Why is it so hard to believe that Quinn could be a bust?
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@inspecta said:
Because dude, then he'd have nothing to instigate the board with.Everybody is on board with DA starting the rest of the season, this is bad news for stan and lums. Because without our opposition they have nothing to post about, so they are now in the business of creating opposition that does not exist...
I'm only on board with it because it's beyond our control. I find it hard to beleive he's a true bust, just an awful place to be for all involved.
After all isn't everyone on board that a 6-10 record is ok?
I didn't think so.
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Taking QBs & RBs high in the draft often has poor results. The glamour positions are high-risk, high-reward.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the failed draft picks of many franchises, starting with our own. Drafting high doesn't guarantee success, just ask the Cowboys, Steelers, & Raiders of the 70s (Rams, Redskins, & Dolphins too), who basically dominated that era and picked anywhere from 21-26 before expansion. Or in today's case, look at the Browns, Raiders, & Lions for instance, drafting high and not getting high returns.
You HAVE to get a bit lucky with your picks, even after all the homework these teams do in preparation for the draft.
Taking QBs & RBs high in the draft often has poor results. The glamour positions are high-risk, high-reward.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the failed draft picks of many franchises, starting with our own. Drafting high doesn't guarantee success, just ask the Cowboys, Steelers, & Raiders of the 70s (Rams, Redskins, & Dolphins too), who basically dominated that era and picked anywhere from 21-26 before expansion. Or in today's case, look at the Browns, Raiders, & Lions for instance, drafting high and not getting high returns.
You HAVE to get a bit lucky with your picks, even after all the homework these teams do in preparation for the draft.
Man, we use to debate this endlessly in the Couch years. I believe the consensus was that you can find a retread QB that can be very productive for you through free agency, but teams just don't give up and kick a great RB to the curb (unless otherwise a head case), you will have to draft one and usually high.
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I don't think you can declare a guy a "bust" after 5 games. But it is Mangini's job to determine whether Quinn's potential star shines bright enough to invest two years worth of starts -- and potentially Retard team evaluation and growth -- in order to be able to gauge that. He's had an extended look at the kid to make that determination. If Mangini's arrived at the answer and it is "no", it would be plain silly to sacrifice two years of starts on the kid on the "we gotta find out" theory.
Again, look at Opie's history with QB decisions -- Redman, Boller, Josh Harris, DA, Dilfer, Frye, Dorsey, Quinn. And think about the two QBs he was even hotter for in the Boller and Quinn years -- Leftwich and Russell. Keeping the question mark of Quinn out of the equation, anybody think we wouldn't have been better off staying pat with Garcia and McCown and saving picks on our trades for Dilfer and Dorsey and drafting Frye? So who gives credence to the fact that Opie saw something in Quinn that the 20 teams who didn't have to have the kid with their pick?
Quinn needs a WCO-type system if he is to thrive in the NFL IMO. Mangini/Daboll eventually want to pound the ball and use their QB to stretch the field, take some shots and convert the occasional third down. If they're not sold that Quinn can be "the guy" and not just a guy, Anderson is the better stand in until they get "that guy". Now add the fact that Quinn's extended audition would potentially cost the team $11 million worth of currently gradable talent on a team facing a talent void.
Mangini's staking his career on the fact that Quinn will not be a star in his system and that it's not worth building a system around his talents. He has a better sample than we do and a better understanding of what he wants from his offense. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt over, oh, say Bruce Drennan or Tony Rizzo.
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Masters said:
If you want to buy that, after his college coaching staff couldn't do it and neither could the previous coaching staff, fine. But I am not.With his physical attributes (arm and height) which are what HC/GM/OC's have wet dreams about over a QB, you'd think someone around the NFL would have thought higher of him than a 6th round pick, if they really felt his flaws could simply be coached up.
Heck, when DA was a RFA after his great 2007, if other teams really felt he just needing coached up, someone would have made an attempt to get him. A first and a thrid round pick for a guy with those tools and the ability to be coached up would be a steal. There is a reason DA accepted a less than market value contract.
I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong about DA, but I am not holding my breath.
If you want to buy that, after his college coaching staff couldn't do it and neither could the previous coaching staff, fine. But I am not.
This implies that a player peaks in college and is ready day 1 in the NFL in the most difficult position in sports. Any QB needs a 3 year minimum to develope and since this would be technically his 3rd year; it's make or break for him. Plus, he has never been treated as the starter or "the guy" by any coaching staff. Two very important factors.
Heck, when DA was a RFA after his great 2007, if other teams really felt he just needing coached up, someone would have made an attempt to get him. A first and a thrid round pick for a guy with those tools and the ability to be coached up would be a steal. There is a reason DA accepted a less than market value contract.
Nobody is going to give up a first and third for a guy they need to develope. They can draft there own guy two years younger and do that in there system. And there was talk about trading to Dallas but Dallas wanted to trade with Baltimore so it never happened.
I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong about DA, but I am not holding my breath.
I think we're all gonna be pretty pleased with what we see from here on out. In 2007 DA was Jaworski's favorite young QB to watch on tape. 2008, everyone took a shit and DA, among others on the team, took a hit for it. I think it's his time. It's sink or swim time for DA and I think he's got it this time.
This implies that a player peaks in college and is ready day 1 in the NFL in the most difficult position in sports. Any QB needs a 3 year minimum to develope and since this would be technically his 3rd year; it's make or break for him. Plus, he has never been treated as the starter or "the guy" by any coaching staff. Two very important factors.
It doesn't imply that at all unless you try to force a round peg into a square hole. I am implying a player will show some progress over that time. DA has not. DA has been in the NFL since 2005. This is his 5th year. He's never been treated as the starter or "the guy: by any staff? What was last year w/ him named the starter before the NFL draft even occured? Two false factors.
Are you really going to on one hand say the guy needs 3 years minimum to develope, then say elsewhere that a QB like Quinn is a bust and will never get better
Nobody is going to give up a first and third for a guy they need to develope. They can draft there own guy two years younger and do that in there system. And there was talk about trading to Dallas but Dallas wanted to trade with Baltimore so it never happened.
But look at his 2007 season? Isn't that what is said as to why people believe he is legit? If he was legit, what you just said would not apply to him.
I think we're all gonna be pretty pleased with what we see from here on out. In 2007 DA was Jaworski's favorite young QB to watch on tape. 2008, everyone took a shit and DA, among others on the team, took a hit for it. I think it's his time. It's sink or swim time for DA and I think he's got it this time.
And he was on Jaws disappointment list in2008. Guess who was on Jaws list of favorite young QBs in 2008 and he thought was the future of the Browns? The other guy. So what exactly does your comment really tell us?
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The thing that bothers me the most about the whole thing is that we might NEVER know for sure. Ans that's what sucks, because of what the Browns traded away. How do you trade that away to jump up and never really find out if the kid has "it" or might develop "it"?
He has been screwed over his whole career by two different HC, 2 different OC and systems and only been given 2 1/2 games in a new system vs. 3 of the Top 7 Defenses in the league to show what he's got?
Hell, then Daboll should have been fired as well. His playcalling was horrible for those games. The personnel (MoMass, Harrsion) was different for those games.
Now, we pull him, right before we play the 16th ranked D and all of a sudden we start to play an actual WR at the #2 spot and put in a RB who can actually run. And lo and behold we get better. But, everyone wants to give DA all the credit.
To me, when it all comes down to it, I just can't believe we are judging this kid's career, one way or the other, on 2 1/2 games with a new OC who is horrible at playcalling.
We might never find out until he beats us with another team.
Atlanta made this mistake 17 years ago with their young QB who was just a hick from So. Miss.
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The thing that bothers me the most about the whole thing is that we might NEVER know for sure. Ans that's what sucks, because of what the Browns traded away. How do you trade that away to jump up and never really find out if the kid has "it" or might develop "it"?
He has been screwed over his whole career by two different HC, 2 different OC and systems and only been given 2 1/2 games in a new system vs. 3 of the Top 7 Defenses in the league to show what he's got?
Hell, then Daboll should have been fired as well. His playcalling was horrible for those games. The personnel (MoMass, Harrsion) was different for those games.
Now, we pull him, right before we play the 16th ranked D and all of a sudden we start to play an actual WR at the #2 spot and put in a RB who can actually run. And lo and behold we get better. But, everyone wants to give DA all the credit.
To me, when it all comes down to it, I just can't believe we are judging this kid's career, one way or the other, on 2 1/2 games with a new OC who is horrible at playcalling.
We might never find out until he beats us with another team.
Atlanta made this mistake 17 years ago with their young QB who was just a hick from So. Miss.
Atlanta made this mistake 17 years ago with their young QB who was just a hick from So. Miss.
Favre never started a game in Atlanta and threw only 4 passes there.
Quinn has started 6 games and thrown over 170 passes. He's started 4 other preseason games.
It's not like he's an unknown commodity (even though BQ Nation keeps saying that even as the game experience stacks up)
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Taking QBs & RBs high in the draft often has poor results. The glamour positions are high-risk, high-reward.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the failed draft picks of many franchises, starting with our own. Drafting high doesn't guarantee success, just ask the Cowboys, Steelers, & Raiders of the 70s (Rams, Redskins, & Dolphins too), who basically dominated that era and picked anywhere from 21-26 before expansion. Or in today's case, look at the Browns, Raiders, & Lions for instance, drafting high and not getting high returns.
You HAVE to get a bit lucky with your picks, even after all the homework these teams do in preparation for the draft.
Man, we use to debate this endlessly in the Couch years. I believe the consensus was that you can find a retread QB that can be very productive for you through free agency, but teams just don't give up and kick a great RB to the curb (unless otherwise a head case), you will have to draft one and usually high.
Man, we use to debate this endlessly in the Couch years. I believe the consensus was that you can find a retread QB that can be very productive for you through free agency, but teams just don't give up and kick a great RB to the curb (unless otherwise a head case), you will have to draft one and usually high.
Yeah, while I don't totally disagree, it just gets so much more magnified when you draft a Ki-Jana Carter, Rashan Salaam, Heath Schuler, Tim Couch, etc., and they don't pan out (injury, poor performance, not NFL-ready, whatever). It sets your team back big time.
It is indeed a tiresome debate, especially in Cleveland, where we have far too many misses than hits.
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Atlanta made this mistake 17 years ago with their young QB who was just a hick from So. Miss.
Favre never started a game in Atlanta and threw only 4 passes there.
Quinn has started 6 games and thrown over 170 passes. He's started 4 other preseason games.
It's not like he's an unknown commodity (even though BQ Nation keeps saying that even as the game experience stacks up)
Favre never started a game in Atlanta and threw only 4 passes there.
Quinn has started 6 games and thrown over 170 passes. He's started 4 other preseason games.
It's not like he's an unknown commodity (even though BQ Nation keeps saying that even as the game experience stacks up)
Quinn has started 6 games, but with two OC, 2 HC, two off. systems. He played very well in the first game in his first stint and then broke his throwing hand finger, so discount 1 1/2 of those games that year. Then he has an new OC and HC who can't make up his damn mind on anything and yes, had 1 1/2 poor outings. Well, so did the whole team and the OC who calls the damn plays.
the bottom line, no matter what QB you are on bottom for Lumnuts, we don't know for sure yet on Quinn.
We DO know for sure that DA definitely is NOT the answer for the best future of the Browns. If you think he is, then the future of this franchise looks pretty damn bad. Almost as bad as DA's 3 INT's in one half.
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I love fuzzy logic. 29 NFL starts and 3 preseasons, not enough time to evaluate/develope. 5 1/2 NFL games, 2 1/2 preseasons, plenty of time to evaluate/develope
Watch, this will now be turned into me saying go back to BQ and I will be called a "BQ fag" (this is about your straw man and not either QB).
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I love fuzzy logic. 29 NFL starts and 3 preseasons, not enough time to evaluate/develope. 5 1/2 NFL games, 2 1/2 preseasons, plenty of time to evaluate/develope
Watch, this will now be turned into me saying go back to BQ and I will be called a "BQ fag" (this is about your straw man and not either QB).
Masters said:
I love fuzzy logic. 29 NFL starts and 3 preseasons, not enough time to evaluate/develope. 5 1/2 NFL games, 2 1/2 preseasons, plenty of time to evaluate/develope
Watch, this will now be turned into me saying go back to BQ and I will be called a "BQ fag" (this is about your straw man and not either QB).
as I've said before, you get more leash when you throw a shitload of TD passes in your first 6 games, beat the Bengals, beat the Ravens, get named NFL Player of the Week.
You go 1-5, throw a total of 3 TDs, you get less leash.
and quit spelling develop with an e on the end. I hate being a spelling bitch but you put that word in every damn post.
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this threads awesome. in summary....
queens ladies are still saying DA sucks.....
DA's boys are saying they know, but quinn sucks worse.
all of which is true.....at least we scored a touchdown....a feat the domer could get done. que the vast list of excuses used to defend DA 2 years ago....
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@jadbf said:
You see now this I actually agree with.We'd just disagree on the fact that I believe DA has wrapped his leash around the tree, and I'm not sure he has the ability to get himself unwrapped.
Oh my god, the leash around the tree is the worst. Hate it when that happens, damn dog is normally to stupid to get unwrapped. I know what you mean.
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The thing that bothers me the most about the whole thing is that we might NEVER know for sure. Ans that's what sucks, because of what the Browns traded away. How do you trade that away to jump up and never really find out if the kid has "it" or might develop "it"?
He has been screwed over his whole career by two different HC, 2 different OC and systems and only been given 2 1/2 games in a new system vs. 3 of the Top 7 Defenses in the league to show what he's got?
Hell, then Daboll should have been fired as well. His playcalling was horrible for those games. The personnel (MoMass, Harrsion) was different for those games.
Now, we pull him, right before we play the 16th ranked D and all of a sudden we start to play an actual WR at the #2 spot and put in a RB who can actually run. And lo and behold we get better. But, everyone wants to give DA all the credit.
To me, when it all comes down to it, I just can't believe we are judging this kid's career, one way or the other, on 2 1/2 games with a new OC who is horrible at playcalling.
We might never find out until he beats us with another team.
Atlanta made this mistake 17 years ago with their young QB who was just a hick from So. Miss.
Atlanta made this mistake 17 years ago with their young QB who was just a hick from So. Miss.
What if it is Anderson who is Favre?
Comparison of Favre's first 2 years and Anderson's:
1992-93 Green Bay Games 15 Rating 85.3 Completions 302 Attempts 471 Percentage 64.1 Yards 3227 TD 18 INT 13
1993-94 Green Bay Games 16 Rating 72.2 Completions 318 Attempts 522 Percentage 60.9 Yards 3303 TD 19 INT 24
2007 CLE Games 16 Rating 82.5 Completions 298 Attempts 527 Percentage 56.5 Yards 3787 TD 29 INT 19
2008 CLE Games 10 Rating 66.5 Completions 142 Attempts 283 Percentage 50.2 Yards 1615 TD 9 INT 8
Anderson's 2007 season actually compares favorably to Favre. Favre has always been in a high % YAC system which will affect passer rating, which is heavily driven by completion percentage. Anderson had more yards, more TDs, and a much better TD to INT ratio in 2007. Anderson led his team to a 10-5 record. Favre was 9-6.
Anderson's fall off in 2008 was more pronounced than Favre's in 93, but Favre did regress . . . at least statistically. Favre's rating dipped to a sub Couch/Holcomb type rating of 72 in a system that lends itself to high completion percentages. He threw far more picks than TDs.
I don't think that Anderson is Favre. And that's going to be a tough comparison for ANY QB. But if the argument is that we know by Anderson's 27 games what we have -- and we determined that by Anderson's regression in 2008 -- the Favre comparison would show an accepted dip in year two.
And with Winslow hurt or ineffective for almost the entire 2008 season and Donte Stallworth an invisible replacement for JJ no matter who started, I'd take my chances with Sterling Sharpe, Mark Clayton and Jackie Harris over Braylon Edwards, Donte Stallworth and a revolving door of Steve Heiden and a damaged Kellen Winslow. I'm crazy that way.
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@jadbf said:
Comparing Anderson to Favre makes as much sense as comparing Quinn to Eli Manning....Anderson is to Favre as Quinn is to:
A. Peyton Manning
B. Eli Manning
C. Archie Manning
D. Rick Manning
So Eli was the answer?
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Taking QBs & RBs high in the draft often has poor results. The glamour positions are high-risk, high-reward.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the failed draft picks of many franchises, starting with our own. Drafting high doesn't guarantee success, just ask the Cowboys, Steelers, & Raiders of the 70s (Rams, Redskins, & Dolphins too), who basically dominated that era and picked anywhere from 21-26 before expansion. Or in today's case, look at the Browns, Raiders, & Lions for instance, drafting high and not getting high returns.
You HAVE to get a bit lucky with your picks, even after all the homework these teams do in preparation for the draft.
Taking QBs & RBs high in the draft often has poor results. The glamour positions are high-risk, high-reward.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the failed draft picks of many franchises, starting with our own. Drafting high doesn't guarantee success, just ask the Cowboys, Steelers, & Raiders of the 70s (Rams, Redskins, & Dolphins too), who basically dominated that era and picked anywhere from 21-26 before expansion. Or in today's case, look at the Browns, Raiders, & Lions for instance, drafting high and not getting high returns.
You HAVE to get a bit lucky with your picks, even after all the homework these teams do in preparation for the draft.
Or good....Can't not take a Qb if your picking #1 in the draft...especially this upcoming year... This is where all QB controversy starts in Cleveland....to pick a QB #1 or not...to me there is no not with us having a franchise LT in place....no question what so ever.
P.S i wanted ricky williams...because we had no Oline to protect a franchise Qb
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@jadbf said:
Comparing Anderson to Favre makes as much sense as comparing Quinn to Eli Manning....Anderson is to Favre as Quinn is to:
A. Peyton Manning
B. Eli Manning
C. Archie Manning
D. Rick Manning
So Eli was the answer?
Anderson is to Favre as Quinn is to:
A. Peyton Manning
B. Eli Manning
C. Archie Manning
D. Rick Manning
So Eli was the answer?
It was E. Rex Manning
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Man, we use to debate this endlessly in the Couch years. I believe the consensus was that you can find a retread QB that can be very productive for you through free agency, but teams just don't give up and kick a great RB to the curb (unless otherwise a head case), you will have to draft one and usually high.
Yeah, while I don't totally disagree, it just gets so much more magnified when you draft a Ki-Jana Carter, Rashan Salaam, Heath Schuler, Tim Couch, etc., and they don't pan out (injury, poor performance, not NFL-ready, whatever). It sets your team back big time.
It is indeed a tiresome debate, especially in Cleveland, where we have far too many misses than hits.
Yeah, while I don't totally disagree, it just gets so much more magnified when you draft a Ki-Jana Carter, Rashan Salaam, Heath Schuler, Tim Couch, etc., and they don't pan out (injury, poor performance, not NFL-ready, whatever). It sets your team back big time.
It is indeed a tiresome debate, especially in Cleveland, where we have far too many misses than hits.
From that logic we should never take QB with the #1 pick...lol....detroit shy'd away for way too long, Bengels shied away way too long, watch Oakland shy away for way too long, but eli manning, rivers,rothlis,ryan,flacco,sanchez don't be surprised if very soon belicheck doesn't jump up in one of these drafts and gets him a top flight QB....If bq truly aint it...time for a new one we have the LT now get the QB
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