How long does the new regime have?
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Turns out this KyleProBowler is a jackass not just on this board
""True to form, the whine from that bastion of baseball knowledge KlyeProBoller contiunes. Do you read anything other than your ubiquitous whining negative lame postings? If you did do some homework you find just a little bit of the money spent, even though you say the O's spent less for "all out prospects than some teams did on two"...if you can take a minute away from thinking of your next negative whine, read and LEARN something before speaking about something you haven't got a clue about. Just a few of the picks and the rounds they were chosen. ""
Cutting school is not cool, now get to class kid.
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How long do you think Mangini and Kokonis have to make progress? For example, what if this team goes 2-14 this year and 4-12 next year?
IMO, they may have only 2yrs max to show progress, esp. if none of the higher draft picks appear to be breaking out. There was significant excitement when Savage was brought in (finally, a guy who can evaluate talent!), and there was still strong support for him a year later when he was almost fired (which, in retrospect, would've been better for the franchise). However, the support isn't deep for the new regime due to the coach being hired before the GM, and general dislike of Mangini. This is going to create pressure on Lerner to make a move sooner rather than later if things don't improve. These guys have to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure.
I know it's early and I hope it doesn't come down to this, but for some reason it's rattling around my head as a distinct possibility.
I think you just look around the league at how the other franchises handle it. Most coaches seem to get about 2 or 3 seasons to show that everything is going the right direction.
Lerner has his unorthodox moments but he seems middle of the road regarding how much grace his coaches get.
How long do you think Mangini and Kokonis have to make progress? For example, what if this team goes 2-14 this year and 4-12 next year?
IMO, they may have only 2yrs max to show progress, esp. if none of the higher draft picks appear to be breaking out. There was significant excitement when Savage was brought in (finally, a guy who can evaluate talent!), and there was still strong support for him a year later when he was almost fired (which, in retrospect, would've been better for the franchise). However, the support isn't deep for the new regime due to the coach being hired before the GM, and general dislike of Mangini. This is going to create pressure on Lerner to make a move sooner rather than later if things don't improve. These guys have to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure.
I know it's early and I hope it doesn't come down to this, but for some reason it's rattling around my head as a distinct possibility.
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Anything less than 3 isn't a fair look.
Now, in that 3rd year, if we are 1-10, something may be done at that point, though I have never really seen the point of canning a coach mid season...might as well just wait for the season to end.
'Peen - you were one of the guys saying 'win now' - what happened, or were you being sarcastic. Just curious.
Part of me says 'win now' - we have seen other teams recently win and continue to win, but those teams had talent and were just poorly coached. In the Browns case, we have little talent AND we were poorly coached.
I think at the end of year 2 we'll know if this is going anywhere.
'Peen - you were one of the guys saying 'win now' - what happened, or were you being sarcastic. Just curious.
Part of me says 'win now' - we have seen other teams recently win and continue to win, but those teams had talent and were just poorly coached. In the Browns case, we have little talent AND we were poorly coached.
I think at the end of year 2 we'll know if this is going anywhere.
No...I want to win now...always have.
I can go with what you say by the end of year two.....sure...we win 2 this year and 2 the next. no need to go much further, but one has to be realistic, and 3..or at least a portion of that 3rd year is pretty standard as it really takes a 3 year cycle of drafts and FA periods for a coach to get the players he wants. It just can't be done any faster.
So, now that we are on this path, there is no going back so we have to let it play out....like it or not.
The one and done attitude I have really rests more on individual players performance. Players these days receive enough top coaching by the time they are a pro to be able to tell if you have a player or just a guy.
Something as large as a coach, his philosophy, system, and ability to bring in talent takes a little longer than a year or two.....but ok...to compromise, as I said, if at the end of next season we still look like crap and don't look 66% of the way there, I won't cry if we go another direction, but that does mean you start at zero again. No new coach continues to build on what the last coach did unless he is talking over a good team much like what happened to Switzer in Dallas.
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I really agree with you...it's going to have to take something really bad to be in that 3rd year as I originally posted...it is a process that just has to happen and it can't be rushed no matter how much you might want that to happen.
Oh...I see you have 4 posts...welcome to the board.
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I agree about continuous improvement, & 3 years thing, but will add that we MUST be able to gain a homefield edge at CBS. Also, we MUST be able to go at least 3-3 in our division...if you can't beat Pitt, Balt, & Cincy, then how can we expect to win it?
I realize that we are well behind our division rivals at this time, but that gap has got to close fast. It gets real old for me watching my favorite team get beat down by rivals.
Mangini's drafts will obviously be the key. So far, it's shaky, but I'll give him some rope to play with there because it's his first draft here. We need our draft picks to help out, not be inactive or backups.
ps- I also agree with the post about the Browns always finding a way to win a game they aren't supposed to...I'm thinking it's the Ravens game at home after the BYE week.
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Drafts are always key for a coach/GM..the first year doesn't really count with those guys, but by the time we enter the grading period for Mangini, 2-3 of the guys we drafted this year will need to be at least solid pro players contributing to help him keep his job.
Mangini knows this, and why the picks may seem a bit conservative, but in the end, i think he will have those 2-3 players pulling their weight and helping us win.
That is why i don't think there was much of a QB competition. Quinn was going to start all along as Mangini needed to see what BQ could do in games.
Next year has a few good qb prospects. I think we needed to eliminate the doubt on Quinn so we can enter next draft with a clear vision on where we need to go with those picks.
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One of the hard things is evaluating talent when you don't have a good organization. We've all seen "problem" players go to a quality franchise and flourish. I wonder if Ngata, who was known as a guy who took plays off, would have been a good pick for the Browns, or would he be an underachiever (occasional lack of motor was a criticism of him if I recall). With the Ravens, he is pushed by superior defensive players and now is among them. I'm more concerned about whether we're bringing in talent or wasting draft picks, and just as important, are we building that elusive something called a strong organization that can rival the Ravens and Steelers.
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Is the mangini hate more cos we did not take time to evaluate all the other available coaches (Mike shanahan, John Gruden, Steve Spags etc etc) or cos of the two losses ?
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Is the mangini hate more cos we did not take time to evaluate all the other available coaches (Mike shanahan, John Gruden, Steve Spags etc etc) or cos of the two losses ?
Is the mangini hate more cos we did not take time to evaluate all the other available coaches (Mike shanahan, John Gruden, Steve Spags etc etc) or cos of the two losses ?
Yes, I think it's a combination of the following:
a- Lerner picking a coach before a GM, without seemingly giving others much of a chance
b- Belief that we are getting the Jets reject
c- he wasn't popular with at least some of the Jets players and the media, at least after the Jets finished poorly last year
d- Some people think he's a weasel, and this has been resurrected again by the whole flap over the water
I'm not saying I believe all these, it's just what I've heard. I'm very unconvinced about this group myself, but then again I thought Savage was finally going to turn it around... The thing that honestly concerns me most is the last one. I don't want an idiot in there, although it's interesting, because I think Mangini is very pleasant being interviewed. He isn't hostile like Crennel. He doesn't "seem* like a weasel, but then you hear various things and it's hard to tell if this is a guy we can get behind or not.
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If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
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If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
There were more Jets fan happy that he got fired. As much as i try to stay positive about the Mangini hire, i refuse to drink the kool-aid.
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screw the record, just beat the damn steelers
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If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
There were more Jets fan happy that he got fired. As much as i try to stay positive about the Mangini hire, i refuse to drink the kool-aid.
There were more Jets fan happy that he got fired. As much as i try to stay positive about the Mangini hire, i refuse to drink the kool-aid.
That's only because they were 8-3 before Favre imploded with the torn bicep.... and he is so arrogant the thought he could play effectively through that.. I doubt he told mangini the extent of that injury. Favres streak of starts would have ended...but the Jets would have been in the Playoffs and the Jets fans would be happy, Mangini would still be there. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years....
I agree the browns have to give Mangini his due time here to try and build this team. But if the browns do not have at least a .500 record in year 3 and 4 under mangini he has to go. I cant see sticking with someone 10 years whos not getting the job done.
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@junkyard-dawg said:
Where to begin.....Not benching Brady Queen now that he's shown he isn't any good...
Trading Winslow for a WR to sit on the bench while bringing a revolving door of scrubs at T.E....
Cutting Ivy for DeAngelo whatshisname then cutting him 3 days later....
Not resigning Pool instead trading for Elam...
Throwing a rookie Center to the wolves right out the gate....
Jon Runyan and Mark Tauscher were both sitting at home. We bring in Porkshits Womack and St. Clair both of which are trash. He can see they're no good, we all can. Yet they remain.
Not replacing Jamal Lewis....
Not resigning Andra Davis instead bringing in his guys who aren't as good....
Trading for Rattliff? Please....
He's traded and signed depth, depth, depth. What is it like 23-26 new players on the roster? 20 of which being average instead of say 10-15 average depth players and 5-10 guys who can come in and upgrade some spots. The guy cut the only real threat EITHER QB had left to throw to(Winslow) to make his statement meanwhile we gotta wait a few years for Robo and NoMass to learn the NFL style and become decent WR's. Cool if you're working on a 4 year plan but how abouts turning things around a bit sooner? The 4 and out plan is getting old.
How has Quinn showed he is no good?
Winslow was being traded for a very good reason. Can't you figure it out?
Cutting Ivy...........who cares
Mack should learn and he can only do that by playing
Pool sucks
Neither of those guys were answers either
Barton is better than Andra in this system(better than overrated Jackson)
Ratliff was a throw in
Talk about whiney.............
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@.mz said:
Explain. It still makes zero sense to me.No future man. It is like a low grade mattress. It may feel good now, but hurts in a couple of years.
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@.mz said:
That's not an explanation. That's an opinion.Now explain to me exactly why trading Winslow and subsequently neglecting the TE position (which would seem vital for our young QB...Winslow was a guy who seemed to have rapport with said QB already, last season) makes sense.
The explanation is in the wording. Kellen is a old 27 and he doesn't have the same ability than he did before the injuries. He may be able to put up another year or two of "serviceable" play, but Mankok sold high. If the Browns were close to winning it all, I would be mad, but we aren't so we do what is best for the 10's.
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@.mz said:
Perhaps he doesn't have the same ability he had when we drafted him, but he's still a top-5 pass-catching TE in the NFL.This was from Sunday. Is that "serviceable?"
Yeah. A young QB couldn't use a weapon like this. Who cares if he won't play until he's 40. You like David Veikune that much??? Probably. I guess I'm supposed to infer in your "wording" that you approve of what Mankok did with the riches TB gave us for Kellen?
You said it right there.....pass catching.
Everything this new staff had demonstrated so far is pass catching TE's isn't what they want. Blocking is the premium they seek...or at least a balance between the two....as well as KW could catch, he was equally inept as a blocker.
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How long do you think Mangini and Kokonis have to make progress? For example, what if this team goes 2-14 this year and 4-12 next year?
IMO, they may have only 2yrs max to show progress, esp. if none of the higher draft picks appear to be breaking out. There was significant excitement when Savage was brought in (finally, a guy who can evaluate talent!), and there was still strong support for him a year later when he was almost fired (which, in retrospect, would've been better for the franchise). However, the support isn't deep for the new regime due to the coach being hired before the GM, and general dislike of Mangini. This is going to create pressure on Lerner to make a move sooner rather than later if things don't improve. These guys have to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure.
I know it's early and I hope it doesn't come down to this, but for some reason it's rattling around my head as a distinct possibility.
How long do you think Mangini and Kokonis have to make progress? For example, what if this team goes 2-14 this year and 4-12 next year?
IMO, they may have only 2yrs max to show progress, esp. if none of the higher draft picks appear to be breaking out. There was significant excitement when Savage was brought in (finally, a guy who can evaluate talent!), and there was still strong support for him a year later when he was almost fired (which, in retrospect, would've been better for the franchise). However, the support isn't deep for the new regime due to the coach being hired before the GM, and general dislike of Mangini. This is going to create pressure on Lerner to make a move sooner rather than later if things don't improve. These guys have to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure.
I know it's early and I hope it doesn't come down to this, but for some reason it's rattling around my head as a distinct possibility.
Progress according to whom? The fans?
I think as long as fans are showing up and they can demonstrate an increase in talent on the team (that may or may not mean a lot of wins), they will get at least 3 years....especially since they are in effect starting from below scratch with the amount of picks an salary cap Savage used up before they got here.
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