Has The Winslow Trade Hurt Quinns Development?
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Kellen was a huge target for Brady Quinn and his favorite as was evidence in BQ's first start against Denver last season where he had an amazing game. Winslow was the biggest part of that Broncos game amassing over 200 yards. In my opinion losing Kellen is really holding Quinn back to excel. Royall and Heiden may be great blockers and Kellen may not, but what K2 brings in the passing game far supersedes anything those two do. K2 was Quinns first option much how BE is DA's. Sorry folks, but I felt than and still feel now after Sundays performance the biggest mistake this FO has made was getting rid of K2. The guy wasnt that bad of a character guy as some of you seem to think, nothing like TO or Ocho. He made some bad decisions early in his career but is the best pass catching TE in the NFL and you just cant replace that especially when your QB relies on him the most!
Im still a huge K2 fan and will keep an eye on him throughout his career, damn what could have been! BQ and K2...
Some would argue that having a hybrid TE/WR hurts a quarterback's development. He becomes too attached. But that's not why he's not in Cleveland. Winslow is gone because he's a liability in the running game. And ask any quarterback if he'd rather have a fast pass-catching TE or a running game... and they'll answer "running game" every time.
-jj
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A large chunk of K2's 200 yds (and the 1st TD) came from those seam routes that "Quinn just can't seam(yes, I'm awesome) to make.". Maybe those throws were missing from the Minn game because we didn't have a receiver (TE)capable of running them as dominately as K2 did.
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This could then simply be a case of BQ not being on the same page with the TE's. BQ not developing cos K2 is not around shows BQ in poor light. Besides i wonder what K2 would have done against the Minnesota D.
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Kellen was a huge target for Brady Quinn and his favorite as was evidence in BQ's first start against Denver last season where he had an amazing game. Winslow was the biggest part of that Broncos game amassing over 200 yards. In my opinion losing Kellen is really holding Quinn back to excel. Royall and Heiden may be great blockers and Kellen may not, but what K2 brings in the passing game far supersedes anything those two do. K2 was Quinns first option much how BE is DA's. Sorry folks, but I felt than and still feel now after Sundays performance the biggest mistake this FO has made was getting rid of K2. The guy wasnt that bad of a character guy as some of you seem to think, nothing like TO or Ocho. He made some bad decisions early in his career but is the best pass catching TE in the NFL and you just cant replace that especially when your QB relies on him the most!
Im still a huge K2 fan and will keep an eye on him throughout his career, damn what could have been! BQ and K2...
I think in K2 Quinn had a guy which he believed would catch the pass.
If Braylon caught 4 of every 5 passes thrown his way Quinn would trust him too. It's like the old Snickers commercial where the WR is having a breakdown on the field. He says to the coach, "That QB doesn't like me," and the Coach yells back, "You've dropped 3 of his passes!!!" "Well why can't he feel my pain?"
K2 didn't ask Quinn to feel his pain, he just caught the darn ball. BE on the other hand, like WR from the commercial, needs someone to coddle him and say, "Turn that frown upside-down."
Kellen was a huge target for Brady Quinn and his favorite as was evidence in BQ's first start against Denver last season where he had an amazing game. Winslow was the biggest part of that Broncos game amassing over 200 yards. In my opinion losing Kellen is really holding Quinn back to excel. Royall and Heiden may be great blockers and Kellen may not, but what K2 brings in the passing game far supersedes anything those two do. K2 was Quinns first option much how BE is DA's. Sorry folks, but I felt than and still feel now after Sundays performance the biggest mistake this FO has made was getting rid of K2. The guy wasnt that bad of a character guy as some of you seem to think, nothing like TO or Ocho. He made some bad decisions early in his career but is the best pass catching TE in the NFL and you just cant replace that especially when your QB relies on him the most!
Im still a huge K2 fan and will keep an eye on him throughout his career, damn what could have been! BQ and K2...
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Kellen was a huge target for Brady Quinn and his favorite as was evidence in BQ's first start against Denver last season where he had an amazing game. Winslow was the biggest part of that Broncos game amassing over 200 yards. In my opinion losing Kellen is really holding Quinn back to excel. Royall and Heiden may be great blockers and Kellen may not, but what K2 brings in the passing game far supersedes anything those two do. K2 was Quinns first option much how BE is DA's. Sorry folks, but I felt than and still feel now after Sundays performance the biggest mistake this FO has made was getting rid of K2. The guy wasnt that bad of a character guy as some of you seem to think, nothing like TO or Ocho. He made some bad decisions early in his career but is the best pass catching TE in the NFL and you just cant replace that especially when your QB relies on him the most!
Im still a huge K2 fan and will keep an eye on him throughout his career, damn what could have been! BQ and K2...
Some would argue that having a hybrid TE/WR hurts a quarterback's development. He becomes too attached. But that's not why he's not in Cleveland. Winslow is gone because he's a liability in the running game. And ask any quarterback if he'd rather have a fast pass-catching TE or a running game... and they'll answer "running game" every time.
-jj
Some would argue that having a hybrid TE/WR hurts a quarterback's development. He becomes too attached. But that's not why he's not in Cleveland. Winslow is gone because he's a liability in the running game. And ask any quarterback if he'd rather have a fast pass-catching TE or a running game... and they'll answer "running game" every time.
-jj
Thing is if we traded Winslow for a better running game why didn't we draft a RB or RT capable of doing something instead of two WR's. McCoy was there, Greene was there. Now maybe they think Davis is just as good, that is yet to be seen, those guys are gonna be pretty good IMO.
Also we're still a few years away from a good running game. The right side of the line isn't very good, Jamal is on his last leg, why not at least keep K2 this season and help build Quinns confidence. Nothing they did this season bolstered our running game so why trade K2 because he's a liability in it. On third downs K2 was our best option and Quinn doesn't have that safety valve now.
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Still don't see the logic, we didn't gain anything. Without Winslow the running game is still gonna be average at best. We all know the strength of this Oline is its zone and pass blocking ability and that suits a TE like Winslow's blocking just fine. With K2 Quinn gets a lot more completions, first downs and touchdowns, which in turn equates to WINS. You can't tell me the NFL is going to fear our smash mouth running game now that we've got Royal rather than Winslow can you? Winslow gives DC's much more problems scheming than our running game ever will this year. An apple is still an apple even if you want it to be an orange and this Oline and running game isn't the one of the 80's with Byner, Mack and Co.
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Some would argue that having a hybrid TE/WR hurts a quarterback's development. He becomes too attached. But that's not why he's not in Cleveland. Winslow is gone because he's a liability in the running game. And ask any quarterback if he'd rather have a fast pass-catching TE or a running game... and they'll answer "running game" every time.
-jj
Thing is if we traded Winslow for a better running game why didn't we draft a RB or RT capable of doing something instead of two WR's. McCoy was there, Greene was there. Now maybe they think Davis is just as good, that is yet to be seen, those guys are gonna be pretty good IMO.
Also we're still a few years away from a good running game. The right side of the line isn't very good, Jamal is on his last leg, why not at least keep K2 this season and help build Quinns confidence. Nothing they did this season bolstered our running game so why trade K2 because he's a liability in it. On third downs K2 was our best option and Quinn doesn't have that safety valve now.
Thing is if we traded Winslow for a better running game why didn't we draft a RB or RT capable of doing something instead of two WR's. McCoy was there, Greene was there. Now maybe they think Davis is just as good, that is yet to be seen, those guys are gonna be pretty good IMO.
Also we're still a few years away from a good running game. The right side of the line isn't very good, Jamal is on his last leg, why not at least keep K2 this season and help build Quinns confidence. Nothing they did this season bolstered our running game so why trade K2 because he's a liability in it. On third downs K2 was our best option and Quinn doesn't have that safety valve now.
I would argue that the Browns are weeks away from a good running game, if not days... but certainly not years. Nobody is "years" away from a good running game. If they are, they need a new coach.
Winslow actually hurt the running game, particularly in this division. So the running game got better simply by virtue of his no longer being on the field. The best way to attack a 3-4 defense is with two tight ends. You have to expand the edges, and slow down the upfield movement of the linebackers and create space. You can't do that if your #1 tight end can't block... or blocks like a wide receiver.
Now, if you're in the NFC South, or the AFC South where your big division games are against 4-3 speed defenses, then a hybrid TE is a huge advantage. But the Browns have 8 3-4 teams on their schedule, including the Steelers and Ravens twice. You've got to develop the team to compete against that 3-4 look.
So you have doubts that this offensive line can create seams in the running game. Remember offensive lines get better by running the ball, not the other way around. The key is, they've got to string some drives together. They have to convert some 3rd downs. And don't take that as an argument for K2 still being here... moving the chains is not what makes Kellen Winslow a special tight end. And although they have 5 of last year's top 8 run defenses on their schedule, they won't face a defense like the Vikings every week.
You have to bear with the fact that this is a completely different offensive system. It's one which favors stouter, stronger TE's (in New England: Watson, Thomas, Graham before that). You'll see a lot more guys in the 6'2" - 6'3" range, around 260 lbs. vs. the more angular 6'5" 240 pounders. They're basically glorified tackles... and probably why you're seeing a lot more of Royal and Heiden rather than Rucker. The "safety valve" in the offense is primarily the up back. That job is presumably Jerome Harrison's to lose, if he can get healthy.
The offense is generally vertical only on the outside. It plays with crosses, arrows, and trap routes in the middle of the field. (Trap routes are those where you send one receiver over and one under a single zone defender). It doesn't take a great deal of speed to operate that kind of route combination. As a matter of fact it almost works against you. If you're too fast, you end up deliberately throttling down tipping the route. It tells the safety where you're trying to set up. If you have a roly-poly tight end busting his hump to get over a linebacker, the Safety can't really tell if he's trying to get to the corner, hitching up, or if he's just hitting the seam. He has to kind of wait him out before he can close on the route. Not to mention, while he's lugging his 4.95 forty up the field the vertical receivers on the outside are pressing the safeties into deeper and deeper positions. That's why you see Ben Watson roaming seemingly all by himself through secondaries. It's a function of the run game holding the linebackers nearer the line of scrimmage, and the vertical routes on the outside, stretching the distance between the linebackers and safeties. It's particularly effective against zone-blitz schemes where linemen and backers are pressed into coverages generally reserved for safeties, or at least those more fleet of foot. This is why, over the years, the Patriots, and even the Jets a couple of years ago, have given the Steelers such problems.
You probably didn't ask for all that. But, I just wanted to kind of give you a feel for that offense. It's not as easy as saying "Winslow did X last year". It's a completely different offensive philosophy. And Winslow didn't fit. Winslow's a cover 2 killer and a monster against man coverage. Because linebackers can't run with him and corners and safeties aren't physical enough. And he's going to see that week in and week out in the NFC South. To me, that trade looks like a win-win.
-jj
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Jason, did you apply when they fired Romeo last year?
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Lets blame trading Winslow on Quinn's poor performance. Man you Quinn Fags just are wierd.
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Lets blame trading Winslow on Quinn's poor performance. Man you Quinn Fags just are wierd.
Lets blame trading Winslow on Quinn's poor performance. Man you Quinn Fags just are wierd.
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Thing is if we traded Winslow for a better running game why didn't we draft a RB or RT capable of doing something instead of two WR's. McCoy was there, Greene was there. Now maybe they think Davis is just as good, that is yet to be seen, those guys are gonna be pretty good IMO.
Also we're still a few years away from a good running game. The right side of the line isn't very good, Jamal is on his last leg, why not at least keep K2 this season and help build Quinns confidence. Nothing they did this season bolstered our running game so why trade K2 because he's a liability in it. On third downs K2 was our best option and Quinn doesn't have that safety valve now.
I would argue that the Browns are weeks away from a good running game, if not days... but certainly not years. Nobody is "years" away from a good running game. If they are, they need a new coach.
Winslow actually hurt the running game, particularly in this division. So the running game got better simply by virtue of his no longer being on the field. The best way to attack a 3-4 defense is with two tight ends. You have to expand the edges, and slow down the upfield movement of the linebackers and create space. You can't do that if your #1 tight end can't block... or blocks like a wide receiver.
Now, if you're in the NFC South, or the AFC South where your big division games are against 4-3 speed defenses, then a hybrid TE is a huge advantage. But the Browns have 8 3-4 teams on their schedule, including the Steelers and Ravens twice. You've got to develop the team to compete against that 3-4 look.
So you have doubts that this offensive line can create seams in the running game. Remember offensive lines get better by running the ball, not the other way around. The key is, they've got to string some drives together. They have to convert some 3rd downs. And don't take that as an argument for K2 still being here... moving the chains is not what makes Kellen Winslow a special tight end. And although they have 5 of last year's top 8 run defenses on their schedule, they won't face a defense like the Vikings every week.
You have to bear with the fact that this is a completely different offensive system. It's one which favors stouter, stronger TE's (in New England: Watson, Thomas, Graham before that). You'll see a lot more guys in the 6'2" - 6'3" range, around 260 lbs. vs. the more angular 6'5" 240 pounders. They're basically glorified tackles... and probably why you're seeing a lot more of Royal and Heiden rather than Rucker. The "safety valve" in the offense is primarily the up back. That job is presumably Jerome Harrison's to lose, if he can get healthy.
The offense is generally vertical only on the outside. It plays with crosses, arrows, and trap routes in the middle of the field. (Trap routes are those where you send one receiver over and one under a single zone defender). It doesn't take a great deal of speed to operate that kind of route combination. As a matter of fact it almost works against you. If you're too fast, you end up deliberately throttling down tipping the route. It tells the safety where you're trying to set up. If you have a roly-poly tight end busting his hump to get over a linebacker, the Safety can't really tell if he's trying to get to the corner, hitching up, or if he's just hitting the seam. He has to kind of wait him out before he can close on the route. Not to mention, while he's lugging his 4.95 forty up the field the vertical receivers on the outside are pressing the safeties into deeper and deeper positions. That's why you see Ben Watson roaming seemingly all by himself through secondaries. It's a function of the run game holding the linebackers nearer the line of scrimmage, and the vertical routes on the outside, stretching the distance between the linebackers and safeties. It's particularly effective against zone-blitz schemes where linemen and backers are pressed into coverages generally reserved for safeties, or at least those more fleet of foot. This is why, over the years, the Patriots, and even the Jets a couple of years ago, have given the Steelers such problems.
You probably didn't ask for all that. But, I just wanted to kind of give you a feel for that offense. It's not as easy as saying "Winslow did X last year". It's a completely different offensive philosophy. And Winslow didn't fit. Winslow's a cover 2 killer and a monster against man coverage. Because linebackers can't run with him and corners and safeties aren't physical enough. And he's going to see that week in and week out in the NFC South. To me, that trade looks like a win-win.
-jj
I would argue that the Browns are weeks away from a good running game, if not days... but certainly not years. Nobody is "years" away from a good running game. If they are, they need a new coach.
Winslow actually hurt the running game, particularly in this division. So the running game got better simply by virtue of his no longer being on the field. The best way to attack a 3-4 defense is with two tight ends. You have to expand the edges, and slow down the upfield movement of the linebackers and create space. You can't do that if your #1 tight end can't block... or blocks like a wide receiver.
Now, if you're in the NFC South, or the AFC South where your big division games are against 4-3 speed defenses, then a hybrid TE is a huge advantage. But the Browns have 8 3-4 teams on their schedule, including the Steelers and Ravens twice. You've got to develop the team to compete against that 3-4 look.
So you have doubts that this offensive line can create seams in the running game. Remember offensive lines get better by running the ball, not the other way around. The key is, they've got to string some drives together. They have to convert some 3rd downs. And don't take that as an argument for K2 still being here... moving the chains is not what makes Kellen Winslow a special tight end. And although they have 5 of last year's top 8 run defenses on their schedule, they won't face a defense like the Vikings every week.
You have to bear with the fact that this is a completely different offensive system. It's one which favors stouter, stronger TE's (in New England: Watson, Thomas, Graham before that). You'll see a lot more guys in the 6'2" - 6'3" range, around 260 lbs. vs. the more angular 6'5" 240 pounders. They're basically glorified tackles... and probably why you're seeing a lot more of Royal and Heiden rather than Rucker. The "safety valve" in the offense is primarily the up back. That job is presumably Jerome Harrison's to lose, if he can get healthy.
The offense is generally vertical only on the outside. It plays with crosses, arrows, and trap routes in the middle of the field. (Trap routes are those where you send one receiver over and one under a single zone defender). It doesn't take a great deal of speed to operate that kind of route combination. As a matter of fact it almost works against you. If you're too fast, you end up deliberately throttling down tipping the route. It tells the safety where you're trying to set up. If you have a roly-poly tight end busting his hump to get over a linebacker, the Safety can't really tell if he's trying to get to the corner, hitching up, or if he's just hitting the seam. He has to kind of wait him out before he can close on the route. Not to mention, while he's lugging his 4.95 forty up the field the vertical receivers on the outside are pressing the safeties into deeper and deeper positions. That's why you see Ben Watson roaming seemingly all by himself through secondaries. It's a function of the run game holding the linebackers nearer the line of scrimmage, and the vertical routes on the outside, stretching the distance between the linebackers and safeties. It's particularly effective against zone-blitz schemes where linemen and backers are pressed into coverages generally reserved for safeties, or at least those more fleet of foot. This is why, over the years, the Patriots, and even the Jets a couple of years ago, have given the Steelers such problems.
You probably didn't ask for all that. But, I just wanted to kind of give you a feel for that offense. It's not as easy as saying "Winslow did X last year". It's a completely different offensive philosophy. And Winslow didn't fit. Winslow's a cover 2 killer and a monster against man coverage. Because linebackers can't run with him and corners and safeties aren't physical enough. And he's going to see that week in and week out in the NFC South. To me, that trade looks like a win-win.
-jj
It's good to see someone who understands the intricacies of how a football team and its system operate.
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@inspecta said:
Diehard just stay your old crazy ass over in the political forum where you're not a nuisance to anybody but Heck.....What ever you say there rolly polly.
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I think not throwing the ball very well in week one hindered Quinn's development more than K2 not being here.
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Back to the subject at hand: 'Did The Winslow Injury Hurt Anderson's Development?, I think so.'
Yes, I think it did also.
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Zombo said:
In fact, he'd probably be starting against us this week.Zombo
Then we could rest our defensive secondary like the Bronco's are doing this week. Just add additional DE's/OLB's to cover all the underneith stuff.
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Zombo said:
In fact, he'd probably be starting against us this week.Zombo
Then we could rest our defensive secondary like the Bronco's are doing this week. Just add additional DE's/OLB's to cover all the underneith stuff.
Then we could rest our defensive secondary like the Bronco's are doing this week. Just add additional DE's/OLB's to cover all the underneith stuff.
And the Donkey's could take their front 7 off the field if we were starting Long One in the Wrong One and we could watch 4 bronco DB's shutdown our "high powered offense."
How fcuking exciting.
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