Revisiting the AR-15
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One problem in considering that there may or may or not be any kind of real solution to any problem we have is as follows:
I don't know why but people tend to focus on some minor issue and make a mountain out of that particular molehill in this case the AR-15 a weapon that really really plays a tiny part in the school shooting scenario. But that's where the battle line is drawn and people obsess over it. Remember the fire storm over the bump stock? Which had been used how many times?
WSS
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- argument is basically "we need more guns so we can protect ourselves from the people that have guns." It is just lost on me how people don't get the faulty logic here.
Please explain why his logic is faulty.
Please explain why his logic is faulty.
I'll use the same analogy I used in another thread.
Your final product in manufacturing plant is arriving at the customer with quality issues. One option is to implement more inspection at the end of the line. This will make it more likely you'll catch the quality issue before it gets to the customer. It doesn't actually reduce them number of quality issues though. Another option, and a preferable one, is to address the process that is causing the quality issue and correct it. That way you're reducing the number of quality issues. You're reducing Occurrence instead of increasing Detection.
More guns is just detection / inspection. It isn't addressing the underlying cause of the issue.
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Please explain why his logic is faulty.
I'll use the same analogy I used in another thread.
Your final product in manufacturing plant is arriving at the customer with quality issues. One option is to implement more inspection at the end of the line. This will make it more likely you'll catch the quality issue before it gets to the customer. It doesn't actually reduce them number of quality issues though. Another option, and a preferable one, is to address the process that is causing the quality issue and correct it. That way you're reducing the number of quality issues. You're reducing Occurrence instead of increasing Detection.
More guns is just detection / inspection. It isn't addressing the underlying cause of the issue.
I'll use the same analogy I used in another thread.
Your final product in manufacturing plant is arriving at the customer with quality issues. One option is to implement more inspection at the end of the line. This will make it more likely you'll catch the quality issue before it gets to the customer. It doesn't actually reduce them number of quality issues though. Another option, and a preferable one, is to address the process that is causing the quality issue and correct it. That way you're reducing the number of quality issues. You're reducing Occurrence instead of increasing Detection.
More guns is just detection / inspection. It isn't addressing the underlying cause of the issue.
That doesn't make his logic faulty. It just means his most pressing concern isn't about fixing the root cause. If you live in a neighborhood with an armed shithead in it that is a potential threat to you when you go outside, then that's obviously what your primary focus is going to be on. Anything that reduces your ability to protect yourself against said shithead is a nonstarter. I can tell someone til I'm blue in the face why they shouldn't smoke cigarettes, but the people working a shit job for 60 hours a week value the stress relief it gives them over the potential downsides that they'll see decades later. That's just human nature.
He and I would likely be completely on board with fixing the root causes if it could be done in a way that does not reduce our ability to protect ourselves.
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The AR-15 is just a more glamorous hate object.
The truth is, the left wants to intimidate and find out where all good Americans' guns are.
case in point:
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I'll use the same analogy I used in another thread.
Your final product in manufacturing plant is arriving at the customer with quality issues. One option is to implement more inspection at the end of the line. This will make it more likely you'll catch the quality issue before it gets to the customer. It doesn't actually reduce them number of quality issues though. Another option, and a preferable one, is to address the process that is causing the quality issue and correct it. That way you're reducing the number of quality issues. You're reducing Occurrence instead of increasing Detection.
More guns is just detection / inspection. It isn't addressing the underlying cause of the issue.
That doesn't make his logic faulty. It just means his most pressing concern isn't about fixing the root cause. If you live in a neighborhood with an armed shithead in it that is a potential threat to you when you go outside, then that's obviously what your primary focus is going to be on. Anything that reduces your ability to protect yourself against said shithead is a nonstarter. I can tell someone til I'm blue in the face why they shouldn't smoke cigarettes, but the people working a shit job for 60 hours a week value the stress relief it gives them over the potential downsides that they'll see decades later. That's just human nature.
He and I would likely be completely on board with fixing the root causes if it could be done in a way that does not reduce our ability to protect ourselves.
That doesn't make his logic faulty. It just means his most pressing concern isn't about fixing the root cause. If you live in a neighborhood with an armed shithead in it that is a potential threat to you when you go outside, then that's obviously what your primary focus is going to be on. Anything that reduces your ability to protect yourself against said shithead is a nonstarter. I can tell someone til I'm blue in the face why they shouldn't smoke cigarettes, but the people working a shit job for 60 hours a week value the stress relief it gives them over the potential downsides that they'll see decades later. That's just human nature.
He and I would likely be completely on board with fixing the root causes if it could be done in a way that does not reduce our ability to protect ourselves.
We've enacted laws that address the issue of second hand smoke. Other than that, an individual's choice regarding smoking isn't going to directly affect you (generally). No one is going on a mass second hand smoke rampage at a mall.
Unless you're speaking towards someone making a choice that is better in the short term that inevitably hurts them long term.
And this isn't so much about focusing more on short term fixes than long term, it's that we aren't focusing at all on actual long term improvements. It isn't "arm everyone now and then we'll look at these other measures". It's "arm everyone now and then problem solved".
This improvement process has to start with a first step and that first step isn't going to solve everything magically overnight. But we refuse to even take that first step.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
That doesn't make his logic faulty. It just means his most pressing concern isn't about fixing the root cause. If you live in a neighborhood with an armed shithead in it that is a potential threat to you when you go outside, then that's obviously what your primary focus is going to be on. Anything that reduces your ability to protect yourself against said shithead is a nonstarter. I can tell someone til I'm blue in the face why they shouldn't smoke cigarettes, but the people working a shit job for 60 hours a week value the stress relief it gives them over the potential downsides that they'll see decades later. That's just human nature.
He and I would likely be completely on board with fixing the root causes if it could be done in a way that does not reduce our ability to protect ourselves.
We've enacted laws that address the issue of second hand smoke. Other than that, an individual's choice regarding smoking isn't going to directly affect you (generally). No one is going on a mass second hand smoke rampage at a mall.
Unless you're speaking towards someone making a choice that is better in the short term that inevitably hurts them long term.
And this isn't so much about focusing more on short term fixes than long term, it's that we aren't focusing at all on actual long term improvements. It isn't "arm everyone now and then we'll look at these other measures". It's "arm everyone now and then problem solved".
This improvement process has to start with a first step and that first step isn't going to solve everything magically overnight. But we refuse to even take that first step.
This improvement process has to start with a first step and that first step isn't going to solve everything magically overnight. But we refuse to even take that first step.
WHAT first step, vague one??? what YOU decide, because you politically and emotionally don't like guns?
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That doesn't make his logic faulty. It just means his most pressing concern isn't about fixing the root cause. If you live in a neighborhood with an armed shithead in it that is a potential threat to you when you go outside, then that's obviously what your primary focus is going to be on. Anything that reduces your ability to protect yourself against said shithead is a nonstarter. I can tell someone til I'm blue in the face why they shouldn't smoke cigarettes, but the people working a shit job for 60 hours a week value the stress relief it gives them over the potential downsides that they'll see decades later. That's just human nature.
He and I would likely be completely on board with fixing the root causes if it could be done in a way that does not reduce our ability to protect ourselves.
We've enacted laws that address the issue of second hand smoke. Other than that, an individual's choice regarding smoking isn't going to directly affect you (generally). No one is going on a mass second hand smoke rampage at a mall.
Unless you're speaking towards someone making a choice that is better in the short term that inevitably hurts them long term.
And this isn't so much about focusing more on short term fixes than long term, it's that we aren't focusing at all on actual long term improvements. It isn't "arm everyone now and then we'll look at these other measures". It's "arm everyone now and then problem solved".
This improvement process has to start with a first step and that first step isn't going to solve everything magically overnight. But we refuse to even take that first step.
We've enacted laws that address the issue of second hand smoke. Other than that, an individual's choice regarding smoking isn't going to directly affect you (generally). No one is going on a mass second hand smoke rampage at a mall.
Unless you're speaking towards someone making a choice that is better in the short term that inevitably hurts them long term.
And responsible gun owners aren't going on mass rampages at the mall either. An individual's choice regarding self-defense isn't going to directly affect you (generally). The government shouldn't punish law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals.
And this isn't so much about focusing more on short term fixes than long term, it's that we aren't focusing at all on actual long term improvements. It isn't "arm everyone now and then we'll look at these other measures". It's "arm everyone now and then problem solved".
This improvement process has to start with a first step and that first step isn't going to solve everything magically overnight. But we refuse to even take that first step.
Mississippi Board of Education just took the first step today and removed the ban on teachers carrying firearms. This is a first step, albeit one you don't like. I believe all of us are on the same page in saying that we want to see a reduction in all gun crime. No one is saying that the problem of mass shootings is now solved. They're still going to happen. This will hopefully be a deterrent that makes schools less attractive targets for mass shooters.
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simple point - "a knife caused" this mentally messed up attacker to go after a REP gov candidate, Lee Zeldin - NY, because knives are so easy to buy":
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We've enacted laws that address the issue of second hand smoke. Other than that, an individual's choice regarding smoking isn't going to directly affect you (generally). No one is going on a mass second hand smoke rampage at a mall.
Unless you're speaking towards someone making a choice that is better in the short term that inevitably hurts them long term.
And responsible gun owners aren't going on mass rampages at the mall either. An individual's choice regarding self-defense isn't going to directly affect you (generally). The government shouldn't punish law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals.
And this isn't so much about focusing more on short term fixes than long term, it's that we aren't focusing at all on actual long term improvements. It isn't "arm everyone now and then we'll look at these other measures". It's "arm everyone now and then problem solved".
This improvement process has to start with a first step and that first step isn't going to solve everything magically overnight. But we refuse to even take that first step.
Mississippi Board of Education just took the first step today and removed the ban on teachers carrying firearms. This is a first step, albeit one you don't like. I believe all of us are on the same page in saying that we want to see a reduction in all gun crime. No one is saying that the problem of mass shootings is now solved. They're still going to happen. This will hopefully be a deterrent that makes schools less attractive targets for mass shooters.
And responsible gun owners aren't going on mass rampages at the mall either. An individual's choice regarding self-defense isn't going to directly affect you (generally). The government shouldn't punish law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals.
Mississippi Board of Education just took the first step today and allowed teachers to carry. This is a first step, albeit one you don't like. I believe all of us are on the same page in saying that we want to see a reduction in all gun crime. No one is saying that the problem of mass shootings is now solved. They're still going to happen. This will hopefully be a deterrent that makes schools less attractive targets for mass shooters.
But the potential for an individual to cause mass harm and death exists with a gun but not with a cigarette. Ultimately, my internal calculus on personal freedom changes given the potential harm that freedom can cause to others.
No, I don't think allowing teachers to carry really does anything. At worst, it will make people complacent in thinking they solved the problem and it will only delay actual improvements. Fundamentally we agree on the outcome we want, but disagree on how to get there.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
And responsible gun owners aren't going on mass rampages at the mall either. An individual's choice regarding self-defense isn't going to directly affect you (generally). The government shouldn't punish law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals.
Mississippi Board of Education just took the first step today and allowed teachers to carry. This is a first step, albeit one you don't like. I believe all of us are on the same page in saying that we want to see a reduction in all gun crime. No one is saying that the problem of mass shootings is now solved. They're still going to happen. This will hopefully be a deterrent that makes schools less attractive targets for mass shooters.
But the potential for an individual to cause mass harm and death exists with a gun but not with a cigarette. Ultimately, my internal calculus on personal freedom changes given the potential harm that freedom can cause to others.
No, I don't think allowing teachers to carry really does anything. At worst, it will make people complacent in thinking they solved the problem and it will only delay actual improvements. Fundamentally we agree on the outcome we want, but disagree on how to get there.
But the potential for an individual to cause mass harm and death exists with a gun but not with a cigarette. Ultimately, my internal calculus on personal freedom changes given the potential harm that freedom can cause to others.
Potential for mass harm and death is where you draw the line?
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But the potential for an individual to cause mass harm and death exists with a gun but not with a cigarette. Ultimately, my internal calculus on personal freedom changes given the potential harm that freedom can cause to others.
Potential for mass harm and death is where you draw the line?
Potential for mass harm and death is where you draw the line?
I think it is a potential harm vs potential benefit equation (before I hear about how cars, planes, etc. can kill a lot of people).
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And responsible gun owners aren't going on mass rampages at the mall either. An individual's choice regarding self-defense isn't going to directly affect you (generally). The government shouldn't punish law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals.
Mississippi Board of Education just took the first step today and allowed teachers to carry. This is a first step, albeit one you don't like. I believe all of us are on the same page in saying that we want to see a reduction in all gun crime. No one is saying that the problem of mass shootings is now solved. They're still going to happen. This will hopefully be a deterrent that makes schools less attractive targets for mass shooters.
But the potential for an individual to cause mass harm and death exists with a gun but not with a cigarette. Ultimately, my internal calculus on personal freedom changes given the potential harm that freedom can cause to others.
No, I don't think allowing teachers to carry really does anything. At worst, it will make people complacent in thinking they solved the problem and it will only delay actual improvements. Fundamentally we agree on the outcome we want, but disagree on how to get there.
But the potential for an individual to cause mass harm and death exists with a gun but not with a cigarette. Ultimately, my internal calculus on personal freedom changes given the potential harm that freedom can cause to others.
No, I don't think allowing teachers to carry really does anything. At worst, it will make people complacent in thinking they solved the problem and it will only delay actual improvements. Fundamentally we agree on the outcome we want, but disagree on how to get there.
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They probably want to ban muzzle loaders
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We've enacted laws that address the issue of second hand smoke. Other than that, an individual's choice regarding smoking isn't going to directly affect you (generally). No one is going on a mass second hand smoke rampage at a mall.
Unless you're speaking towards someone making a choice that is better in the short term that inevitably hurts them long term.
And responsible gun owners aren't going on mass rampages at the mall either. An individual's choice regarding self-defense isn't going to directly affect you (generally). The government shouldn't punish law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals.
And this isn't so much about focusing more on short term fixes than long term, it's that we aren't focusing at all on actual long term improvements. It isn't "arm everyone now and then we'll look at these other measures". It's "arm everyone now and then problem solved".
This improvement process has to start with a first step and that first step isn't going to solve everything magically overnight. But we refuse to even take that first step.
Mississippi Board of Education just took the first step today and removed the ban on teachers carrying firearms. This is a first step, albeit one you don't like. I believe all of us are on the same page in saying that we want to see a reduction in all gun crime. No one is saying that the problem of mass shootings is now solved. They're still going to happen. This will hopefully be a deterrent that makes schools less attractive targets for mass shooters.
And responsible gun owners aren't going on mass rampages at the mall either. An individual's choice regarding self-defense isn't going to directly affect you (generally). The government shouldn't punish law-abiding citizens for the actions of criminals.
Mississippi Board of Education just took the first step today and removed the ban on teachers carrying firearms. This is a first step, albeit one you don't like. I believe all of us are on the same page in saying that we want to see a reduction in all gun crime. No one is saying that the problem of mass shootings is now solved. They're still going to happen. This will hopefully be a deterrent that makes schools less attractive targets for mass shooters.
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simple point - "a knife caused" this mentally messed up attacker to go after a REP gov candidate, Lee Zeldin - NY, because knives are so easy to buy":
simple point - "a knife caused" this mentally messed up attacker to go after a REP gov candidate, Lee Zeldin - NY, because knives are so easy to buy":
Not to mention the countless Smiths that can make their own knives... Whose gonna stop them...
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AR-15 =Red Herring.
WSS
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I wonder if Woody owns a knife. Knives are so easy to get, you know.
If he does, I sure hope that knife doesn't force him to kill somebody with it.
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