Charting Quinn against the Vikings
-
@jadbf said:
Thanks Jason!What's your take on the interception?
Misread by Quinn at the line. He saw Man up w/ a single high safety. In actuality it was cover 3 rolling to Edwards. Griffin took a hard outside position pre-snap - which should've tipped the coverage. He has to have help underneath - in this case the Free Safety presses the slant. Edwards read it right. He called off the fade route and hit the seam full speed. That's a sight adjustment. Quinn needs to read the outside position, pick up the free safety and throw that ball on a line as soon as Edwards clears.
Instead, he started with his 1 read short right, saw the underneath coverage rolling that way, and came back to the backside fade. Unfortunately, he was still thinking he had man coverage on the back - he still thought he had a fade route running. He didn't. His first look held the Strong Safety on the midline and actully drew him to his (the SS's) left, creating a nice seam. But it reinforced the man look. I'm sure he thought, "There's my single high safety in the middle of the field, I've got my best guy man for man with no help." So he laid the ball up away from the safety. Good thought, but wrong.
He needed to pick up the read at the line. When he saw Griffin anchoring outside, he has to read zone. If he comes off of his first look thinking zone, he comes across the field and picks up the single high saftey dead-center of the field fading right and reads Cover 3. Now he knows he can zip the ball in there because there's no one under Edwards that far down the field, and the corner's going to be playing outside-in.
A good read and a ball thrown on a line and Edwards scores without breaking stride. It was a bad read pure and simple... or at least kinda simple.
-jj
A good read and a ball thrown on a line and Edwards scores without breaking stride. It was a bad read pure and simple... or at least kinda simple.
-jj
Does that come with chemistry, or more film time? Because whether Quinn was wrong or BE was wrong, they both weren't on the same page. If they both make the "wrong" read, it's a TD. Or at least not a pick.
-
Misread by Quinn at the line. He saw Man up w/ a single high safety. In actuality it was cover 3 rolling to Edwards. Griffin took a hard outside position pre-snap - which should've tipped the coverage. He has to have help underneath - in this case the Free Safety presses the slant. Edwards read it right. He called off the fade route and hit the seam full speed. That's a sight adjustment. Quinn needs to read the outside position, pick up the free safety and throw that ball on a line as soon as Edwards clears.
Instead, he started with his 1 read short right, saw the underneath coverage rolling that way, and came back to the backside fade. Unfortunately, he was still thinking he had man coverage on the back - he still thought he had a fade route running. He didn't. His first look held the Strong Safety on the midline and actully drew him to his (the SS's) left, creating a nice seam. But it reinforced the man look. I'm sure he thought, "There's my single high safety in the middle of the field, I've got my best guy man for man with no help." So he laid the ball up away from the safety. Good thought, but wrong.
He needed to pick up the read at the line. When he saw Griffin anchoring outside, he has to read zone. If he comes off of his first look thinking zone, he comes across the field and picks up the single high saftey dead-center of the field fading right and reads Cover 3. Now he knows he can zip the ball in there because there's no one under Edwards that far down the field, and the corner's going to be playing outside-in.
A good read and a ball thrown on a line and Edwards scores without breaking stride. It was a bad read pure and simple... or at least kinda simple.
-jj
Question (insert Bevis voice if you like), why after the game and yesterday were Quinn, Edwards, and Reggie Rucker (on Reghi) saying the misread was on Edwards, in that he changed off the initial sight adjustment of man at the line - Ruckers take (hense BE ending up not where Quinn was expecting him to be)?
I get that the sight adjustment should have been the cover 3, but if Quinn thinks it's man and makes that sight adjustment, shouldn't BE know what Quinn read (some sort of signal to BE) and continue on that expect route? Is this one of those cases where 2 wrongs made 1 really big wrong?
Masters said:
Question (insert Bevis voice if you like), why after the game and yesterday were Quinn, Edwards, and Reggie Rucker (on Reghi) saying the misread was on Edwards, in that he changed off the initial sight adjustment of man at the line - Ruckers take (hense BE ending up not where Quinn was expecting him to be)?I get that the sight adjustment should have been the cover 3, but if Quinn thinks it's man and makes that sight adjustment, shouldn't BE know what Quinn read (some sort of signal to BE) and continue on that expect route? Is this one of those cases where 2 wrongs made 1 really big wrong?
I wouldn't necessarily expect them to communicate like that. Edwards is pretty protective of his QB's and is pretty quick to take the blame for things. But I think he saw the free release inside. That's got to tip zone coverage. Or at least an over/under double team.
It'd be more likely that the two (Quinn and Edwards) made eye contact acknowledging a sight adjustment and Edwards knows Griffin is staking the outside zone and Quinn reads it as press man coverage. So in Quinn's head, he thinks he's adjusted to the fade and Edwards is adjusting to the seam route.
I just think Quinn misread it. But, you'd never get Edwards to say that.
-jj
-
Pretty much looked like a guy with 3 career starts. I'm not sure what everyone is getting so excited about. They played a defense that is pretty good. And they struggled to convert 3rd downs.
If you look a the chart (I don't pay much attention to the last bit, because it's not as if the Vikings were putting up much resistance.), you've got a couple of miscues, couple of slow reads, couple of protection breakdowns, and some short completions.
I'm no expert here, but the problem may have been that Quinn attempted only 3 passes in the 3rd quarter.
The defense just couldn't get themselves off the field in the 3rd. And by the time Peterson broke the 80 yard run in the 4th, the defense was gassed. Or, at least I hope they were. If they weren't, I can't explain how a 11 professional football players can have a running back run 25 yards, stop, turn around, stiff-arm a guy to the ground, then turn back upfield, and only have 2 guys in the frame with him. David Bowens flat out quit on that one. He needs to realize that Alex Hall would've chased Peterson to the parking lot if he had to. D'Qwell Jackson got pancaked at the line. How the hell do you get pancaked as a linebacker by the guard that's right in front of you???? That is piss-poor execution. Pool looked like he didn't want any part of him. Coleman, Williams and Rogers got manhandled - single man manhandled. Rogers was flopping like he was trying to draw a charging foul. It was pathetic. That was a Pop Warner run. You don't make those runs in the pros. Hell, you don't make those runs in High School.
Of course this may also speak to the Browns lacking some depth. Who knows? But I'm not going to hang this one on Quinn. He was a little skittish and erratic. But, that's to be expected. He'll cool down.
-jj
David Bowens flat out quit on that one. He needs to realize that Alex Hall would've chased Peterson to the parking lot if he had to.
-jj
Ha! I thought about that also. Total lack of heart on that play. And a couple of the fellas' twitter posts that night confirmed it.
I still haven't decided which was more disheartening for me as a fan.
-
A good read and a ball thrown on a line and Edwards scores without breaking stride. It was a bad read pure and simple... or at least kinda simple.
-jj
Does that come with chemistry, or more film time? Because whether Quinn was wrong or BE was wrong, they both weren't on the same page. If they both make the "wrong" read, it's a TD. Or at least not a pick.
Does that come with chemistry, or more film time? Because whether Quinn was wrong or BE was wrong, they both weren't on the same page. If they both make the "wrong" read, it's a TD. Or at least not a pick.
Your quarterback just made his 4th career start. It just takes some time. There are no easy answers. They're not going to develop telepathy, but Quinn and Edwards will be fine. It's just a misread. It happens all the time. That's why defensive coordinators get the big bucks. They can disguise coverages. Admittedly, that one was pretty obvious, but still.
And please don't go to the "preseason snaps" card... Anybody can read coverages in the preseason. It's usually base coverages, and most of the parts are stationary. The guy just needs some games under his belt.
-jj
-
Masters said:
Question (insert Bevis voice if you like), why after the game and yesterday were Quinn, Edwards, and Reggie Rucker (on Reghi) saying the misread was on Edwards, in that he changed off the initial sight adjustment of man at the line - Ruckers take (hense BE ending up not where Quinn was expecting him to be)?I get that the sight adjustment should have been the cover 3, but if Quinn thinks it's man and makes that sight adjustment, shouldn't BE know what Quinn read (some sort of signal to BE) and continue on that expect route? Is this one of those cases where 2 wrongs made 1 really big wrong?
I wouldn't necessarily expect them to communicate like that. Edwards is pretty protective of his QB's and is pretty quick to take the blame for things. But I think he saw the free release inside. That's got to tip zone coverage. Or at least an over/under double team.
It'd be more likely that the two (Quinn and Edwards) made eye contact acknowledging a sight adjustment and Edwards knows Griffin is staking the outside zone and Quinn reads it as press man coverage. So in Quinn's head, he thinks he's adjusted to the fade and Edwards is adjusting to the seam route.
I just think Quinn misread it. But, you'd never get Edwards to say that.
-jj
I wouldn't necessarily expect them to communicate like that. Edwards is pretty protective of his QB's and is pretty quick to take the blame for things. But I think he saw the free release inside. That's got to tip zone coverage. Or at least an over/under double team.
It'd be more likely that the two (Quinn and Edwards) made eye contact acknowledging a sight adjustment and Edwards knows Griffin is staking the outside zone and Quinn reads it as press man coverage. So in Quinn's head, he thinks he's adjusted to the fade and Edwards is adjusting to the seam route.
I just think Quinn misread it. But, you'd never get Edwards to say that.
-jj
Makes sense, thanks!
-
@shepwrite said:
I wondered about all the shotgun as opposed to three step drops and quick slants. I also wondered about the lack of screens.I agree -- he wasn't great, but he wasn't horrible (like, say, Cutler and Delhomme). Three drops, three other passes that could've been caught, two passes wiped out by penalty, and a pick on a bad route by Edwards. He had three good downfield throws -- a TD, a drop, and a penalty.
I'd give it a C-, myself.
Shep I am with you (and Mangini) on this. I saw good and bad from Quinn on the game. I also so some questionable play calling in the game. I would give Quinn a C for the game.
You'll also note the number of times the chart shows Quinn was pressured. There were far to many in that column.
Masters said:
Shep I am with you (and Mangini) on this. I saw good and bad from Quinn on the game. I also so some questionable play calling in the game. I would give Quinn a C for the game.You'll also note the number of times the chart shows Quinn was pressured. There were far to many in that column.
Wow....you guys are generous...that was a F guys.
That attempted pass where he pretty much whiffed and threw the ball backwards is enough by itself to warrant a F.
I see that on cold, wet days...not sunny 75 degree days.
Has the guy had a rap of having small hands??
-
Masters said:
Shep I am with you (and Mangini) on this. I saw good and bad from Quinn on the game. I also so some questionable play calling in the game. I would give Quinn a C for the game.You'll also note the number of times the chart shows Quinn was pressured. There were far to many in that column.
Wow....you guys are generous...that was a F guys.
That attempted pass where he pretty much whiffed and threw the ball backwards is enough by itself to warrant a F.
I see that on cold, wet days...not sunny 75 degree days.
Has the guy had a rap of having small hands??
Wow....you guys are generous...that was a F guys.
That attempted pass where he pretty much whiffed and threw the ball backwards is enough by itself to warrant a F.
I see that on cold, wet days...not sunny 75 degree days.
Has the guy had a rap of having small hands??
Do you give Cutler an F for his game last against SD where he did the same thing?
It's one bad play (ok really bad). But Quinn isn't the first NFL QB I have seen do that, nor will he be the last. That stuff just happens when a QB starts on the run and then tries to pull back up to pass.
I am not going to grade a guys whole day on one play. If I did that, pretty much half the players in the league would get an F every other Sunday.
Though after Jason's explaination of the INT, I am going to lower the grade to a D
-
Do you give Cutler an F for his game last against SD where he did the same thing?
Sure...why not.
Thing is I don't care what Cutler or any other QB for that matter does.
We aren't comparing Quinn to anybody else. At least I am not.
It is all about him.
That can't be hard to understand. All that matters is how our team and our players play. How they play compared to other players isn't germane.
-
Do you give Cutler an F for his game last against SD where he did the same thing?
Sure...why not.
Thing is I don't care what Cutler or any other QB for that matter does.
We aren't comparing Quinn to anybody else. At least I am not.
It is all about him.
That can't be hard to understand. All that matters is how our team and our players play. How they play compared to other players isn't germane.
Sure...why not.
Thing is I don't care what Cutler or any other QB for that matter does.
We aren't comparing Quinn to anybody else. At least I am not.
It is all about him.
That can't be hard to understand. All that matters is how our team and our players play. How they play compared to other players isn't germane.
We are talking about grading a players performance for a game. Maybe you choose to grade Browns players on a different scale than other players. I don't. That was the point of bringing up Cutler. I am not going to pretend that play on Sunday was some monumental catastrophy that you never see from a legit NFL QB.
-
Jason,
Are you sure that was Cover 3 on that play? I am watching the reply of the play( http://www.nfl.com/videos/cleveland-browns...-vs-Browns-2009 ) and I am missing the cover 3 on this. I see the saftey on BE's side creaping up to the line and taking away a quick slant, 2 LBs following the both TE's release on the right side (MLB and OLB) and the other LB come up across the LOS. Doesn't seem like much of a cover 3 to me (maybe one of those variations on it?).
But I do see the window for a rope pass to BE on the inside. Of course I also see BE getting the CB to bite on the inside, and BE flashing like he is going outside but stays on his inside path.
-
interesting reply.....ironic coming from you.
maybe its wrong that im seeing the same behavior as last year, only now its brady's ladies defending against the charges of the DA fags. the role reversal is more amusing than the fact our "NFL-Ready" QB may not be so NFL ready.....
-
interesting reply.....ironic coming from you.
maybe its wrong that im seeing the same behavior as last year, only now its brady's ladies defending against the charges of the DA fags. the role reversal is more amusing than the fact our "NFL-Ready" QB may not be so NFL ready.....
interesting reply.....ironic coming from you.
maybe its wrong that im seeing the same behavior as last year, only now its brady's ladies defending against the charges of the DA fags. the role reversal is more amusing than the fact our "NFL-Ready" QB may not be so NFL ready.....
Not as amusing as your sole intention of getting a rise out of people, there's a reason you're always getting shit on.
-
if this is getting shit on, then you suck worse than you think.
turn up that dial if you think youre a man, then....cause this is bush-league shit right here, fella.
-
Jason,
Are you sure that was Cover 3 on that play? I am watching the reply of the play( http://www.nfl.com/videos/cleveland-browns...-vs-Browns-2009 ) and I am missing the cover 3 on this. I see the saftey on BE's side creaping up to the line and taking away a quick slant, 2 LBs following the both TE's release on the right side (MLB and OLB) and the other LB come up across the LOS. Doesn't seem like much of a cover 3 to me (maybe one of those variations on it?).
But I do see the window for a rope pass to BE on the inside. Of course I also see BE getting the CB to bite on the inside, and BE flashing like he is going outside but stays on his inside path.
Masters said:
Jason,Are you sure that was Cover 3 on that play? I am watching the reply of the play( http://www.nfl.com/videos/cleveland-browns...-vs-Browns-2009 ) and I am missing the cover 3 on this. I see the saftey on BE's side creaping up to the line and taking away a quick slant, 2 LBs following the both TE's release on the right side (MLB and OLB) and the other LB come up across the LOS. Doesn't seem like much of a cover 3 to me (maybe one of those variations on it?).
But I do see the window for a rope pass to BE on the inside. Of course I also see BE getting the CB to bite on the inside, and BE flashing like he is going outside but stays on his inside path.
Just as the ball is snapped you see both corners open up to the inside and drop. The SS (who's just barely on the screen) drops at an angle from the near hash to the middle of the field. That's your Cover 3 shell.
Underneath, the sam stays with the inside TE, the mike takes the outside TE, and the will stays with the back. The Free safety is in an empty zone. It's hard to say if that's a Cover 3 man under, or if the lbs are just making counts. The sam backer is definitely in man-to-man. But it's not uncommon to leave just that matchup. You have the two backers playing thirds with the safety and play 3 over and 3 under. If the 2nd TE releases, the sam has him one on one. The will is either waiting for the back to release in man, or waiting for someone to enter his zone. I can't tell what the mike backer's doing. That is either a zone drop or some of the worst man coverage I've ever seen. If it's a zone drop, it's pretty heady of the will backer to hang around the line because no one released into his zone.
It's a little hybrid coverage, it looks like. Maybe a Cover 3 Man look, just rolled over to the weak side. Either way if you're going to one of the outside receivers, you've got to read that as a zone.
-jj
-
Masters said:
Jason,Are you sure that was Cover 3 on that play? I am watching the reply of the play( http://www.nfl.com/videos/cleveland-browns...-vs-Browns-2009 ) and I am missing the cover 3 on this. I see the saftey on BE's side creaping up to the line and taking away a quick slant, 2 LBs following the both TE's release on the right side (MLB and OLB) and the other LB come up across the LOS. Doesn't seem like much of a cover 3 to me (maybe one of those variations on it?).
But I do see the window for a rope pass to BE on the inside. Of course I also see BE getting the CB to bite on the inside, and BE flashing like he is going outside but stays on his inside path.
Just as the ball is snapped you see both corners open up to the inside and drop. The SS (who's just barely on the screen) drops at an angle from the near hash to the middle of the field. That's your Cover 3 shell.
Underneath, the sam stays with the inside TE, the mike takes the outside TE, and the will stays with the back. The Free safety is in an empty zone. It's hard to say if that's a Cover 3 man under, or if the lbs are just making counts. The sam backer is definitely in man-to-man. But it's not uncommon to leave just that matchup. You have the two backers playing thirds with the safety and play 3 over and 3 under. If the 2nd TE releases, the sam has him one on one. The will is either waiting for the back to release in man, or waiting for someone to enter his zone. I can't tell what the mike backer's doing. That is either a zone drop or some of the worst man coverage I've ever seen. If it's a zone drop, it's pretty heady of the will backer to hang around the line because no one released into his zone.
It's a little hybrid coverage, it looks like. Maybe a Cover 3 Man look, just rolled over to the weak side. Either way if you're going to one of the outside receivers, you've got to read that as a zone.
-jj
Just as the ball is snapped you see both corners open up to the inside and drop. The SS (who's just barely on the screen) drops at an angle from the near hash to the middle of the field. That's your Cover 3 shell.
Underneath, the sam stays with the inside TE, the mike takes the outside TE, and the will stays with the back. The Free safety is in an empty zone. It's hard to say if that's a Cover 3 man under, or if the lbs are just making counts. The sam backer is definitely in man-to-man. But it's not uncommon to leave just that matchup. You have the two backers playing thirds with the safety and play 3 over and 3 under. If the 2nd TE releases, the sam has him one on one. The will is either waiting for the back to release in man, or waiting for someone to enter his zone. I can't tell what the mike backer's doing. That is either a zone drop or some of the worst man coverage I've ever seen. If it's a zone drop, it's pretty heady of the will backer to hang around the line because no one released into his zone.
It's a little hybrid coverage, it looks like. Maybe a Cover 3 Man look, just rolled over to the weak side. Either way if you're going to one of the outside receivers, you've got to read that as a zone.
-jj
Thanks for the break down Jason. I think you are right when you say that it might it's a hybrid. That's what I was kind of seeing when I rewatched it (zone for the corners and man for the LBs), but wanted your take on it.
While I think the read Quinn made could work against that coverage (maybe where Reggie Rucker was going when he was on Reghi), Quinn has to see to see that cover 3 up top like BE did. Of course if it was a hybrid, that's definately one of those "you got to play live games and see that to learn" type of coverages.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login