How long does the new regime have?
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If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
There were more Jets fan happy that he got fired. As much as i try to stay positive about the Mangini hire, i refuse to drink the kool-aid.
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screw the record, just beat the damn steelers
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If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
There were more Jets fan happy that he got fired. As much as i try to stay positive about the Mangini hire, i refuse to drink the kool-aid.
There were more Jets fan happy that he got fired. As much as i try to stay positive about the Mangini hire, i refuse to drink the kool-aid.
That's only because they were 8-3 before Favre imploded with the torn bicep.... and he is so arrogant the thought he could play effectively through that.. I doubt he told mangini the extent of that injury. Favres streak of starts would have ended...but the Jets would have been in the Playoffs and the Jets fans would be happy, Mangini would still be there. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
I agree the browns have to give Mangini his due time here to try and build this team. But if the browns do not have at least a .500 record in year 3 and 4 under mangini he has to go. I cant see sticking with someone 10 years whos not getting the job done.
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@junkyard-dawg said:
Where to begin.....Not benching Brady Queen now that he's shown he isn't any good...
Trading Winslow for a WR to sit on the bench while bringing a revolving door of scrubs at T.E....
Cutting Ivy for DeAngelo whatshisname then cutting him 3 days later....
Not resigning Pool instead trading for Elam...
Throwing a rookie Center to the wolves right out the gate....
Jon Runyan and Mark Tauscher were both sitting at home. We bring in Porkshits Womack and St. Clair both of which are trash. He can see they're no good, we all can. Yet they remain.
Not replacing Jamal Lewis....
Not resigning Andra Davis instead bringing in his guys who aren't as good....
Trading for Rattliff? Please....
He's traded and signed depth, depth, depth. What is it like 23-26 new players on the roster? 20 of which being average instead of say 10-15 average depth players and 5-10 guys who can come in and upgrade some spots. The guy cut the only real threat EITHER QB had left to throw to(Winslow) to make his statement meanwhile we gotta wait a few years for Robo and NoMass to learn the NFL style and become decent WR's. Cool if you're working on a 4 year plan but how abouts turning things around a bit sooner? The 4 and out plan is getting old.
How has Quinn showed he is no good?
Winslow was being traded for a very good reason. Can't you figure it out?
Cutting Ivy...........who cares
Mack should learn and he can only do that by playing
Pool sucks
Neither of those guys were answers either
Barton is better than Andra in this system(better than overrated Jackson)
Ratliff was a throw in
Talk about whiney.............
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@.mz said:
Explain. It still makes zero sense to me.No future man. It is like a low grade mattress. It may feel good now, but hurts in a couple of years.
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@.mz said:
That's not an explanation. That's an opinion.Now explain to me exactly why trading Winslow and subsequently neglecting the TE position (which would seem vital for our young QB...Winslow was a guy who seemed to have rapport with said QB already, last season) makes sense.
The explanation is in the wording. Kellen is a old 27 and he doesn't have the same ability than he did before the injuries. He may be able to put up another year or two of "serviceable" play, but Mankok sold high. If the Browns were close to winning it all, I would be mad, but we aren't so we do what is best for the 10's.
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@.mz said:
Perhaps he doesn't have the same ability he had when we drafted him, but he's still a top-5 pass-catching TE in the NFL.This was from Sunday. Is that "serviceable?"
Yeah. A young QB couldn't use a weapon like this. Who cares if he won't play until he's 40. You like David Veikune that much??? Probably. I guess I'm supposed to infer in your "wording" that you approve of what Mankok did with the riches TB gave us for Kellen?
You said it right there.....pass catching.
Everything this new staff had demonstrated so far is pass catching TE's isn't what they want. Blocking is the premium they seek...or at least a balance between the two....as well as KW could catch, he was equally inept as a blocker.
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How long do you think Mangini and Kokonis have to make progress? For example, what if this team goes 2-14 this year and 4-12 next year?
IMO, they may have only 2yrs max to show progress, esp. if none of the higher draft picks appear to be breaking out. There was significant excitement when Savage was brought in (finally, a guy who can evaluate talent!), and there was still strong support for him a year later when he was almost fired (which, in retrospect, would've been better for the franchise). However, the support isn't deep for the new regime due to the coach being hired before the GM, and general dislike of Mangini. This is going to create pressure on Lerner to make a move sooner rather than later if things don't improve. These guys have to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure.
I know it's early and I hope it doesn't come down to this, but for some reason it's rattling around my head as a distinct possibility.
How long do you think Mangini and Kokonis have to make progress? For example, what if this team goes 2-14 this year and 4-12 next year?
IMO, they may have only 2yrs max to show progress, esp. if none of the higher draft picks appear to be breaking out. There was significant excitement when Savage was brought in (finally, a guy who can evaluate talent!), and there was still strong support for him a year later when he was almost fired (which, in retrospect, would've been better for the franchise). However, the support isn't deep for the new regime due to the coach being hired before the GM, and general dislike of Mangini. This is going to create pressure on Lerner to make a move sooner rather than later if things don't improve. These guys have to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure.
I know it's early and I hope it doesn't come down to this, but for some reason it's rattling around my head as a distinct possibility.
Progress according to whom? The fans?
I think as long as fans are showing up and they can demonstrate an increase in talent on the team (that may or may not mean a lot of wins), they will get at least 3 years....especially since they are in effect starting from below scratch with the amount of picks an salary cap Savage used up before they got here.
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I can't get too upset about Winslow, not only because he's an old 27 and this team is years away from competing, but also because generally your highest-paid players are your leaders and the face of your franchise. You want those guys being your core players. I think one of the Browns problems is that they've had too much of their cap tied up by talented but overpaid and immature meatballs. Winslow wasn't going to be happy until he got his new deal.
This team needs to start developing a future core. The team stinks now, so adding or keeping a player or two who make the team better now is a waste of time. Of course, the key thing is that when you unload cap space, you need to use that space to add players who are going to be part of that core... it remains to be seen if that will happen. So far it hasn't been encouraging...
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Gotta love the "this is going to take some time" mentality.
That's the excuse of a loser, plain and simple.
-To hell with the Eagles and the Steelers- -
Gotta love the "this is going to take some time" mentality.
That's the excuse of a loser, plain and simple.
Gotta love the "this is going to take some time" mentality.
That's the excuse of a loser, plain and simple.
How about "this is in progress and we need to see how it is going to play out"? Look I have nothing really invested in this team, my fiancee is a fan, so I keep up to date here so I can keep her up to date on game day. What I do know though is that coaching changes aren't like changing players. It takes time to observe, identify, and make conclusions on the overall changes to the team, both to the scheme and from a basic team mentality standpoint. If you change coaches every year or two, you probably won't find out which one is any good until he is already working for another franchise. Also if other coaches see you going through guys before they really get a chance to show what they can do, do you think quality guys will be lining up to replace them? Fire Mangini after one year, and I bet Shanahan, Cowher, or any other of the "quality" coaches wouldn't touch your FO with a ten foot pole.
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Gotta love the "this is going to take some time" mentality.
That's the excuse of a loser, plain and simple.
Gotta love the "this is going to take some time" mentality.
That's the excuse of a loser, plain and simple.
Like it or not, excuse or not, it is what it is.
Tell me, how are we going to win right now?? I am all for it.
Please explain how we do that??
I know a guy who is a saint and browns fan....nice guy
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@.mz said:
Perhaps he doesn't have the same ability he had when we drafted him, but he's still a top-5 pass-catching TE in the NFL.This was from Sunday. Is that "serviceable?"
Yeah. A young QB couldn't use a weapon like this. Who cares if he won't play until he's 40. You like David Veikune that much??? Probably. I guess I'm supposed to infer in your "wording" that you approve of what Mankok did with the riches TB gave us for Kellen?
You said it right there.....pass catching.
Everything this new staff had demonstrated so far is pass catching TE's isn't what they want. Blocking is the premium they seek...or at least a balance between the two....as well as KW could catch, he was equally inept as a blocker.
True statement about the blocking, but did you see that catch? He made WrongWich look good, and that can be very hard to do.
You said it right there.....pass catching.
Everything this new staff had demonstrated so far is pass catching TE's isn't what they want. Blocking is the premium they seek...or at least a balance between the two....as well as KW could catch, he was equally inept as a blocker.
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@.mz said:
That's not an explanation. That's an opinion.Now explain to me exactly why trading Winslow and subsequently neglecting the TE position (which would seem vital for our young QB...Winslow was a guy who seemed to have rapport with said QB already, last season) makes sense.
The explanation is in the wording. Kellen is a old 27 and he doesn't have the same ability than he did before the injuries. He may be able to put up another year or two of "serviceable" play, but Mankok sold high. If the Browns were close to winning it all, I would be mad, but we aren't so we do what is best for the 10's.
I think you nailed it. Like it or not Mangini seems to be making moves that will pay off more so in Year 3 on the job rather than this year.
So far he seems committed to taking his lumps this year.
The explanation is in the wording. Kellen is a old 27 and he doesn't have the same ability than he did before the injuries. He may be able to put up another year or two of "serviceable" play, but Mankok sold high. If the Browns were close to winning it all, I would be mad, but we aren't so we do what is best for the 10's.
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Gotta love the "this is going to take some time" mentality.
That's the excuse of a loser, plain and simple.
How about "this is in progress and we need to see how it is going to play out"? Look I have nothing really invested in this team, my fiancee is a fan, so I keep up to date here so I can keep her up to date on game day. What I do know though is that coaching changes aren't like changing players. It takes time to observe, identify, and make conclusions on the overall changes to the team, both to the scheme and from a basic team mentality standpoint. If you change coaches every year or two, you probably won't find out which one is any good until he is already working for another franchise. Also if other coaches see you going through guys before they really get a chance to show what they can do, do you think quality guys will be lining up to replace them? Fire Mangini after one year, and I bet Shanahan, Cowher, or any other of the "quality" coaches wouldn't touch your FO with a ten foot pole.
How about "this is in progress and we need to see how it is going to play out"? Look I have nothing really invested in this team, my fiancee is a fan, so I keep up to date here so I can keep her up to date on game day. What I do know though is that coaching changes aren't like changing players. It takes time to observe, identify, and make conclusions on the overall changes to the team, both to the scheme and from a basic team mentality standpoint.
Sean Payton, Mike Smith, John Harbaugh, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano, and Mike Singletary will certainly disagree with that. (and don't give me anything about Singletary being there to begin with. He's got that offense scoring with authority on the ground.)
If you change coaches every year or two, you probably won't find out which one is any good until he is already working for another franchise.
I wouldn't fire a coach if I saw some progress right out the gates. But we're still seeing D softer than a pillow and offense that has some kind of endzonephobia. These appear to be the exact same problems we had under RAC.
Also if other coaches see you going through guys before they really get a chance to show what they can do, do you think quality guys will be lining up to replace them? Fire Mangini after one year, and I bet Shanahan, Cowher, or any other of the "quality" coaches wouldn't touch your FO with a ten foot pole.
Good. I don't want any of them. Stop living off the past already. Those coaches have left their former glory (maybe with the exception of Cowher) with their former team.
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How about "this is in progress and we need to see how it is going to play out"? Look I have nothing really invested in this team, my fiancee is a fan, so I keep up to date here so I can keep her up to date on game day. What I do know though is that coaching changes aren't like changing players. It takes time to observe, identify, and make conclusions on the overall changes to the team, both to the scheme and from a basic team mentality standpoint.
Sean Payton, Mike Smith, John Harbaugh, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano, and Mike Singletary will certainly disagree with that. (and don't give me anything about Singletary being there to begin with. He's got that offense scoring with authority on the ground.)
If you change coaches every year or two, you probably won't find out which one is any good until he is already working for another franchise.
I wouldn't fire a coach if I saw some progress right out the gates. But we're still seeing D softer than a pillow and offense that has some kind of endzonephobia. These appear to be the exact same problems we had under RAC.
Also if other coaches see you going through guys before they really get a chance to show what they can do, do you think quality guys will be lining up to replace them? Fire Mangini after one year, and I bet Shanahan, Cowher, or any other of the "quality" coaches wouldn't touch your FO with a ten foot pole.
Good. I don't want any of them. Stop living off the past already. Those coaches have left their former glory (maybe with the exception of Cowher) with their former team.
Sean Payton, Mike Smith, John Harbaugh, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano, and Mike Singletary will certainly disagree with that. (and don't give me anything about Singletary being there to begin with. He's got that offense scoring with authority on the ground.)
I wouldn't fire a coach if I saw some progress right out the gates. But we're still seeing D softer than a pillow and offense that has some kind of endzonephobia. These appear to be the exact same problems we had under RAC.
Good. I don't want any of them. Stop living off the past already. Those coaches have left their former glory (maybe with the exception of Cowher) with their former team.
ROLF!! They can disagree all they want, that situation is not here. Deal with that reality.
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Sean Payton, Mike Smith, John Harbaugh, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano, and Mike Singletary will certainly disagree with that. (and don't give me anything about Singletary being there to begin with. He's got that offense scoring with authority on the ground.)
I wouldn't fire a coach if I saw some progress right out the gates. But we're still seeing D softer than a pillow and offense that has some kind of endzonephobia. These appear to be the exact same problems we had under RAC.
Good. I don't want any of them. Stop living off the past already. Those coaches have left their former glory (maybe with the exception of Cowher) with their former team.
ROLF!! They can disagree all they want, that situation is not here. Deal with that reality.
Deal with that reality.
Ironic. I'm saying the same thing as well.
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How about "this is in progress and we need to see how it is going to play out"? Look I have nothing really invested in this team, my fiancee is a fan, so I keep up to date here so I can keep her up to date on game day. What I do know though is that coaching changes aren't like changing players. It takes time to observe, identify, and make conclusions on the overall changes to the team, both to the scheme and from a basic team mentality standpoint.
Sean Payton, Mike Smith, John Harbaugh, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano, and Mike Singletary will certainly disagree with that. (and don't give me anything about Singletary being there to begin with. He's got that offense scoring with authority on the ground.)
If you change coaches every year or two, you probably won't find out which one is any good until he is already working for another franchise.
I wouldn't fire a coach if I saw some progress right out the gates. But we're still seeing D softer than a pillow and offense that has some kind of endzonephobia. These appear to be the exact same problems we had under RAC.
Also if other coaches see you going through guys before they really get a chance to show what they can do, do you think quality guys will be lining up to replace them? Fire Mangini after one year, and I bet Shanahan, Cowher, or any other of the "quality" coaches wouldn't touch your FO with a ten foot pole.
Good. I don't want any of them. Stop living off the past already. Those coaches have left their former glory (maybe with the exception of Cowher) with their former team.
Sean Payton, Mike Smith, John Harbaugh, Rex Ryan, Tony Sparano, and Mike Singletary will certainly disagree with that. (and don't give me anything about Singletary being there to begin with. He's got that offense scoring with authority on the ground.)
All those guys have something in common, a team that went to the playoffs more than 1 time since 2000 with the coach employed before the coach you listed. I am not saying the guys you mentioned aren't good coaches, I think they are for the most part (particularly Payton). They did however have some weapons available to them when they took over. I don't see a single name on that list that was in as bad shape as Mangini. More top 5 picks than winning seasons in the past decade, a raging QB controversy that has been allowed to brew so long it divides the fan base, weak individual units on both sides of the ball, two prima donna recieving threats looking for ways off the team, d-line men punching the QB in the lockerroom. I fail to see how that compares to going to the Ravens who had 1 bad season, but prior to that went 13-3 taking the division, had multiple players with superbowl rings on thier fingers, and were annual playoff contenders. If you want to build a successful organization, that are consistantly in the playoff hunt, with a culture of winning in the locker room, you have a long way to go, and I think it would be silly to just keep desperately grasping at straws year after year instead of having a little patience.
I wouldn't fire a coach if I saw some progress right out the gates. But we're still seeing D softer than a pillow and offense that has some kind of endzonephobia. These appear to be the exact same problems we had under RAC.
If it is the same problem as seen before, maybe it is the personel, not the coaching. Mangini is rapidly moving through personel finding the guys he thinks will fit his system, wait for a few of those to acclimate to a point where they can affect the game and you might see something different. Progress is the key, and I understand that you have had two rough games to get started, but I don't think any definative evaluation can be made off four preseason games and two regular season. I don't think it can even be made off a single full season. Two seasons of absolutely no change, or negative growth might be enough of an indicator. I tend to think though that if there is any kind of positive movement, even just on one side of the ball, not necessarily reflected in the W/L column, you still need to give enough time for the complete plan to take effect before making a final judegement.
Good. I don't want any of them. Stop living off the past already. Those coaches have left their former glory (maybe with the exception of Cowher) with their former team.
Good luck finding your young genius, and I really mean that, I would like to see you guys doing well. The offensive romp three seasons ago was a lot of fun for my Fiancee and me. Just keep in mind the job experience section of a resume is there for a reason.
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