The Official Browns at Patriots Game 8 Thread
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We had a guy, that drafted a GREAT No. 1 pick. He was fired, by an incompetent owner, that listens to NON-FOOTBALL people
I’m no Baker Boy, but DAMN, he is better then any person Berry has ever drafted.
Jimmy is a LOSER. And always will be
John Dorsey picked the third best quarterback of the 2018 NFL Draft with that first overall pick.
John Dorsey picked the third best quarterback of the 2018 NFL Draft with that first overall pick.
He is still better than Watson Gabriel or Sanders
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John Dorsey picked the third best quarterback of the 2018 NFL Draft with that first overall pick.
He is still better than Watson Gabriel or Sanders
He is still better than Watson Gabriel or Sanders
In related news, water is wet.
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Let me ask you an honest question. I’m not trying to get your goat.
I had never heard this phrase before and had to look it up.
Bubs, honest questions never vex me.
How many years does Kevin get a pass for “bad roster” until we think it’s more than roster personnel issues? Is it after the Watson contract is off the books?
Great question.
The Watson contract itself is irrelevant, as all dollar amounts are. There's another cost I don't think you're considering here, which is far more important - the lost draft capital. Three straight seasons of a lost 1st round pick. That's three straight years without a needed infusion of young talent to your roster. 3 years can be a blink when things are good, it can be an eternity when it's bad. We experience the latter.
I have to ask a follow up question - how do we feel Kevin has done when we know he's had solid talent? Because a play or two away from an AFC championship game seems to be the high water mark. What happened in those seasons?
2022 - A game away from a wildcard berth. All while being saddled with Jacoby Brissett and a porous defense. That's almost identical to the same results Kyle Shanahan produced here with Brian Hoyer and a porous defense in 2014.
2023 - Your Ultra-paid QB begins turning out to be a bust. Your star RB is lost, and you end up starting a 40 year old Joe Flacco. Now, through both some bold choices and a favorable stretch of schedule, we happen to land a wild-card berth. One we had our asses handed to us in. But a combination of good fortune and decent coaching got us there despite injuries and the elephant in the room (Watson)
2024 - It all comes crashing down with Watson. You end up starting Watson, lose 6 games that were within 1 score, you start DTR for two games, all while the rest of the roster gets older and more hurt.
2025 - What looks to be a fantastic draft. Downside; your starting QB is an over-drafted, slight of build rookie who is beyond a bottom 3 OT situation while your IOL is now even more old and hurt. Your defense is fantastic, but you lack your offenses version of Myles Garrett. I think Judkins is going to be a good running back, possibly bordering on great. But RB's, like QB's, suffer behind bad Oline's. Especially rookies.
So I suppose the new question becomes - has Andrew Berry armed our head coach with enough talent to consistently win against other teams in the NFL that would prove our HC is the talent "bottleneck"...?
If you believe Andrew Berry has been bad at drafting, then it would be a complete contradiction to say that Stef hasn't suffered from a dearth of NFL ability in the locker room.
when I see his coaching tree or peers (KOC , Lafluer, Shanahan, Steichen, etc) maximizing talent with cast offs ,injuries , and just otherwise similar talent , when does Kevin get the piss for wildly underperforming offense? I mean surely, at some point the finger has to point to him right ? By all accounts Gabriel was his guy, and this is awful.
Glad you brought this up.
KOC is a good coach. But let's be real about something - he got a good season out of Sam Darnold, a former first round pick, while having the best pass blocking OL on the planet along with a great trio of receivers, including the best WR on said planet.
Yet, with all that talent, the Vikings were still butchered when it mattered most - by the Rams in the playoffs. We know that Darnold can be a capable QB with a great-to-elite surrounding roster. So we know he is where the talent bottleneck lies.
How has that looked for KOC this season though? He was handed JJ McCarthy and Carson Wentz. His Oline went to shit through injury and the Vikings are getting their doors blown off by better teams. Is that his fault? Or is he trying to work with the ingredients he has? Because the Vikings do suck. Do we know that KOC is an amazing head coach because he got one above average season out of Darnold? Then we point back to the surrounding talent and playoff results. If your rebuttal is that "Well, he beat Stefanksi"... then where down the intersectionality of winning/losing to coaches does our assessment fall?
I recognize KoC as a good HC and I know he's been handed a shitty situation, don't you? If so, why can that same logic not follow for Stefanski? We believe him to be a solid coach, but we invalidate that by not recognizing the bad drafts every other year sans once every 5 seasons.
How often it is that people forget that Shanahan had a losing record 3 of his first 4 years. Once the roster was built up, they had a great 3 year stretch. Then the roster got old, hurt, a few questionable drafts (including their own version of Watson with the Trey Lance deal) now it's a losing season and unless things pick up, they'll having back to back losing seasons.
Kyle Shanahan has as many seasons with a losing record that he does with a winning record. Yet I don't hide my admiration for him as a coach, play designer and play caller. Because he can consistently get good results from an "ok" roster. But that doesn't mean he's having winning seasons with those squads either. He was almost run out of San Fran at one point early in his career.
Lafluer has a losing playoff record, despite walking into, what was one of the easiest divisions in football at the time. There is plenty of talk about him not being the man for the job because he can't get the Packers to win big games in the post-season. Much like with any coach though, it's worth comparing rosters. Matt LaFleur has had some great players in his offense and has some good players now. Does he have elite talent in 2025? No, but that roster isn't wildly deficient at any one group.
That's another point of contention fans need to take into account. Every time this team has had systemic failure, it has been from the front office either not addressing, drafting poorly, or injuries at any one singular position group that drags down the rest of the ship.
There isn't a coach on the list you've provided that hasn't suffered that. Only difference is they've also had seasons with more superior talent as well.
I’ve said multiple times I think Kev is an above average coach. I just think the puzzle pieces are not fitting anymore.
Genuinely no idea what this is supposed to mean. So I'll leave you with a music quote - "I know the pieces fit".
edit: This part isn't directed at you @jrb12711
I've noticed the more I'm getting into publishing more work, the more I found people haven't played beyond maybe rec or youth level. The more I'm also noticing I'm having discussions with people who use a video game (Madden) as their reference point for the game of football.
For anyone reading along who may fall into that category, I'll ask you a question that you only have to answer in your own head.
If you and I were to play a game of Madden (it's been SO damn long, maybe I should?) and you were forced to play as the Browns while I got to pick, let's say, Detroit, Buffalo or New England. Do you think our competition level, the respective strengths of each roster, would they compare favorably to each other? And if not, which roster spots would look wildly different from their counterpart on the opposite team?
Once you've asked yourself that question, about the roster spots, fairness, etc etc... Imagine this - what overcoming that discrepancy must be like for any NFL coach in the real world.
Food for thought.
I had never heard this phrase before and had to look it up.
Bubs, honest questions never vex me.
Aren't you in NC? Get your Goat was something I heard that shit all the time growing up as a kid in the Carolinas.
Responding in no particular order:
1) I get Watson saddled this team down hard, and not unlike Tua in Miami right now you have to play the guy who is earning that level of cheddar. But your points are all circling to my central thought around all this- has Kevin's scheme, offensive philosophy, and talent evaluation (which I'm overtly including the GM, etc in that) run it's course? Has the process gotten stale to the point where even if we had more solid play making, would it show in the record?
2) A la Shanny- I've never been to suggest Kevin deserves a short leash. It's apparent that this squad blows and sucked last year as well. But to your point, there has to at least be something there, IMO, that shows a coach is getting the most out of the roster they do have. I'm not even suggesting that turns into a playoff berth or winning record, but the performance yesterday was ungodly flat. Like, hard to watch flat. Vrabel said it best -when the trick plays ran out, we could stop them. I think Stefanski did an incredible job of this in 2023, but the last two years have been an absolute disaster. Scoring more than 20 points 4 times in the last 25+ games is an absolutely brutal call to this.
So the question becomes at the broad level- is this truly a talent problem, or is Kevin's evolution as an offensive mind running dry? Does, as I've mentioned, need to be recalibrated with a fresh start somewhere else? I want to make it clear that I'm not overtly on one side of the fence or the other (although my feet are probably dangling on the parting of ways).
What I really can't get over in the immediate is that Dillon was his guy. It may end up coming out that the plan all along was to draft him as a high level back-up (Chase Daniels) type, punt this season, and God willing get the dude next year. It would be prudent to do that, candidly, given the Watson contract and draft capital. But when you have a dude out there who is dead last in YPA, air yards per throw, and 2nd to last in QBR (and essentially dead last) in an extended sample size, knowing that's the dude you reached for? Not ideal.
Lastly, funny enough? The Browns in the initial rankings of Madden 25 the Browns were only slightly considered worse than Buffalo (88 to 87), and above both Detroit and New England: https://www.gamesradar.com/games/madden-nfl/madden-25-best-teams/. Makes you think-
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I only watched parts of the first half and around last 5 minutes of the game to watch a turnover turn into negative two points. Of note Shedeur made that play backed up in his end zone in the preseason. Can anyone tell me if Dillon stretched the field at all?
I only watched parts of the first half and around last 5 minutes of the game to watch a turnover turn into negative two points. Of note Shedeur made that play backed up in his end zone in the preseason. Can anyone tell me if Dillon stretched the field at all?
He did. He was late and he under threw Bond early in the game. Ball should have been out sooner and on a line. This showcased the lack of arm talent
Early second half he threw into double coverage (maybe a 50 yard heave) defender made a great catch.
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"During a press conference, Vrabel addressed the game with a focus on the Browns’ offensive decisions. He described the play calling as “questionable,” suggesting that the strategies employed did not effectively utilize the team’s strengths. The bluntness of his critique underscored the frustrations that can arise after a game where the outcome starkly contrasts expectations."
What offensive team strengths does this team have?
What offensive team strengths does this team have?
TBH we have two Pro-bowlers on offense, why aren't plays called for Njoku or Jeudy? I know the latter has had the dropsies but you have to coach him through it. Thrash had an excellent camp but plays are now being called for Isaiah Bond when he clearly isn't ready for the NFL.
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I had never heard this phrase before and had to look it up.
Bubs, honest questions never vex me.
Aren't you in NC? Get your Goat was something I heard that shit all the time growing up as a kid in the Carolinas.
Responding in no particular order:
1) I get Watson saddled this team down hard, and not unlike Tua in Miami right now you have to play the guy who is earning that level of cheddar. But your points are all circling to my central thought around all this- has Kevin's scheme, offensive philosophy, and talent evaluation (which I'm overtly including the GM, etc in that) run it's course? Has the process gotten stale to the point where even if we had more solid play making, would it show in the record?
2) A la Shanny- I've never been to suggest Kevin deserves a short leash. It's apparent that this squad blows and sucked last year as well. But to your point, there has to at least be something there, IMO, that shows a coach is getting the most out of the roster they do have. I'm not even suggesting that turns into a playoff berth or winning record, but the performance yesterday was ungodly flat. Like, hard to watch flat. Vrabel said it best -when the trick plays ran out, we could stop them. I think Stefanski did an incredible job of this in 2023, but the last two years have been an absolute disaster. Scoring more than 20 points 4 times in the last 25+ games is an absolutely brutal call to this.
So the question becomes at the broad level- is this truly a talent problem, or is Kevin's evolution as an offensive mind running dry? Does, as I've mentioned, need to be recalibrated with a fresh start somewhere else? I want to make it clear that I'm not overtly on one side of the fence or the other (although my feet are probably dangling on the parting of ways).
What I really can't get over in the immediate is that Dillon was his guy. It may end up coming out that the plan all along was to draft him as a high level back-up (Chase Daniels) type, punt this season, and God willing get the dude next year. It would be prudent to do that, candidly, given the Watson contract and draft capital. But when you have a dude out there who is dead last in YPA, air yards per throw, and 2nd to last in QBR (and essentially dead last) in an extended sample size, knowing that's the dude you reached for? Not ideal.
Lastly, funny enough? The Browns in the initial rankings of Madden 25 the Browns were only slightly considered worse than Buffalo (88 to 87), and above both Detroit and New England: https://www.gamesradar.com/games/madden-nfl/madden-25-best-teams/. Makes you think-
Aren't you in NC? Get your Goat was something I heard that shit all the time growing up as a kid in the Carolinas.
I'm on the North Coast, my guy. I lived in noVA for a few years though.
1) I get Watson saddled this team down hard, and not unlike Tua in Miami right now you have to play the guy who is earning that level of cheddar. But your points are all circling to my central thought around all this- has Kevin's scheme, offensive philosophy, and talent evaluation (which I'm overtly including the GM, etc in that) run it's course? Has the process gotten stale to the point where even if we had more solid play making, would it show in the record?
Kevin's offensive philosophy isn't all that dissimilar to a lot of what Shanny and KoC do.
- He's a zone blocking disciple
- Effectively run on vertical, iso, duo, and power concepts.
- Generate explosive runs on outside zones and pin & Pull
- Setup the misdirection and vertical passing game off the running game.
These things don't require spectacular players. But they do require a mix of starting and NFL average talent to execute.
Right now we lack either of those for the QB spot and 40% of the OL. That's no small deficiency when you're in a league of the finest football players on earth. If I said 40% of the workforce at, wherever your job is, wasn't up to standard, there would be a company wide issue, no?
2) A la Shanny- I've never been to suggest Kevin deserves a short leash. It's apparent that this squad blows and sucked last year as well. But to your point, there has to at least be something there, IMO, that shows a coach is getting the most out of the roster they do have.
I think seeing this team be competitive against a squad that might win the AFCE for 2.5 quarters, and should have walked into halftime with a lead, sort of speaks to that answer.
The issue is squeezing blood from a rock. The opening and sometimes 2nd drives are solid and demonstrating sound game planning and scouting by the offensive coaching staff. But the adjustments don't just happen at halftime. They happen usually in between drives. Once the Patriots Defense settled in after some well designed plays that put them on their heels, then their talent across the board trumped our ability to execute bread and butter offensive staples.
I know @calfoxwc likes to say dumb shit like "draw up plays to confuse the defense"... Stefanski did early, and it worked. But that isn't something you can do and live by every snap. It isn't realistic. We couldn't win on our weakside iso, we couldn't win on outside zone, and they sat all over high percentage concepts after the 1st qtr. We just don't have the horses to counter adjust. This has been the theme across entire position groups for multiple years - OL, WR's, Dline, LB's...
Like, hard to watch flat. Vrabel said it best -when the trick plays ran out, we could stop them.
Circle back around to my comment above. When you don't have the guys to win their individual assignments, you have to get "gimmicky" and reach deep into the bag. But that is not a stable, consistent offense. Once you put a lid on it, the offensive efficiency has to be leaned on. We can't be efficient for a lack of personnel.
It's a tired record, one I know people don't *WANT* to hear, but it's the truth. The problem is fans somehow expecting the same results week to week with a roster imbalance. What this team can do is incredibly limited to our opponents abilities and roster strength. You can run all over Miami, but you can't against New England. As such, the rest of the machine suffers.
I think Stefanski did an incredible job of this in 2023, but the last two years have been an absolute disaster. Scoring more than 20 points 4 times in the last 25+ games is an absolutely brutal call to this.
So the question becomes at the broad level- is this truly a talent problem, or is Kevin's evolution as an offensive mind running dry? Does, as I've mentioned, need to be recalibrated with a fresh start somewhere else? I want to make it clear that I'm not overtly on one side of the fence or the other (although my feet are probably dangling on the parting of ways).
I think Tommy Rees is something of that "recalibration" I've seen fresh concepts and things brought to this offense. I detailed that in my youtube analysis of Gabriel in the pre-season. But with that, there's only so far that these new installs will take you once they're out there for defenses to dissect and prepare for.
What I really can't get over in the immediate is that Dillon was his guy. It may end up coming out that the plan all along was to draft him as a high level back-up (Chase Daniels) type, punt this season, and God willing get the dude next year. It would be prudent to do that, candidly, given the Watson contract and draft capital. But when you have a dude out there who is dead last in YPA, air yards per throw, and 2nd to last in QBR (and essentially dead last) in an extended sample size, knowing that's the dude you reached for? Not ideal.
Agreed almost entirely. I think Stef goes to bat for his guys and won't throw people under the bus like how Hue or Pat Shurmur would. That's how you lose your locker room. But I'm not sold that Stefanski made Gabriel "his guy". You traditionally have a "coaches pick" every season, and I'm sure Stef has stepped up to claim Gabriel, in a respect. But I don't believe he poured over every single game for 2+ seasons and went "this is our guy either 1a or 2b". And if I'm wrong, then Stef may be a fine coach, but a great evaluator of talent he is not. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't have a coach having his pick once a year if it blows.
My fear was Gabriel was an overreach. By my estimate 2 rounds. That looks more and more the case every week.
Lastly, funny enough? The Browns in the initial rankings of Madden 25 the Browns were only slightly considered worse than Buffalo (88 to 87), and above both Detroit and New England: https://www.gamesradar.com/games/madden-nfl/madden-25-best-teams/. Makes you think-
Paper Tiger. Everyone looks great on X's and O's until the real bullets start flying. I'd be curious what that rating is now. Not that it really means much.
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I like Kevin. We will do worse IMO with a replacement. He will be HC in the league if he’s out of a job.
You can’t win with a limited QB, two twin turnstiles for some of the year and the worst collection of WRs in the NFL. There is no scheme or game plan to work around that.
Having said that. I hated the Ken Dorsey move last year.
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I think the analytics were wrong on Gabriel and the football guys were right. I'm sure he has a high football IQ, but not the physical traits to be an NFL QB at least not enough to overcome his size.
Sanders doesn't have the IQ, and has showed F tier pocket presence in pre season. The season is dead but at least there's next year.
I think it makes sense to give Gabriel the jets and then give sanders some games, evaluate what you got.
I think the analytics were wrong on Gabriel and the football guys were right. I'm sure he has a high football IQ, but not the physical traits to be an NFL QB at least not enough to overcome his size.
Sanders doesn't have the IQ, and has showed F tier pocket presence in pre season. The season is dead but at least there's next year.
I think it makes sense to give Gabriel the jets and then give sanders some games, evaluate what you got.
Gilbert was a Stefanski pick, they were tricked by Fools gold of an Oregon system QB. I read a quote where he said "besides the height what isn't great about this guy?". They apparently disliked Sanders because he took to many sacks but Gabriel has proven to be a disaster. As long time Browns fans we can spot bad QB play from a mile away, this sample size is big enough to move onto Sanders and see if he can offer anything. Sanders played pretty well in the Panthers game, the Rams game was a disaster but he didn't turn the ball over in preseason unlike Gabriel.
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My first video from before the season kicked in.
Some strong foreshadowing.
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My first video from before the season kicked in.
Foreshadowing:
Yep and I stayed to the end. You're welcome. I had no trouble whatsoever following along. I have no idea what cal's problem is following it. And I'm older than he.?
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Yep and I stayed to the end.
Thank you... for your service?
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I think the analytics were wrong on Gabriel and the football guys were right. I'm sure he has a high football IQ, but not the physical traits to be an NFL QB at least not enough to overcome his size.
Sanders doesn't have the IQ, and has showed F tier pocket presence in pre season. The season is dead but at least there's next year.
I think it makes sense to give Gabriel the jets and then give sanders some games, evaluate what you got.
I think the analytics were wrong on Gabriel and the football guys were right. I'm sure he has a high football IQ, but not the physical traits to be an NFL QB at least not enough to overcome his size.
Sanders doesn't have the IQ, and has showed F tier pocket presence in pre season. The season is dead but at least there's next year.
I think it makes sense to give Gabriel the jets and then give sanders some games, evaluate what you got.
I'm not a big Shadeur fan... But at this point.. Anyone with simple observation can see Shrimp boy doesn't have it.. He might be smart , high football IQ.. But physically... He cannot drive the ball or hit the deep out with crisp consistency.. At this point I just want to see if Shadeur can ignite the team at least with a false sense of energy and hope for the offense even if it is temporary... But in reality.. I'm not far off for tanking for Mendoza/Klubnik and the best WR in the draft.. then just taking O lineman with the rest of the pics.. And I'm ready to move on from Kevin.. 6 years is long enough... Both sides need a fresh start... That's just my honest opinion.. Right or wrong..
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Aren't you in NC? Get your Goat was something I heard that shit all the time growing up as a kid in the Carolinas.
I'm on the North Coast, my guy. I lived in noVA for a few years though.
1) I get Watson saddled this team down hard, and not unlike Tua in Miami right now you have to play the guy who is earning that level of cheddar. But your points are all circling to my central thought around all this- has Kevin's scheme, offensive philosophy, and talent evaluation (which I'm overtly including the GM, etc in that) run it's course? Has the process gotten stale to the point where even if we had more solid play making, would it show in the record?
Kevin's offensive philosophy isn't all that dissimilar to a lot of what Shanny and KoC do.
- He's a zone blocking disciple
- Effectively run on vertical, iso, duo, and power concepts.
- Generate explosive runs on outside zones and pin & Pull
- Setup the misdirection and vertical passing game off the running game.
These things don't require spectacular players. But they do require a mix of starting and NFL average talent to execute.
Right now we lack either of those for the QB spot and 40% of the OL. That's no small deficiency when you're in a league of the finest football players on earth. If I said 40% of the workforce at, wherever your job is, wasn't up to standard, there would be a company wide issue, no?
2) A la Shanny- I've never been to suggest Kevin deserves a short leash. It's apparent that this squad blows and sucked last year as well. But to your point, there has to at least be something there, IMO, that shows a coach is getting the most out of the roster they do have.
I think seeing this team be competitive against a squad that might win the AFCE for 2.5 quarters, and should have walked into halftime with a lead, sort of speaks to that answer.
The issue is squeezing blood from a rock. The opening and sometimes 2nd drives are solid and demonstrating sound game planning and scouting by the offensive coaching staff. But the adjustments don't just happen at halftime. They happen usually in between drives. Once the Patriots Defense settled in after some well designed plays that put them on their heels, then their talent across the board trumped our ability to execute bread and butter offensive staples.
I know @calfoxwc likes to say dumb shit like "draw up plays to confuse the defense"... Stefanski did early, and it worked. But that isn't something you can do and live by every snap. It isn't realistic. We couldn't win on our weakside iso, we couldn't win on outside zone, and they sat all over high percentage concepts after the 1st qtr. We just don't have the horses to counter adjust. This has been the theme across entire position groups for multiple years - OL, WR's, Dline, LB's...
Like, hard to watch flat. Vrabel said it best -when the trick plays ran out, we could stop them.
Circle back around to my comment above. When you don't have the guys to win their individual assignments, you have to get "gimmicky" and reach deep into the bag. But that is not a stable, consistent offense. Once you put a lid on it, the offensive efficiency has to be leaned on. We can't be efficient for a lack of personnel.
It's a tired record, one I know people don't *WANT* to hear, but it's the truth. The problem is fans somehow expecting the same results week to week with a roster imbalance. What this team can do is incredibly limited to our opponents abilities and roster strength. You can run all over Miami, but you can't against New England. As such, the rest of the machine suffers.
I think Stefanski did an incredible job of this in 2023, but the last two years have been an absolute disaster. Scoring more than 20 points 4 times in the last 25+ games is an absolutely brutal call to this.
So the question becomes at the broad level- is this truly a talent problem, or is Kevin's evolution as an offensive mind running dry? Does, as I've mentioned, need to be recalibrated with a fresh start somewhere else? I want to make it clear that I'm not overtly on one side of the fence or the other (although my feet are probably dangling on the parting of ways).
I think Tommy Rees is something of that "recalibration" I've seen fresh concepts and things brought to this offense. I detailed that in my youtube analysis of Gabriel in the pre-season. But with that, there's only so far that these new installs will take you once they're out there for defenses to dissect and prepare for.
What I really can't get over in the immediate is that Dillon was his guy. It may end up coming out that the plan all along was to draft him as a high level back-up (Chase Daniels) type, punt this season, and God willing get the dude next year. It would be prudent to do that, candidly, given the Watson contract and draft capital. But when you have a dude out there who is dead last in YPA, air yards per throw, and 2nd to last in QBR (and essentially dead last) in an extended sample size, knowing that's the dude you reached for? Not ideal.
Agreed almost entirely. I think Stef goes to bat for his guys and won't throw people under the bus like how Hue or Pat Shurmur would. That's how you lose your locker room. But I'm not sold that Stefanski made Gabriel "his guy". You traditionally have a "coaches pick" every season, and I'm sure Stef has stepped up to claim Gabriel, in a respect. But I don't believe he poured over every single game for 2+ seasons and went "this is our guy either 1a or 2b". And if I'm wrong, then Stef may be a fine coach, but a great evaluator of talent he is not. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't have a coach having his pick once a year if it blows.
My fear was Gabriel was an overreach. By my estimate 2 rounds. That looks more and more the case every week.
Lastly, funny enough? The Browns in the initial rankings of Madden 25 the Browns were only slightly considered worse than Buffalo (88 to 87), and above both Detroit and New England: https://www.gamesradar.com/games/madden-nfl/madden-25-best-teams/. Makes you think-
Paper Tiger. Everyone looks great on X's and O's until the real bullets start flying. I'd be curious what that rating is now. Not that it really means much.
The issue is squeezing blood from a rock
“I love him. I think he’s a great QB. We can’t ask him to dropback 70-80% of the time because that’s a lot on him. That’s a lot on anyone,” Teller said.
.....Well then Wyatt, you OLinemen have to get guys blocked so we can run the ball. Judkins isn't any wimp runner...and he can't get any yards when given the ball. Giving the RB a ton of carries without getting any production cannot be justified.
We did not match up well with the Patriots. They were strong against the run. Like any other team, they were going to load up against the run and know that they couldn't be beaten by a passing game consisting of a rookie midget QB and Practice Squad receivers.
To expect anything other than what happened offensively against the Patriots is like expecting to squeeze blood from a rock.
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Aren't you in NC? Get your Goat was something I heard that shit all the time growing up as a kid in the Carolinas.
I'm on the North Coast, my guy. I lived in noVA for a few years though.
1) I get Watson saddled this team down hard, and not unlike Tua in Miami right now you have to play the guy who is earning that level of cheddar. But your points are all circling to my central thought around all this- has Kevin's scheme, offensive philosophy, and talent evaluation (which I'm overtly including the GM, etc in that) run it's course? Has the process gotten stale to the point where even if we had more solid play making, would it show in the record?
Kevin's offensive philosophy isn't all that dissimilar to a lot of what Shanny and KoC do.
- He's a zone blocking disciple
- Effectively run on vertical, iso, duo, and power concepts.
- Generate explosive runs on outside zones and pin & Pull
- Setup the misdirection and vertical passing game off the running game.
These things don't require spectacular players. But they do require a mix of starting and NFL average talent to execute.
Right now we lack either of those for the QB spot and 40% of the OL. That's no small deficiency when you're in a league of the finest football players on earth. If I said 40% of the workforce at, wherever your job is, wasn't up to standard, there would be a company wide issue, no?
2) A la Shanny- I've never been to suggest Kevin deserves a short leash. It's apparent that this squad blows and sucked last year as well. But to your point, there has to at least be something there, IMO, that shows a coach is getting the most out of the roster they do have.
I think seeing this team be competitive against a squad that might win the AFCE for 2.5 quarters, and should have walked into halftime with a lead, sort of speaks to that answer.
The issue is squeezing blood from a rock. The opening and sometimes 2nd drives are solid and demonstrating sound game planning and scouting by the offensive coaching staff. But the adjustments don't just happen at halftime. They happen usually in between drives. Once the Patriots Defense settled in after some well designed plays that put them on their heels, then their talent across the board trumped our ability to execute bread and butter offensive staples.
I know @calfoxwc likes to say dumb shit like "draw up plays to confuse the defense"... Stefanski did early, and it worked. But that isn't something you can do and live by every snap. It isn't realistic. We couldn't win on our weakside iso, we couldn't win on outside zone, and they sat all over high percentage concepts after the 1st qtr. We just don't have the horses to counter adjust. This has been the theme across entire position groups for multiple years - OL, WR's, Dline, LB's...
Like, hard to watch flat. Vrabel said it best -when the trick plays ran out, we could stop them.
Circle back around to my comment above. When you don't have the guys to win their individual assignments, you have to get "gimmicky" and reach deep into the bag. But that is not a stable, consistent offense. Once you put a lid on it, the offensive efficiency has to be leaned on. We can't be efficient for a lack of personnel.
It's a tired record, one I know people don't *WANT* to hear, but it's the truth. The problem is fans somehow expecting the same results week to week with a roster imbalance. What this team can do is incredibly limited to our opponents abilities and roster strength. You can run all over Miami, but you can't against New England. As such, the rest of the machine suffers.
I think Stefanski did an incredible job of this in 2023, but the last two years have been an absolute disaster. Scoring more than 20 points 4 times in the last 25+ games is an absolutely brutal call to this.
So the question becomes at the broad level- is this truly a talent problem, or is Kevin's evolution as an offensive mind running dry? Does, as I've mentioned, need to be recalibrated with a fresh start somewhere else? I want to make it clear that I'm not overtly on one side of the fence or the other (although my feet are probably dangling on the parting of ways).
I think Tommy Rees is something of that "recalibration" I've seen fresh concepts and things brought to this offense. I detailed that in my youtube analysis of Gabriel in the pre-season. But with that, there's only so far that these new installs will take you once they're out there for defenses to dissect and prepare for.
What I really can't get over in the immediate is that Dillon was his guy. It may end up coming out that the plan all along was to draft him as a high level back-up (Chase Daniels) type, punt this season, and God willing get the dude next year. It would be prudent to do that, candidly, given the Watson contract and draft capital. But when you have a dude out there who is dead last in YPA, air yards per throw, and 2nd to last in QBR (and essentially dead last) in an extended sample size, knowing that's the dude you reached for? Not ideal.
Agreed almost entirely. I think Stef goes to bat for his guys and won't throw people under the bus like how Hue or Pat Shurmur would. That's how you lose your locker room. But I'm not sold that Stefanski made Gabriel "his guy". You traditionally have a "coaches pick" every season, and I'm sure Stef has stepped up to claim Gabriel, in a respect. But I don't believe he poured over every single game for 2+ seasons and went "this is our guy either 1a or 2b". And if I'm wrong, then Stef may be a fine coach, but a great evaluator of talent he is not. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't have a coach having his pick once a year if it blows.
My fear was Gabriel was an overreach. By my estimate 2 rounds. That looks more and more the case every week.
Lastly, funny enough? The Browns in the initial rankings of Madden 25 the Browns were only slightly considered worse than Buffalo (88 to 87), and above both Detroit and New England: https://www.gamesradar.com/games/madden-nfl/madden-25-best-teams/. Makes you think-
Paper Tiger. Everyone looks great on X's and O's until the real bullets start flying. I'd be curious what that rating is now. Not that it really means much.
I know @calfoxwc likes to say dumb shit like "draw up plays to confuse the defense"... Stefanski did early, and it worked. But that isn't something you can do and live by every snap. It isn't realistic. We couldn't win on our weakside iso, we couldn't win on outside zone, and they sat all over high percentage concepts after the 1st qtr. We just don't have the horses to counter adjust. This has been the theme across entire position groups for multiple years - OL, WR's, Dline, LB's...
well, you aRE a dumb shit on a lot of things, just not "Xs" and "Os".
I blasted the play calling, and since you are too arrogant to read it, Shirley Tiam, I'll tell you flat out - Mike Vrabel blasted Stupanskis play calling.
So, you want to say Vrable doesn't know anything, but you are a so called grand poobah of football?
You should STFU once in a while, and yes, you would probably be like Aikman or Collinsworth. Too arrogant to be decent in most conversations.
Guess what I just found:
-
Aren't you in NC? Get your Goat was something I heard that shit all the time growing up as a kid in the Carolinas.
I'm on the North Coast, my guy. I lived in noVA for a few years though.
1) I get Watson saddled this team down hard, and not unlike Tua in Miami right now you have to play the guy who is earning that level of cheddar. But your points are all circling to my central thought around all this- has Kevin's scheme, offensive philosophy, and talent evaluation (which I'm overtly including the GM, etc in that) run it's course? Has the process gotten stale to the point where even if we had more solid play making, would it show in the record?
Kevin's offensive philosophy isn't all that dissimilar to a lot of what Shanny and KoC do.
- He's a zone blocking disciple
- Effectively run on vertical, iso, duo, and power concepts.
- Generate explosive runs on outside zones and pin & Pull
- Setup the misdirection and vertical passing game off the running game.
These things don't require spectacular players. But they do require a mix of starting and NFL average talent to execute.
Right now we lack either of those for the QB spot and 40% of the OL. That's no small deficiency when you're in a league of the finest football players on earth. If I said 40% of the workforce at, wherever your job is, wasn't up to standard, there would be a company wide issue, no?
2) A la Shanny- I've never been to suggest Kevin deserves a short leash. It's apparent that this squad blows and sucked last year as well. But to your point, there has to at least be something there, IMO, that shows a coach is getting the most out of the roster they do have.
I think seeing this team be competitive against a squad that might win the AFCE for 2.5 quarters, and should have walked into halftime with a lead, sort of speaks to that answer.
The issue is squeezing blood from a rock. The opening and sometimes 2nd drives are solid and demonstrating sound game planning and scouting by the offensive coaching staff. But the adjustments don't just happen at halftime. They happen usually in between drives. Once the Patriots Defense settled in after some well designed plays that put them on their heels, then their talent across the board trumped our ability to execute bread and butter offensive staples.
I know @calfoxwc likes to say dumb shit like "draw up plays to confuse the defense"... Stefanski did early, and it worked. But that isn't something you can do and live by every snap. It isn't realistic. We couldn't win on our weakside iso, we couldn't win on outside zone, and they sat all over high percentage concepts after the 1st qtr. We just don't have the horses to counter adjust. This has been the theme across entire position groups for multiple years - OL, WR's, Dline, LB's...
Like, hard to watch flat. Vrabel said it best -when the trick plays ran out, we could stop them.
Circle back around to my comment above. When you don't have the guys to win their individual assignments, you have to get "gimmicky" and reach deep into the bag. But that is not a stable, consistent offense. Once you put a lid on it, the offensive efficiency has to be leaned on. We can't be efficient for a lack of personnel.
It's a tired record, one I know people don't *WANT* to hear, but it's the truth. The problem is fans somehow expecting the same results week to week with a roster imbalance. What this team can do is incredibly limited to our opponents abilities and roster strength. You can run all over Miami, but you can't against New England. As such, the rest of the machine suffers.
I think Stefanski did an incredible job of this in 2023, but the last two years have been an absolute disaster. Scoring more than 20 points 4 times in the last 25+ games is an absolutely brutal call to this.
So the question becomes at the broad level- is this truly a talent problem, or is Kevin's evolution as an offensive mind running dry? Does, as I've mentioned, need to be recalibrated with a fresh start somewhere else? I want to make it clear that I'm not overtly on one side of the fence or the other (although my feet are probably dangling on the parting of ways).
I think Tommy Rees is something of that "recalibration" I've seen fresh concepts and things brought to this offense. I detailed that in my youtube analysis of Gabriel in the pre-season. But with that, there's only so far that these new installs will take you once they're out there for defenses to dissect and prepare for.
What I really can't get over in the immediate is that Dillon was his guy. It may end up coming out that the plan all along was to draft him as a high level back-up (Chase Daniels) type, punt this season, and God willing get the dude next year. It would be prudent to do that, candidly, given the Watson contract and draft capital. But when you have a dude out there who is dead last in YPA, air yards per throw, and 2nd to last in QBR (and essentially dead last) in an extended sample size, knowing that's the dude you reached for? Not ideal.
Agreed almost entirely. I think Stef goes to bat for his guys and won't throw people under the bus like how Hue or Pat Shurmur would. That's how you lose your locker room. But I'm not sold that Stefanski made Gabriel "his guy". You traditionally have a "coaches pick" every season, and I'm sure Stef has stepped up to claim Gabriel, in a respect. But I don't believe he poured over every single game for 2+ seasons and went "this is our guy either 1a or 2b". And if I'm wrong, then Stef may be a fine coach, but a great evaluator of talent he is not. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't have a coach having his pick once a year if it blows.
My fear was Gabriel was an overreach. By my estimate 2 rounds. That looks more and more the case every week.
Lastly, funny enough? The Browns in the initial rankings of Madden 25 the Browns were only slightly considered worse than Buffalo (88 to 87), and above both Detroit and New England: https://www.gamesradar.com/games/madden-nfl/madden-25-best-teams/. Makes you think-
Paper Tiger. Everyone looks great on X's and O's until the real bullets start flying. I'd be curious what that rating is now. Not that it really means much.
I know @calfoxwc likes to say dumb shit like "draw up plays to confuse the defense"... Stefanski did early, and it worked. But that isn't something you can do and live by every snap. It isn't realistic.
oh, and I was talking about his play-calling.
and, you are a liar. I searched for "draw up plays to confuse the defense" in this entire thread, and the only result was your post. A few inventive plays can get a defense to second guess, maybe hesitate. Again, I've listened over the years to Vrabel, and shirley, you are NO Vrabel.
You make lame excuses to defend Teflon Stupanski. fine. And you dissed Josh Allen as garbage when we had the first pick and he was my pick in my stupid mock draft.......
. But you know your "Xs" and "Os", sure. LOL
-
I know @calfoxwc likes to say dumb shit like "draw up plays to confuse the defense"... Stefanski did early, and it worked. But that isn't something you can do and live by every snap. It isn't realistic. We couldn't win on our weakside iso, we couldn't win on outside zone, and they sat all over high percentage concepts after the 1st qtr. We just don't have the horses to counter adjust. This has been the theme across entire position groups for multiple years - OL, WR's, Dline, LB's...
well, you aRE a dumb shit on a lot of things, just not "Xs" and "Os".
I blasted the play calling, and since you are too arrogant to read it, Shirley Tiam, I'll tell you flat out - Mike Vrabel blasted Stupanskis play calling.
So, you want to say Vrable doesn't know anything, but you are a so called grand poobah of football?
You should STFU once in a while, and yes, you would probably be like Aikman or Collinsworth. Too arrogant to be decent in most conversations.
Guess what I just found:
well, you aRE a dumb shit on a lot of things, just not "Xs" and "Os".
I blasted the play calling, and since you are too arrogant to read it, Shirley Tiam, I'll tell you flat out - Mike Vrabel blasted Stupanskis play calling.
So, you want to say Vrable doesn't know anything, but you are a so called grand poobah of football?
You should STFU once in a while, and yes, you would probably be like Aikman or Collinsworth. Too arrogant to be decent in most conversations.
You're socially awkward, bud. And you grew up that way, so I don't blame you for not picking up on social queues.
Mike Vrabel isn't blasting any coach. That isn't his style. And those believing that's what he's doing here are misrepresenting his intent or completely failed to understand what the man is saying.
- The Brownies opened with some trickery, some "gimmicky" play calls early. They did this to take advantage of an overly aggressive Patriots defense.
It worked a treat early. This is where the Xs and Os come in, so pay close attention.
- Vrabel is a Bill Belicheck disiple
- Means he has stolen some things defensively along the way.
- One of those things are installing odd fronts that naturally 2 gap. This means IDL plugging 2 gaps instead of just 1 (like Schwartz does) This (usually) means they feature 3 big IDLs that occupy anywhere from 3-5 gaps along the offensive line.
- what this means is that the Patriots, provided their DL holds up, can committ fewer bodies to limiting the running game while not surrendering numbers on the backend. It's incredibly effective against "lesser" teams, or teams that don't have the ability along the OL to win assignments against 2 gap defenses.
- the Patriots came out and starting A LOT of 2 gapping. Brownies OL couldn't win their assignments, and running lanes were a traffic ridden mess where you average 2ypc.
- So this mean that your standard offensive calls, which have a certain efficiency number tied to them (4ypc as an example) are cut in half. Your offense cant efficiently move the ball.
- the defense no longer has to play aggressive to run fits. They can patiently pace their heels and instead focus on being assignment sound and "staying home"
- your trick plays that you would use to counter an aggressive defense no longer work. Your gimmick, to manufacture cheap offensive yards, is gone.
- your play calling is incredibly limited. Now, like a python, you're slowly being constricted on offense. No efficiency means little to no explosion. Defense wears down, flood gates open late.
No, to clarify for yourself or anyone here who thinks Vrabel was insulting Stefanski directly - you are wrong.
He was saying that once the game settled in, and it came time to run your offense, they could limit the trick plays because the Pats just straight up were better across the board.
It sounds harsh, coming from coach Vrabel. But it isn't meant to be insulting.
-
well, you aRE a dumb shit on a lot of things, just not "Xs" and "Os".
I blasted the play calling, and since you are too arrogant to read it, Shirley Tiam, I'll tell you flat out - Mike Vrabel blasted Stupanskis play calling.
So, you want to say Vrable doesn't know anything, but you are a so called grand poobah of football?
You should STFU once in a while, and yes, you would probably be like Aikman or Collinsworth. Too arrogant to be decent in most conversations.
You're socially awkward, bud. And you grew up that way, so I don't blame you for not picking up on social queues.
Mike Vrabel isn't blasting any coach. That isn't his style. And those believing that's what he's doing here are misrepresenting his intent or completely failed to understand what the man is saying.
- The Brownies opened with some trickery, some "gimmicky" play calls early. They did this to take advantage of an overly aggressive Patriots defense.
It worked a treat early. This is where the Xs and Os come in, so pay close attention.
- Vrabel is a Bill Belicheck disiple
- Means he has stolen some things defensively along the way.
- One of those things are installing odd fronts that naturally 2 gap. This means IDL plugging 2 gaps instead of just 1 (like Schwartz does) This (usually) means they feature 3 big IDLs that occupy anywhere from 3-5 gaps along the offensive line.
- what this means is that the Patriots, provided their DL holds up, can committ fewer bodies to limiting the running game while not surrendering numbers on the backend. It's incredibly effective against "lesser" teams, or teams that don't have the ability along the OL to win assignments against 2 gap defenses.
- the Patriots came out and starting A LOT of 2 gapping. Brownies OL couldn't win their assignments, and running lanes were a traffic ridden mess where you average 2ypc.
- So this mean that your standard offensive calls, which have a certain efficiency number tied to them (4ypc as an example) are cut in half. Your offense cant efficiently move the ball.
- the defense no longer has to play aggressive to run fits. They can patiently pace their heels and instead focus on being assignment sound and "staying home"
- your trick plays that you would use to counter an aggressive defense no longer work. Your gimmick, to manufacture cheap offensive yards, is gone.
- your play calling is incredibly limited. Now, like a python, you're slowly being constricted on offense. No efficiency means little to no explosion. Defense wears down, flood gates open late.
No, to clarify for yourself or anyone here who thinks Vrabel was insulting Stefanski directly - you are wrong.
He was saying that once the game settled in, and it came time to run your offense, they could limit the trick plays because the Pats just straight up were better across the board.
It sounds harsh, coming from coach Vrabel. But it isn't meant to be insulting.
(Troy Aikman, Chris Collinsworth blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah)
I never said anything about Vrabel intending to insult your stupanski, Shirley.
Those of us who have been criticizing stupanski's play calling watch the game without playing with our egos, or worse.
Even your sweetheart head coach said his play calling needs to improve.
So, that is straight from the horse's mouth, you pompous, bloviated horses ass.
Have a nice day in pouty Shirley Land.
Kevin Stefanski shares update on Cleveland Browns' playcalling situation
With pressure mounting to deliver better results, Cleveland's head coach acknowledges the need for improvement in this area -
I know @calfoxwc likes to say dumb shit like "draw up plays to confuse the defense"... Stefanski did early, and it worked. But that isn't something you can do and live by every snap. It isn't realistic.
oh, and I was talking about his play-calling.
and, you are a liar. I searched for "draw up plays to confuse the defense" in this entire thread, and the only result was your post. A few inventive plays can get a defense to second guess, maybe hesitate. Again, I've listened over the years to Vrabel, and shirley, you are NO Vrabel.
You make lame excuses to defend Teflon Stupanski. fine. And you dissed Josh Allen as garbage when we had the first pick and he was my pick in my stupid mock draft.......
. But you know your "Xs" and "Os", sure. LOL
oh, and I was talking about his play-calling.
and, you are a liar. I searched for "draw up plays to confuse the defense" in this entire thread, and the only result was your post.
10/16
Sorry, I said "confuse" instead of "fool"
The point remains the same for both you and I.
And never call me a liar again.
-
Sweet Jesus, the 70 something toddler must have a full diaper today.
Your inferiority complexes have inferiority complexes, cal.
-
oh, and I was talking about his play-calling.
and, you are a liar. I searched for "draw up plays to confuse the defense" in this entire thread, and the only result was your post.
10/16
Sorry, I said "confuse" instead of "fool"
The point remains the same for both you and I.
And never call me a liar again.
10/16
Sorry, I said "confuse" instead of "fool"
The point remains the same for both you and I.
And never call me a liar again.
And the point remains Shitmypantski is an awful head coach no matter how you choose to spin it.. But keep on keepin on...
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