Brady Quinn sucks and always has! Can we please put Derek Anderson back in.
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This arm strength issue I think is misunderstood. It's not how far you can throw (most of us can throw it 40 yards NFLers can do 60 or so) it's how fast the ball gets to the spot. Recievers in the NFL are almost never wide-open. A QB has got to be able to get it there quickly and accurately. Brady doesn't bother throwing a lot of passes because his arm cannot get it there fast enough. That's the issue with his arm strength. There are a lot of plays left on the field when your QB can't make throws.
And I'm not saying DA is great either, I'm mostly saying Quinn is bad and he may always be. If I am wrong about this I'll be very, very happy and will go out and get a Quinn jersey.But I just feel like I'm watching Charlie Frye all over again. It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.
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It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.
Masters said:
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
Masters said:
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
You make a good point on Rogers. Though I'd agrue he sat 4 years compared to 2, and got all the work in camp last year (by that I more mean he had one thing on his mind, prepare for the regular season, as oppossed to competing to be the starter, then preparing).
Flacco and Ryan did look good for rookies. Ryan didn't actually go to a terrible team. He went to a team that took a major hit of losing their QB to jail before the start of the 2007 season and a coach quitting on them. The talent was still their and they bolstered it by adding Turner, who took a ton of pressure of Ryan (Flacco had the running game and the D taking the pressure of him). What I would expect is Quinn to look similar or a little better than either of those guys did in their 4th start (Ryan had a very bad day against CAR and Flacco had a very bad day against TEN).
I don't see the solid OL you speak of, at least on the right side. Womack and St. Clair were less than solid most of the game. They were getting driven back and run past. Quinn did look uncomfortable early and more as the pressure continued to get to him. But he also stood in their and took hits while delivering the ball.
As to the expectation of a bonified NFL QB would do againts the Viking, I think it was in this thread, I pointed out what some of the top NFL QBs that faced the Vikes did last year, and it wasn't all that impressive (most had more picks than TDs, and 3~5 sacks). So even "bonified" NFL QBs didn't come up with the statline you think a bonified QB would have.
1. Yes, Chud was not to bright w/ the heavy throwing in the DEC conditions. But all of those picks weren't the wind. They were throws where you shouldn't throw (double coverage) or just bad throws (i.e. no CLE player near where the ball went).
2. And this year there are more? I saw DA stare down Edwards before he gave up on BE an started staring down Winslow. Most cases he stared them down from pre-snap all the way to the throw.
3. And SUN CLE actually had a semblance of a running game in the first half, yet Dabol all but completely abandoned it.
4. You got me some on this one. Because DA was making those same mistakes when CLE wasn't down and the D was holding. One example, the BALT game where DA threw the pick 6. And again, where are these targets now for either guy?
Right now, with no D (at least for 4 QTRs), no targets, and no running game, it's the same thing as last year. So really how can either have a better chance to win. DA did no better in the same situation last year, so why would it be any different now?
We don't know that we have seen Brady's best. But if you had me chose between the single sampling of the DEN game vs. DA's 1st half of 2007 + the NYG game last year, I am going to take the DEN game all day long. Now if we want just a choice between the G-men game and the DEN game, I'll take the G-men game. But unfortunately history has shown me that is the high DA will give me, but it always comes with an equal low.
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You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
You make a good point on Rogers. Though I'd agrue he sat 4 years compared to 2, and got all the work in camp last year (by that I more mean he had one thing on his mind, prepare for the regular season, as oppossed to competing to be the starter, then preparing).
Flacco and Ryan did look good for rookies. Ryan didn't actually go to a terrible team. He went to a team that took a major hit of losing their QB to jail before the start of the 2007 season and a coach quitting on them. The talent was still their and they bolstered it by adding Turner, who took a ton of pressure of Ryan (Flacco had the running game and the D taking the pressure of him). What I would expect is Quinn to look similar or a little better than either of those guys did in their 4th start (Ryan had a very bad day against CAR and Flacco had a very bad day against TEN).
I don't see the solid OL you speak of, at least on the right side. Womack and St. Clair were less than solid most of the game. They were getting driven back and run past. Quinn did look uncomfortable early and more as the pressure continued to get to him. But he also stood in their and took hits while delivering the ball.
As to the expectation of a bonified NFL QB would do againts the Viking, I think it was in this thread, I pointed out what some of the top NFL QBs that faced the Vikes did last year, and it wasn't all that impressive (most had more picks than TDs, and 3~5 sacks). So even "bonified" NFL QBs didn't come up with the statline you think a bonified QB would have.
1. Yes, Chud was not to bright w/ the heavy throwing in the DEC conditions. But all of those picks weren't the wind. They were throws where you shouldn't throw (double coverage) or just bad throws (i.e. no CLE player near where the ball went).
2. And this year there are more? I saw DA stare down Edwards before he gave up on BE an started staring down Winslow. Most cases he stared them down from pre-snap all the way to the throw.
3. And SUN CLE actually had a semblance of a running game in the first half, yet Dabol all but completely abandoned it.
4. You got me some on this one. Because DA was making those same mistakes when CLE wasn't down and the D was holding. One example, the BALT game where DA threw the pick 6. And again, where are these targets now for either guy?
Right now, with no D (at least for 4 QTRs), no targets, and no running game, it's the same thing as last year. So really how can either have a better chance to win. DA did no better in the same situation last year, so why would it be any different now?
We don't know that we have seen Brady's best. But if you had me chose between the single sampling of the DEN game vs. DA's 1st half of 2007 + the NYG game last year, I am going to take the DEN game all day long. Now if we want just a choice between the G-men game and the DEN game, I'll take the G-men game. But unfortunately history has shown me that is the high DA will give me, but it always comes with an equal low.
Masters said:
You make a good point on Rogers. Though I'd agrue he sat 4 years compared to 2, and got all the work in camp last year (by that I more mean he had one thing on his mind, prepare for the regular season, as oppossed to competing to be the starter, then preparing).Flacco and Ryan did look good for rookies. Ryan didn't actually go to a terrible team. He went to a team that took a major hit of losing their QB to jail before the start of the 2007 season and a coach quitting on them. The talent was still their and they bolstered it by adding Turner, who took a ton of pressure of Ryan (Flacco had the running game and the D taking the pressure of him). What I would expect is Quinn to look similar or a little better than either of those guys did in their 4th start (Ryan had a very bad day against CAR and Flacco had a very bad day against TEN).
I don't see the solid OL you speak of, at least on the right side. Womack and St. Clair were less than solid most of the game. They were getting driven back and run past. Quinn did look uncomfortable early and more as the pressure continued to get to him. But he also stood in their and took hits while delivering the ball.
As to the expectation of a bonified NFL QB would do againts the Viking, I think it was in this thread, I pointed out what some of the top NFL QBs that faced the Vikes did last year, and it wasn't all that impressive (most had more picks than TDs, and 3~5 sacks). So even "bonified" NFL QBs didn't come up with the statline you think a bonified QB would have.
1. Yes, Chud was not to bright w/ the heavy throwing in the DEC conditions. But all of those picks weren't the wind. They were throws where you shouldn't throw (double coverage) or just bad throws (i.e. no CLE player near where the ball went).
2. And this year there are more? I saw DA stare down Edwards before he gave up on BE an started staring down Winslow. Most cases he stared them down from pre-snap all the way to the throw.
3. And SUN CLE actually had a semblance of a running game in the first half, yet Dabol all but completely abandoned it.
4. You got me some on this one. Because DA was making those same mistakes when CLE wasn't down and the D was holding. One example, the BALT game where DA threw the pick 6. And again, where are these targets now for either guy?
Right now, with no D (at least for 4 QTRs), no targets, and no running game, it's the same thing as last year. So really how can either have a better chance to win. DA did no better in the same situation last year, so why would it be any different now?
We don't know that we have seen Brady's best. But if you had me chose between the single sampling of the DEN game vs. DA's 1st half of 2007 + the NYG game last year, I am going to take the DEN game all day long. Now if we want just a choice between the G-men game and the DEN game, I'll take the G-men game. But unfortunately history has shown me that is the high DA will give me, but it always comes with an equal low.
You make some very good points. And you're right about the right side of the line, that needs upgraded this offseason. I feel like you need to put a TE over there almost always but it's not as bad as the 5 sacks imply. And you're right about playing the Vikings, it's not easy for anybody. I'm not calling for BQs head and I think he needs a few weeks if not, a whole year to improve. I just fear that he isn't going to be a good QB (I hope he is) and I really can't stand another year worrying about the QBs. We have an entire team to worry about here. And DA does make some bad decisions but he too is a young QB and I was excited to see what he would do this year. It should be his make-or-break season. I hoped he would get the job and sink or swim this year and if he sank, hand it over to Brady. I just think DA can read a defense really well, and yes I really do believe that, it's just that he throws some bad balls and the worst possible thing usually happens when he does.
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I was just doing it to compare 4th start vs 4th start. Next week will be 5th start vs 5th start. By the end of the year it should work out. It is similar age, similar situation & similar overall schedule. Obviously each start will not match up as talent level. For instance in Cincy two DA had a horrible game, I most certainly think that BQ will win that comparsion (that game is against the raiders).
You weren't comparing anything, just doing your typical Andersonite drivel. It is amazing people want to whine about Quinn, when his impact on the game, in the end was quite overrated.
The Browns were uncohesive pile of sheet, the coaching staff Tresselesque playcalling and players trying to figure out where to get in position at.
Yet, we whine about Quinn. Mercy.
You weren't comparing anything, just doing your typical Andersonite drivel. It is amazing people want to whine about Quinn, when his impact on the game, in the end was quite overrated.
The Browns were uncohesive pile of sheet, the coaching staff Tresselesque playcalling and players trying to figure out where to get in position at.
Yet, we whine about Quinn. Mercy.
Hey I have been told by many people on this board that the QB over comes lack of talent and coaching. A great QB rises above it and takes his team with him. That is the standard that the fans have demanded. And as far as I did not compare anything how is looking at a players stat line in his fourth start (at the same age mind you) versus another players stat line in his fourth start not a comparision?
Yea the Browns had other problems in this game, like they played a better team. The defense did not play that bad overall and besides if you want to look at defense in Anderson's fourth start the opponent scored 45 points.
I totally think it is fair to look at game by game comparisions. It will work out at the end of the season and you will get to compare BQ's progression VS DA's regression.
I am not saying start DA. I wouldn't, I would stay with BQ at the minimum of 10 weeks. If it is a lost season AND BQ is not showing progression then I would probably bench him just so he didn't get his bonus.
This is about comparing the two QBs we have at similar stages in their careers. And remember BQ does have the advantage of a better coaching staff (that is what I have been told at least). Too me the play calling looked far to similar to last year and I DON"T think that is BQ's fault.
But yea, there is allot of blame to throw around but in this game the QB did nothing to help the team and did help them lose. But, it is one game. Time to move on against a weaker opponent and even up the record. Which just so you know I do think the Browns will win this game and BQ will have a much improved game.
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You weren't comparing anything, just doing your typical Andersonite drivel. It is amazing people want to whine about Quinn, when his impact on the game, in the end was quite overrated.
The Browns were uncohesive pile of sheet, the coaching staff Tresselesque playcalling and players trying to figure out where to get in position at.
Yet, we whine about Quinn. Mercy.
Hey I have been told by many people on this board that the QB over comes lack of talent and coaching. A great QB rises above it and takes his team with him. That is the standard that the fans have demanded. And as far as I did not compare anything how is looking at a players stat line in his fourth start (at the same age mind you) versus another players stat line in his fourth start not a comparision?
Yea the Browns had other problems in this game, like they played a better team. The defense did not play that bad overall and besides if you want to look at defense in Anderson's fourth start the opponent scored 45 points.
I totally think it is fair to look at game by game comparisions. It will work out at the end of the season and you will get to compare BQ's progression VS DA's regression.
I am not saying start DA. I wouldn't, I would stay with BQ at the minimum of 10 weeks. If it is a lost season AND BQ is not showing progression then I would probably bench him just so he didn't get his bonus.
This is about comparing the two QBs we have at similar stages in their careers. And remember BQ does have the advantage of a better coaching staff (that is what I have been told at least). Too me the play calling looked far to similar to last year and I DON"T think that is BQ's fault.
But yea, there is allot of blame to throw around but in this game the QB did nothing to help the team and did help them lose. But, it is one game. Time to move on against a weaker opponent and even up the record. Which just so you know I do think the Browns will win this game and BQ will have a much improved game.
I am not saying start DA. I wouldn't, I would stay with BQ at the minimum of 10 weeks. If it is a lost season AND BQ is not showing progression then I would probably bench him just so he didn't get his bonus.
I don't think as fans, we really should give two shits about Quinns bonus kicking in. Have we become that big of losers? Seriously, what we are looking for is so far beyond worrying about paying the guy a bonus it ain't even funny.
I liked your first part of the post; Quinn, Anderson or whoever the hell else makes it here as the starting QB, needs to make those around him better. He needs to carry the SOB's. Plug and Play just about anyone on the depth chart and they need to find a way to make it happen.
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I am not saying start DA. I wouldn't, I would stay with BQ at the minimum of 10 weeks. If it is a lost season AND BQ is not showing progression then I would probably bench him just so he didn't get his bonus.
I don't think as fans, we really should give two shits about Quinns bonus kicking in. Have we become that big of losers? Seriously, what we are looking for is so far beyond worrying about paying the guy a bonus it ain't even funny.
I liked your first part of the post; Quinn, Anderson or whoever the hell else makes it here as the starting QB, needs to make those around him better. He needs to carry the SOB's. Plug and Play just about anyone on the depth chart and they need to find a way to make it happen.
I don't think as fans, we really should give two shits about Quinns bonus kicking in.
All I care about seeing is a QB putting some freakin jumper cables on this offense and providing enough juice so I never have to revisit any of the following:
1) Fire the OC
2) Cut the WRs
3) The oline sucks
4) Bring in a new a RB! Remember the guy we dragged out of his marijuana sebatical (Rashaan Salaam)? If that wasn't OUR team that woulda been pretty freakin funny.
5) Fire the Head Coach
6) Fire the GM
7) Fire the popcorn vendors
Quit selling bottled beer at the stadium9) Blame the refs
10) we shouldn't expect too much because this is only our umpteenth year of rebuilding
When the RIGHT QB comes of age - all that stuff disappears faster than Madonna's underwear on a date.
The restrictions on DBs and various rule changes continuing to unfold have really made this a league about the QB. Well balanced attacks are usually the best way to play chess. As we've seen in the last 2 SBs. The last 4 minutes were ALL about the QBs leadign their teams to go ahead points on BOTH sides of the matchup. End result? The league was happy countless fans were telling them "Great Superbowl."
Look, I've never REALLY hated DA. He had MORE chances to become Brian Sipe than Brian Sipe got back in the day. If mission was accomplished - Brady Quinn would have been about as popular around here as Mike Phipps became once everyone saw Sipe's act. The difference? Phipps got countless starts while nobody wanted to step up and say - "ummm, there's still there's no progress." Then Sipe enters a game or two and people start to ask - "should it have looked that easy?" "I didn't know we had receivers that could play." "For that matter, I didn't know Sipe could play." It's amazing what giving a guy that chance to play can actually allow a guy to accomplish. NOBODY on this planet can play from the sidelines.
Like I've said, since our organization drafted Quinn in the first round - I'd like to see the kid succeed. We can pretend first round commitments at the QB position for a franchise in transition aren't any more significant than any other commitments. But we know deep down - if you're wrong about that QB - you're the Cincy Bengals. If you're right? You're the Atlanta Falcons, Philly Eagles, Pittsburgh Steelers, Baltimore Ravens. We've been right before and I think we found the 80s to be a fun era.
- Tom F.
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@shepwrite said:
I am totally willing to say Quinn sucks and isn't going to work out if and when that time comes. It's at least 7 or 8 starts away.Me? I'm willing to give it this entire season, for starters. We're not winning the Super Bowl anyway. Might as well see what we have.
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Masters said:
You make a good point on Rogers. Though I'd agrue he sat 4 years compared to 2, and got all the work in camp last year (by that I more mean he had one thing on his mind, prepare for the regular season, as oppossed to competing to be the starter, then preparing).Flacco and Ryan did look good for rookies. Ryan didn't actually go to a terrible team. He went to a team that took a major hit of losing their QB to jail before the start of the 2007 season and a coach quitting on them. The talent was still their and they bolstered it by adding Turner, who took a ton of pressure of Ryan (Flacco had the running game and the D taking the pressure of him). What I would expect is Quinn to look similar or a little better than either of those guys did in their 4th start (Ryan had a very bad day against CAR and Flacco had a very bad day against TEN).
I don't see the solid OL you speak of, at least on the right side. Womack and St. Clair were less than solid most of the game. They were getting driven back and run past. Quinn did look uncomfortable early and more as the pressure continued to get to him. But he also stood in their and took hits while delivering the ball.
As to the expectation of a bonified NFL QB would do againts the Viking, I think it was in this thread, I pointed out what some of the top NFL QBs that faced the Vikes did last year, and it wasn't all that impressive (most had more picks than TDs, and 3~5 sacks). So even "bonified" NFL QBs didn't come up with the statline you think a bonified QB would have.
1. Yes, Chud was not to bright w/ the heavy throwing in the DEC conditions. But all of those picks weren't the wind. They were throws where you shouldn't throw (double coverage) or just bad throws (i.e. no CLE player near where the ball went).
2. And this year there are more? I saw DA stare down Edwards before he gave up on BE an started staring down Winslow. Most cases he stared them down from pre-snap all the way to the throw.
3. And SUN CLE actually had a semblance of a running game in the first half, yet Dabol all but completely abandoned it.
4. You got me some on this one. Because DA was making those same mistakes when CLE wasn't down and the D was holding. One example, the BALT game where DA threw the pick 6. And again, where are these targets now for either guy?
Right now, with no D (at least for 4 QTRs), no targets, and no running game, it's the same thing as last year. So really how can either have a better chance to win. DA did no better in the same situation last year, so why would it be any different now?
We don't know that we have seen Brady's best. But if you had me chose between the single sampling of the DEN game vs. DA's 1st half of 2007 + the NYG game last year, I am going to take the DEN game all day long. Now if we want just a choice between the G-men game and the DEN game, I'll take the G-men game. But unfortunately history has shown me that is the high DA will give me, but it always comes with an equal low.
You make some very good points. And you're right about the right side of the line, that needs upgraded this offseason. I feel like you need to put a TE over there almost always but it's not as bad as the 5 sacks imply. And you're right about playing the Vikings, it's not easy for anybody. I'm not calling for BQs head and I think he needs a few weeks if not, a whole year to improve. I just fear that he isn't going to be a good QB (I hope he is) and I really can't stand another year worrying about the QBs. We have an entire team to worry about here. And DA does make some bad decisions but he too is a young QB and I was excited to see what he would do this year. It should be his make-or-break season. I hoped he would get the job and sink or swim this year and if he sank, hand it over to Brady. I just think DA can read a defense really well, and yes I really do believe that, it's just that he throws some bad balls and the worst possible thing usually happens when he does.
You make some very good points. And you're right about the right side of the line, that needs upgraded this offseason. I feel like you need to put a TE over there almost always but it's not as bad as the 5 sacks imply. And you're right about playing the Vikings, it's not easy for anybody. I'm not calling for BQs head and I think he needs a few weeks if not, a whole year to improve. I just fear that he isn't going to be a good QB (I hope he is) and I really can't stand another year worrying about the QBs. We have an entire team to worry about here. And DA does make some bad decisions but he too is a young QB and I was excited to see what he would do this year. It should be his make-or-break season. I hoped he would get the job and sink or swim this year and if he sank, hand it over to Brady. I just think DA can read a defense really well, and yes I really do believe that, it's just that he throws some bad balls and the worst possible thing usually happens when he does.
I view Quinn very much the same way you do really. I wasn't high on him coming out and I sure as heck didn't want CLE to ever consider him with the 3rd over all pick in the 2007 draft. I was quite happy to see CLE initially pass him over. But like you I do have hopes that he succeeds. He has a lot of tools working in his favor, but some working againts. To me, he was similar to the Drew Brees mold coming in. Whether he can put it together is what is in question. But he has to play to see what he is.
DA is a young QB as well. But he is a young QB with a very good number of starts to look at and make a judgement on. Quinn doesn't and any NFL team can't leave a 1st RD QB on the bench in favor of a 6th round pick from another team (claimed from PS waivers) who has had 25+ starts and show little to know development. I would never say seriously that DA can't ever get better. Every person can improve at anything. But so far there had been no signs that the improvement will be in the near future. I certainly wish I could share your beliefe that DA can read a defense, but what I have seen from his first start in 2006 to his last start in 2008 doesn't jive with the idea. The same read mistake (against in division opponents) occur. As I said though, it could all one day click for DA.
If CLE was a team where QB was the only weak area and they had long current winning history, I'd be more than willing to give DA even more of a leash, but it's not where the team is.
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This arm strength issue I think is misunderstood. It's not how far you can throw (most of us can throw it 40 yards NFLers can do 60 or so) it's how fast the ball gets to the spot. Recievers in the NFL are almost never wide-open. A QB has got to be able to get it there quickly and accurately. Brady doesn't bother throwing a lot of passes because his arm cannot get it there fast enough. That's the issue with his arm strength. There are a lot of plays left on the field when your QB can't make throws.
And I'm not saying DA is great either, I'm mostly saying Quinn is bad and he may always be. If I am wrong about this I'll be very, very happy and will go out and get a Quinn jersey.But I just feel like I'm watching Charlie Frye all over again. It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
This arm strength issue I think is misunderstood. It's not how far you can throw (most of us can throw it 40 yards NFLers can do 60 or so) it's how fast the ball gets to the spot. Recievers in the NFL are almost never wide-open. A QB has got to be able to get it there quickly and accurately. Brady doesn't bother throwing a lot of passes because his arm cannot get it there fast enough. That's the issue with his arm strength. There are a lot of plays left on the field when your QB can't make throws.
And I'm not saying DA is great either, I'm mostly saying Quinn is bad and he may always be. If I am wrong about this I'll be very, very happy and will go out and get a Quinn jersey.But I just feel like I'm watching Charlie Frye all over again. It's his third year in the league, he should be a lot more comfortable and effective at this point.
Anderson can get it there quickly allright. Sorry about the accuracy thing- he totally sucks in that regard. Interesting article in the Sporting News about a trait Peyton Manning has that Anderson seriously lacks- PM almost never tosses a ball that gets his wr hung out to dry for a kill shot- something that Anderson does on a regular basis.
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Masters said:
But how much live game has he seen in those 3 years? Film study is one thing and so is practice. But nothing replaces the experience of playing in real games (and no pre-season games don't count) with a live D.You make a good point but when I look at Aaron Rogers, he stepped in last year and completely understood what he was seeing and doing after sitting 4 years. He didn't panic. Even looking at the rookie class of last year. Flacco and Ryan. Ryan especially, started for a terrible team and if anyone had a reason to be uncomfortable in the pocket it would be him. Instead he became Matty Ice. Brady looks like a first year, first time starter and he shouldn't. He has a very solid line in front of him and he can't settle down. Even last year, against the Broncos who were shreaded by every other team in the league, he looked uncomfortable. I truly believe it's because his abilities limit what he can do so he swallows the ball and hopes a TE or RB can get open in a hurry. If he were a bonified starting QB in this league he would be 16 of 24 1 TD 0 ints 3 sacks. Yes, even against the Vikings.
DA does have a knack for making bad decisions but if you look at his history you will see......
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
2. Last year, ZERO targets to choose from. After Braylon kept dropping passes I saw DA begin to throw into his gut instead of his hands and he still dropped them. After awhile DA just stared down Winslow, and can you blame him? That's all he had. This is why he was so ineffective.
3. Last year he had no running game whatsoever. Chud refused to run the ball even when we were in games late. Rediculous.
4. Last year, no defense. DA (still, a young QB) was forced to try and make things happen for the team. This is where he makes the bulk of his mistakes, and he did make mistakes. Half of which could have been avoided if the QB has targets and a running game which we do now. Trouble is, we also have a QB that cannot utilize what he has. It's like buying a corvette with a manual transmission and you can't drive stick, what good is it? It looks good, it's fun to show off, and it can go fast but the driver can't even get it started.
Dammit! I sound like a DA honk again! I'm not trying to but that's just how I see it. DA gives us the best chance to win.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
1. Second half of the season in 07 Chud decided throwing the ball would be a great idea in the cold, windy months with a young QB. Your QB will fail. Against Cinci, he, I believe, threw the ball over 30 times starting early in the game and the wind was over 40mph. No QB can succeed in those conditions.
Look at it like this, if both QBs are mediocre. as they are. then who do you want in there when at their best? Brady at his best (see denver 08) or DA at his best (half of 07 and against NY last year)?
Regarding assertion #1 WRONG. Ben Rothlisberger completed completed an insanely high percentage of passes in a game (something like 65%) when he was playing for Miami of Ohio in a freaking hurricane- gusts over 50mph- the reason I wanted to draft the kid when we had a chance to. For those with a short attention span, Benny Boy repeated that feat against the Browns- 65% completion percentage- when Hurricane Ike blew through Cleveland last September. DA? 56%, 2 picks, rating 44. Apples to apples.
It's yet to be seen what Quinn's "best" is. He gets all year to show what he has. What I've seen is Anderson has seriously regressed from his "best". It ain't exactly Rocket Science- defenses figured out take away DA's deep stuff- and make him beat you short. Sorry, FAIL.
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@shepwrite said:
Seriously, if anybody really thinks 21 for 35 for 205 and a pick (with a TD canceled by penalty) is a horrific first game in your first season as a starter? Against one of the league's best defenses?Boy, are you nutso.
His 4th qtr was great. yay.
But thru 3 qtrs he had only 72 yds passing and a passer rating in the 30's. And the O had produced 2 FGs, one by way of a botched onside kick.
By the way, let me take a wild guess shep, Lane Adkins is no longer your favorite insider over on OBR?
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You make some very good points. And you're right about the right side of the line, that needs upgraded this offseason. I feel like you need to put a TE over there almost always but it's not as bad as the 5 sacks imply. And you're right about playing the Vikings, it's not easy for anybody. I'm not calling for BQs head and I think he needs a few weeks if not, a whole year to improve. I just fear that he isn't going to be a good QB (I hope he is) and I really can't stand another year worrying about the QBs. We have an entire team to worry about here. And DA does make some bad decisions but he too is a young QB and I was excited to see what he would do this year. It should be his make-or-break season. I hoped he would get the job and sink or swim this year and if he sank, hand it over to Brady. I just think DA can read a defense really well, and yes I really do believe that, it's just that he throws some bad balls and the worst possible thing usually happens when he does.
I view Quinn very much the same way you do really. I wasn't high on him coming out and I sure as heck didn't want CLE to ever consider him with the 3rd over all pick in the 2007 draft. I was quite happy to see CLE initially pass him over. But like you I do have hopes that he succeeds. He has a lot of tools working in his favor, but some working againts. To me, he was similar to the Drew Brees mold coming in. Whether he can put it together is what is in question. But he has to play to see what he is.
DA is a young QB as well. But he is a young QB with a very good number of starts to look at and make a judgement on. Quinn doesn't and any NFL team can't leave a 1st RD QB on the bench in favor of a 6th round pick from another team (claimed from PS waivers) who has had 25+ starts and show little to know development. I would never say seriously that DA can't ever get better. Every person can improve at anything. But so far there had been no signs that the improvement will be in the near future. I certainly wish I could share your beliefe that DA can read a defense, but what I have seen from his first start in 2006 to his last start in 2008 doesn't jive with the idea. The same read mistake (against in division opponents) occur. As I said though, it could all one day click for DA.
If CLE was a team where QB was the only weak area and they had long current winning history, I'd be more than willing to give DA even more of a leash, but it's not where the team is.
Masters said:
If CLE was a team where QB was the only weak area and they had long current winning history, I'd be more than willing to give DA even more of a leash, but it's not where the team is.GREAT GREAT GREAT post, Mik.
And great summation of the last two years of this discussion, for all those who actually believe wanting Quinn to succeed means wanting DA to fail.
Quite the opposite is true. Having DA mature into a legit starting QB would have been a HUGE win for the organization, like winning the lottery. Didn't happen.
And had the organization not invested a first-round pick (forget money, that's replaceable; top picks are the true currency in the NFL) in Quinn, we'd all be talking about DA's development (or lack thereof) and cheering for him to suddenly "get it" and become a top QB.
But that's not the case. The organization can't afford another busted first-rounder, especially without him being given a chance to succeed, so Quinn HAS to get a chance to develop before that pick is conisdered (another) bust.
It's just that simple, though some don't understand or care about how much Quinn busting hurts our team in the long-run.
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Masters said:
If CLE was a team where QB was the only weak area and they had long current winning history, I'd be more than willing to give DA even more of a leash, but it's not where the team is.GREAT GREAT GREAT post, Mik.
And great summation of the last two years of this discussion, for all those who actually believe wanting Quinn to succeed means wanting DA to fail.
Quite the opposite is true. Having DA mature into a legit starting QB would have been a HUGE win for the organization, like winning the lottery. Didn't happen.
And had the organization not invested a first-round pick (forget money, that's replaceable; top picks are the true currency in the NFL) in Quinn, we'd all be talking about DA's development (or lack thereof) and cheering for him to suddenly "get it" and become a top QB.
But that's not the case. The organization can't afford another busted first-rounder, especially without him being given a chance to succeed, so Quinn HAS to get a chance to develop before that pick is conisdered (another) bust.
It's just that simple, though some don't understand or care about how much Quinn busting hurts our team in the long-run.
GREAT GREAT GREAT post, Mik.
And great summation of the last two years of this discussion, for all those who actually believe wanting Quinn to succeed means wanting DA to fail.
Quite the opposite is true. Having DA mature into a legit starting QB would have been a HUGE win for the organization, like winning the lottery. Didn't happen.
And had the organization not invested a first-round pick (forget money, that's replaceable; top picks are the true currency in the NFL) in Quinn, we'd all be talking about DA's development (or lack thereof) and cheering for him to suddenly "get it" and become a top QB.
But that's not the case. The organization can't afford another busted first-rounder, especially without him being given a chance to succeed, so Quinn HAS to get a chance to develop before that pick is conisdered (another) bust.
It's just that simple, though some don't understand or care about how much Quinn busting hurts our team in the long-run. Quinn busting hurts the team?How so? You think the team will fall apart because some fans don't like/trust/want quinn as the Browns QB?Give me a break...I doubt that they care..what about DA busting? Lets say your boy goes down and(gasp) DA has to step in,according to your theory he will be traumatized,as well as the team as a whole by all the DA bashing that has went on. Talk about spinning a tale to suit your agenda!
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GREAT GREAT GREAT post, Mik.
And great summation of the last two years of this discussion, for all those who actually believe wanting Quinn to succeed means wanting DA to fail.
Quite the opposite is true. Having DA mature into a legit starting QB would have been a HUGE win for the organization, like winning the lottery. Didn't happen.
And had the organization not invested a first-round pick (forget money, that's replaceable; top picks are the true currency in the NFL) in Quinn, we'd all be talking about DA's development (or lack thereof) and cheering for him to suddenly "get it" and become a top QB.
But that's not the case. The organization can't afford another busted first-rounder, especially without him being given a chance to succeed, so Quinn HAS to get a chance to develop before that pick is conisdered (another) bust.
It's just that simple, though some don't understand or care about how much Quinn busting hurts our team in the long-run. Quinn busting hurts the team?How so? You think the team will fall apart because some fans don't like/trust/want quinn as the Browns QB?Give me a break...I doubt that they care..what about DA busting? Lets say your boy goes down and(gasp) DA has to step in,according to your theory he will be traumatized,as well as the team as a whole by all the DA bashing that has went on. Talk about spinning a tale to suit your agenda!
It's just that simple, though some don't understand or care about how much Quinn busting hurts our team in the long-run. Quinn busting hurts the team?How so? You think the team will fall apart because some fans don't like/trust/want quinn as the Browns QB?Give me a break...I doubt that they care..what about DA busting? Lets say your boy goes down and(gasp) DA has to step in,according to your theory he will be traumatized,as well as the team as a whole by all the DA bashing that has went on. Talk about spinning a tale to suit your agenda!
Who cares what DA does. The guy is useless here, heck, even he knows it. Quinn not panning out means another big resource having to be found.
Yet, the mindnumbing idiots can't figure that out. Amazing.
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Somewhat naive.....no??
Absolutely naive.
To claim Quinn isn't a (major?) part of the problem is more purposefully blind than naive. Is the the entire problem? Not from where I sit. But we need to see improvement. This Denver game will be a pretty big indicator for him, Daboll and the o-line, each of which needsome major redemption.
That said, and as lame as we looked, it sure as shit isn't panic time yet. Not sayng Quinn is Aikman or Manning, but they sucked early on too and were given time to improve and develop. That's the tricky think with young quarterbacks...how much time do you give them before you pull the plug???
mz. said:
Absolutely naive...how much time do you give them before you pull the plug???
That is the good question.
My feeling is this...either when the guy totally blows up which I hope doesn't and don't think it will.....or when he has played to a generally low level and we are nearing that 70% of snaps mark.
I don't want his salary to escalate to the next level if the guy isn't looking like he is worth the money.
I guess that would be about game 7(after)....I say 7 because we need to give ourself a little cushion.
Brady isn't a raw rookie just as Aaron Rogers wasn't a raw rookie when he took over. While Quinn is going to have some bugs to work out, 7 games should be enough of a test to give us a pretty good indication as to what sort of QB he is going to be....one who's salary needs to remain at it's present level or one who deserves to be elevated towards elite qb salary level.
JMO
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What did you guys think??? Quinn was going to come in, and all our problems would be solved? The qb is just the tip of the iceberg, here. We need to keep Quinn in there to establish some stability. From what I've seen, I'll take him over DA anytime. This was the coach's first game......give them a little more time to figure things out. If Quinn really sucks, we will know it by game # 8, although I thought he had a lot of positive things going on yesterday. The first half of the game was solid.....ultimately, our defense wore down due to the offense going 3 and out too much. While Quinn definitely threw some bad passes, he ran the offense well. The offensive play calling kind of sucked. The Vikings are hyped to be one of the elite teams this season. If that turns out to be true, then yesterday wasn't as bad as it seems. I say we go 8 - 8 this season. We will continue to improve, but realistically, we don't have the talent to compete for 4 quarters with the top teams. Hopefully, Mangini will change that.
excuses,excuses,excuses....you are talking in paradoxes,"quinn ran the offense well" followed by "our defense wore down due to the offense going 3 and out too much"...you can't have it both ways.Quinn, a 3 year player,has no accuracy,I have also seen the excuse"well he was nervous" this guy was suppossed to be NFL ready coming outta college..I gotta hand it to you quinn fans,you're loyal,deluded,and refuse to face facts,but loyal.If this turd hasn't got it figured out by game6 then his place is the bench.
excuses,excuses,excuses....you are talking in paradoxes,"quinn ran the offense well" followed by "our defense wore down due to the offense going 3 and out too much"...you can't have it both ways.Quinn, a 3 year player,has no accuracy,I have also seen the excuse"well he was nervous" this guy was suppossed to be NFL ready coming outta college..I gotta hand it to you quinn fans,you're loyal,deluded,and refuse to face facts,but loyal.If this turd hasn't got it figured out by game6 then his place is the bench.
So, then...in your world, Quinn is entirely resposible for the offense not producing in every situation. That's total crap! I made every excuse I could for Anderson, and still would, if he were in there. I'm not really a "Quinn fan"...I'm a Browns' fan. Quinn may be a "3 year player"...but you have to take into consideration his limited playing time. I have no loyalty to any player....just the team. If you have some reason to think that DA should be the qb, explain.....but don't give me that crap about him being a pro bowler......that's ancient history.
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You make some very good points. And you're right about the right side of the line, that needs upgraded this offseason. I feel like you need to put a TE over there almost always but it's not as bad as the 5 sacks imply. And you're right about playing the Vikings, it's not easy for anybody. I'm not calling for BQs head and I think he needs a few weeks if not, a whole year to improve. I just fear that he isn't going to be a good QB (I hope he is) and I really can't stand another year worrying about the QBs. We have an entire team to worry about here. And DA does make some bad decisions but he too is a young QB and I was excited to see what he would do this year. It should be his make-or-break season. I hoped he would get the job and sink or swim this year and if he sank, hand it over to Brady. I just think DA can read a defense really well, and yes I really do believe that, it's just that he throws some bad balls and the worst possible thing usually happens when he does.
I view Quinn very much the same way you do really. I wasn't high on him coming out and I sure as heck didn't want CLE to ever consider him with the 3rd over all pick in the 2007 draft. I was quite happy to see CLE initially pass him over. But like you I do have hopes that he succeeds. He has a lot of tools working in his favor, but some working againts. To me, he was similar to the Drew Brees mold coming in. Whether he can put it together is what is in question. But he has to play to see what he is.
DA is a young QB as well. But he is a young QB with a very good number of starts to look at and make a judgement on. Quinn doesn't and any NFL team can't leave a 1st RD QB on the bench in favor of a 6th round pick from another team (claimed from PS waivers) who has had 25+ starts and show little to know development. I would never say seriously that DA can't ever get better. Every person can improve at anything. But so far there had been no signs that the improvement will be in the near future. I certainly wish I could share your beliefe that DA can read a defense, but what I have seen from his first start in 2006 to his last start in 2008 doesn't jive with the idea. The same read mistake (against in division opponents) occur. As I said though, it could all one day click for DA.
If CLE was a team where QB was the only weak area and they had long current winning history, I'd be more than willing to give DA even more of a leash, but it's not where the team is.
Masters said:
I view Quinn very much the same way you do really. I wasn't high on him coming out and I sure as heck didn't want CLE to ever consider him with the 3rd over all pick in the 2007 draft. I was quite happy to see CLE initially pass him over. But like you I do have hopes that he succeeds. He has a lot of tools working in his favor, but some working againts. To me, he was similar to the Drew Brees mold coming in. Whether he can put it together is what is in question. But he has to play to see what he is.DA is a young QB as well. But he is a young QB with a very good number of starts to look at and make a judgement on. Quinn doesn't and any NFL team can't leave a 1st RD QB on the bench in favor of a 6th round pick from another team (claimed from PS waivers) who has had 25+ starts and show little to know development. I would never say seriously that DA can't ever get better. Every person can improve at anything. But so far there had been no signs that the improvement will be in the near future. I certainly wish I could share your beliefe that DA can read a defense, but what I have seen from his first start in 2006 to his last start in 2008 doesn't jive with the idea. The same read mistake (against in division opponents) occur. As I said though, it could all one day click for DA.
If CLE was a team where QB was the only weak area and they had long current winning history, I'd be more than willing to give DA even more of a leash, but it's not where the team is.
It sounds like we are almost in total agreement. It is do-or-die for whichever one of them started this year. It's Brady's turn to make something out of this. I don't see anything wrong with letting him play the entire year good-or-bad.
And about DA reading a defense, He's no Peyton Manning but he is, at this point, much better than Quinn. A lot of his deep throws are a result of him spotting something pre-snap. This is what some people misinterperate as "staring down a reciever" The result of which is usually positive unless BE drops it. Most of his big plays have come from a pre-snap read that he and Braylon both recognize and agree on. I have yet to see Quinn do this with any reciever in any game yet. DA's biggest problems are forcing short routes and getting picked and sailing shorter out routes and getting picked. I feel like if he can fix these two things, which can be easily fixed, he has more of an upside than Quinn. With that said however, at this point Quinn should get the whole year to show what he's got unless he is the only reason we're losing.
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