Peter King
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I dont know. I've just never bought into the "we need the most draft picks!" mantra. When do we start demanding that these draft picks produce?
Why are we trading away talent because "they don't fit the direction of the team" just to acquire more draft picks? We brought in 9 guys from April. Only 2 have contributed.
All last night, the discussion was on Lee & Henning (phins QB coach & OC) and how they just design an offense to what suits the talent they have on the team. They beat a damn good Jets team last night. Why in the crap can't our coaches do that?
p.s. Great article Beans, "thanks"
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@shepwrite said:
Why can't Asamoah play right tackle?I could see him getting tried out there at the Senior Bowl, but I don't think it's a natural fit for him. Just doesn't seem nimble enough to make it work.
But he'd look good next to Mack.
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I dont know. I've just never bought into the "we need the most draft picks!" mantra. When do we start demanding that these draft picks produce?
Why are we trading away talent because "they don't fit the direction of the team" just to acquire more draft picks? We brought in 9 guys from April. Only 2 have contributed.
All last night, the discussion was on Lee & Henning (phins QB coach & OC) and how they just design an offense to what suits the talent they have on the team. They beat a damn good Jets team last night. Why in the crap can't our coaches do that?
p.s. Great article Beans, "thanks"
I dont know. I've just never bought into the "we need the most draft picks!" mantra. When do we start demanding that these draft picks produce?
Why are we trading away talent because "they don't fit the direction of the team" just to acquire more draft picks? We brought in 9 guys from April. Only 2 have contributed.
All last night, the discussion was on Lee & Henning (phins QB coach & OC) and how they just design an offense to what suits the talent they have on the team. They beat a damn good Jets team last night. Why in the crap can't our coaches do that?
p.s. Great article Beans, "thanks"
Legacy, I won't say that you're wrong because in some situations,...I would say that you can certainly mold a system to the players but this group of players needed blowing up. Of the players that Mangini and Kokinis have CUT....the majority (all but two) are out of the league. The locker room under Crennel was undisciplined and you risked becoming the Bengals of the early Marvin Lewis years. Miami's offensive line played out of its mind last night and we don't have Ronnie or Ricky to run it. Fasano is IMO underrated and Ted Ginn showed up last night.
Mangini and Belichick want guys to whom football is important. They don't want guys who like what football "gives" them but guys who live and breathe football and compete. As soon as Mangini was signed, K2 was a goner. No one with that amount of malcontent in him is going to last in a Belichick-Parcells-Mangini type of locker room. You can say that Mangini's resume doesn't match the other two but we all emulate our mentors when it comes to professional behavior and he's got to instill the discipline. The media will have you believe that when EM does it, it's torture but when someone else does it, it's discipline. Of the players in NY who were "glad" to see him go, I doubt you'll find a Pro Bowler amongst them. One reason that we won that ugly game on Sunday was that we only had three penalties. That's discipline. K2 is not a disciplined football player. Braylon Edwards can be a disciplined player if he wants to be but to be sure....Eric Mangini will not BEG anyone to get excited about being a Cleveland Brown. He did a mea culpa with Shaun Rogers and I don't think he gets enough credit for smoothing that over.
I think that people lose sight of another piece of this decision making process: George Kokinis. George Kokinis is a tough-minded guy who learned at the side of one of the best GMs in football. He and his coach are on the same page which is something that's been lacking in Cleveland and that's a positive. Give him some credit.
I am not saying that everyone needs to go from last year's team but when it comes to doing the tough things it takes to win in this league, some guys are up to it and some guys aren't and of the latter group...they can become the cancers that divide the team and hold it back. Just my perspective.
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@shepwrite said:
Here's a couple reasons why the draft matters to teams like the Browns: Joe Thomas and Alex Mack. They're becoming cornerstones on a unit that just might be viable already and terrific after one more draft and free agency season. This team is in serious rebuilding mode, not one or two free agents away, and we need to draft 21 or 22 year old kids who will be part of our team in 2011 and beyond, about the time we might actually be good.Not this coming offseason but the next, I think for the first time in ages, we'll be able to look at maybe 2-3 spots that need upgraded, and might choose to fill one of them with an overpriced free agent in the name of winning.
And that will happen by going into next April's draft when 11 or more likely 12 picks (after a quarterback or two is traded) and hopefully moving around to end up with 7 picks in the first few rounds.
The smartest thing the Browns can do with this season is find out what we have in Robiskie, Massoquoi, Veikune, and Francies. Play them and keep playing them. Same for Chanci Stuckey. Some of them will become building blocks for 2011, others won't... but there's only one way to find out. Jackson, Wimbley, Pool and Wright are young draft picks who've rounded into serious NFL starters. We need a few more.
Can't argue with too much of that at all.
We need to find a dominant defender or two in this next draft. Since we always seem to hire these so-called defensive gurus as head coaches, why not let them coach to their strength? We desperately need a pass rush, and an intimidating LB crew. We stop the opponent from scoring, we have a chance to compete...how simple is that?
If our scouting is great, and we actually draft smartly, we might be able to get away with drafting a QB in round #1, and pick up defensive help with these extra picks.
We're long overdue, time to turn this around.
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Earle - For the last 4 years, save for maybe Josh Cribbs, there was no one who played harder on the field than Kellen Winslow. He could have very well been a ding dong off of it (and by many accounts, he was). Miami didn't need a major dose of TNT after their 1-15 season? Some would argue they did.
I understand about the discipline and I'm all for it. Look, my HS lacrosse coach made me run around the campus (3+ miles) every time I shot "high" (putting the rock in the upper 90 corner was way sexier than bouncing one past the goalie) in practice - but not in games. But he was a HOF'er, All-American and also knew how to draw up a play in the dirt, and adjust our gameplan by exploiting mismatches to win. I was fast, could score when called upon, and could shut-down damn near anyone when playing defense. I (and the rest of the team) did what we were asked because we got results. So, if I didn't score a goal in a game because I was in the opposing team's top attackman's back pocket (and ear) all game, then so be it. WE WON CHAMPIONSHIPS. And this in a game where you turn-over 1/3 of your roster every year.
How does this translate to the Browns? With a little creativity (I'm being reasonable, not suggesting we use the VEE or the Spread option), and accountability (Anderson & Royal shouldn't see another down - Barton is getting close), the NFL can be a win now league. Winning and rebuilding are not mutually exclusive, if you have a smart and effective Coach (capitalized for emphasis - meaning, not just the guy with the headset on the sideline).
But again, I'm not completely disagreeing with your post. Just saying that the house-cleaning can occur with success at the same time if you know what you're doing.
And shep-
I agree with you too. We've got most of the pieces in place but haven't we been saying that for 3+ years?
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Earle - For the last 4 years, save for maybe Josh Cribbs, there was no one who played harder on the field than Kellen Winslow. He could have very well been a ding dong off of it (and by many accounts, he was). Miami didn't need a major dose of TNT after their 1-15 season? Some would argue they did.
I understand about the discipline and I'm all for it. Look, my HS lacrosse coach made me run around the campus (3+ miles) every time I shot "high" (putting the rock in the upper 90 corner was way sexier than bouncing one past the goalie) in practice - but not in games. But he was a HOF'er, All-American and also knew how to draw up a play in the dirt, and adjust our gameplan by exploiting mismatches to win. I was fast, could score when called upon, and could shut-down damn near anyone when playing defense. I (and the rest of the team) did what we were asked because we got results. So, if I didn't score a goal in a game because I was in the opposing team's top attackman's back pocket (and ear) all game, then so be it. WE WON CHAMPIONSHIPS. And this in a game where you turn-over 1/3 of your roster every year.
How does this translate to the Browns? With a little creativity (I'm being reasonable, not suggesting we use the VEE or the Spread option), and accountability (Anderson & Royal shouldn't see another down - Barton is getting close), the NFL can be a win now league. Winning and rebuilding are not mutually exclusive, if you have a smart and effective Coach (capitalized for emphasis - meaning, not just the guy with the headset on the sideline).
But again, I'm not completely disagreeing with your post. Just saying that the house-cleaning can occur with success at the same time if you know what you're doing.
And shep-
I agree with you too. We've got most of the pieces in place but haven't we been saying that for 3+ years?
Earle - For the last 4 years, save for maybe Josh Cribbs, there was no one who played harder on the field than Kellen Winslow. He could have very well been a ding dong off of it (and by many accounts, he was). Miami didn't need a major dose of TNT after their 1-15 season? Some would argue they did.
I understand about the discipline and I'm all for it. Look, my HS lacrosse coach made me run around the campus (3+ miles) every time I shot "high" (putting the rock in the upper 90 corner was way sexier than bouncing one past the goalie) in practice - but not in games. But he was a HOF'er, All-American and also knew how to draw up a play in the dirt, and adjust our gameplan by exploiting mismatches to win. I was fast, could score when called upon, and could shut-down damn near anyone when playing defense. I (and the rest of the team) did what we were asked because we got results. So, if I didn't score a goal in a game because I was in the opposing team's top attackman's back pocket (and ear) all game, then so be it. WE WON CHAMPIONSHIPS. And this in a game where you turn-over 1/3 of your roster every year.
How does this translate to the Browns? With a little creativity (I'm being reasonable, not suggesting we use the VEE or the Spread option), and accountability (Anderson & Royal shouldn't see another down - Barton is getting close), the NFL can be a win now league. Winning and rebuilding are not mutually exclusive, if you have a smart and effective Coach (capitalized for emphasis - meaning, not just the guy with the headset on the sideline).
But again, I'm not completely disagreeing with your post. Just saying that the house-cleaning can occur with success at the same time if you know what you're doing.
And shep-
I agree with you too. We've got most of the pieces in place but haven't we been saying that for 3+ years?
Fairly stated but I could and will willingly argue that Bill Parcells came in and fired Cam Cameron (one year into his deal), jettisoned his chosen "QB of the future" (J. Beck) and rid himself of the franchise player (J. Taylor) who wasn't about the Parcells program. This Browns team needed a lot of changes and Mangini will keep guys that are worth keeping (he's not stupid). I don't believe that he thinks Anderson's stats are up to par but I do think that he believes Anderson gives him a better chance to win by what he forces the defense to do. I don't want to get into another QB debate but this is an example of the "better chance to win" theory being about what's in the meeting room and on the coaches' film rather than what's in the stat column. The most important stat is a "W" and we have one now. While we can all roll our eyes at 2 for 17 passing, those that were in attendance at the game will admit that the winds were swirling at 40 mph and that there were more than a couple well-thrown balls that were simply dropped. Can you hang that on DA? I don't know how you can but more importantly,...I don't think EM would and honestly, he's the one who matters.
I think that most people who write anything about the Browns nationally don't even watch the Browns' games. I don't think they realize how bad this locker room was when the new regime arrived.
That said, I'm thinking that by the end of this season, the Browns will come around. I'm not predicting anything more than "come out and smack you in the mouth" competitiveness and desire but I think that there will be at least one game this season that the Browns upset someone's apple cart. That's not a stretch in my opinion.
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I'm definitely not hanging any of the legitimate drops on Anderson. (4-5ish) It's a total concentration and spirit killer for Anderson. I think that our coaches do not actually know what they have at quarterback right now. They made a mistake, and are using the "best chance to win" to cover it up. They can fall back to the 2007 season for a response as to why Anderson is starting (just like many on the board are doing).
But yeah, I'm in total agreement regarding the necessity of the locker-room overhaul. The aww-shucks attitude garners no respect. (Trying. to. avoid. another rip. on. DA.) whew. And the no-discipline leads to the mental failure we see out there every week (and saw for the past several years). Drops included.
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Legacy, as bad as it sounds....DA was the pick all along and if EM's track record with Pennington vs. Clemens can be of any guidance then he's just going to pick the guy and move on without wasting any more time on it. Some might argue that it's better that way because it muffles the arguing but in the end (as we all know) you don't really have a QB in that instance.
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What burns me up is the totality of the K2, Sanchez, BE deal. MoMass could have still been had. And maybe Magoola too. I wasn't high on Rey, but he's playing fairly well. And he's playing. Cant say the same for Veikune.
Sanchez doesnt seem to have any trouble throwing to BE. Imagine what we could have had for Quinn.
This is a serious mistake in player eval on Manini's part. 2.5 games? Total Bullshit. That kind of evaluation could have been made in the offseason.
Hell, Lumberg made it 2 years ago.
Sanchez doesnt seem to have any trouble throwing to BE. Imagine what we could have had for Quinn.
Remember the night he and DA put up against the Giants on Monday Night last year? It dwarfed that last game.
Just reinforces that Braylon gives effort when Braylon gives effort. And he quit doing it outside of Monday Night for Mangini and Crennell before him.
He had to go.
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Sanchez doesnt seem to have any trouble throwing to BE. Imagine what we could have had for Quinn.
Remember the night he and DA put up against the Giants on Monday Night last year? It dwarfed that last game.
Just reinforces that Braylon gives effort when Braylon gives effort. And he quit doing it outside of Monday Night for Mangini and Crennell before him.
He had to go.
Remember the night he and DA put up against the Giants on Monday Night last year? It dwarfed that last game.
Just reinforces that Braylon gives effort when Braylon gives effort. And he quit doing it outside of Monday Night for Mangini and Crennell before him.
He had to go.
Cant argue with that. Time will tell if BE only gave effort for a scattershot QB who got all of the credit for the 2007 season despite the circus catches routinely made by BE & K2 only when the rest of the world was watching (MNF's), instead of every Sunday. Because in his mind, the UM-tOSU thing existed, and why would he give it all for fans who didnt care for him?
(Just positing, I think for anyone to feel & act that way is completely ridiculous, but not out of the realm of possibility.)
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I posted this earlier today. Guess people don't use the scroll button on their mouses.
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The pessimist view on Kok's quote is he's simply buying time.
Seriously, why would he say something like: "Savage did a great job assembling talent for the most part. We're only a few pieces away from being competitive." Even if they believed that (doubtful) they still would say something more like ... well .... what he said.
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Tweet:
RT @mark_w_wellner: Any chance Joe Thomas gets traded to the packers? ... In the immortal words of Dean Wormer: 'Zero point zero zero.'
about 13 hours ago from TweetDeck
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I believe that Mangini and Kokinis turned over 26 players in the off season (cut or released) I think of those 26, 2 are on active rosters (53 man squads) and a couple on practice squads. I mean thats freakin bad..really bad. So it stands to reason theres a couple more guys who should be gone , but just can't be gone..YET. 11 draft picks is huge and allows a ton of manueving on Draft Day up or down depending what they are looking for.
Taking into account the Ravens drafts and the Jet drafts over the last 3-4 years I'm pretty confident that George and Eric will be bringin in some "Baller's".
Things are moving in the right direction for the Browns...FINALLY
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All I have to say is that if we beat Pittsburgh by some miracle, I will truly believe.
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I'm not a predictor, but in saying that we will give the Steelers a good game..The defense looks like its starting to grasp the concepts that are being taught and good pressure on Ben will occur.
I'm not trying to criticize Romeo and Phil but the "fact" in my last post is a telling one for sure
I think EM and GK have a plan and are working toward that moving forward.
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@jadbf said:
I just really can't over estimate how important it is for a regime to be able to get the players to buy into what ever system they are building. Yes you need good players too. But you can have the best athlete in the game, and if he doesn't buy into your system, it's like driving your ferrari with the parking break stuck on.See TO as an example on many teams.
And it's why great head coaches make average players look exceptional.
GOOD POINT J! And alot of people don't realize the addition by subtraction of Divas that may have this elite talent but they ALSO think they know more than the new coaching staff workngn with them.
Here's a reality - how many wins does the Winslow's new team have since he joined them? Okay, how many wins have the Jets enjoyed since Edwards arrived?
It sure seems like Shaun Rogers is emerging as the leader we'd hoped he'd be especially in the last 2 weeks. Is it a coincidence that this is around the same time Braylon was sent packing and all that was in the works behind the scenes?
SOMETIMES the hope is one of the Superstars takes pride that he's the man and he becomes MORE of a Ray Lewis type of leader (not so much in greatness but via EXAMPLE). I pretty much learned the difference in the Pittsburgh Steelers WITH #43 and WITHOUT him. It's enormous. He's not loud but who outworks the most talented player on that defense?
I can't join the media people that want to jump on every impefection that remains in the first season of transition with the new brass. All I can do is feel upbeat we have a STRONG pulse from the following young players:
Joe Thomas
Jerome Harrison
Alex Mack
Abraham Elam
Kam Wimbley (he's BACK)
Eric Wright
Josh Cribbs
MoMass (we'll really see this when we get a legit #1 WR as we saw when Cincy rolled their coverages to Edwards)
D'Qwell Jackson (last couple of weeks showed me something)
Lawrence Vickers
I don't think we're as far away as it appears sometimes. Refraining from the QB Civil War in this thread, I think the places we're hurting most is TE and at the #1 WR spot. I wish Braylon well in NY - BUT that's not the place you want to be dropping passes on 3rd down at home. They'll be a little more vicious in the press when/if that re-surfaces there. I promise!
- Tom F.
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