Colts/Vikings officiating
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By rule he was defenseless.
But Was Gilmore’s contact “unnecessary” by rule. He threw a shoulder and he launched but he was hitting a higher target. The act of leaving his feet and throwing the shoulder…might be the factor here.
If he goes lower and wraps and plants the WR…maybe it is really unnecessary. Thinking double leg takedown wrestling style. If he wraps and rolls rugby style - definitely not - but does he run the risk of not making the tackle.
I side toward no penalty but not really an egregious no call or call IMO
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I think this thread has run it's course but I will add just one last thing. NFL rules of a completed catch state a receiver must maintain control with two feet down inbounds while the receiver has the right to try to catch it. There are exceptions such as being shoved out of bounds but Justin Jefferson is clearly inbounds and catches the ball mid air and is lit up not having the chance to complete the catch. OK, I'll give you the hit itself was not dirty but there is clearly a foul here. It may have been called wrong on the field but you can't tell me there is no penalty here.
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Leading with the head is the foul. Plain and simple. and extremely dangerous.
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Leading with the head is the foul. Plain and simple. and extremely dangerous.
I’m not seeing the leading with head part…he actually led with the shoulder
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I’m not seeing the leading with head part…he actually led with the shoulder
He didn't.
He actually did a good job not using his head AND avoiding the WRs head.
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So what I gather from the responses is Stephan Gilmore is this technically sound corner who made great play, but he is incapable of waiting another half second to knock the ball out of his hand or deliver the exact same hit only the guy was able to land on his feet. I've seen many times a guy running across the field and get destroyed as soon as he gets his hands on it and all is good. What is Jefferson supposed to do two feet off the ground? This league tends to give the offensive player the benefit of doubt but what some of you are saying is Jefferson has no right and the DB is the only one allowed to make that play even though you are ignoring the obvious that he was defenseless. The league called it a foul, it's in the rule book as a foul and they made it pretty clear that it is a foul, but not you guys.?
What are you going to tell me next that Bottle Gate wasn't actually bullshit and it was a good call? What about the obvious fumble scoop and score by Minnesota that they wiped off the board, was that a good call too???
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I think this game shows instances of the league being rigged. It happens every week and this was a blatant example of them not even trying to hide it
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I think this game shows instances of the league being rigged. It happens every week and this was a blatant example of them not even trying to hide it
I think this game shows instances of the league being rigged. It happens every week and this was a blatant example of them not even trying to hide it
PERFECT coverage lol ?
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I don't think Josh Allen scored on Saturday night either. Said he "broke the plane" but the ball ended up around the 3 yard line.
Imagine trying to explain these rules to a foreigner. Two feet in, one elbow, a knee, surviving the ground, the ground can't cause a fumble, etc etc.
I maintain that instant replay reviews have damaged the NFL officiating nearly beyond repair. But they'll never go back on it now.
Karlis Missed -
I don't think Josh Allen scored on Saturday night either. Said he "broke the plane" but the ball ended up around the 3 yard line.
Imagine trying to explain these rules to a foreigner. Two feet in, one elbow, a knee, surviving the ground, the ground can't cause a fumble, etc etc.
I maintain that instant replay reviews have damaged the NFL officiating nearly beyond repair. But they'll never go back on it now.
I don't think Josh Allen scored on Saturday night either. Said he "broke the plane" but the ball ended up around the 3 yard line.
Imagine trying to explain these rules to a foreigner. Two feet in, one elbow, a knee, surviving the ground, the ground can't cause a fumble, etc etc.
I maintain that instant replay reviews have damaged the NFL officiating nearly beyond repair. But they'll never go back on it now.
One knee = two feet.
One foot in in college but two feet in professional football. And "probably " one of the biggest sports rulebooks in all sports.
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
I think this game shows instances of the league being rigged. It happens every week and this was a blatant example of them not even trying to hide it
PERFECT coverage lol ?
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This weekend was arguably the worst weekend of officiating I've seen in a long, long time. That missed PI was a few plays before the side judge told scary Terry twice he was good only to throw an illegal formation flag.
I've tried to say it for years and always get called a tin foil wearer. The reality of the situation is that the NFL has a huge problem with this crap and they (and the incompetent refs) refuse to budge. Remember the one year PI was reviewable and the refs silently revolted because they were little babies who didn't like their authority questioned? And then the rule just went away Refs need a huge overhaul and it's just not going to happen. The NFL needs to grow some balls and say this is going to happen whether you like it or not. The way this shit decides game is at all time high.
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This weekend was arguably the worst weekend of officiating I've seen in a long, long time. That missed PI was a few plays before the side judge told scary Terry twice he was good only to throw an illegal formation flag.
I've tried to say it for years and always get called a tin foil wearer. The reality of the situation is that the NFL has a huge problem with this crap and they (and the incompetent refs) refuse to budge. Remember the one year PI was reviewable and the refs silently revolted because they were little babies who didn't like their authority questioned? And then the rule just went away Refs need a huge overhaul and it's just not going to happen. The NFL needs to grow some balls and say this is going to happen whether you like it or not. The way this shit decides game is at all time high.
This weekend was arguably the worst weekend of officiating I've seen in a long, long time. That missed PI was a few plays before the side judge told scary Terry twice he was good only to throw an illegal formation flag.
I've tried to say it for years and always get called a tin foil wearer. The reality of the situation is that the NFL has a huge problem with this crap and they (and the incompetent refs) refuse to budge. Remember the one year PI was reviewable and the refs silently revolted because they were little babies who didn't like their authority questioned? And then the rule just went away Refs need a huge overhaul and it's just not going to happen. The NFL needs to grow some balls and say this is going to happen whether you like it or not. The way this shit decides game is at all time high.
Generally speaking the rules are poorly drafted and then poorly interpreted especially (personal fouls, unnecessary roughness). And Not too long ago we had purists complaining about instant replay. Are you kidding me the Refs need all the help they can get!!!
And for crying out loud quit blowing plays dead. Let the action play out. I think I saw three instances where turnovers happened but the team that created the turnover couldn’t advance the ball because of a whistle.
What do you do about officials???Train them better, Fine them and or don’t assign them. These folks have two jobs some of them are teachers, lawyers, Financial Analysts. You mean to tell me an organization like the NFL and the money it makes can’t regulate the profession more!!! This needs to a be a full time job around the clock.
what do teams do…get up by two scores so a blown call doesn’t decide the contest.
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This weekend was arguably the worst weekend of officiating I've seen in a long, long time. That missed PI was a few plays before the side judge told scary Terry twice he was good only to throw an illegal formation flag.
I've tried to say it for years and always get called a tin foil wearer. The reality of the situation is that the NFL has a huge problem with this crap and they (and the incompetent refs) refuse to budge. Remember the one year PI was reviewable and the refs silently revolted because they were little babies who didn't like their authority questioned? And then the rule just went away Refs need a huge overhaul and it's just not going to happen. The NFL needs to grow some balls and say this is going to happen whether you like it or not. The way this shit decides game is at all time high.
This weekend was arguably the worst weekend of officiating I've seen in a long, long time. That missed PI was a few plays before the side judge told scary Terry twice he was good only to throw an illegal formation flag.
I've tried to say it for years and always get called a tin foil wearer. The reality of the situation is that the NFL has a huge problem with this crap and they (and the incompetent refs) refuse to budge. Remember the one year PI was reviewable and the refs silently revolted because they were little babies who didn't like their authority questioned? And then the rule just went away Refs need a huge overhaul and it's just not going to happen. The NFL needs to grow some balls and say this is going to happen whether you like it or not. The way this shit decides game is at all time high.
Yep. There are times when a call is NOT called, and the ref is standing right about 5 yards away, the defender grabs the wr's arm, turns him away from the throw.... and the wr is trying to tell him...but the ref walks away.
something isn't right there, ...I don't see it in college that much at all. In a crowd, not seeing a quick facemask grab is understandable, but come on. Something is going on with....some...refs in the NFL.
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I don't think Josh Allen scored on Saturday night either. Said he "broke the plane" but the ball ended up around the 3 yard line.
Imagine trying to explain these rules to a foreigner. Two feet in, one elbow, a knee, surviving the ground, the ground can't cause a fumble, etc etc.
I maintain that instant replay reviews have damaged the NFL officiating nearly beyond repair. But they'll never go back on it now.
One knee = two feet.
One foot in in college but two feet in professional football. And "probably " one of the biggest sports rulebooks in all sports.
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@neo I went back over our little conversation in my head. I might be off, but I can't help but feel you're treating this more as a 'letter of the law', as opposed to 'spirit of the law'. The latter of those I find myself falling in to more often than not.
I say that because, per the rule you posted... on line 2.
- " A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner".
This is Denzel's hit to blow up the attempt at a Z screen/smoke to Chase.
- He's a receiver (eligible) Being that, even if this ball is behind the line of scrimmage, it's a forward pass and he is NOT a runner (at present)
- outside the tackle box
- Has elevated. Granted, not as high as Justin Jefferson, but has left his feet and is in a "defenseless posture".
- Has not been given time to catch the pass, let alone establish as a runner. Denzel hits him just as the ball arrives. So can't be pass interference either.
I think we both agree this is a hell of a play. And make no mistake, it is.
So if Justin Jefferson or Chase weren't hit in the head or neck area, and there was no leading with the crown, then only thing different between this and him was that JJ was just a bit higher off the ground. Which jump height has no bearing on in the rule book, to my knowledge? Further, if the WR makes the decision to leave his feet and jump for the ball, despite reading a coverage bracket and understand that the ball (by coverage structure) should be going to another WR... then he himself has violated the next sentence of the 2nd part of the illegal hit rule.
- "If the player is capable avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player".
This leads me to a couple thoughts.
- Much like with QB's waiting until the last second to slide, at what point do we hold the offensive player accountable for his own safety while preserving the spirit of the game?
- If a WR jumps, knowing full well he could avoid a hit if he stays flat footed and NOT go for the ball, then by definition he has the ability to ward off ANY and almost all contact. I see no other way of interpreting this.
Curious if you have any final follow up thoughts?
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@neo I went back over our little conversation in my head. I might be off, but I can't help but feel you're treating this more as a 'letter of the law', as opposed to 'spirit of the law'. The latter of those I find myself falling in to more often than not.
I say that because, per the rule you posted... on line 2.
- " A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner".
This is Denzel's hit to blow up the attempt at a Z screen/smoke to Chase.
- He's a receiver (eligible) Being that, even if this ball is behind the line of scrimmage, it's a forward pass and he is NOT a runner (at present)
- outside the tackle box
- Has elevated. Granted, not as high as Justin Jefferson, but has left his feet and is in a "defenseless posture".
- Has not been given time to catch the pass, let alone establish as a runner. Denzel hits him just as the ball arrives. So can't be pass interference either.
I think we both agree this is a hell of a play. And make no mistake, it is.
So if Justin Jefferson or Chase weren't hit in the head or neck area, and there was no leading with the crown, then only thing different between this and him was that JJ was just a bit higher off the ground. Which jump height has no bearing on in the rule book, to my knowledge? Further, if the WR makes the decision to leave his feet and jump for the ball, despite reading a coverage bracket and understand that the ball (by coverage structure) should be going to another WR... then he himself has violated the next sentence of the 2nd part of the illegal hit rule.
- "If the player is capable avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player".
This leads me to a couple thoughts.
- Much like with QB's waiting until the last second to slide, at what point do we hold the offensive player accountable for his own safety while preserving the spirit of the game?
- If a WR jumps, knowing full well he could avoid a hit if he stays flat footed and NOT go for the ball, then by definition he has the ability to ward off ANY and almost all contact. I see no other way of interpreting this.
Curious if you have any final follow up thoughts?
@neo I went back over our little conversation in my head. I might be off, but I can't help but feel you're treating this more as a 'letter of the law', as opposed to 'spirit of the law'. The latter of those I find myself falling in to more often than not.
I say that because, per the rule you posted... on line 2.
- " A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner".
This is Denzel's hit to blow up the attempt at a Z screen/smoke to Chase.
- He's a receiver (eligible) Being that, even if this ball is behind the line of scrimmage, it's a forward pass and he is NOT a runner (at present)
- outside the tackle box
- Has elevated. Granted, not as high as Justin Jefferson, but has left his feet and is in a "defenseless posture".
- Has not been given time to catch the pass, let alone establish as a runner. Denzel hits him just as the ball arrives. So can't be pass interference either.
I think we both agree this is a hell of a play. And make no mistake, it is.
So if Justin Jefferson or Chase weren't hit in the head or neck area, and there was no leading with the crown, then only thing different between this and him was that JJ was just a bit higher off the ground. Which jump height has no bearing on in the rule book, to my knowledge? Further, if the WR makes the decision to leave his feet and jump for the ball, despite reading a coverage bracket and understand that the ball (by coverage structure) should be going to another WR... then he himself has violated the next sentence of the 2nd part of the illegal hit rule.
- "If the player is capable avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player".
This leads me to a couple thoughts.
- Much like with QB's waiting until the last second to slide, at what point do we hold the offensive player accountable for his own safety while preserving the spirit of the game?
- If a WR jumps, knowing full well he could avoid a hit if he stays flat footed and NOT go for the ball, then by definition he has the ability to ward off ANY and almost all contact. I see no other way of interpreting this.
Curious if you have any final follow up thoughts?
I did not start this thread because of the Jefferson hit, it was because of two other things the officals did that wiped 2 touchdowns off the board. I watched the video you posted and I am totally fine with that, TOTALLY FINE. The guy had his feet on the ground and was able to somewhat try to absorb the hit. Jefferson LEAPED off the ground and then tried to catch a pass. His body is off the ground and he is looking at the football trying to catch it, not at the defender coming in for the hit. There is literally nothing Jefferson can do to brace for the hit or himself if he falls out of the sky the wrong way. They put these rules in there for a reason, to protect the players. All it takes is for him to land the wrong way and then he has a broken neck. Hitting any player that is airbourne is dangerous. I would not be sitting here bitching about it if he was allowed to land. What Gilmore did was dangerous and that's all I have to say.
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This weekend was arguably the worst weekend of officiating I've seen in a long, long time. That missed PI was a few plays before the side judge told scary Terry twice he was good only to throw an illegal formation flag.
I've tried to say it for years and always get called a tin foil wearer. The reality of the situation is that the NFL has a huge problem with this crap and they (and the incompetent refs) refuse to budge. Remember the one year PI was reviewable and the refs silently revolted because they were little babies who didn't like their authority questioned? And then the rule just went away Refs need a huge overhaul and it's just not going to happen. The NFL needs to grow some balls and say this is going to happen whether you like it or not. The way this shit decides game is at all time high.
Generally speaking the rules are poorly drafted and then poorly interpreted especially (personal fouls, unnecessary roughness). And Not too long ago we had purists complaining about instant replay. Are you kidding me the Refs need all the help they can get!!!
And for crying out loud quit blowing plays dead. Let the action play out. I think I saw three instances where turnovers happened but the team that created the turnover couldn’t advance the ball because of a whistle.
What do you do about officials???Train them better, Fine them and or don’t assign them. These folks have two jobs some of them are teachers, lawyers, Financial Analysts. You mean to tell me an organization like the NFL and the money it makes can’t regulate the profession more!!! This needs to a be a full time job around the clock.
what do teams do…get up by two scores so a blown call doesn’t decide the contest.
Generally speaking the rules are poorly drafted and then poorly interpreted especially (personal fouls, unnecessary roughness). And Not too long ago we had purists complaining about instant replay. Are you kidding me the Refs need all the help they can get!!!
And for crying out loud quit blowing plays dead. Let the action play out. I think I saw three instances where turnovers happened but the team that created the turnover couldn’t advance the ball because of a whistle.
What do you do about officials???Train them better, Fine them and or don’t assign them. These folks have two jobs some of them are teachers, lawyers, Financial Analysts. You mean to tell me an organization like the NFL and the money it makes can’t regulate the profession more!!! This needs to a be a full time job around the clock.
what do teams do…get up by two scores so a blown call doesn’t decide the contest.
I'm still not over this 34 years after. Blatant BS...instant replay is an absolute failure IMHO. Look at the video at the 14:00 mark please....
And it's not just the Browns. Remember how they took a catch away from Dez Bryant in a playoff game at Lambeau?
Karlis Missed -
Generally speaking the rules are poorly drafted and then poorly interpreted especially (personal fouls, unnecessary roughness). And Not too long ago we had purists complaining about instant replay. Are you kidding me the Refs need all the help they can get!!!
And for crying out loud quit blowing plays dead. Let the action play out. I think I saw three instances where turnovers happened but the team that created the turnover couldn’t advance the ball because of a whistle.
What do you do about officials???Train them better, Fine them and or don’t assign them. These folks have two jobs some of them are teachers, lawyers, Financial Analysts. You mean to tell me an organization like the NFL and the money it makes can’t regulate the profession more!!! This needs to a be a full time job around the clock.
what do teams do…get up by two scores so a blown call doesn’t decide the contest.
I'm still not over this 34 years after. Blatant BS...instant replay is an absolute failure IMHO. Look at the video at the 14:00 mark please....
And it's not just the Browns. Remember how they took a catch away from Dez Bryant in a playoff game at Lambeau?
I'm still not over this 34 years after. Blatant BS...instant replay is an absolute failure IMHO. Look at the video at the 14:00 mark please....
And it's not just the Browns. Remember how they took a catch away from Dez Bryant in a playoff game at Lambeau?
Yes, Clay got screwed on that lateral that wasn’t called a lateral.
Big time fuck up by the refs on a game that was decided by 1 point.
I maybe wrong, but I think that was the last game with Marty as HC?
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Generally speaking the rules are poorly drafted and then poorly interpreted especially (personal fouls, unnecessary roughness). And Not too long ago we had purists complaining about instant replay. Are you kidding me the Refs need all the help they can get!!!
And for crying out loud quit blowing plays dead. Let the action play out. I think I saw three instances where turnovers happened but the team that created the turnover couldn’t advance the ball because of a whistle.
What do you do about officials???Train them better, Fine them and or don’t assign them. These folks have two jobs some of them are teachers, lawyers, Financial Analysts. You mean to tell me an organization like the NFL and the money it makes can’t regulate the profession more!!! This needs to a be a full time job around the clock.
what do teams do…get up by two scores so a blown call doesn’t decide the contest.
I'm still not over this 34 years after. Blatant BS...instant replay is an absolute failure IMHO. Look at the video at the 14:00 mark please....
And it's not just the Browns. Remember how they took a catch away from Dez Bryant in a playoff game at Lambeau?
I'm still not over this 34 years after. Blatant BS...instant replay is an absolute failure IMHO. Look at the video at the 14:00 mark please....
Holy shit, apparently I've misremembered that play for 34 years, because me and my Dad still to this day bring this specific play up, but we both always said it was Reggie Langhorne, not Slaughter. (Unless there was ANOTHER play like this in that game?)
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