Woods & Watson
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Great point KD!
If we had a FO that was good at drafting, fixing the glaring and OBVIOUS holes in our defense wouldn't feel like watching the Mission Impossible sequel here. Every time Seattle has frequented playoffs (and appeared in 2 Super Bowls) they did it via the draft, which made for a really freakin healthy salary cap (especially when you factor in the rookie salary cap helping that). Then they could use free agency the way it should be used as a supplement rather than leaning on it.
While I would also like to see even better results in the draft, it is not all doom and gloom.
Alex Wright could be ready to step up. Especially if we fix the IDL, you do not need a top 10 Edge opposite Myles. There is value in 'good enough.' Adding a veteran for the rotation could be good. Would Larry-O be interested in coming back?
Perrion Winfrey showed flashes of huge upside last season. Very interested to see how he develops. But we need to add two new pieces, I think. As I mentioned in the draft topic, the DT FA is very tight. Taven Bryan is projected to command double what he makes now, and he is not exactly a world beater. Dalvin Tomlinson looks to be the only upgrade we could possibly afford. We are going to have to use one of our higher picks here. Maybe a later round development player as well.
Then we have Emerson and Bell. We certainly have some promising picks from recent years to work with.
Alex Wright could be ready to step up.
Isiah Thomas would be a better candidate.
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While I would also like to see even better results in the draft, it is not all doom and gloom.
Alex Wright could be ready to step up. Especially if we fix the IDL, you do not need a top 10 Edge opposite Myles. There is value in 'good enough.' Adding a veteran for the rotation could be good. Would Larry-O be interested in coming back?
Perrion Winfrey showed flashes of huge upside last season. Very interested to see how he develops. But we need to add two new pieces, I think. As I mentioned in the draft topic, the DT FA is very tight. Taven Bryan is projected to command double what he makes now, and he is not exactly a world beater. Dalvin Tomlinson looks to be the only upgrade we could possibly afford. We are going to have to use one of our higher picks here. Maybe a later round development player as well.
Then we have Emerson and Bell. We certainly have some promising picks from recent years to work with.
I will gladly join you in this line of thinking KD if the FO finally upgrades the IDL in their 4th opportunity to do so. Right now we're very stuck on pause with "if" = "still has not."
I will gladly join you in this line of thinking KD if the FO finally upgrades the IDL in their 4th opportunity to do so. Right now we're very stuck on pause with "if" = "still has not."
Schwartz was not employed in those drafts. From what I have heard, he is a 'D-line whisperer.' As Tia has said before, he is practically certain to be involved in the draft this year.
Isiah Thomas would be a better candidate.
Happy to concede to your assessment. My point was slightly different though: Namely that the picks of recent years haven't been all bad, and a rotation can be built with them and value for money additions.
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Alex Wright could be ready to step up.
Isiah Thomas would be a better candidate.
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Just ask musicians around town about me... Then go hide under a rock... Idiot..
i just flew back from ohio no one has heard of you except one guy said he thought you worked at hortons
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I will gladly join you in this line of thinking KD if the FO finally upgrades the IDL in their 4th opportunity to do so. Right now we're very stuck on pause with "if" = "still has not."
Schwartz was not employed in those drafts. From what I have heard, he is a 'D-line whisperer.' As Tia has said before, he is practically certain to be involved in the draft this year.
Isiah Thomas would be a better candidate.
Happy to concede to your assessment. My point was slightly different though: Namely that the picks of recent years haven't been all bad, and a rotation can be built with them and value for money additions.
Schwartz was not employed in those drafts. From what I have heard, he is a 'D-line whisperer.' As Tia has said before, he is practically certain to be involved in the draft this year.
Thanks KD! Schwartz will be a blessing for this defense. His experience volume should get a respectful ear or 2 from Berry for the valuable input Berry desperately needs about the front line of our D. If Schwartz gets sentenced to the current IDL, I can assure you he isn't going to be whispering at them. There should be some very good IDL prospects available when the Browns make their 1st pick in round 2.
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When you post on a message board, you're essentially talking to everyone thus you're fair game. Use the PM feature if you prefer not to have anyone to chime in.
oh wow you sure told me Bet you were to busy on national hate day along with nickers and die hard to say something earlier to me
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While I would also like to see even better results in the draft, it is not all doom and gloom.
Alex Wright could be ready to step up. Especially if we fix the IDL, you do not need a top 10 Edge opposite Myles. There is value in 'good enough.' Adding a veteran for the rotation could be good. Would Larry-O be interested in coming back?
Perrion Winfrey showed flashes of huge upside last season. Very interested to see how he develops. But we need to add two new pieces, I think. As I mentioned in the draft topic, the DT FA is very tight. Taven Bryan is projected to command double what he makes now, and he is not exactly a world beater. Dalvin Tomlinson looks to be the only upgrade we could possibly afford. We are going to have to use one of our higher picks here. Maybe a later round development player as well.
Then we have Emerson and Bell. We certainly have some promising picks from recent years to work with.
I will gladly join you in this line of thinking KD if the FO finally upgrades the IDL in their 4th opportunity to do so. Right now we're very stuck on pause with "if" = "still has not."
I will gladly join you in this line of thinking KD if the FO finally upgrades the IDL in their 4th opportunity to do so. Right now we're very stuck on pause with "if" = "still has not."
nailed it !
It's hard to overlook, how bad it's gotten/rotten under Berry's dime
EDGE
miss print position below.. Below our Berry's yearly Defensive Tackle decreasing age/value/talent of the position
but we saved a few Depo bucks
... Seems to me...
Haslam may have strapped AB with a boat sinking
anchor named money-ball Depo
Come on Jimmy Schwartz ! Cut the rope on Haslam/Depo's anchor ?
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I will gladly join you in this line of thinking KD if the FO finally upgrades the IDL in their 4th opportunity to do so. Right now we're very stuck on pause with "if" = "still has not."
nailed it !
It's hard to overlook, how bad it's gotten/rotten under Berry's dime
EDGE
miss print position below.. Below our Berry's yearly Defensive Tackle decreasing age/value/talent of the position
but we saved a few Depo bucks
... Seems to me...
Haslam may have strapped AB with a boat sinking
anchor named money-ball Depo
Come on Jimmy Schwartz ! Cut the rope on Haslam/Depo's anchor ?
nailed it !
It's hard to overlook, how bad it's gotten/rotten under Berry's dime
EDGE
miss print position below.. Below our Berry's yearly Defensive Tackle decreasing age/value/talent of the position
but we saved a few Depo bucks
... Seems to me...
Haslam may have strapped AB with a boat sinking
anchor named money-ball Depo
Come on Jimmy Schwartz ! Cut the rope on Haslam/Depo's anchor ?
Great research Gumbs - thanks for sharing!
When the FO turned the DT position into their Savings and Loan strategy immediately after the 2020 season - the decreasing winning percentages accompanying that looked like more than just a coincidence. In 2020, the Browns were 11-5 and won their 1st playoff game since the Browns re-entered the league. One year later, they went 9-8 before going 7-10 in 2022. You get what you pay for. When you know what you're doing - that can be a good thing. When you don't? You end up with 4 LBers behind those guys on IR aside from watching our defense stink it up against the run.
I'm thankful you, KD and others keep reminding me that Schwartz's success and extensive experience might be able to penetrate some FO ego when looking at where help is needed and breaking down film of their prospects.
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If there's 1 salary that could be tweaked to accommodate this - it would be Watson's.
While I like the idea of getting him here... I think fixing the Defense is paramount... I still want to see a healthy Jakeem Grant in this offense and see how much David Bell and Michael Wood develop. That would go a long way in helping out the O... But so far.. I'm not one bit thrilled with Watson... He looks whoefully pedestrian... And I don't want to hear he's been sitting on his ass for 2-3 years whatev's... If your good.. Your good and you shouldn't need 2 years to get your shit together.. There have been times I've taken months away from playing guitar to come back with fresh ideas.. it only takes me a couple days to get my groove and my chops back... The excuses are lame... I want to focus on 2 things in this draft/FA period.. OL and DL and maybe LB'er...
While I like the idea of getting him here... I think fixing the Defense is paramount... I still want to see a healthy Jakeem Grant in this offense and see how much David Bell and Michael Wood develop. That would go a long way in helping out the O... But so far.. I'm not one bit thrilled with Watson... He looks whoefully pedestrian... And I don't want to hear he's been sitting on his ass for 2-3 years whatev's... If your good.. Your good and you shouldn't need 2 years to get your shit together.. There have been times I've taken months away from playing guitar to come back with fresh ideas.. it only takes me a couple days to get my groove and my chops back... The excuses are lame... I want to focus on 2 things in this draft/FA period.. OL and DL and maybe LB'er...
I agree.
My feeling is we will be better served on spending what FA money we have on a defensive player or two over a receiver. I think we have a couple of young receivers in Bell and Woods who could fill the void. I also think there are more receivers available in the draft over D line players.
I see a few receivers we could get in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that could step in and start, or at minimum play a big role in the O. Big role meaning catching maybe 30-50 balls this year.
Another component to watch is with Musgrave hired, we will probably lean a bit towards a WCO offense with controlled passing, which should help a guy like Bell. I think it also point to some changes at runningback. Somebody in that backfield is going to catch 50 passes(give or take), Chubb might be that guy, but I suspect it is going to be somebody else.
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When you post on a message board, you're essentially talking to everyone thus you're fair game. Use the PM feature if you prefer not to have anyone to chime in.
oh wow you sure told me Bet you were to busy on national hate day along with nickers and die hard to say something earlier to me
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I will gladly join you in this line of thinking KD if the FO finally upgrades the IDL in their 4th opportunity to do so. Right now we're very stuck on pause with "if" = "still has not."
Schwartz was not employed in those drafts. From what I have heard, he is a 'D-line whisperer.' As Tia has said before, he is practically certain to be involved in the draft this year.
Isiah Thomas would be a better candidate.
Happy to concede to your assessment. My point was slightly different though: Namely that the picks of recent years haven't been all bad, and a rotation can be built with them and value for money additions.
Schwartz was not employed in those drafts. From what I have heard, he is a 'D-line whisperer.' As Tia has said before, he is practically certain to be involved in the draft this year.
Happy to concede to your assessment. My point was slightly different though: Namely that the picks of recent years haven't been all bad, and a rotation can be built with them and value for money additions.
I appreciate that, although it isn't so much a matter of concession really. I get where you're going and yes, rotation can be built on value. The key is not buying cheap for the sake of buying cheap, but to buy low where you think someone is underrated. I'd argue this front office has gone both the former and latter the last couple seasons on the defensive front 7 with oddly contrasting results.
Alex Wright wasn't a "good" pick by any stretch. Which brings up a further concern I'll address below...
But is that saying much?
Yes and no. It says this front office isn't afraid to make multiple positions picks with mid to late round resources to address depth concerns. But it does tell me that they might put a bit too much emphasis on RAS at times and overdraft players ahead of where they would project both from tape and consensus. Alex Wright is a prime example. He's a monster athlete and little else who was taken just outside the top 75 picks. He was then proceeded to be outplayed by a late 7th round pick in Isiah Thomas who was much more fundamentally sound edge.
Tommy Togiai is a minor example as well. His bench was impressive. Not much else. I watched every game of his, being the Buckeye I am, and he was taken at least a full round too high. Over-valuation is a real problem.
Meanwhile Travis Jones was taken just several picks before. In my mind I would hope that Berry and Co. Wouldn't have been so enamored with Wright that they would have ignored potentially sacrificing a future late round pick in order to move up and address starting needs at IDL before depth elsewhere. Yes, yes I know about BPA. But if the argument was Wright > Jones as BPA, then the early returns indicate how we grade and prioritize positions and players is ..... Off.
Our best value picks on the edge have been our latest round(IT) our worst have been our earliest (Wright). Our best IDL pick has been our latest round (Perrion) while our worst has been our highest taken (Elliot). Again, I circle back to how the Browns grade, project then value these players.
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I believe there was a plan but a series of unfortunate happenings derailed anything that could happen.
let’s see if…
If Myles wasn’t a knucklehead. If Clowney wasn’t a lazy unmotivated turd. If Perrion wasn’t immature. If we kicked Myles inside for a series or two.I believe we started to hear Wrights name called a little more at the end of the season. Thomas is a late round lottery pick and Bryan had his flaws.
We drafted poorly with Tommy and Elliot but Neither were Day 1 or second round picks…you all want to invest in the position there…I get it. At what expense do we take away from other positions? 2020 We needed a Tackle, 2021 we needed a Corner (our other corner was never healthy), we needed a playmaker like JOK.
DE, DT, DT, DE definitely not our strongest unit but Not for lack of investment. We had some missed here. It Looks like we were hoping for monster years and scheme creativity with guys like Myles and Clowney and then rotational pieces filling in on a limited basis at other spots.
You can’t have it all…salary cap restricts it…some guys don’t want to come to a Cleveland…some other positions warrant attention as well. Buffalo went 13-3 with holes all over their secondary. The Giants made the playoffs with a very suspect WR core, the 49ers made the NFC championship Championship game with a 7th round QB. The bengals made due with a patchwork Oline, can I stop?
Why not Tariq Woolen in 5th instead of Martin Emmerson in the 3rd. We could have added another piece earlier in a position group that needed it.
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I believe there was a plan but a series of unfortunate happenings derailed anything that could happen.
let’s see if…
If Myles wasn’t a knucklehead. If Clowney wasn’t a lazy unmotivated turd. If Perrion wasn’t immature. If we kicked Myles inside for a series or two.I believe we started to hear Wrights name called a little more at the end of the season. Thomas is a late round lottery pick and Bryan had his flaws.
We drafted poorly with Tommy and Elliot but Neither were Day 1 or second round picks…you all want to invest in the position there…I get it. At what expense do we take away from other positions? 2020 We needed a Tackle, 2021 we needed a Corner (our other corner was never healthy), we needed a playmaker like JOK.
DE, DT, DT, DE definitely not our strongest unit but Not for lack of investment. We had some missed here. It Looks like we were hoping for monster years and scheme creativity with guys like Myles and Clowney and then rotational pieces filling in on a limited basis at other spots.
You can’t have it all…salary cap restricts it…some guys don’t want to come to a Cleveland…some other positions warrant attention as well. Buffalo went 13-3 with holes all over their secondary. The Giants made the playoffs with a very suspect WR core, the 49ers made the NFC championship Championship game with a 7th round QB. The bengals made due with a patchwork Oline, can I stop?
Why not Tariq Woolen in 5th instead of Martin Emmerson in the 3rd. We could have added another piece earlier in a position group that needed it.
If we kicked Myles inside for a series or two.
I never understood the casual fans obsession with this idea. But it screams of someone who has only ever played Madden. Reminds me of a conversation I had with our resident Chiefs troll when he bragged that Coach Spaggs was moving Chris Jones to play an edge spot on early downs. Ended up being a massive liability.
You all want to invest in the position there…I get it. At what expense do we take away from other positions?
I believe most of us (ok, me) asked for investment at any point, not top 60. The Dline has been slowly deteriorating for a few years and Malik McDowells departure turned it into a wasteland. This is the natural order of things - finding balance. As I've said, the Browns front office went so far in one direction by over-investing in the secondary, that they all but completely ignored the defensive front. This wasn't unseen either.
DE, DT, DT, DE definitely not our strongest unit but Not for lack of investment.
Not only is the Dline (besides Myles) our weakest unit, it is one of the very weakest position groups of any team in the entire NFL. And it's actually not even really all that close. So.... yeah, it's because of a lack of investment. Let me try this.
The secondary has two 1st round CB's, a 2nd round DB, a high-target FA DB, (soon to be gone) and a top 75 CB. You have a coach coming in that has tools to work with because there's talent on the backend.
You have a defensive coach coming in looking at cutting 3 players on the Dline alone who were all starters throughout the season. With the only saving grace for the others being that they're cheap rookies the front office feels hold SOME promise. Meaning that when the drawing board is hit, they'll be the first group to talk about fixing. You see the difference here now...
The Browns IDL has had ONE top 75 pick spent on it since (and including) 2016.
Let that sink in. Because that means the Browns have spent more on premium DBs the last 2 years, than the entire IDL in the past 8. In 2020 and 2021, plus bringing in Johnny J, sure it was justified. You can't walk out Karl Joesph with Andrew Sendejo and be like "yeah, we're good". That was the worst graded safety duo in the entire NFL for 2020. Which means the Browns hold that title for 2 different position groups in two different years in the last 3 seasons alone. That is a disgusting imbalance. To be fair, Delpit was drafted in 2020 and would have seen a ton of snaps if not for his injury. Still.... would Grant have rescued that group had he started? Hell no, he likely would have been even more of a liability than both those two.
Investment AND development. You don't have to invest if players step forward. But in 2021, Jordan Elliot and Tommy Togiai had their doors blown off so bad, it would take a level of spin to think they would be even average NFL starters the next (this past) season that I can't even imagine. Another issue I have with this front office, their harmful dedication to their picks even when not panning out. So when there is no sign of development, you have to circle back to investment. This goes double when your initial investment was looking at tweener players in hopes of finding late round gold under rocks anyway.
We had some missed here. It Looks like we were hoping for monster years and scheme creativity with guys like Myles and Clowney and then rotational pieces filling in on a limited basis at other spots.
Hope isn't a strategy. The Front office believed "their guys" were ready. Unfortunately their belief was delusion... at best.
You can’t have it all…salary cap restricts it…some guys don’t want to come to a Cleveland…some other positions warrant attention as well.
This is correct. But you can't have foundational flaws in your roster. Period. You can't field bottom tier NFL units and not expect to pay the price for it. But I look at the top teams in the AFC and I don't see entire units that are bottom feeders on those teams. Chiefs? Nope. Bengals? if not for injury, their Oline was coming along MUCH better than the 2021 season. Bills?... see below
Buffalo went 13-3 with holes all over their secondary.
What?
The Bills have one of the best safety duo's in the NFL.
They have one of the most promising young nickel corners in the NFL.
They have tre'davious white who was coming back from an injury.
They just spent a 1st round pick on a corner in the 2022 draft.
The Bills didn't have holes back there, and what holes they did wasn't from some lack of investment in either draft capital or free agency, but from injury. Where they DID have a hole was something I had mentioned when they played the Bengals... edge twitch. Their entire Dline is HUGE, and on the edge they have size and wingspan. This is the primary reason why they're so good against the run. What they lacked was a first step threat who could punish average tackles in space. Buffalo signed that threat, Von Miller, to a monster contract in the hopes they could give him a pitch count that involved rushing the passer only. Keeping him fresh and ready for a deep playoff push.
Then injury struck. As a result, no Von Miller meant the Bills weren't able to hurt the average play from the book-ends that the Bengals fielded. I can't remember if I posted it here or elsewhere, but that was the exact reason I took the Bengals to cover that day and specifically mentioned that matchup. After all, it isn't like their secondary was the problem. Joey Buckets just had an above average snap to throw time compared to what he had a various points throughout the postseason. Snap to throw time that would haunt them eventually.
The Giants made the playoffs with a very suspect WR core
Leaving out having a stable offensive line and a premier weapon in Saquon who finally stayed healthy. Also leaving out them further riding the legs of Danny Dimes. At one point, half way through the season, he was on pace for 1,000 rushing. It was a ball control offense made possible by having a sound defense, a favorable schedule in places and playing in a top heavy NFC. They also have some decent and young, but unspectacular players. I've little doubt they'll be investing into their skill positions this off-season.
the 49ers made the NFC championship Championship game with a 7th round QB.
Top to bottom, the Niners have one of the most complete teams in the NFL. I'm not sure if you even know where you're going with this. They're also, like I said above, fortunate to play in a weakened NFC. If anything, much like Philly, the Niners are the roster you would welcome a young QB to start in. Quality line play, weapons and a coach who knows how to use them, then a defense that can get you the ball back.
The bengals made due with a patchwork Oline, can I stop?
After spending $58 million on the Oline. Oh, they made due because of the quick brilliance of Joe Burrow... until their patchwork Oline is what held them back against the Chiefs. It wasn't patchwork by design, it was from injury.
You actually typing this with a straight face is.... concerning. Worse, I don't think you even understand the greater point you're trying to make. Mentioning the Gmen and their receivers like "Hey, Look, THEY went to the playoffs! Why couldn't we?" is tragic and short-sighted at best. Because the Browns DID go to the playoffs with an equivalently flawed defensive line in the 2020 season.... and look where that got us when we sat on our hands thinking it was good enough. You can have flash in the pan, one year type success with the right fortune. Will you sustain that though if you don't infuse needed talent into lacking position groups? No, the Browns (and many other teams) are proof of that. If the Gmen don't get WR corps experience and talent, what little they have will also dry and up and harm the overall production on the offensive side of the ball. Just as the Dline being a net negative harmed the Browns 2022 defensive production.
NOBODY is asking for top 50, pro bowl players. NFL average play would be a tearfully welcomed step up.
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