The 2023 season film studies. Thread of questions and answers.
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? Thanks for the laugh and knowing I needed it!
While it seems obvious Watson isn't the player he was in Houston - the situation on both edges has to get better or it isn't going to matter who is playing QB. If you see the play Highsmith comes unblocked from the blind side with TJ Watt just as unblocked by Dawand Jones - it almost looked like a perfectly rehearsed strip and fumble recovery for the TD.
As bad as Watson was - even the slightest bit of help upfront might have prevented a 4 point loss.
That's the crazy thing Flugs... the Browns lost by four.
Felt like forty, but it was one drive.
That's the crazy thing Flugs... the Browns lost by four.
Felt like forty, but it was one drive.
I hear ya! If Cleveland's offense kept Pittsburgh's defense from scoring 2 TDs on them - they would have won by 10 points. Philosophically speaking, it sounds outrageous...
This game was a lot like Buffalo losing to the Jets because of all Josh Allen's turnovers on a night backup QB Zach Wilson struggled to move the Jets' offense with any consistency. Buffalo bounced back and won the next week.
In a league where adversity defines teams over a 17 game season - how will THIS team respond?
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I'm still curious about our pass routes. Does Watson actually have anyone he can throw the ball to when he drops back to pass?
I know that at the end of last game he was looking for someone to tackle him...but that's because the Steelers could pin their ears back...and they're good at that...and we've got a rookie RT.
I'm still curious about our pass routes. Does Watson actually have anyone he can throw the ball to when he drops back to pass?
I know that at the end of last game he was looking for someone to tackle him...but that's because the Steelers could pin their ears back...and they're good at that...and we've got a rookie RT.
Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten. The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game. That can work really well when you have an Art Shell at LT and a Gene Upshaw at LG on the blindside of QB. The Browns didn't look like they had an Art Shell on Monday Night so? They might want to have their WRs understanding how to help a QB under duress in the pocket like Houston did when Watson took his team to the playoffs in both of his 1st 2 seasons while also making the Pro Bowl.
What's changed? The guy in charge of the Offense that Paul Depodesta wants in Cleveland. There doesn't seem to be a playbook that includes all of the receiving routes in the passing routes tree. Why would this be important? Timing and chemistry anyone? The Cleveland Browns say "no thanks" while the Pittsburgh Steelers said "many thanks!" When the QB is flushed to his left - a lot of the receiving help was either too deep or too far out of his vision headed toward the hashes on the right side of the field and beyond. Make sense? It shouldn't!
There is no 6'5" Mike Evans in this passing game that was capable of getting a party animal like Johnny Blutarsky-Manziel a Heisman Trophy or making Baker feel like he's finally blessed with the right situation for success. Regardless of where anyone stands, the problems with the offense haven't changed since Haslam arrived. The choice of QBs has only been 50% of the problem. The empowered Management has Paul Depodesta holding the offense hostage to a very obligated HC knowing he was Front Office Depo's guy. So, here we are.
It's sad because our defense also has to hear the old "we just gotta work harder." They're paid extremely well to be professiona1 so how about "We, from the top down, have to start working smarter." Start with a competent plan so our Receivers actually know what is expected of them in every given situation while the QB is on the same page. No evidence.
While this is already getting outdated to the frequency of shot-gun snaps - the old 3 step drop had a route tree of throws to be made within that allotted time of drop back. That's how timing and chemistry is born. It has to be allowed and enabled though. There was also the intermediate stuff from a 5 step drop with applicable pass routes that fit the amount of time of the drop-back so the release takes place on the 5th step plant and fire. Then the 7th drop with our 2 out of shape Offensive Tackles not getting our of their stances on time wouldn't work anyway with our lazy edges. All that said, the shot gun formations are supposed to improve the QB's vision and peripheral vision of the defense and where he anticipates ideal opportunities for the pre-determined routes and/or the possible route adjustments. It just hasn't helped any timing and chemistry thus far. This stuff is in the film rooms of the rest of our opponents. Even worse, the amount of resources and draft picks given up to acquire Watson are currently preventing us from addressing a major weakness at Left Tackle while our RT just got welcomed to the NFL... Gotta get out of your stance on every play in this league...
The more things change - the more they stay the same here. This FO didn't bring us the Pro Bowl/Playoff bound QB Houston had - they're giving you the version this FO envisioned for success. Today, he's more confused just like our Receivers looked... Working harder under those circumstances is like someone with all the wrong mechanics just playing more golf without ever identifying the problem that needs fixing. We're back to the same "gotta work harder" we heard when this team only won 1 out of 32 games. My advice? Send Paul Depodesta packing today. See if Stefanski and Offensive Coaches can resolve this shit without his major interference. Does Haslam have the balls?
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I'm still curious about our pass routes. Does Watson actually have anyone he can throw the ball to when he drops back to pass?
I know that at the end of last game he was looking for someone to tackle him...but that's because the Steelers could pin their ears back...and they're good at that...and we've got a rookie RT.
Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten. The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game. That can work really well when you have an Art Shell at LT and a Gene Upshaw at LG on the blindside of QB. The Browns didn't look like they had an Art Shell on Monday Night so? They might want to have their WRs understanding how to help a QB under duress in the pocket like Houston did when Watson took his team to the playoffs in both of his 1st 2 seasons while also making the Pro Bowl.
What's changed? The guy in charge of the Offense that Paul Depodesta wants in Cleveland. There doesn't seem to be a playbook that includes all of the receiving routes in the passing routes tree. Why would this be important? Timing and chemistry anyone? The Cleveland Browns say "no thanks" while the Pittsburgh Steelers said "many thanks!" When the QB is flushed to his left - a lot of the receiving help was either too deep or too far out of his vision headed toward the hashes on the right side of the field and beyond. Make sense? It shouldn't!
There is no 6'5" Mike Evans in this passing game that was capable of getting a party animal like Johnny Blutarsky-Manziel a Heisman Trophy or making Baker feel like he's finally blessed with the right situation for success. Regardless of where anyone stands, the problems with the offense haven't changed since Haslam arrived. The choice of QBs has only been 50% of the problem. The empowered Management has Paul Depodesta holding the offense hostage to a very obligated HC knowing he was Front Office Depo's guy. So, here we are.
It's sad because our defense also has to hear the old "we just gotta work harder." They're paid extremely well to be professiona1 so how about "We, from the top down, have to start working smarter." Start with a competent plan so our Receivers actually know what is expected of them in every given situation while the QB is on the same page. No evidence.
While this is already getting outdated to the frequency of shot-gun snaps - the old 3 step drop had a route tree of throws to be made within that allotted time of drop back. That's how timing and chemistry is born. It has to be allowed and enabled though. There was also the intermediate stuff from a 5 step drop with applicable pass routes that fit the amount of time of the drop-back so the release takes place on the 5th step plant and fire. Then the 7th drop with our 2 out of shape Offensive Tackles not getting our of their stances on time wouldn't work anyway with our lazy edges. All that said, the shot gun formations are supposed to improve the QB's vision and peripheral vision of the defense and where he anticipates ideal opportunities for the pre-determined routes and/or the possible route adjustments. It just hasn't helped any timing and chemistry thus far. This stuff is in the film rooms of the rest of our opponents. Even worse, the amount of resources and draft picks given up to acquire Watson are currently preventing us from addressing a major weakness at Left Tackle while our RT just got welcomed to the NFL... Gotta get out of your stance on every play in this league...
The more things change - the more they stay the same here. This FO didn't bring us the Pro Bowl/Playoff bound QB Houston had - they're giving you the version this FO envisioned for success. Today, he's more confused just like our Receivers looked... Working harder under those circumstances is like someone with all the wrong mechanics just playing more golf without ever identifying the problem that needs fixing. We're back to the same "gotta work harder" we heard when this team only won 1 out of 32 games. My advice? Send Paul Depodesta packing today. See if Stefanski and Offensive Coaches can resolve this shit without his major interference. Does Haslam have the balls?
Send Paul Depodesta packing today. See if Stefanski and Offensive Coaches can resolve this shit without his major interference. Does Haslam have the balls?
Nothing worse than a questionable baseball guy being a total dufus as a football wannabe guy. Adios Albatross.
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I'm still curious about our pass routes. Does Watson actually have anyone he can throw the ball to when he drops back to pass?
I know that at the end of last game he was looking for someone to tackle him...but that's because the Steelers could pin their ears back...and they're good at that...and we've got a rookie RT.
Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten. The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game. That can work really well when you have an Art Shell at LT and a Gene Upshaw at LG on the blindside of QB. The Browns didn't look like they had an Art Shell on Monday Night so? They might want to have their WRs understanding how to help a QB under duress in the pocket like Houston did when Watson took his team to the playoffs in both of his 1st 2 seasons while also making the Pro Bowl.
What's changed? The guy in charge of the Offense that Paul Depodesta wants in Cleveland. There doesn't seem to be a playbook that includes all of the receiving routes in the passing routes tree. Why would this be important? Timing and chemistry anyone? The Cleveland Browns say "no thanks" while the Pittsburgh Steelers said "many thanks!" When the QB is flushed to his left - a lot of the receiving help was either too deep or too far out of his vision headed toward the hashes on the right side of the field and beyond. Make sense? It shouldn't!
There is no 6'5" Mike Evans in this passing game that was capable of getting a party animal like Johnny Blutarsky-Manziel a Heisman Trophy or making Baker feel like he's finally blessed with the right situation for success. Regardless of where anyone stands, the problems with the offense haven't changed since Haslam arrived. The choice of QBs has only been 50% of the problem. The empowered Management has Paul Depodesta holding the offense hostage to a very obligated HC knowing he was Front Office Depo's guy. So, here we are.
It's sad because our defense also has to hear the old "we just gotta work harder." They're paid extremely well to be professiona1 so how about "We, from the top down, have to start working smarter." Start with a competent plan so our Receivers actually know what is expected of them in every given situation while the QB is on the same page. No evidence.
While this is already getting outdated to the frequency of shot-gun snaps - the old 3 step drop had a route tree of throws to be made within that allotted time of drop back. That's how timing and chemistry is born. It has to be allowed and enabled though. There was also the intermediate stuff from a 5 step drop with applicable pass routes that fit the amount of time of the drop-back so the release takes place on the 5th step plant and fire. Then the 7th drop with our 2 out of shape Offensive Tackles not getting our of their stances on time wouldn't work anyway with our lazy edges. All that said, the shot gun formations are supposed to improve the QB's vision and peripheral vision of the defense and where he anticipates ideal opportunities for the pre-determined routes and/or the possible route adjustments. It just hasn't helped any timing and chemistry thus far. This stuff is in the film rooms of the rest of our opponents. Even worse, the amount of resources and draft picks given up to acquire Watson are currently preventing us from addressing a major weakness at Left Tackle while our RT just got welcomed to the NFL... Gotta get out of your stance on every play in this league...
The more things change - the more they stay the same here. This FO didn't bring us the Pro Bowl/Playoff bound QB Houston had - they're giving you the version this FO envisioned for success. Today, he's more confused just like our Receivers looked... Working harder under those circumstances is like someone with all the wrong mechanics just playing more golf without ever identifying the problem that needs fixing. We're back to the same "gotta work harder" we heard when this team only won 1 out of 32 games. My advice? Send Paul Depodesta packing today. See if Stefanski and Offensive Coaches can resolve this shit without his major interference. Does Haslam have the balls?
Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten. The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game. That can work really well when you have an Art Shell at LT and a Gene Upshaw at LG on the blindside of QB. The Browns didn't look like they had an Art Shell on Monday Night so? They might want to have their WRs understanding how to help a QB under duress in the pocket like Houston did when Watson took his team to the playoffs in both of his 1st 2 seasons while also making the Pro Bowl.
What's changed? The guy in charge of the Offense that Paul Depodesta wants in Cleveland. There doesn't seem to be a playbook that includes all of the receiving routes in the passing routes tree. Why would this be important? Timing and chemistry anyone? The Cleveland Browns say "no thanks" while the Pittsburgh Steelers said "many thanks!" When the QB is flushed to his left - a lot of the receiving help was either too deep or too far out of his vision headed toward the hashes on the right side of the field and beyond. Make sense? It shouldn't!
There is no 6'5" Mike Evans in this passing game that was capable of getting a party animal like Johnny Blutarsky-Manziel a Heisman Trophy or making Baker feel like he's finally blessed with the right situation for success. Regardless of where anyone stands, the problems with the offense haven't changed since Haslam arrived. The choice of QBs has only been 50% of the problem. The empowered Management has Paul Depodesta holding the offense hostage to a very obligated HC knowing he was Front Office Depo's guy. So, here we are.
It's sad because our defense also has to hear the old "we just gotta work harder." They're paid extremely well to be professiona1 so how about "We, from the top down, have to start working smarter." Start with a competent plan so our Receivers actually know what is expected of them in every given situation while the QB is on the same page. No evidence.
While this is already getting outdated to the frequency of shot-gun snaps - the old 3 step drop had a route tree of throws to be made within that allotted time of drop back. That's how timing and chemistry is born. It has to be allowed and enabled though. There was also the intermediate stuff from a 5 step drop with applicable pass routes that fit the amount of time of the drop-back so the release takes place on the 5th step plant and fire. Then the 7th drop with our 2 out of shape Offensive Tackles not getting our of their stances on time wouldn't work anyway with our lazy edges. All that said, the shot gun formations are supposed to improve the QB's vision and peripheral vision of the defense and where he anticipates ideal opportunities for the pre-determined routes and/or the possible route adjustments. It just hasn't helped any timing and chemistry thus far. This stuff is in the film rooms of the rest of our opponents. Even worse, the amount of resources and draft picks given up to acquire Watson are currently preventing us from addressing a major weakness at Left Tackle while our RT just got welcomed to the NFL... Gotta get out of your stance on every play in this league...
The more things change - the more they stay the same here. This FO didn't bring us the Pro Bowl/Playoff bound QB Houston had - they're giving you the version this FO envisioned for success. Today, he's more confused just like our Receivers looked... Working harder under those circumstances is like someone with all the wrong mechanics just playing more golf without ever identifying the problem that needs fixing. We're back to the same "gotta work harder" we heard when this team only won 1 out of 32 games. My advice? Send Paul Depodesta packing today. See if Stefanski and Offensive Coaches can resolve this shit without his major interference. Does Haslam have the balls?
No , Haslam is chicken shit charley
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I'm still curious about our pass routes. Does Watson actually have anyone he can throw the ball to when he drops back to pass?
I know that at the end of last game he was looking for someone to tackle him...but that's because the Steelers could pin their ears back...and they're good at that...and we've got a rookie RT.
Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten. The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game. That can work really well when you have an Art Shell at LT and a Gene Upshaw at LG on the blindside of QB. The Browns didn't look like they had an Art Shell on Monday Night so? They might want to have their WRs understanding how to help a QB under duress in the pocket like Houston did when Watson took his team to the playoffs in both of his 1st 2 seasons while also making the Pro Bowl.
What's changed? The guy in charge of the Offense that Paul Depodesta wants in Cleveland. There doesn't seem to be a playbook that includes all of the receiving routes in the passing routes tree. Why would this be important? Timing and chemistry anyone? The Cleveland Browns say "no thanks" while the Pittsburgh Steelers said "many thanks!" When the QB is flushed to his left - a lot of the receiving help was either too deep or too far out of his vision headed toward the hashes on the right side of the field and beyond. Make sense? It shouldn't!
There is no 6'5" Mike Evans in this passing game that was capable of getting a party animal like Johnny Blutarsky-Manziel a Heisman Trophy or making Baker feel like he's finally blessed with the right situation for success. Regardless of where anyone stands, the problems with the offense haven't changed since Haslam arrived. The choice of QBs has only been 50% of the problem. The empowered Management has Paul Depodesta holding the offense hostage to a very obligated HC knowing he was Front Office Depo's guy. So, here we are.
It's sad because our defense also has to hear the old "we just gotta work harder." They're paid extremely well to be professiona1 so how about "We, from the top down, have to start working smarter." Start with a competent plan so our Receivers actually know what is expected of them in every given situation while the QB is on the same page. No evidence.
While this is already getting outdated to the frequency of shot-gun snaps - the old 3 step drop had a route tree of throws to be made within that allotted time of drop back. That's how timing and chemistry is born. It has to be allowed and enabled though. There was also the intermediate stuff from a 5 step drop with applicable pass routes that fit the amount of time of the drop-back so the release takes place on the 5th step plant and fire. Then the 7th drop with our 2 out of shape Offensive Tackles not getting our of their stances on time wouldn't work anyway with our lazy edges. All that said, the shot gun formations are supposed to improve the QB's vision and peripheral vision of the defense and where he anticipates ideal opportunities for the pre-determined routes and/or the possible route adjustments. It just hasn't helped any timing and chemistry thus far. This stuff is in the film rooms of the rest of our opponents. Even worse, the amount of resources and draft picks given up to acquire Watson are currently preventing us from addressing a major weakness at Left Tackle while our RT just got welcomed to the NFL... Gotta get out of your stance on every play in this league...
The more things change - the more they stay the same here. This FO didn't bring us the Pro Bowl/Playoff bound QB Houston had - they're giving you the version this FO envisioned for success. Today, he's more confused just like our Receivers looked... Working harder under those circumstances is like someone with all the wrong mechanics just playing more golf without ever identifying the problem that needs fixing. We're back to the same "gotta work harder" we heard when this team only won 1 out of 32 games. My advice? Send Paul Depodesta packing today. See if Stefanski and Offensive Coaches can resolve this shit without his major interference. Does Haslam have the balls?
Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten. The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game.
Well, what I said was that DePo said that he wasn't interested in 4 yard runs. He wanted 13 yard passes. Which, I guess is relatively vertacle.
Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten. The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game.
Well, what I said was that DePo said that he wasn't interested in 4 yard runs. He wanted 13 yard passes. Which, I guess is relatively vertacle.
Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.
Well, what I said was that DePo said that he wasn't interested in 4 yard runs. He wanted 13 yard passes. Which, I guess is relatively vertacle.
Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.
Ok, that sounds right. Thanks for clarifying that. I think Front Office DePo wants to be another Al Davis without the ideal pass protection on the edges...
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Well, what I said was that DePo said that he wasn't interested in 4 yard runs. He wanted 13 yard passes. Which, I guess is relatively vertacle.
Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.
Ok, that sounds right. Thanks for clarifying that. I think Front Office DePo wants to be another Al Davis without the ideal pass protection on the edges...
Ok, that sounds right. Thanks for clarifying that. I think Front Office DePo wants to be another Al Davis without the ideal pass protection on the edges...
The aspirations are fine by me so long as you can adapt to the personnel you have and the circumstances.
This was not a chunk yard type game considering their strengths (Outside pass rushers)and our new RT. The gameplan was get downhill and get after the QB.
Likewise, last year we have wind and ice and we are throwing the ball against the Saints.
And countless times throughout the history of this regime…if I’m in dogfight I don’t want my go to guy being Anthony Schwartz or Harrison Bryant. I’d like to see our playcaller bludgeon another team with our playmakers. -
There are 3 main components to the Browns offense and the lack of production.
1- Pass pro on the edges. Like I said, Jed is playing like one of the worst in the NFL. He positive grade count when I finished his snaps was almost 1:4. It's just not sustainable. Dawand had his struggles against Watt, that was a given. But, just like his time at tOSU, he's struggling with twitch off the edge. Guys like Hubbard, Hendrickson, Clowney, Autry... etc etc. Bigger rushers who try to use power won't work. Jed is the opposite, his ability to anchor against a bull rush is piss poor.
2- Route combinations. It's clear the staff watched the Niners - Steelers game week one. But then they basically constructed a passing plan out of it that is almost like watching a local AC/DC cover band. Sure, the music is pretty simple and fun, but it's easy to fuck up trying to imitate the original. There are a few designs I was showing Flugs that San Fran did. Stacking receivers and running a two man game like hitch/po, dig/pivot, seam/follow. Stuff to attack the cover 4 and cover 2 structures by PIT over the middle of the field. Generally routes that also take a touch less time to develop.
The coaching staff elected to target the perimeter instead. Not that it's a bad idea, it isn't. Cover 4 and cover 3 means you can attack corners that are high and off. Cover 2 means you can target those cloud corners read-throw off them. But the down side to throwing outside is it generally requires more time. That's where you want to refer back to #1 - pass pro. Routes to the outside can't be connected on when the QB is getting pushed off platform. This is where the coaches elected to go - to the outside. And it cost this team quite a bit. Because avoiding the middle for the sake of not wanting traffic means your throws have to be on point to the numbers, down field and beyond.
3 - Throw timing, ball placement in correlation to WR routes. I've used the phrase 'bad math' before. Where a QB starts and keeps their eyes in places they have no business being. If I can offer Browns fans any glimmer of hope about Watson, his football I.Q. doesn't appear diminished. Because he regularly started the pre and post snap read with his eyes in the right places. Even that first play, the pick 6, was the right read and throw per the matchup. The sail to Moore that was broken up - same same. The good math is there, step 1 is looking alright. Now steps 2 and 3 need serious refinement, timing and route chemistry. Even the back shoulder and perimeter throws to Coop, that was the coaches trying to go at the Steelers corners just like Purdy and Auiyuk did.
What they called makes sense, to an extent. But like the saying goes, you have to play the game. We didn't execute the pass pro, ball placement was off and routes weren't crisp.
I've been kicking this around, but I can't help but feel this offense is trying to run before it walks. We're trying to get a bit too fancy in the running game, we're trying to push the ball down field in the passing game with rhythm where we aren't ready from a protection and chemistry point yet.
They can get there, but the growing pains are even worse than I expected. There is still a lot that needs to be done. Sadly, we now have to do it with a bottom 5 LT, losing a good RT, and losing the heart and soul of your offense in Chubb. As the saying goes, 'Smooth seas don't make good sailors'.
I have a busy weekend ahead, but I'll do all I can to try and get more of what I'm saying, breakdown wise, on here tonight and tomorrow.
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Edit might turn this into a betting thread too.
Looking at Airforce -6 and NC State -7.5 tonight.
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Our next first-round pick is 2025. Wills' last year under contract is 2024.
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Ok, that sounds right. Thanks for clarifying that. I think Front Office DePo wants to be another Al Davis without the ideal pass protection on the edges...
The aspirations are fine by me so long as you can adapt to the personnel you have and the circumstances.
This was not a chunk yard type game considering their strengths (Outside pass rushers)and our new RT. The gameplan was get downhill and get after the QB.
Likewise, last year we have wind and ice and we are throwing the ball against the Saints.
And countless times throughout the history of this regime…if I’m in dogfight I don’t want my go to guy being Anthony Schwartz or Harrison Bryant. I’d like to see our playcaller bludgeon another team with our playmakers.The aspirations are fine by me so long as you can adapt to the personnel you have and the circumstances.
Agree 100%. Your current personnel dictates what you can do well. Smashing the square peg into the round hole comes out looking shitty. Don Shula is the example. With Larry Csonka, Jim Kick and Mercury Morris he beat you to death with the run. With Dan Marino, Mark Duper and Mark Clayton he passed you into oblivion.
Likewise, last year we have wind and ice and we are throwing the ball against the Saints.The Saints game pissed me off to no end. Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught. The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground. The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
The aspirations are fine by me so long as you can adapt to the personnel you have and the circumstances.
Agree 100%. Your current personnel dictates what you can do well. Smashing the square peg into the round hole comes out looking shitty. Don Shula is the example. With Larry Csonka, Jim Kick and Mercury Morris he beat you to death with the run. With Dan Marino, Mark Duper and Mark Clayton he passed you into oblivion.
Likewise, last year we have wind and ice and we are throwing the ball against the Saints.The Saints game pissed me off to no end. Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught. The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground. The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.
The Saints game pissed me off to no end. Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught. The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground. The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.
Can he relinquish play-calling duties? Some of us were excited for Musgrove (me meh) and let’s get Van Pelt off his @ss give him the reins. Let’s see if Kevin can be a HC. Simplify things. If you can’t do two things why not try just one thing.
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The aspirations are fine by me so long as you can adapt to the personnel you have and the circumstances.
Agree 100%. Your current personnel dictates what you can do well. Smashing the square peg into the round hole comes out looking shitty. Don Shula is the example. With Larry Csonka, Jim Kick and Mercury Morris he beat you to death with the run. With Dan Marino, Mark Duper and Mark Clayton he passed you into oblivion.
Likewise, last year we have wind and ice and we are throwing the ball against the Saints.The Saints game pissed me off to no end. Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught. The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground. The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.
The Saints game pissed me off to no end. Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught. The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground. The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.
Exactly! I remember agreeing whole-heartedly with you on that last year.
Look what happened when we changed who was in charge of the Defense. Needed to happen just like addressing the personnel on the defense to be far more compatible with the situational football necessary. Long story short, it worked...
The ONLY time our OC Alex Van Pelt was given control of the offense - the Browns scored 48 points in a playoff game at Pittsburgh. I'm not saying he is the answer just yet; but he was clearly enough of an upgrade to show me we need something better than who is currently orchestrating the offense today.
It's frustrating watching the incompetence repeat itself. People are now saying "Watson isn't the player he was in Houston." I'm not so sure the aim of that comment is directed at Watson as much as it is toward the Browns Offensive Coaching staff. Rightfully so!
While Pickett was horrible and the browns kept him pressured upfront all night - they at least found 1 vulnerability at the back end they could exploit. It was the post pattern/intermediate slant that only needed 1 missed tackle in our 3rd tier of defense for the 1 shining 7 point moment necessary from their passing game to be enough to help them win. The Browns' passing game never even give us a sniff something like that was possible from them.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten. The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game.
Well, what I said was that DePo said that he wasn't interested in 4 yard runs. He wanted 13 yard passes. Which, I guess is relatively vertacle.
Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.
Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.
I think the best solution for all that unmotivated mystery meat on the edges of Cleveland's pass pro is a blow torch that lights all fannies in need...
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The Saints game pissed me off to no end. Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught. The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground. The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.
Exactly! I remember agreeing whole-heartedly with you on that last year.
Look what happened when we changed who was in charge of the Defense. Needed to happen just like addressing the personnel on the defense to be far more compatible with the situational football necessary. Long story short, it worked...
The ONLY time our OC Alex Van Pelt was given control of the offense - the Browns scored 48 points in a playoff game at Pittsburgh. I'm not saying he is the answer just yet; but he was clearly enough of an upgrade to show me we need something better than who is currently orchestrating the offense today.
It's frustrating watching the incompetence repeat itself. People are now saying "Watson isn't the player he was in Houston." I'm not so sure the aim of that comment is directed at Watson as much as it is toward the Browns Offensive Coaching staff. Rightfully so!
While Pickett was horrible and the browns kept him pressured upfront all night - they at least found 1 vulnerability at the back end they could exploit. It was the post pattern/intermediate slant that only needed 1 missed tackle in our 3rd tier of defense for the 1 shining 7 point moment necessary from their passing game to be enough to help them win. The Browns' passing game never even give us a sniff something like that was possible from them.
Exactly! I remember agreeing whole-heartedly with you on that last year.
Look what happened when we changed who was in charge of the Defense. Needed to happen just like addressing the personnel on the defense to be far more compatible with the situational football necessary. Long story short, it worked...
The ONLY time our OC Alex Van Pelt was given control of the offense - the Browns scored 48 points in a playoff game at Pittsburgh. I'm not saying he is the answer just yet; but he was clearly enough of an upgrade to show me we need something better than who is currently orchestrating the offense today.
It's frustrating watching the incompetence repeat itself. People are now saying "Watson isn't the player he was in Houston." I'm not so sure the aim of that comment is directed at Watson as much as it is toward the Browns Offensive Coaching staff. Rightfully so!
While I would love to see Van Pelt get the OC duties and let Stefanski just be the HC, I don't see it happening. He knows his job is on the line, and I doubt in his mind (or about anyone's mind who finds themselves in that position) that the way to fix that is to do less.
I think some of Watson's issues are an offense that isn't a great fit, but according to many he's missing easy throws and reads that he made with ease in Houston. I think the majority of his problems are psychological. Roethlisberger came back and thrived, probably due to him being a sociopath, but this has gotten into Watson's head so deep. I'm not of the mindset that he was set-up, so this is his doing, but.... this current disaster-in-waiting is also the Browns fault, its not like they didn't know what they were doing, but when the QB they had that was the #1 overall pick turned out to be 'eh', they got desperate.
I think this situation can and will get worse. He can't deal with being the NFL's villain, being hated everywhere isn't something most players can thrive off of.
So why do I think this can and will get worse? Because he hasn't been really booed at home... yet.
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There are 3 main components to the Browns offense and the lack of production.
1- Pass pro on the edges. Like I said, Jed is playing like one of the worst in the NFL. He positive grade count when I finished his snaps was almost 1:4. It's just not sustainable. Dawand had his struggles against Watt, that was a given. But, just like his time at tOSU, he's struggling with twitch off the edge. Guys like Hubbard, Hendrickson, Clowney, Autry... etc etc. Bigger rushers who try to use power won't work. Jed is the opposite, his ability to anchor against a bull rush is piss poor.
2- Route combinations. It's clear the staff watched the Niners - Steelers game week one. But then they basically constructed a passing plan out of it that is almost like watching a local AC/DC cover band. Sure, the music is pretty simple and fun, but it's easy to fuck up trying to imitate the original. There are a few designs I was showing Flugs that San Fran did. Stacking receivers and running a two man game like hitch/po, dig/pivot, seam/follow. Stuff to attack the cover 4 and cover 2 structures by PIT over the middle of the field. Generally routes that also take a touch less time to develop.
The coaching staff elected to target the perimeter instead. Not that it's a bad idea, it isn't. Cover 4 and cover 3 means you can attack corners that are high and off. Cover 2 means you can target those cloud corners read-throw off them. But the down side to throwing outside is it generally requires more time. That's where you want to refer back to #1 - pass pro. Routes to the outside can't be connected on when the QB is getting pushed off platform. This is where the coaches elected to go - to the outside. And it cost this team quite a bit. Because avoiding the middle for the sake of not wanting traffic means your throws have to be on point to the numbers, down field and beyond.
3 - Throw timing, ball placement in correlation to WR routes. I've used the phrase 'bad math' before. Where a QB starts and keeps their eyes in places they have no business being. If I can offer Browns fans any glimmer of hope about Watson, his football I.Q. doesn't appear diminished. Because he regularly started the pre and post snap read with his eyes in the right places. Even that first play, the pick 6, was the right read and throw per the matchup. The sail to Moore that was broken up - same same. The good math is there, step 1 is looking alright. Now steps 2 and 3 need serious refinement, timing and route chemistry. Even the back shoulder and perimeter throws to Coop, that was the coaches trying to go at the Steelers corners just like Purdy and Auiyuk did.
What they called makes sense, to an extent. But like the saying goes, you have to play the game. We didn't execute the pass pro, ball placement was off and routes weren't crisp.
I've been kicking this around, but I can't help but feel this offense is trying to run before it walks. We're trying to get a bit too fancy in the running game, we're trying to push the ball down field in the passing game with rhythm where we aren't ready from a protection and chemistry point yet.
They can get there, but the growing pains are even worse than I expected. There is still a lot that needs to be done. Sadly, we now have to do it with a bottom 5 LT, losing a good RT, and losing the heart and soul of your offense in Chubb. As the saying goes, 'Smooth seas don't make good sailors'.
I have a busy weekend ahead, but I'll do all I can to try and get more of what I'm saying, breakdown wise, on here tonight and tomorrow.
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Edit might turn this into a betting thread too.
Looking at Airforce -6 and NC State -7.5 tonight.
Like I said, Jed is playing like one of the worst in the NFL.
Early on you were a backer of his....back when I was saying that it appeared that he had it written in his contract that he need only play football for three and a half seconds per snap. So, it saddens me that you're now saying that he's playing lousy...because I know that you don't want to have to say that...so he must really be playing badly.
That said, we've got one more draft to come with no 1st round pick....and that's pretty much where starting LT's come from. And if our Tackles are going to continue to struggle (although there's hope that the rookie playing RT can improve during the year) then we quite possibly will have a new GM & HC drafting the new LT.
As some of us have learned over the last 24 years of our reincarnation, you cannot just throw any 5 fat-asses on the OL and be successful. They're not a dime a dozen. They indirectly control how good your millions of dollars 'skill position' players can be. You can't pass without protection and you can't run without holes.
If the Tackle play doesn't improve, this could be another long and painful season. And this week's opponent already has 7 sacks while next week's opponent has 8 right now. I mean, what can ya do? Put a blocking TE on each side of the line to help each Tackle and go empty backfield when you have to pass?
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Like I said, Jed is playing like one of the worst in the NFL.
Early on you were a backer of his....back when I was saying that it appeared that he had it written in his contract that he need only play football for three and a half seconds per snap. So, it saddens me that you're now saying that he's playing lousy...because I know that you don't want to have to say that...so he must really be playing badly.
That said, we've got one more draft to come with no 1st round pick....and that's pretty much where starting LT's come from. And if our Tackles are going to continue to struggle (although there's hope that the rookie playing RT can improve during the year) then we quite possibly will have a new GM & HC drafting the new LT.
As some of us have learned over the last 24 years of our reincarnation, you cannot just throw any 5 fat-asses on the OL and be successful. They're not a dime a dozen. They indirectly control how good your millions of dollars 'skill position' players can be. You can't pass without protection and you can't run without holes.
If the Tackle play doesn't improve, this could be another long and painful season. And this week's opponent already has 7 sacks while next week's opponent has 8 right now. I mean, what can ya do? Put a blocking TE on each side of the line to help each Tackle and go empty backfield when you have to pass?
Early on you were a backer of his....back when I was saying that it appeared that he had it written in his contract that he need only play football for three and a half seconds per snap. So, it saddens me that you're now saying that he's playing lousy...because I know that you don't want to have to say that...so he must really be playing badly.
That said, we've got one more draft to come with no 1st round pick....and that's pretty much where starting LT's come from. And if our Tackles are going to continue to struggle (although there's hope that the rookie playing RT can improve during the year) then we quite possibly will have a new GM & HC drafting the new LT.
As some of us have learned over the last 24 years of our reincarnation, you cannot just throw any 5 fat-asses on the OL and be successful. They're not a dime a dozen. They indirectly control how good your millions of dollars 'skill position' players can be. You can't pass without protection and you can't run without holes.
If the Tackle play doesn't improve, this could be another long and painful season. And this week's opponent already has 7 sacks while next week's opponent has 8 right now. I mean, what can ya do? Put a blocking TE on each side of the line to help each Tackle and go empty backfield when you have to pass?
I'd hardly say I was a Jed 'backer'. I'm realistic about play - his wasn't elite, it wasn't even great to above average... it was average. And the NFL average time on snap to throw is 2.72 seconds, so Wills blocking for 3.5 is overkill. I'm being cheeky and a bit literal, but you get my point.
Either way, I don't *want* to have to say any of the Browns players are doing poorly; We have a bottom 5 LT situation and it's actively hurting this team. Even if Jed was playing average, maybe even slightly above average, that is all our OT situation needs to be and I wouldn't be so critical. But that's the reality of the situation.
It's well known I have a love/hate relationship with PFF, but their line grades are pretty solid. Had to look them up to see if I was the only one giving Jed the bad marks. Turns out, they see it too.
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jedrick-wills/58467
I don't have answers on how we move forward addressing the position short of available free agents or trade.
I've also floated out moving Jed back to the right side, but doing so in-season can also mean absolute disaster. Because we can't just pick up and move Dawand to the left in return.
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Early on you were a backer of his....back when I was saying that it appeared that he had it written in his contract that he need only play football for three and a half seconds per snap. So, it saddens me that you're now saying that he's playing lousy...because I know that you don't want to have to say that...so he must really be playing badly.
That said, we've got one more draft to come with no 1st round pick....and that's pretty much where starting LT's come from. And if our Tackles are going to continue to struggle (although there's hope that the rookie playing RT can improve during the year) then we quite possibly will have a new GM & HC drafting the new LT.
As some of us have learned over the last 24 years of our reincarnation, you cannot just throw any 5 fat-asses on the OL and be successful. They're not a dime a dozen. They indirectly control how good your millions of dollars 'skill position' players can be. You can't pass without protection and you can't run without holes.
If the Tackle play doesn't improve, this could be another long and painful season. And this week's opponent already has 7 sacks while next week's opponent has 8 right now. I mean, what can ya do? Put a blocking TE on each side of the line to help each Tackle and go empty backfield when you have to pass?
I'd hardly say I was a Jed 'backer'. I'm realistic about play - his wasn't elite, it wasn't even great to above average... it was average. And the NFL average time on snap to throw is 2.72 seconds, so Wills blocking for 3.5 is overkill. I'm being cheeky and a bit literal, but you get my point.
Either way, I don't *want* to have to say any of the Browns players are doing poorly; We have a bottom 5 LT situation and it's actively hurting this team. Even if Jed was playing average, maybe even slightly above average, that is all our OT situation needs to be and I wouldn't be so critical. But that's the reality of the situation.
It's well known I have a love/hate relationship with PFF, but their line grades are pretty solid. Had to look them up to see if I was the only one giving Jed the bad marks. Turns out, they see it too.
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jedrick-wills/58467
I don't have answers on how we move forward addressing the position short of available free agents or trade.
I've also floated out moving Jed back to the right side, but doing so in-season can also mean absolute disaster. Because we can't just pick up and move Dawand to the left in return.
I'd hardly say I was a Jed 'backer'. I'm realistic about play - his wasn't elite, it wasn't even great to above average... it was average. And the NFL average time on snap to throw is 2.72 seconds, so Wills blocking for 3.5 is overkill. I'm being cheeky and a bit literal, but you get my point
Thank you.
The "Jed only blocks for 3.5 seconds" Orion posts always made me chuckle. I always wondered how long he thought pass plays took to develop. ?
But we get your point, Orion. He needs replaced.
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I'd hardly say I was a Jed 'backer'. I'm realistic about play - his wasn't elite, it wasn't even great to above average... it was average. And the NFL average time on snap to throw is 2.72 seconds, so Wills blocking for 3.5 is overkill. I'm being cheeky and a bit literal, but you get my point
Thank you.
The "Jed only blocks for 3.5 seconds" Orion posts always made me chuckle. I always wondered how long he thought pass plays took to develop. ?
But we get your point, Orion. He needs replaced.
The "Jed only blocks for 3.5 seconds" Orion posts always made me chuckle. I always wondered how long he thought pass plays took to develop. ?
But we get your point, Orion. He needs replaced.
God forbid the QB moves around in the backfield to buy more time. According to Jed's contract, the QB is on his own at that point.
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The "Jed only blocks for 3.5 seconds" Orion posts always made me chuckle. I always wondered how long he thought pass plays took to develop. ?
But we get your point, Orion. He needs replaced.
God forbid the QB moves around in the backfield to buy more time. According to Jed's contract, the QB is on his own at that point.
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Dagger.
I asked for efficiency, I got it.
Asked for a slow build to chemistry, I got it.
Watsons ball placement slowly rounding back into form.
27/33 289 8.8 2 0 3-26 123.4. All of that vs a quality defense.
Eyes starting in the right places.
Aggressive call late to Coop to bury TEN, showing trust in your QB to deliver late.
Every thing I asked for today, I saw.
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