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There's no easy way out

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  • Loooooong time lurker. First time post.

    There is a lot of intelligent speculation, ideas and opinions on this board.

    Where is the TEAM at with progress. That is my ultimate question. Not visually but during practice could they seriously be running so many of these ultra-basic plays?

    The one thing that was discussed between my circle of friends while watching the game were the picks. The two times Edwards went out and was supposed to turn around, the Ravens were right there to intercept BOTH passes. Edwards didn't even turn around. His route running looks sluggish and uninspired.

    Could this be a case of the players doing only what they need to do and get through the game win or loss? Do you think many of the players have already mentally jumped ship and are just going with the flow in hopes of a trade? Is this even a possibility?

  • Good thread.

    Running game. You know what? Its looked to me like we've been running the ball pretty well. We had some early success against both the Vikings and the Ravens. Both are teams known to defend the rush very, very well. I don't have stats to back this up, but the "feeling" was more positive. We've managed to be in 3rd and "managable" a lot this year.

    Passing game. Horrid. Just horrid. Maybe the speed of the NFL game is simply too much for Quinn. I don't think there's any other fault that you could pin on Quinn for his results thus far. Stated another way, its not because he doesn't have the arm, mobility, pedigree, work ethic, etc. If it is indeed Quinn, then it must just be the speed of the game. The other variables (namely receivers) are playing a role here, but who knows the ratio. I guess we'll find out how much of it was Quinn vs the other variables when Mangini names DA as the starter.

    Defense. Was anyone else appalled at the three untouched TD runs we gave up? I can't recall EVER seeing that. I mean 3 literally untouched TD runs. Wow, bad bad. One positive for me, Eric Wright looks pretty legit. McDonald needs more discipline but is certainly an athlete. Perhaps he can be coached up? Wimbley got another sack and it was quite an athletic play. He looks to be working hard.

    hoortaH 1 Reply
  • O osusev

    Dama I never thought that Quinn was not a major prospect coming out of college. I just thought he was a massive beneficiary of the media hype stemming from charlie weis.

    quinn really was not pulled after 2 games but this is his 6th game with basically the exact same trend that he had for the 4 prior to this one.

    I dont agree with how and when he was yanked but honestly it was coming he is not a NFL caliber qb and is more hype than substance and Savage bought it.

    @osusev said:

    this is his 6th game with basically the exact same trend that he had for the 4 prior to this one.

    This is why you're not taken seriously by the majority. That is false. We're not stupid Sev, we know what we saw in his first couple games.

    "I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley
    O 1 Reply
  • A Alo

    When Mangini first got the job, he tried to bring in his OL coach from New York, Bill Callahan, to serve as a mentor and sounding board to Daboll. As a former head coach and offensive coordinator, Callahan would have been ideally suited for that role, as well as taking charge of the crucial task of fixing our o-line.

    Unfortunately, Callahan stayed in New York; it's not clear whether the Jets wouldn't release him from his contract or he just decided he didn't want to come here. And Mangini's second option, Tom Cable, got the "interim" stripped from his job title in Oakland.

    So Mangini ended up going with George Warhop, a guy who was fired by Bill Parcells, demoted by Mike Nolan, and shown the door by Mike Singletary.

    I speculated back in January that Mangini's poor reputation around the league may have hurt his chances of bringing in a well-respected OL coach. Whether that's true or not, I'm beginning to think that the Warhop hire could be having some serious negative effects on the team. As many have noted, it was bizarre how St. Clair didn't get any help while Dumervil was destroying him. It seemed like a rookie mistake that should have been corrected before it was too late to make a difference.

    Because Warhop lacks NFL playcalling experience, it may be difficult for him to properly counsel Daboll. Also, his track record of developing o-linemen isn't very good.

    With the right side needing to be rebuilt and Steinbach a possible cap casualty after this season, I'm worried that our additions, both in the draft and in free agency, will end up resembling Womack & St. Clair. And if that's the case, it won't matter who's our quarterback; we'll continue slouching towards the bottom of the league.

    @alo said:

    I speculated back in January that Mangini's poor reputation around the league may have hurt his chances of bringing in a well-respected OL coach. Whether that's true or not, I'm beginning to think that the Warhop hire could be having some serious negative effects on the team. As many have noted, it was bizarre how St. Clair didn't get any help while Dumervil was destroying him. It seemed like a rookie mistake that should have been corrected before it was too late to make a difference.

    This game is often more about the asst coaches and coordinators than the HC. If what you say above is the case, I am more convinced than ever to shitcan Mangini. I know, I am losing it and now is not the time to fire him. BS - kick him to the curb.

    "I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley
  • V Vegasdogg

    @osusev said:

    this is his 6th game with basically the exact same trend that he had for the 4 prior to this one.

    This is why you're not taken seriously by the majority. That is false. We're not stupid Sev, we know what we saw in his first couple games.

    @vegasdogg said:

    This is why you're not taken seriously by the majority. That is false. We're not stupid Sev, we know what we saw in his first couple games.

    really so after the denver game when defenses started playing tight to take away the quick short passes last year extending to the same defensive schemes this year that is false? Really?

    I must have missed these last three games this year where our offense and Quinn played just like he did his last two games last year.... sure those trends must be false... talk about stupidity.

    No I am not taken seriously by the majority because since he was drafted I did not agree with the hype that the majority who wanted quinn to play over anderson.... Sorry I did not follow the lemmings over the cliff.... so I dont care about the majority who own Quinn apparal even though he has never done anything to deserve it in a Browns uniform..

    Its not popular to disagree with the masses but than again I really have not cared what the majority of Browns fans thought anyways. I am my own person who is a Browns fans with my own thoughts. Evidently My unpopular opinions about Brady being hype is true.... How is the film hound, it factor, gym rat, NFL pro ready by Weis, Played in a NFL system in college, Efficient Qb doing..... I am sorry I forgot he is first round talent.... forgive my speculation and wanting to see it on a NFL field first for at least 6-8 games before annointing him anything

  • Sev has not had any cred in awhile as far as I'm concerned, it's a way weird irrational bias the guy has against Queen. That being said, this thread is why Dam and Alo remain two of my favorite posters on the board.

    Great stuff. Daboll just flat out sucks ass, this is beginning to make me yearn for Mo Carthon for god sake. They are not even trying, there is no way Queen can be judged with these handcuffs he's under. Did anybody even run a route past 6 yards while he was in there?

    This is quite possibly worse than the expansion season IMO.

    Is a pig's ass pork?

  • riffer its wierd and irrational to not buy Notre Dame Weis driven media draft hype? Its wierd to like a guy who won 10 games saddled witha terrible defense and a franchise best home record? really?

    sure I must be wierd about 1st round qbs proving it first on the field and wondering if they are going to bust...... Sanchez is doing good so far and Matt Ryan awesome.... But than you Have Quinn, Jamarkis Russell, Leinert, Young.... on the flip side so yes I have had massive speculation problems with first round qbs and want them to prove it on the field FIRST before they get my support as a fan.

  • O osusev

    riffer its wierd and irrational to not buy Notre Dame Weis driven media draft hype? Its wierd to like a guy who won 10 games saddled witha terrible defense and a franchise best home record? really?

    sure I must be wierd about 1st round qbs proving it first on the field and wondering if they are going to bust...... Sanchez is doing good so far and Matt Ryan awesome.... But than you Have Quinn, Jamarkis Russell, Leinert, Young.... on the flip side so yes I have had massive speculation problems with first round qbs and want them to prove it on the field FIRST before they get my support as a fan.

    @osusev said:

    riffer its wierd and irrational to not buy Notre Dame Weis driven media draft hype? Its wierd to like a guy who won 10 games saddled witha terrible defense and a franchise best home record? really?

    sure I must be wierd about 1st round qbs proving it first on the field and wondering if they are going to bust...... Sanchez is doing good so far and Matt Ryan awesome.... But than you Have Quinn, Jamarkis Russell, Leinert, Young.... on the flip side so yes I have had massive speculation problems with first round qbs and want them to prove it on the field FIRST before they get my support as a fan.

    Yeah, like the other day when you were posting like a spaz with caps and shit. Face it my man, you have followed Queenie around rooting against him since day one. I don't even know if you post about anything else do you?

    Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread arguing with your agenda so I will bow out.

    I just don't understand why some of you guys choose to be fans in the first place.

    Is a pig's ass pork?

  • sure riffer you just got your shorts bunched up because all of your Brady backing just blew up in your face. no i just post about brady all day on here.... lol

    Yes suddenly I should not be a fan because I dont like draft hype stemming from Weis... sure that makes me less of a fan lmao... you truly are a piece of work.

  • O osusev

    sure riffer you just got your shorts bunched up because all of your Brady backing just blew up in your face. no i just post about brady all day on here.... lol

    Yes suddenly I should not be a fan because I dont like draft hype stemming from Weis... sure that makes me less of a fan lmao... you truly are a piece of work.

    @osusev said:

    sure riffer you just got your shorts bunched up because all of your Brady backing just blew up in your face.

    As if DA backing didn't blow up in peoples faces yesterday either 🙄

    As I said after week 1 and 2, the problems on O are deeper than the QBs. CLE has 1 legit receiver out on passing plays (BE). No one is getting open (hence Quinn checking down and DA throwing 3 picks). The right side of the line is giving next to no protection. The play calling is predictable and near Mo Carthon levels.

  • Sure DA is crazy at times there is no doubt about it, But like I said before at least he needs to be contained or leashed versus Brady who is like a poodle no one is even worried about.

  • O osusev

    Sure DA is crazy at times there is no doubt about it, But like I said before at least he needs to be contained or leashed versus Brady who is like a poodle no one is even worried about.

    @osusev said:

    Sure DA is crazy at times there is no doubt about it, But like I said before at least he needs to be contained or leashed versus Brady who is like a poodle no one is even worried about.

    It's a guy who is willing to throw caution to the wind (i.e. force plays that result in turn overs) vs. a guy who will not try to force things and won't throw caution to the wind (resulting in check downs, throw aways, and sacks).

    If it was easy or possible to contian or leash DA, don't you think someone would have done that too him since since his Sophmore year in college? DA has how many NFL starts now and he still goes out and throws the ball around like he did in the second half yesterday? Down or not. Trying to make something happen or not. No one watching can put an excuse on the 3 picks DA threw (or the other near 2 picks).

    It has zero to do with containing, leashing, or unleashing at this point. Neither guy can be judged or succeed in the current situation. The talent on the field for the majority of offensive snaps is less than it was last year.

  • Sev's just a zany guy. Cut him some slack.

  • Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

    We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

    Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

    ? 1 Reply

  • Thanks for the compliments, fellas. I like to still talk about the actual football, and not just complain about being a fan of a bad team.

    Because that's what we are. Either realize that and get used to it or quit and I don't want to quit. So, we have to talk about the bad football.

    Back to the thread. Ha. Didn't realize about the thread title until you said that, Leg. Funny stuff. Now I can't stop hearing it.

    Anyway, sev, you are just plain wrong about the ND "hype" machine. 69 TDs and 14 INTs in 2 years. Best player on bad teams for 2 years. Played well in big games (despite the myth) in bad circumstances. Used all his weapons, RB, TE, WR, very well. Those are the facts, no hype involved. Besides, I would argue more people, media and fans, hate ND more than love ND so I think the opposite is more likely true: his ND pedigree was something he had to overcome.

    So what happend to that prospect? Grey has a good theory. Either the game is too fast for him and he can't translate his skills quickly enough -- he wouldn't be the first -- or he's been damaged in his time here.

    I don't think there's enough evidence yet for the former and the latter seems much more likely.

    Which is why I hate what's happening right now. It's bad enough to suffer through this type of rebuilding but it's much, MUCH worse suffering through this for no purpose whatsoever.

    No matter how bad BQ was playing, the only way for him to improve is to keep playing. Sev says he had 6 bad games; okay, let's say that's true, for the purposes of discussion.

    It's SIX bad games. THAT'S IT. Two of them were against legitimate playoff teams (BAL, MIN), and the rest were against teams that are WAY ahead of us in talent. Not to mention the finger thing, the coaching and coordinator change, the QB competition, etc.

    Call them excuses if you want to but they remain FACTS. SIX games with all those other factors at the most difficult position in sports and people are convinced Quinn is the problem?

    How many bad games has DA had? How many bad games did all those "busts" have that sev mentioned? How did JaMarcus look yesterday? What about Edwards? What about Henne? Those guys all busts too?

    The reality is that all young QBs are going to have bad games; that's how they learn how to play the game and the only way to see if they recover from bad games is to let them keep playing.

    We have so many issues on this team that it's really disturbing that Mangini would reopen this can of worms this quickly. Which tells me that it's not about BQ or DA at all. There's something else much bigger wrong here and I'm starting to really fear that Mangini has a bad case of Crennelism (a condition marked by the stubborn insistence that everything's fine and that all it will take for things to improve is for guys to execute the called plays better.)

  • I'm still befuddled that Quinn was pulled because if you look at the 1st half drive charts, the offensive drives were 16, 13, 32 and 9 yards before the time ran out of the half on the last drive. That's only 1 3 and out. Sure I'd love to see longer drives but its not like they didn't move the ball at all. The real problem reveals itself when you look at the Ravens drives: 31, 65 ,92, and 80. If the defense can't get them off the field it doesn't matter if I'm quarterbacking this team.

  • O osusev

    Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

    We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

    Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

    @osusev said:

    Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

    We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

    Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

    2 threats to throw two is always better than 1, no matter what. Doesn't matter if BE is catching now if teams can roll coverage to him all day.

    Hubbard never started a game last year. It was Steptoe, Cribbs, and Winslow splitting out wide last season while Stallworth was out. But again, while no legit #2 WR, there was a TE who made up for that in Winslow.

    CLE can get better, but a QB change is not going to fix or drastically improve the offense right now. Unless the occassional forced play that shouldn't work out but does is considered improvement.

  • Masters is our talent really that different from last year? Taking Winslow out of the offensive equation is large but BE catching balls is just as big of a difference.

    We had Hubbard and some other washout I cant remember playing as our 2 and 3 reciever...

    Either way its only three games in I think we can get better..... or maybe thats just crazy fan based hope

    The receiving corps last year had a TE who was a legit receiving threat. I'd take last year's receiving corps over this year's in a heartbeat, BE's drops and all. Our starting QB last year took that cockpit to the worst passer rating in the NFL. You seem to be making the point that the starting QB this year would struggle, especially facing 2 top caliber playoff quality defenses in the first three weeks.

    You then go on to say "we" can get better, but I guess the "we" is everyone but your favorite foil: Quinn.

    What's your point? Your post seems to be summed up by: "We should give Quinn some leash since the talent around him is the same as last year and we can get better".

    Hrm. I'm confused now.

  • And we really can't overlook or overstate the importance of a TE and a running game (not to mention an actual defense) to a young QB.

    Flacco and Ryan get mentioned a lot, as if they are the norm for young QBs. The reality is that they were in PERFECT situations for a young QB: veteran O-lines, veteran RBs, veteran WRs, veteran TE (in BAL, at least). Not to mention their D's. They just had to help out and learn as they went. They weren't asked to win games, or even really contribute substantively immediately. They got to play and learn and grow and they did so.

    Now notice the young QBs who DIDN'T/DON'T have those luxuries and who are, not coincidentally, struggling. Russell, Edwards, Henne all from the same QB class and all struggled yesterday.

    Anyway, to sev's point, yes, Winslow made a HUGE difference for Quinn. Notice how often Quinn went to him?

    You can say that's a bad thing but you'd be wrong. Quinn ALWAYS used his TE's to great success at ND and he helped two get drafted (Fasano and Carlson, who are still playing in the League, by the way).

    What does it all mean? It means we are a train wreck on offense and expecting any rookie starting QB to do anything but survive in these conditions is silly.

    And if I realize that, why doesn't Mangini?

  • Anyway, to sev's point, yes, Winslow made a HUGE difference for Quinn. Notice how often Quinn went to him?

    Winslow caught more balls thrown by DA than any other receiver. Wasn't just Quinn, Winslow was a playmaker. We're down to just one now. That's significant.

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