYZ".
It'll be "Baker healthy? - yeah"
"He getting it done? - no" "Welp, here's our offer to reflect that"
The 3rd and 1 bothered me because there are scenarios to take that shot. Yesterday wasn't one of them and I've spoken about Stef sometimes being a bit too "by the numbers" analytical. Those tools are to help support your decision making, not make the decisions for you.
That's high praise, very kind of you. Not sure I deserve it but I thank you all the same. To answer your points as best I can in order.
1st
- McNabb was about the absolute dead last of the QB's to be drafted high coming from offenses that even sprinkled in the option. And keep in mind, 'Cuse wasn't a veer-option exclusive team. They played a great deal under center with some pretty modern (at the time) concepts. Including using McNabb's legs to get outside on rollouts. The veer they tossed in was an offensive supplement to a spotty running game. Far as I can find re: Donovan running reads and pulls ...
135 carries 438yards 8tds Not exactly Braxton Miller numbers working out of the option, veer and QB power? Still plenty of work in the I and 2 back sets and timing passing game. Cliche' "wyco", as you alluded to. If you go back and watch some of the tapes from Youtube, you can see the flashes of a strong armed slinger with sound mechanics and decent athletic ability. I don't see a lot of designed reads intended to let him run wild. His legs were always an "in case". Steve Young is a great example. Fantastic QB, HOF, great passer. He was a good athlete in case shit broke down, it was just a secondary weapon in the arsenal. Remember about McNabb though that pick was boo'd LOUDLY and not so quietly questioned in the Philly offices. (And I mean loud boo's even for Philly terms) To call Mcnabb an "option" QB like he came from a Rich Rodriguez offense is a disservice to his abilities as a passer before being drafted.
Speaking of McNabb and Farve such... don't forget both QB's had early struggles in their careers adjusting to the NFL. Hell, for as much fun as Brett was to watch, nobody cost him more trips to the Superbowl than he did himself. And that includes John Randle.
2nd
- Baker coming in during the NYJ game. We all remember that night and had a ton of fun, I remember it well myself. Yes there was energy and excitement when Baker entered like any young rookie QB you want to see. And yes he did a fine job helping to engineer a comeback. Let's not get so lost in Baker that we forget the defense only allowed a FG after the break which let a rookie QB have the opportunity to move the ball. We also did it by tossing in things we hadn't previously shown with Tyrod (for reasons I can't understand) like the couple opening RPO's after the half. Truth is, it's incredibly hard to gauge the potential of those teams because of how incompetent Hue was. But don't forget Baker struggled afterwards, had his ups and down and only began to find consistency when Freddy and co. cut down the offense, went back under center and let the beast we know as Chubb power the car. Baker can steer, but the running game has been the engine since that day. To the point of Bakers stats suffer disproportionately to damn near every other elite, good or above average QB in going from play action to straight drops. This is a trend, if you search for my posts, I highlighted as far back as the 2017 season when I broke down EVERY snap of Bakers against Oklahoma State.
Here's the link. 26th post down.
I even had a little nod to Mason Rudolph back then even though I wasn't watching him. That one turned out very prophetic as well. I'm VERY proud of my scouting and breakdown in this instance because it goes to show you what you really find when you have the eye and put in the work. Which circles back around to my mentioning of Bakers stats suffering - the shortcomings I listed in that very post from 11/17 (4 years ago now) haven't changed. THAT is my biggest concern with our QB. The deficiencies he, or any other passer, would have to overcome to be a franchise player have not been overcome in the slightest. In the NFL they've actually been magnified. Starting with the excess straight drops and emphasis the coaches tried to put on a modern vertical passing game at the start of the 2019 season. Downfield stresses I've mentioned teams like KC, LAC, TB, SEA (went away from, don't know why?) and BUF run. Yes, I am aware of our OT play for that season as well. BELIEVE Me, you can find my posts on here highlighting it. However in the move of addressing said OT spot in the 2020 off-season, we also brought in a HC that tailored an offense similar to what bloomed Bakers initial success his rookie season. The drawback is, in order to improve that offense and to consistently stay ahead of an ever changing defensive curve, you have to be able to execute high level concepts against a myriad of coverages. Most importantly, you HAVE to be able to threaten every level of a defense with these concepts. Baker, even dating back to last year, has been hit and miss executing these concepts to their fullest (vertical) potential. I highlighted a missed opportunity to Odell against the Cowboys as one of a handful of examples.
We have injury concerns and limitations at our WR corps. The latter needs to be addressed along with a long-term solution to our RT situation. But underneath that all, I still have my doubts that Baker can be the QB who will allow this team to invest middle round draft capital in skill players and help to turn them into stars. I've watched his ball placement since college, I've watched his downfield shots, I've watched his eyes. I've seen SOME improvement, but that improvement is, I hesitate to say "marginal"... but it can be washed away by some of the incredibly questionable decisions and NON-decisions I've watched Mayfield make.
I'm in no hurry to get rid of Baker, none what-so-ever. Which is the thing I'm hoping you and anyone else who reads this understands. I hope we don't get rid of Baker because that would mean he has risen to the level of QB every organization in the NFL Needs in order to keep open a 10 year superbowl window. But I also have to be realistic. Baker hasn't been so brilliant that he has become irreplaceable either. Speaking of 2017, Case Keenum lead a VERY similar offense, although with better receivers compared to ours currently (but our RB's are WAY better) with the Vikings. A Vikings squad that had some of our current coaches, most notably Stef. Peep those Baker 2020 stats and compare them with Case 2017. You will be shocked to see how damn close they are in every meaningful category. Within a percentile of each other actually, all the way down to rushing stats.
- 3rd and finally
As for Joe Thomas His career was wasted by questionable coaches but an ownership and management staff that couldn't identify and maintain talent if it bit them in the ass.I laughed at the Brady Quinn pick because I saw just how bad he was at anticipating zone coverages against the Buckeyes. Which was a full year before he was even drafted.
Hell, I'd slap you if you walked up and said you "couldn't wait" to get rid of Baker. It's rude, dismissive, and bad math. The QB generally receives undue credit or undue praise. Which is why I try my absolute best to understand how complex this type of thing is. Hell Derek Anderson, if anything, actually PROVES my point. If you get a coaching staff worth their salt, they can take marginal talent and still form a competitive and possibly even winning team. Kyle Shanahan is my favorite example of that. That dude could take 11 of us off the street and average 20ppg. What this boils down to me ultimately is cost. I cannot, as of typing this, endorse paying Baker even Tannehill money. There's no metric that shows he has earned it other than "heart" and "competitive" and "leader"... neat. Again, if those were real things we got paid on Timmy Tea-biscuit would be a billion dollar athlete by now.
However I'm not so arrogant as to say it's not possible Baker could STILL get to that point of earning it with the Browns. Which is why I whole-heartedly believe he will play out his 5th year option. I also whole-heartedly believe that if this organization wants to make that decision (which is about a calendar year from now) as easy as humanly possible, they need to shut Baker down now. Get him healthy, address skill positions and RT in the off-season and give the coaches every possible tool to help make Barry's evaluation and calculation an accurate one. Because in 12 months there will be no more "yeah, but XYZ".
It'll be "Baker healthy? - yeah"
"He getting it done? - no" "Welp, here's our offer to reflect that"
Too long, did not read, lololololol.
I had to do it.
-
Yesterday we had a 3rd and 1 at their 40 and we were seemingly driving well using the run and we take the shot downfield…last year 3rd and 1 Baker hits the playaction deep ball. This year he misses it and our backup tackle gets a hold call. Baker isn’t right…we are dealing with some new WRs and WR roles being modified…that wasn’t the time. I can appreciate a risk but a little situational awareness there could have gone a long way and put that game away at that time.
Yesterday Should have been a Chubb/Johnson game with Baker handing off…just like 2018.
The Charger game draw play that you brought up…the week before he did a 3rd 22 draw play that worked with Hunt. Not an outrageous play but probably not a high percentage heck very low percentage (getting a first down). But the next week he goes back to the well in a key spot? Don’t press your luck and don’t get too cute. Case of a Smart guy out smarting himself…happening a lot this year.
The 3rd and 1 bothered me because there are scenarios to take that shot. Yesterday wasn't one of them and I've spoken about Stef sometimes being a bit too "by the numbers" analytical. Those tools are to help support your decision making, not make the decisions for you.
No worries. I like reading what you have to say. You've opened up my thinking a lot in here over the years...
That's high praise, very kind of you. Not sure I deserve it but I thank you all the same. To answer your points as best I can in order.
1st
- McNabb was about the absolute dead last of the QB's to be drafted high coming from offenses that even sprinkled in the option. And keep in mind, 'Cuse wasn't a veer-option exclusive team. They played a great deal under center with some pretty modern (at the time) concepts. Including using McNabb's legs to get outside on rollouts. The veer they tossed in was an offensive supplement to a spotty running game. Far as I can find re: Donovan running reads and pulls ...
135 carries 438yards 8tds Not exactly Braxton Miller numbers working out of the option, veer and QB power? Still plenty of work in the I and 2 back sets and timing passing game. Cliche' "wyco", as you alluded to. If you go back and watch some of the tapes from Youtube, you can see the flashes of a strong armed slinger with sound mechanics and decent athletic ability. I don't see a lot of designed reads intended to let him run wild. His legs were always an "in case". Steve Young is a great example. Fantastic QB, HOF, great passer. He was a good athlete in case shit broke down, it was just a secondary weapon in the arsenal. Remember about McNabb though that pick was boo'd LOUDLY and not so quietly questioned in the Philly offices. (And I mean loud boo's even for Philly terms) To call Mcnabb an "option" QB like he came from a Rich Rodriguez offense is a disservice to his abilities as a passer before being drafted.
Speaking of McNabb and Farve such... don't forget both QB's had early struggles in their careers adjusting to the NFL. Hell, for as much fun as Brett was to watch, nobody cost him more trips to the Superbowl than he did himself. And that includes John Randle.
2nd
- Baker coming in during the NYJ game. We all remember that night and had a ton of fun, I remember it well myself. Yes there was energy and excitement when Baker entered like any young rookie QB you want to see. And yes he did a fine job helping to engineer a comeback. Let's not get so lost in Baker that we forget the defense only allowed a FG after the break which let a rookie QB have the opportunity to move the ball against a bad Jets team. We also did it by tossing in things we hadn't previously shown with Tyrod (for reasons I can't understand) like the couple opening RPO's after the half. Truth is, it's incredibly hard to gauge the potential of those teams because of how incompetent Hue was. But don't forget Baker struggled afterwards, even against other bad defenses. He had his ups and downs and only began to find consistency when Freddy and co. cut down the offense, went back under center and let the beast we know as Chubb power the car. Baker can steer, but the running game has been the engine since that day. To the point of Bakers stats suffer disproportionately to damn near every other elite, good or above average QB in going from play action to straight drops. This is a trend, if you search for my posts, I highlighted as far back as the 2017 season when I broke down EVERY snap of Bakers against Oklahoma State.
Here's the link. 26th post down.
I even had a little nod to Mason Rudolph back then even though I wasn't watching him. That one turned out very prophetic as well. I'm VERY proud of my scouting and breakdown in this instance because it goes to show you what you really find when you have the eye and put in the work. Which circles back around to my mentioning of Bakers stats suffering - the shortcomings I listed in that very post from 11/17 (4 years ago now) haven't changed. THAT is my biggest concern with our QB. The deficiencies he, or any other passer, would have to overcome to be a franchise player have not been overcome in the slightest. In the NFL they've actually been magnified. Starting with the excess straight drops and emphasis the coaches tried to put on a modern vertical passing game at the start of the 2019 season. Downfield stresses I've mentioned teams like KC, LAC, TB, SEA (went away from, don't know why?) and BUF run. Yes, I am aware of our OT play for that season as well. BELIEVE Me, you can find my posts on here highlighting it. However in the move of addressing said OT spot in the 2020 off-season, we also brought in a HC that tailored an offense similar to what bloomed Bakers initial success his rookie season. The drawback is, in order to improve that offense and to consistently stay ahead of an ever changing defensive curve, you have to be able to execute high level concepts against a myriad of coverages. Most importantly, you HAVE to be able to threaten every level of a defense with these concepts. Baker, even dating back to last year, has been hit and miss executing these concepts to their fullest (vertical) potential. I highlighted a missed opportunity to Odell against the Cowboys as one of a handful of examples.
We have injury concerns and limitations at our WR corps. The latter needs to be addressed along with a long-term solution to our RT situation. But underneath that all, I still have my doubts that Baker can be the QB who will allow this team to invest middle round draft capital in skill players and help to turn them into stars. I've watched his ball placement since college, I've watched his downfield shots, I've watched his eyes. I've seen SOME improvement, but that improvement is, I hesitate to say "marginal"... but it can be washed away by some of the incredibly questionable decisions and NON-decisions I've watched Mayfield make.
I'm in no hurry to get rid of Baker, none what-so-ever. Which is the thing I'm hoping you and anyone else who reads this understands. I hope we don't get rid of Baker because that would mean he has risen to the level of QB every organization in the NFL Needs in order to keep open a 10 year superbowl window. But I also have to be realistic. Baker hasn't been so brilliant that he has become irreplaceable either. Speaking of 2017, Case Keenum lead a VERY similar offense, although with better receivers compared to ours currently (but our RB's are WAY better) with the Vikings. A Vikings squad that had some of our current coaches, most notably Stef. Peep those Baker 2020 stats and compare them with Case 2017. You will be shocked to see how damn close they are in every meaningful category. Within a percentile of each other actually, all the way down to rushing stats.
- 3rd and finally
As for Joe Thomas His career was wasted by questionable coaches but an ownership and management staff that couldn't identify and maintain talent if it bit them in the ass.I laughed at the Brady Quinn pick because I saw just how bad he was at anticipating zone coverages against the Buckeyes. Which was a full year before he was even drafted.
Hell, I'd slap you if you walked up and said you "couldn't wait" to get rid of Baker. It's rude, dismissive, and bad math. The QB generally receives undue credit or undue praise. Which is why I try my absolute best to understand how complex this type of thing is. Hell Derek Anderson, if anything, actually PROVES my point. If you get a coaching staff worth their salt, they can take marginal talent and still form a competitive and possibly even winning team. Kyle Shanahan is my favorite example of that. That dude could take 11 of us off the street and average 20ppg. What this boils down to me ultimately is cost. I cannot, as of typing this, endorse paying Baker even Tannehill money. There's no metric that shows he has earned it other than "heart" and "competitive" and "leader"... neat. Again, if those were real things we got paid on Timmy Tea-biscuit would be a billion dollar athlete by now.
However I'm not so arrogant as to say it's not possible Baker could STILL get to that point of earning it with the Browns. Which is why I whole-heartedly believe he will play out his 5th year option. I also whole-heartedly believe that if this organization wants to make that decision (which is about a calendar year from now) as easy as humanly possible, they need to shut Baker down now. Get him healthy, address skill positions and RT in the off-season and give the coaches every possible tool to help make Barry's evaluation and calculation an accurate one. Because in 12 months there will be no more "yeah, but XYZ".
It'll be "Baker healthy? - yeah"
"He getting it done? - no" "Welp, here's our offer to reflect that"
Speaking of 2017, Case Keenum lead a VERY similar offense, although with better receivers compared to ours currently (but our RB's are WAY better) with the Vikings.
true, Stefon Diggs, All Pro....Adam Thielen, All Pro, and Laquon Treadwell, All Pro(first round draft pick).
and the Head Coach was there for two years before Keenum came to play for the Vikings. So, Baker had similar stats...with wr's NOT All Pro, (except for Landry - who has been playing hurt).....
doing a whole lot the same with a whole lot less. Well, better offensive line for Baker. And Keenum, in 2017 had Pro Bowl Te Kyle Rudolph.
-
Speaking of 2017, Case Keenum lead a VERY similar offense, although with better receivers compared to ours currently (but our RB's are WAY better) with the Vikings.
true, Stefon Diggs, All Pro....Adam Thielen, All Pro, and Laquon Treadwell, All Pro(first round draft pick).
and the Head Coach was there for two years before Keenum came to play for the Vikings. So, Baker had similar stats...with wr's NOT All Pro, (except for Landry - who has been playing hurt).....
doing a whole lot the same with a whole lot less. Well, better offensive line for Baker. And Keenum, in 2017 had Pro Bowl Te Kyle Rudolph.
Laquon Treadwell,
All Pro
(first round draft pick).
These things...... couldn't be any further apart. Let me try.
Tornado Watch - Keep your eyes out, shit is weird.
Tornado Warning - put on your helmets, shit got real.
Football example.
Corey Coleman - First round pick
Corey Coleman - Not All pro
edit: Let me try another at my own expense
Josh Rosen - first round pick
Josh Rosen - career backup
-
Laquon Treadwell,
All Pro
(first round draft pick).
These things...... couldn't be any further apart. Let me try.
Tornado Watch - Keep your eyes out, shit is weird.
Tornado Warning - put on your helmets, shit got real.
Football example.
Corey Coleman - First round pick
Corey Coleman - Not All pro
edit: Let me try another at my own expense
Josh Rosen - first round pick
Josh Rosen - career backup
These things...... couldn't be any further apart. Let me try.
Tornado Watch - Keep your eyes out, shit is weird.
Tornado Warning - put on your helmets, shit got real.
Football example.
Corey Coleman - First round pick
Corey Coleman - Not All pro
Cal's political takes have to be fuckin' gold.
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