Its not the coaching..
-
I agree we settled on Mangini and thats the problem ......
I think a lot of you people are delusional who think Gruden or Shanahan or Cowher were lining up to take this job or will line up to take this job if Mangini gets shit-canned.
The roster was a joke. And Cleveland is not exactly the most desirable NFL city to set up shop. Any three of those guys can sit in studio jobs until the perfect situation comes around. Like Carolina (Cowher) or Jacksonville (Gruden). Shanahan is getting paid a ton NOT to coach! He has a tremendous ego, but he's also smart enough to realize he's got a clearer path in Washington in a city more suitable to his tastes.
Nobody who has options is going to select THIS Job.
It was Mangini or a first-time head coach who wasn't a hot candidate (like Crennel) or a college guy. And we aren't talking Urban Meyer.
I think a lot of you people are delusional who think Gruden or Shanahan or Cowher were lining up to take this job or will line up to take this job if Mangini gets shit-canned.
The roster was a joke. And Cleveland is not exactly the most desirable NFL city to set up shop. Any three of those guys can sit in studio jobs until the perfect situation comes around. Like Carolina (Cowher) or Jacksonville (Gruden). Shanahan is getting paid a ton NOT to coach! He has a tremendous ego, but he's also smart enough to realize he's got a clearer path in Washington in a city more suitable to his tastes.
Nobody who has options is going to select THIS Job.
It was Mangini or a first-time head coach who wasn't a hot candidate (like Crennel) or a college guy. And we aren't talking Urban Meyer.
Urban Meyer would be a terrible pro coach. All he does is run the spread offense with mobile-like QB's (Alex Smith at Utah, Chris Leak & Tebow at Florida) and that type of play doesnt work in the NFL, as the "Michael Vick experiment" has demonstrated.
-
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
That argument is such a cop out. Let me say this loudly. THE BROWNS DO NOT HAVE A TALENT PROBLEM. They have a congruence problem. The difference in talent from the top team in the league to the bottom team in the league is negligible at best. Now, some teams have excesses in talent in particular places... and that can make a big difference. But, when measuring NFL teams one to another, overall talent is rarely the deciding factor. The number 1 separator of NFL teams is congruence. Does the scheme match the coaching, match the players, match the environment? That is congruence. Right now, the Browns are failing in all four facets.
So much of football is "want-to". How much do you want it? How hard are you playing? How much are you giving? And if there is dissonance between the scheme and the players skills, it hurts the "want-to". If there is dissonance between the coach's style and the player's psyche, it hurts the "want-to". Every ounce of dissent and disagreement between a coach and a player, a scheme and a player takes up space in the psyche. It compromises focus, slows reactions, and limit's the players "want-to".
Did you ever notice when the Pittsburgh Steelers play defense, how much fun it looks like their having? It's because they are. What they're being asked to do matches their desire to do it. It "fits". You get yourself a bunch of big badasses and borderline criminals who like to push people around, and let them play downhill and punch people in the mouth. It works. It fits. And interestingly, they don't miss in the draft too often. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they know what they're looking for. They're out at the college games looking for "Steelers". They're not looking at stopwatches, they're not looking for a safety, they're not looking for a guard... they're looking for Steelers. And they've been looking for they same guys for 40 years, and they're damn good at it.
The Browns, on the other hand, don't know what they are. Mangini seems to know what he is... but he might be the only one. No one else can seem to get a read on the guy. You go try to do your job at 100% when you're trying to figure out if your boss's boss is plotting to get rid of you. It's tough. Try to do your job when you don't understand it and you don't know why your being asked to do it... then measure your effort.
Eric Mangini is a whiz kid. He's a football scientist of the first (OK maybe second) order. The problem is, most football players are not. There aren't a lot of 1520 SAT's on the field on Sunday afternoon. (Ok, I know they don't use the 1600 pt scale anymore, but you know what I mean). So what you end up with is a football team comprised of players that lack the cognitive skill to function within the system they're being given. It's incongruous. It's like asking a group of politicians to balance a checkbook. Oh they can do it, but it's going to be wrong half the time -- and when it isn't, it's going to take way too long. It's just not what they're good at. They've got the wrong skills.
Eric Mangini was hired because he has a vision of how to build a winning franchise. And to Randy Lerner's credit, that is a solution to a team that has no identity of its own. Mangini sold him on the idea that "... this is what a Cleveland Brown will be..." It's a hypothetical based on the implementation of Mangini's system. And he might be right. But there is no way on heaven or on earth that he's going to achieve his vision with this roster. And it's not because they "lack talent". It's because it's not a fit.
Since 1999, the Browns have had only 2 types of coaches, replicators and pacifiers. Romeo Crennell and Chris Palmer were the latter, Davis and Mangini the former. Davis was a Jimmy Johnson clone, and a poor one at that. Mangini, of course, is a Belichick disciple. Crennell parlayed his role as the insulation between Coach Parcells and the players into his grandpa Ro' role with the Browns. You can do some things that way, but in the mid-run (something sooner than the long run), that lovey-dovey coaching style will lead to an overall lack of intensity. Palmer was a pacifier, but he just pacified ownership, the fans, and anyone else who knew less football than he did. Plus, Chris is a coach, he's not a politician. He should've never been put in that role. But that's another story.
In 2009, the Browns have two problems (really several, but there are two big ones): The Browns have settled on Eric Mangini, who brings with him a system that does not suit more than half of the guys on this roster.... way more than half. This is compounded by problem #2 which is that Mangini's system isn't a fit for 80% or 90% of the guys in the league. It takes a special group of players to pull it off. It's hard enough when you have a replicated philosophy, but when you have one with such unique demands, the pool of appropriate players shrivels up pretty rapidly.
Put it this way, the Patriots have gone through a decade of trial and error to find guys who can play their system. Their biggest success seems to be in finding 8-9 year vets to come in and contribute for 1 or 2 years before they call it a career. Why do you suppose that is? Because guys that have been in the league for a long time find it easier to assimilate the complexities of the Patriot system. They're already pros. But it takes a lot of trial and error to find those guys. Last I checked there were only 3 or 4 guys left from that first championship team on the current roster. They have to keep shuttling guys in and out to make it work. And it's hard to weed through all that.
So, let's agree that the Patriots have been patient and masterful at finding "Patriot-type guys" in the league. OK, now add a Browns roster and a Chiefs and a Broncos roster that are looking for the same "guys". You just went from 53 guys to 212 (not counting the practice squads). It's quite possible that the Patriots have demonstrated over the last 10 years that there may not be 200 "patriot-type" guys in the NFL in any given year... There may not be 100. Which means, you're going to have to make some. And that is going to take time... and lots of it.
Now I'll listen to the argument that says, don't implement the system at the ground floor if you don't have at least a functional roster. But I'll probably disagree. The other argument is you force the system, take your lumps, then clear out the guys who don't fit. That also has it's merits.. but my God is it ugly on the front end. Mangini had some early success with the Jets by installing a hybrid of his system to more closely match the players he had. But compensating for guys that didn't fit, ended up extending the growing pains though 2008. Midway through 2008 that Jets team was still evolving into what Mangini wanted them to be. By that time he'd compromised his vision so far that it nearly imploded on itself. He didn't know what to do with the guys he had, and they didn't know what to do for him. He wasn't about to make that mistake again. He's not about to compromise how he wants something done to suit the talent of the players he has. They will fit him, or he'll do without. The downside is, it looks idiotic on the surface... and beyond that, of course, it may not work.
So here you are. You're witnessing the demolition of a team. And it probably has to be done. The worst part is it's like watching someone tear down your childhood home. Even if you knew they were going to build a beautiful new one on the same spot, it still hurts to watch them tear it apart. Add to that that you have no idea whether or not Mangini's plan will ever come to fruition, and you've got cause for alarm. I'd love to tell you that it will all be alright. But I can't say that. I can say that if it does work, it won't come easy. And there may be 2 or 3 seasons in row that are kinda like this one.
Anyway, the point of all this is, don't hang it all on the players, on Phil Savage, on Randy Lerner... there's plenty of blame to go around. Some of these guys will work out here. Most of them won't. Many will find some success somewhere else. But as much as it feels good to point to one thing and say, "there, that's the source of my pain." It's just not that easy. It, as "it" always seems to be, is more complicated than that.
-jj
Eric Mangini was hired because he has a vision of how to build a winning franchise. And to Randy Lerner's credit, that is a solution to a team that has no identity of its own. Mangini sold him on the idea that "... this is what a Cleveland Brown will be..." It's a hypothetical based on the implementation of Mangini's system. And he might be right. But there is no way on heaven or on earth that he's going to achieve his vision with this roster. And it's not because they "lack talent". It's because it's not a fit.
Correction here: Mangini was not hired because of his "Vision", he was hired because he and Randy were buddies back in the 90's when Mangini was a ballboy here and Randy's dad Al had close ties to Modell. Randy hung around the team a lot during those years and grew a tight relationship with Mangini. How else can anyone explain a more ridiculous hire than this? I have some relationships with people in the know and this story has been confirmed by multiple sources. It may be speculation, but it's pretty solid speculation.
Do me a favor - look at our coaching staff. Outside of Ryan, Bryan Cox and Brad Seely these guys are a bunch of buffoons. For example, look at this guy:
Andy Dickerson
Quality control/defense; born January 29, 1982, Wilmington, Del. Offensive lineman Tufts 1999-2002. No pro playing experience. College coach: Tufts 2003. Pro coach: New York Jets 2006-2008, joined Browns in 2009.
An offensive lineman for powerful Tufts. It doesn't list his 'intership' with NE in 2004-2005, but come on - THIS is the quality we have on our coaching staff? How does an OL for the TUFTS JUMBOS (yes - their nickname is the freakin' JUMBOS - with colors of light blue and brown they look like fairy-boys) become a defensive coach for us?
Lerner is a moron and every single move he has made lately is financial. This coaching staff probably makes less than the guys playing sax on the corner by the stadium....
F'IN PITIFUL.....
Tufts.
Are you kidding me?
I wouldn't play for this group of coaches either.
Gooooooo Jumbos!
-
I agree we settled on Mangini and thats the problem ......
I think a lot of you people are delusional who think Gruden or Shanahan or Cowher were lining up to take this job or will line up to take this job if Mangini gets shit-canned.
The roster was a joke. And Cleveland is not exactly the most desirable NFL city to set up shop. Any three of those guys can sit in studio jobs until the perfect situation comes around. Like Carolina (Cowher) or Jacksonville (Gruden). Shanahan is getting paid a ton NOT to coach! He has a tremendous ego, but he's also smart enough to realize he's got a clearer path in Washington in a city more suitable to his tastes.
Nobody who has options is going to select THIS Job.
It was Mangini or a first-time head coach who wasn't a hot candidate (like Crennel) or a college guy. And we aren't talking Urban Meyer.
The roster was a joke. And Cleveland is not exactly the most desirable NFL city to set up shop. Any three of those guys can sit in studio jobs until the perfect situation comes around. Like Carolina (Cowher) or Jacksonville (Gruden). Shanahan is getting paid a ton NOT to coach! He has a tremendous ego, but he's also smart enough to realize he's got a clearer path in Washington in a city more suitable to his tastes.
Nobody who has options is going to select THIS Job.
Outside of the lack of talent, the real reason no coach wants to come here is the same reason this organization is a joke and is getting ridiculed by national media left and right - It's the OWNER.
As long as Tommy-Boy owns this team we are screwed. Anyone denying that is in denial and need to go to therapy.
He is NOT his dad. He IS as bad an owner as there is in sports. Don't fool yourselves into thinking otherwise.
-
I think a lot of you people are delusional who think Gruden or Shanahan or Cowher were lining up to take this job or will line up to take this job if Mangini gets shit-canned.
The roster was a joke. And Cleveland is not exactly the most desirable NFL city to set up shop. Any three of those guys can sit in studio jobs until the perfect situation comes around. Like Carolina (Cowher) or Jacksonville (Gruden). Shanahan is getting paid a ton NOT to coach! He has a tremendous ego, but he's also smart enough to realize he's got a clearer path in Washington in a city more suitable to his tastes.
Nobody who has options is going to select THIS Job.
It was Mangini or a first-time head coach who wasn't a hot candidate (like Crennel) or a college guy. And we aren't talking Urban Meyer.
Urban Meyer would be a terrible pro coach. All he does is run the spread offense with mobile-like QB's (Alex Smith at Utah, Chris Leak & Tebow at Florida) and that type of play doesnt work in the NFL, as the "Michael Vick experiment" has demonstrated.
Urban Meyer would be a terrible pro coach. All he does is run the spread offense with mobile-like QB's (Alex Smith at Utah, Chris Leak & Tebow at Florida) and that type of play doesnt work in the NFL, as the "Michael Vick experiment" has demonstrated.
Don't know. Meyer has used the spread because he knows it works in college. Can't argue with his success. He does a great job within it of creating mismatches.
I doubt he'd try to bring the spread to the NFL. I think he's an innovative enough guy that he'd still find ways to exploit mismatches within pro-style offenses.
They guy is a winner with local roots. I'd take a chance on him if he gets bored of winning national titles.
-
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
That argument is such a cop out. Let me say this loudly. THE BROWNS DO NOT HAVE A TALENT PROBLEM. They have a congruence problem. The difference in talent from the top team in the league to the bottom team in the league is negligible at best. Now, some teams have excesses in talent in particular places... and that can make a big difference. But, when measuring NFL teams one to another, overall talent is rarely the deciding factor. The number 1 separator of NFL teams is congruence. Does the scheme match the coaching, match the players, match the environment? That is congruence. Right now, the Browns are failing in all four facets.
So much of football is "want-to". How much do you want it? How hard are you playing? How much are you giving? And if there is dissonance between the scheme and the players skills, it hurts the "want-to". If there is dissonance between the coach's style and the player's psyche, it hurts the "want-to". Every ounce of dissent and disagreement between a coach and a player, a scheme and a player takes up space in the psyche. It compromises focus, slows reactions, and limit's the players "want-to".
Did you ever notice when the Pittsburgh Steelers play defense, how much fun it looks like their having? It's because they are. What they're being asked to do matches their desire to do it. It "fits". You get yourself a bunch of big badasses and borderline criminals who like to push people around, and let them play downhill and punch people in the mouth. It works. It fits. And interestingly, they don't miss in the draft too often. Why do you suppose that is? It's because they know what they're looking for. They're out at the college games looking for "Steelers". They're not looking at stopwatches, they're not looking for a safety, they're not looking for a guard... they're looking for Steelers. And they've been looking for they same guys for 40 years, and they're damn good at it.
The Browns, on the other hand, don't know what they are. Mangini seems to know what he is... but he might be the only one. No one else can seem to get a read on the guy. You go try to do your job at 100% when you're trying to figure out if your boss's boss is plotting to get rid of you. It's tough. Try to do your job when you don't understand it and you don't know why your being asked to do it... then measure your effort.
Eric Mangini is a whiz kid. He's a football scientist of the first (OK maybe second) order. The problem is, most football players are not. There aren't a lot of 1520 SAT's on the field on Sunday afternoon. (Ok, I know they don't use the 1600 pt scale anymore, but you know what I mean). So what you end up with is a football team comprised of players that lack the cognitive skill to function within the system they're being given. It's incongruous. It's like asking a group of politicians to balance a checkbook. Oh they can do it, but it's going to be wrong half the time -- and when it isn't, it's going to take way too long. It's just not what they're good at. They've got the wrong skills.
Eric Mangini was hired because he has a vision of how to build a winning franchise. And to Randy Lerner's credit, that is a solution to a team that has no identity of its own. Mangini sold him on the idea that "... this is what a Cleveland Brown will be..." It's a hypothetical based on the implementation of Mangini's system. And he might be right. But there is no way on heaven or on earth that he's going to achieve his vision with this roster. And it's not because they "lack talent". It's because it's not a fit.
Since 1999, the Browns have had only 2 types of coaches, replicators and pacifiers. Romeo Crennell and Chris Palmer were the latter, Davis and Mangini the former. Davis was a Jimmy Johnson clone, and a poor one at that. Mangini, of course, is a Belichick disciple. Crennell parlayed his role as the insulation between Coach Parcells and the players into his grandpa Ro' role with the Browns. You can do some things that way, but in the mid-run (something sooner than the long run), that lovey-dovey coaching style will lead to an overall lack of intensity. Palmer was a pacifier, but he just pacified ownership, the fans, and anyone else who knew less football than he did. Plus, Chris is a coach, he's not a politician. He should've never been put in that role. But that's another story.
In 2009, the Browns have two problems (really several, but there are two big ones): The Browns have settled on Eric Mangini, who brings with him a system that does not suit more than half of the guys on this roster.... way more than half. This is compounded by problem #2 which is that Mangini's system isn't a fit for 80% or 90% of the guys in the league. It takes a special group of players to pull it off. It's hard enough when you have a replicated philosophy, but when you have one with such unique demands, the pool of appropriate players shrivels up pretty rapidly.
Put it this way, the Patriots have gone through a decade of trial and error to find guys who can play their system. Their biggest success seems to be in finding 8-9 year vets to come in and contribute for 1 or 2 years before they call it a career. Why do you suppose that is? Because guys that have been in the league for a long time find it easier to assimilate the complexities of the Patriot system. They're already pros. But it takes a lot of trial and error to find those guys. Last I checked there were only 3 or 4 guys left from that first championship team on the current roster. They have to keep shuttling guys in and out to make it work. And it's hard to weed through all that.
So, let's agree that the Patriots have been patient and masterful at finding "Patriot-type guys" in the league. OK, now add a Browns roster and a Chiefs and a Broncos roster that are looking for the same "guys". You just went from 53 guys to 212 (not counting the practice squads). It's quite possible that the Patriots have demonstrated over the last 10 years that there may not be 200 "patriot-type" guys in the NFL in any given year... There may not be 100. Which means, you're going to have to make some. And that is going to take time... and lots of it.
Now I'll listen to the argument that says, don't implement the system at the ground floor if you don't have at least a functional roster. But I'll probably disagree. The other argument is you force the system, take your lumps, then clear out the guys who don't fit. That also has it's merits.. but my God is it ugly on the front end. Mangini had some early success with the Jets by installing a hybrid of his system to more closely match the players he had. But compensating for guys that didn't fit, ended up extending the growing pains though 2008. Midway through 2008 that Jets team was still evolving into what Mangini wanted them to be. By that time he'd compromised his vision so far that it nearly imploded on itself. He didn't know what to do with the guys he had, and they didn't know what to do for him. He wasn't about to make that mistake again. He's not about to compromise how he wants something done to suit the talent of the players he has. They will fit him, or he'll do without. The downside is, it looks idiotic on the surface... and beyond that, of course, it may not work.
So here you are. You're witnessing the demolition of a team. And it probably has to be done. The worst part is it's like watching someone tear down your childhood home. Even if you knew they were going to build a beautiful new one on the same spot, it still hurts to watch them tear it apart. Add to that that you have no idea whether or not Mangini's plan will ever come to fruition, and you've got cause for alarm. I'd love to tell you that it will all be alright. But I can't say that. I can say that if it does work, it won't come easy. And there may be 2 or 3 seasons in row that are kinda like this one.
Anyway, the point of all this is, don't hang it all on the players, on Phil Savage, on Randy Lerner... there's plenty of blame to go around. Some of these guys will work out here. Most of them won't. Many will find some success somewhere else. But as much as it feels good to point to one thing and say, "there, that's the source of my pain." It's just not that easy. It, as "it" always seems to be, is more complicated than that.
-jj
So much of football is "want-to". How much do you want it? How hard are you playing? How much are you giving? And if there is dissonance between the scheme and the players skills, it hurts the "want-to". If there is dissonance between the coach's style and the player's psyche, it hurts the "want-to". Every ounce of dissent and disagreement between a coach and a player, a scheme and a player takes up space in the psyche. It compromises focus, slows reactions, and limit's the players "want-to".
My sister, her husband and her kids all play tennis. They're damned good at it. She's also coached tennis successfully. When we were watching the Browns in the first quarter of Sunday's game, her comment was, "They haven't decided they want to win." She said it's the same with any athlete. You can THINK you want to win, but until you decide that you are GOING to win and that you want it more than anything else, it's not going to happen. I think it's the same "want-to" that you're talking about. You can see it in the players' eyes and in their demeanor. I used to say that Kosar, in his last couple of seasons, didn't display the "want-to" until one possession too late in the game.
I want a team that has this desire from the moment they step on the field. It's not there with this team. Cribbs has it. The defense sometimes has it. But as a whole, I agree this is one big thing that's lacking.
-
Eric Mangini was hired because he has a vision of how to build a winning franchise. And to Randy Lerner's credit, that is a solution to a team that has no identity of its own. Mangini sold him on the idea that "... this is what a Cleveland Brown will be..." It's a hypothetical based on the implementation of Mangini's system. And he might be right. But there is no way on heaven or on earth that he's going to achieve his vision with this roster. And it's not because they "lack talent". It's because it's not a fit.
Correction here: Mangini was not hired because of his "Vision", he was hired because he and Randy were buddies back in the 90's when Mangini was a ballboy here and Randy's dad Al had close ties to Modell. Randy hung around the team a lot during those years and grew a tight relationship with Mangini. How else can anyone explain a more ridiculous hire than this? I have some relationships with people in the know and this story has been confirmed by multiple sources. It may be speculation, but it's pretty solid speculation.
Do me a favor - look at our coaching staff. Outside of Ryan, Bryan Cox and Brad Seely these guys are a bunch of buffoons. For example, look at this guy:
Andy Dickerson
Quality control/defense; born January 29, 1982, Wilmington, Del. Offensive lineman Tufts 1999-2002. No pro playing experience. College coach: Tufts 2003. Pro coach: New York Jets 2006-2008, joined Browns in 2009.
An offensive lineman for powerful Tufts. It doesn't list his 'intership' with NE in 2004-2005, but come on - THIS is the quality we have on our coaching staff? How does an OL for the TUFTS JUMBOS (yes - their nickname is the freakin' JUMBOS - with colors of light blue and brown they look like fairy-boys) become a defensive coach for us?
Lerner is a moron and every single move he has made lately is financial. This coaching staff probably makes less than the guys playing sax on the corner by the stadium....
F'IN PITIFUL.....
Tufts.
Are you kidding me?
I wouldn't play for this group of coaches either.
Gooooooo Jumbos!
Correction here: Mangini was not hired because of his "Vision", he was hired because he and Randy were buddies back in the 90's when Mangini was a ballboy here and Randy's dad Al had close ties to Modell. Randy hung around the team a lot during those years and grew a tight relationship with Mangini. How else can anyone explain a more ridiculous hire than this? I have some relationships with people in the know and this story has been confirmed by multiple sources. It may be speculation, but it's pretty solid speculation.
Do me a favor - look at our coaching staff. Outside of Ryan, Bryan Cox and Brad Seely these guys are a bunch of buffoons. For example, look at this guy:
Andy Dickerson
Quality control/defense; born January 29, 1982, Wilmington, Del. Offensive lineman Tufts 1999-2002. No pro playing experience. College coach: Tufts 2003. Pro coach: New York Jets 2006-2008, joined Browns in 2009.
An offensive lineman for powerful Tufts. It doesn't list his 'intership' with NE in 2004-2005, but come on - THIS is the quality we have on our coaching staff? How does an OL for the TUFTS JUMBOS (yes - their nickname is the freakin' JUMBOS - with colors of light blue and brown they look like fairy-boys) become a defensive coach for us?
Lerner is a moron and every single move he has made lately is financial. This coaching staff probably makes less than the guys playing sax on the corner by the stadium....
F'IN PITIFUL.....
Tufts.
Are you kidding me?
I wouldn't play for this group of coaches either.
Gooooooo Jumbos!
Yeah, that'd be like Ted Marchibroda taking on an assistant who was a center at Wesleyan University in Connecticut... Wesleyan! Gooo Cardinals!! What the hell does that have to do with anything? Because a guy went to a small school he can't be a football coach?
-jj
-
@ JJ....you say............"In 2009, the Browns have two problems (really several, but there are two big ones): The Browns have settled on Eric Mangini, who brings with him a system that does not suit more than half of the guys on this roster.... way more than half. This is compounded by problem #2 which is that Mangini's system isn't a fit for 80% or 90% of the guys in the league. It takes a special group of players to pull it off. It's hard enough when you have a replicated philosophy, but when you have one with such unique demands, the pool of appropriate players shrivels up pretty rapidly....."
I agree we settled on Mangini and thats the problem and 2, I believe and always have that if you are a good coach you adapt your 'system" around your players strengths....a fluid system that accentuates your strengths and disguises your weakness'....NOT "this is my system " I'm right, If you can't play in it you are gone mentality....we've seen it before in Cleveland...ala 180 pound metcalf up the middle....we should have been scheming plays around metcalf's strengths not making metcalf conform to the scheme....many many many examples such as this but MY SYSTEM is the only way to go bullshit is egomaniacal and a horrible way to coach IMO....Especially in the beginning and even when your vision is in place....water is stronger than rock!
@ JJ....you say............"In 2009, the Browns have two problems (really several, but there are two big ones): The Browns have settled on Eric Mangini, who brings with him a system that does not suit more than half of the guys on this roster.... way more than half. This is compounded by problem #2 which is that Mangini's system isn't a fit for 80% or 90% of the guys in the league. It takes a special group of players to pull it off. It's hard enough when you have a replicated philosophy, but when you have one with such unique demands, the pool of appropriate players shrivels up pretty rapidly....."
I agree we settled on Mangini and thats the problem and 2, I believe and always have that if you are a good coach you adapt your 'system" around your players strengths....a fluid system that accentuates your strengths and disguises your weakness'....NOT "this is my system " I'm right, If you can't play in it you are gone mentality....we've seen it before in Cleveland...ala 180 pound metcalf up the middle....we should have been scheming plays around metcalf's strengths not making metcalf conform to the scheme....many many many examples such as this but MY SYSTEM is the only way to go bullshit is egomaniacal and a horrible way to coach IMO....Especially in the beginning and even when your vision is in place....water is stronger than rock!
I think that philosophy is ideal... but it never seems to work. Instead, you have these points in time where all the stars line up, and bang! it works. Generally, when an organization has success over the long term it goes through a purging and rebuilding process. It happened with the 49ers in the 80's. Dallas in the late 80's early 90's, and in New England in the mid 90's. Remember though, Belichick didn't exactly go through something like that. Instead, he went to a team that still had the old frames and girders that Parcells left when he conjured up an AFC champion out of thin air.
The constant massaging of a system to fit the players is a pretty hit and miss endeavor. Pittsburgh tried it when it went to the "slash" package in the mid-90's. It almost worked, but it led to the only prolonged downturn in the franchise's recent history... although I supposed "prolonged" must be identified as a relative term when discussing it among Browns fans.
I fall on the side of the fence that says that the system prescribes who you are... rather than describes who you are. But, like I said, both approaches have merit.
-jj
-
Good post, I agree. Gaines was a nice addition (one game opinion). Give this team one off season. Between the draft, unsigned free agents and free agency we can become much more competitive and stop embarrassing everyone. After the second off season we could have a good team that could be a winner. It will be two or three seasons for this team to be in the playoffs unless they get lucky that some people play unexpectedly well next year
-
>>
Yeah but we needed picks and he was the only guy with trade value. His talent was useless here without a team around him to compliment him. And Braylon, he NEVER would have played for this team and also, he's not exactly awesome in NY right now.
>>
He drafted two WRs that will need at least a full year to develope. He also brought in a few vets, Furry and Patten.
>> >>
As long as you have two bad QBs, you will have a QB controversy. He didn't draft either of them. And they had no trade value to begin with, which is why they were never traded.
>>
Considering how many picks we got that we didn't have before, and how well Mack is playing, it was the right move.
And I can still say Chud was bad. What I can't say yet is if Daboll is bad. Remember Bruce Arians? Yeah, he SUCKED when he was here and now look at him. You need players of you are going to call plays.
>> Joe thomas and Cribbs talent are wasted in this team too ... but that dont we trade them away for draft picks. We need to build around talent and KW2 could catch the ball. how many WR's/TE's are catching the balls now ?
>> The vets are not performing now and there is no guarantee the rookie WR's could perform well in the future. so we could still get over this year with nothing gained @ WR position.
>> He did not draft either but surely it is not difficult to make a choice and go with it from the beginning. And what is the purpose of having Ratliff here ?
>> How many picks look convincing ? How many picks are even the answer to the holes we had ?
>> Joe thomas and Cribbs talent are wasted in this team too ... but that dont we trade them away for draft picks. We need to build around talent and KW2 could catch the ball. how many WR's/TE's are catching the balls now ?
I know it was a rhetorical question but, a TE is easier to play without than a LT. And Cribbs is one in a million type of guy and player. Neither are expendable.
-
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
This team is talentless. Thomas, Stienbach, Mack, Rogers, Cribbs. Outside of that, we not only have no talent, we don't have many NFL caliber players at all.
Outside of those 5 guys, not ONE player beat their guy on a single play yesterday. We are totally outmatched by every team in the league outside of Oakland and maybe KC. I don't know how Mangini is gonna do it this off-season but he is going to have to replace 30-40 players in a hurry. This team is a joke. Davis, Savage, RAC....F-YOU!!!
There is just no way you can scheme, coach, or gameplan with these players. You cannot ask them to do anything above fundamental football and expect any success. They are bad, really bad. It has got to be embarresing for the coaches knowing that each week another team is watching film on us getting prepared and seeing everything this team doesn't have.
We can't blame the coaches anymore. If you watch these players they are just getting beat on a down-by-down basis. Each and every one of them. Wimbley had Grant wrapped up with both arms and Grant just slipped out like he was coated in vaseline. How in the hell, at this level, do you let that happen? That is a microcosm of what this team doesn't do. Wright got punked again on TV. How many players do you think get punked every week like that guy does and have a job still? Is that coaching? Nope, is that scheme? Nope. Is that gameplan? Nope. That is what it looks like when you put bad players on the field in this league. Its a goddamned joke. I like DA but he looked like crap yesterday. He came out 5/5 and guys were catching it and then, he started forcing balls and leading defenders to his target before throwing it. That is not a coaching issue, they don't coach him to do that, thats not part of the gameplan, that is just a dumb QB.
My friend is a 10th grade English teacher and she said something once that applies here. She said that by the time students get to her they are way behind where they should be. So she has to go back and re-teach 7th grade material before she can even start the 10th grade material. I think that is where this team is right now. The difference is, this is the NFL and so you don't get time to coach up crappy players who are 2-5 years in the league, you just release them. And a lot of guys need to be gone.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
This team has had the talent. It has had the draft picks. It has had every opportunity to turn this ship around. I lay the blame on the coaching staffs that have been here and their lack of forsight, ability to get players to step up (how many go to other teams and do well?) and a lack of knowledge in the head coach position. I thought that had changed with Mangini since he was the first coach of the browns in decades to have any experience, but I was way wrong. Mangini is almost worse than any coach you have had. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but Mangini created your QB problem. All he had to do was make a decision and go with one QB, stick with him and give him the team and the coaches respect. He never did that with either QB and this only tore up the little bit of team chemistry you had going and has the QB constantly looking over his shoulder. Not to mention the fact that he traded away some of the best talent on the team.
-
Correction here: Mangini was not hired because of his "Vision", he was hired because he and Randy were buddies back in the 90's when Mangini was a ballboy here and Randy's dad Al had close ties to Modell. Randy hung around the team a lot during those years and grew a tight relationship with Mangini. How else can anyone explain a more ridiculous hire than this? I have some relationships with people in the know and this story has been confirmed by multiple sources. It may be speculation, but it's pretty solid speculation.
Do me a favor - look at our coaching staff. Outside of Ryan, Bryan Cox and Brad Seely these guys are a bunch of buffoons. For example, look at this guy:
Andy Dickerson
Quality control/defense; born January 29, 1982, Wilmington, Del. Offensive lineman Tufts 1999-2002. No pro playing experience. College coach: Tufts 2003. Pro coach: New York Jets 2006-2008, joined Browns in 2009.
An offensive lineman for powerful Tufts. It doesn't list his 'intership' with NE in 2004-2005, but come on - THIS is the quality we have on our coaching staff? How does an OL for the TUFTS JUMBOS (yes - their nickname is the freakin' JUMBOS - with colors of light blue and brown they look like fairy-boys) become a defensive coach for us?
Lerner is a moron and every single move he has made lately is financial. This coaching staff probably makes less than the guys playing sax on the corner by the stadium....
F'IN PITIFUL.....
Tufts.
Are you kidding me?
I wouldn't play for this group of coaches either.
Gooooooo Jumbos!
Yeah, that'd be like Ted Marchibroda taking on an assistant who was a center at Wesleyan University in Connecticut... Wesleyan! Gooo Cardinals!! What the hell does that have to do with anything? Because a guy went to a small school he can't be a football coach?
-jj
Yeah, that'd be like Ted Marchibroda taking on an assistant who was a center at Wesleyan University in Connecticut... Wesleyan! Gooo Cardinals!! What the hell does that have to do with anything? Because a guy went to a small school he can't be a football coach?
-jj
Fair enough. But my point isn't that he's from a small school, it's that he doesn't belong in the position he is in. And comparing Manini to Marchibroda is ludicrous.
I have a beef with this tool in particular because I sat in front of the home coaches box yesterday and had enough by the beginning of the 4th quarter. So I turned around and laid into the coaches box. From the play calling to the lack of preparedness to the unemotional and uninspired play, it is a reflection of the coaches. Correct me if you think differently, but as I vented I fully expected the coaches box to maintain their focus on the game and not look down at me. But this coach decides to look down with a full faced smile and tilt his head from side to side like a clown. Shouldn't he be more interested in the game than me?
I may have been voistrous, but never vulgar. If I had been security would have kicked my butt out. Instead, everyone in the section was cheering along with me. Jim Donovan gave me a thumbs-up and Diek mentioned my voistrous displeasure in the radio broadcast. As I exited security guards and fans alike were giving me high-fives because they're all as fed up as I am.
He is supposed to be a coach. As well as another 'coach' in the third row of their box who scratched his head like a monkey as he looked down to me. I couldn't find him on the asst coaches tab so he might just be a coffee-getter so I'll let him go. But the other guy was sitting up front with headset on and all and he's paying attention to me? Come on - he SHOULD have more important things to pay attention to. Like his players and how to get the most out of them...
My true fear is that the Belichek tree is thinning and Mangini can only scrape up what remnants are left to piece together a staff. There are very few with decent credentials.
CHANGE IS GOOD -
I agree we settled on Mangini and thats the problem ......
I think a lot of you people are delusional who think Gruden or Shanahan or Cowher were lining up to take this job or will line up to take this job if Mangini gets shit-canned.
The roster was a joke. And Cleveland is not exactly the most desirable NFL city to set up shop. Any three of those guys can sit in studio jobs until the perfect situation comes around. Like Carolina (Cowher) or Jacksonville (Gruden). Shanahan is getting paid a ton NOT to coach! He has a tremendous ego, but he's also smart enough to realize he's got a clearer path in Washington in a city more suitable to his tastes.
Nobody who has options is going to select THIS Job.
It was Mangini or a first-time head coach who wasn't a hot candidate (like Crennel) or a college guy. And we aren't talking Urban Meyer.
I think a lot of you people are delusional who think Gruden or Shanahan or Cowher were lining up to take this job or will line up to take this job if Mangini gets shit-canned.
The roster was a joke. And Cleveland is not exactly the most desirable NFL city to set up shop. Any three of those guys can sit in studio jobs until the perfect situation comes around. Like Carolina (Cowher) or Jacksonville (Gruden). Shanahan is getting paid a ton NOT to coach! He has a tremendous ego, but he's also smart enough to realize he's got a clearer path in Washington in a city more suitable to his tastes.
Nobody who has options is going to select THIS Job.
It was Mangini or a first-time head coach who wasn't a hot candidate (like Crennel) or a college guy. And we aren't talking Urban Meyer.
Why do we need only Gruden or Shanahan or Cowher ? How many head coaching jobs are there in the NFL ? Trust me we are not as bad as we assume ourselves to be. And many will queue up for the jobs. We just need to be patient enough to interview ALL OF THEM before making a decision.
-
Yeah, that'd be like Ted Marchibroda taking on an assistant who was a center at Wesleyan University in Connecticut... Wesleyan! Gooo Cardinals!! What the hell does that have to do with anything? Because a guy went to a small school he can't be a football coach?
-jj
Fair enough. But my point isn't that he's from a small school, it's that he doesn't belong in the position he is in. And comparing Manini to Marchibroda is ludicrous.
I have a beef with this tool in particular because I sat in front of the home coaches box yesterday and had enough by the beginning of the 4th quarter. So I turned around and laid into the coaches box. From the play calling to the lack of preparedness to the unemotional and uninspired play, it is a reflection of the coaches. Correct me if you think differently, but as I vented I fully expected the coaches box to maintain their focus on the game and not look down at me. But this coach decides to look down with a full faced smile and tilt his head from side to side like a clown. Shouldn't he be more interested in the game than me?
I may have been voistrous, but never vulgar. If I had been security would have kicked my butt out. Instead, everyone in the section was cheering along with me. Jim Donovan gave me a thumbs-up and Diek mentioned my voistrous displeasure in the radio broadcast. As I exited security guards and fans alike were giving me high-fives because they're all as fed up as I am.
He is supposed to be a coach. As well as another 'coach' in the third row of their box who scratched his head like a monkey as he looked down to me. I couldn't find him on the asst coaches tab so he might just be a coffee-getter so I'll let him go. But the other guy was sitting up front with headset on and all and he's paying attention to me? Come on - he SHOULD have more important things to pay attention to. Like his players and how to get the most out of them...
My true fear is that the Belichek tree is thinning and Mangini can only scrape up what remnants are left to piece together a staff. There are very few with decent credentials.
My true fear is that the Belichek tree is thinning and Mangini can only scrape up what remnants are left to piece together a staff. There are very few with decent credentials.
There is no tree .... HE is a lone guy who managed to achieve success by putting his system in place and that is something no body else has succeeded in. The one man who seems to have succeed as his pupil Josh McDaniels has nothing in common with BB. HE gets excited, shows passion and does not get overly secretive.
-
Still believe it is talent despite some good arguments.
If you have 4th and 1 what play can you call and KNOW that the offensive line will create a hole to get that yard? There is no play because the O line cannot knock people off the line of scrimmage. Lack of talent
If you have 3rd and 10 what passing play are you going to call and KNOW that you will pick it up? There isn't one because the receivers do not get open dependably and the QBs may not get them the ball. Lack of talent at QB and experience (I hope) in the case of wide receivers
If you have 3rd and 5 what play do you run and have a high percentage chance of obtaining that first down? There isn't one Lack of talent
Who can you throw the ball to and know that he will come up with the reception if you get the ball close? Nobody Lack of Talent and experience
On defense players are in position to make plays and they are missing tackles after receptions. Our defensive backs (CBs and Safeties) lack the physical ability or toughness to make tackles on running backs and anyone else except a QB. Lack of talent and toughness
We do not get dependable pressure on the QB although there has been significant improvement this year Lack of talent but we have improved
Tackling by linebackers is a problem. They are often in position to make plays and simply cannot make the tackle or make it far down field. Lack of talent Coaching could be partly responsible for them making tackles too far down field
If the players cannot execute the simple fundamentals of blocking (knocking their guy off the ball), passing, catching, tackling you don't have much chance. We need football players that absolutely hate to lose and coaches that absolutely hate to lose. I know mangini hates to lose and if any of his assistants don't feel the same way they will be canned.
-
Yeah, that'd be like Ted Marchibroda taking on an assistant who was a center at Wesleyan University in Connecticut... Wesleyan! Gooo Cardinals!! What the hell does that have to do with anything? Because a guy went to a small school he can't be a football coach?
-jj
Fair enough. But my point isn't that he's from a small school, it's that he doesn't belong in the position he is in. And comparing Manini to Marchibroda is ludicrous.
I have a beef with this tool in particular because I sat in front of the home coaches box yesterday and had enough by the beginning of the 4th quarter. So I turned around and laid into the coaches box. From the play calling to the lack of preparedness to the unemotional and uninspired play, it is a reflection of the coaches. Correct me if you think differently, but as I vented I fully expected the coaches box to maintain their focus on the game and not look down at me. But this coach decides to look down with a full faced smile and tilt his head from side to side like a clown. Shouldn't he be more interested in the game than me?
I may have been voistrous, but never vulgar. If I had been security would have kicked my butt out. Instead, everyone in the section was cheering along with me. Jim Donovan gave me a thumbs-up and Diek mentioned my voistrous displeasure in the radio broadcast. As I exited security guards and fans alike were giving me high-fives because they're all as fed up as I am.
He is supposed to be a coach. As well as another 'coach' in the third row of their box who scratched his head like a monkey as he looked down to me. I couldn't find him on the asst coaches tab so he might just be a coffee-getter so I'll let him go. But the other guy was sitting up front with headset on and all and he's paying attention to me? Come on - he SHOULD have more important things to pay attention to. Like his players and how to get the most out of them...
My true fear is that the Belichek tree is thinning and Mangini can only scrape up what remnants are left to piece together a staff. There are very few with decent credentials.
Fair enough. But my point isn't that he's from a small school, it's that he doesn't belong in the position he is in. And comparing Manini to Marchibroda is ludicrous.
I have a beef with this tool in particular because I sat in front of the home coaches box yesterday and had enough by the beginning of the 4th quarter. So I turned around and laid into the coaches box. From the play calling to the lack of preparedness to the unemotional and uninspired play, it is a reflection of the coaches. Correct me if you think differently, but as I vented I fully expected the coaches box to maintain their focus on the game and not look down at me. But this coach decides to look down with a full faced smile and tilt his head from side to side like a clown. Shouldn't he be more interested in the game than me?
I may have been voistrous, but never vulgar. If I had been security would have kicked my butt out. Instead, everyone in the section was cheering along with me. Jim Donovan gave me a thumbs-up and Diek mentioned my voistrous displeasure in the radio broadcast. As I exited security guards and fans alike were giving me high-fives because they're all as fed up as I am.
He is supposed to be a coach. As well as another 'coach' in the third row of their box who scratched his head like a monkey as he looked down to me. I couldn't find him on the asst coaches tab so he might just be a coffee-getter so I'll let him go. But the other guy was sitting up front with headset on and all and he's paying attention to me? Come on - he SHOULD have more important things to pay attention to. Like his players and how to get the most out of them...
My true fear is that the Belichek tree is thinning and Mangini can only scrape up what remnants are left to piece together a staff. There are very few with decent credentials.
In fairness, I wasn't comparing Marchibroda to Mangini. I was comparing Bill Belichik to Andy Dickerson... which is twice as preposterous. My point being coaches come from all over. And great players rarely make great coaches. It's just a different skill set.
And, should they be more concerned about other things? Probably. But when you're getting your ass handed to you, you were probably a welcome diversion. I've been in that box before (well, not that box, but the coaching box). When you're getting mauled like that, it's all you can do to maintain your sanity. A bit of levity is probably a good thing. At least they weren't flinging themselves out the windows or punching each other. But that kind of thing usually only happens when the coordinators are upstairs.
The Browns have one of those situations where the OC and DC are on the sideline and the assistants are upstairs. Some guys like it the other way. In the Browns case they've got a couple of special assistants, I'm sure, and a few pro personnel people. And that's probably about it. They run the field like an officiating crew, each guy with a different set of responsibilities usually by position or area. They are information retrievers not game-planners or decision-makers. So, your rant while it may have some substance, is misdirected. It be like running into a Chevrolet dealership and berating the guy because your GM stock is in the tank. He doesn't have anything to do with it. He just works there.
Regardless, as far as they're concerned, you have no idea what you're talking about. Actually, they don't even hear what you're saying. Coaches are funny that way. They don't take criticism from non-coaches. They just sort of block it out. I don't say that for effect. They're really not hearing your words. They just know that there's a crazy guy yelling at them. It's the same thing you would do if someone stood outside your office window yelling about what a lousy job you were doing. You could easily make faces out the window and still do your job... probably.
Coaching is a job. Fans don't always get that. The fans live their lives, build up their own stresses and get all wound up until Sunday afternoon, and go crazy for their team. For the guys in the booth, this is the last 3 hours of a 70 or 80 hour work week. To them football is a process, not an event. Fans have this opinion that coaches should be these hyper-intense stress factories squeezing bits of coal into diamonds on every 3rd and 4, when actually it's a lot more systematic than that... especially among low level assistants, scouts, and spotters. Let's be realistic here... they play a game for a living. They basically move playing pieces around a board for a few hours every Sunday... after practicing it over and over again all week. It's like being a professional Risk player. There's just not nearly as much stress in the coaching booth as there is in the stands. And when you're getting beaten like a drum there's even less. If a guy breaks focus in a 31-3 game, I'm pretty sure it won't change the outcome. If he bothered to acknowledge you in a 27-24 game, I'd be surprised.
That's not to say that your opinion's not valid. In fact, I probably agree with you in many respects. But, the coaches assume anyone addressing them about football who isn't wearing a snappy polo with team colors on it is among the 99% of fans who hasn't a clue what goes into putting a prepared football team on the field... especially if they're yelling it through a window. Now, in fairness... you don't have to spend 80 hours a week studying tape to go 1-6 and be lose by 3 touchdowns every week. You could take Wednesday and Thursday off every week and do that. It's the old, "You don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit."
But even so, the fact that they engaged you - albeit mockingly - says nothing to me about them as a person or as a coach.
And to your point of 'scraping up' what's left of the Belichick coaches. There are always new coaches. And you don't really want everyone to have a homogeneous background. So I wouldn't be too worried about that.
-jj
-
Fair enough. But my point isn't that he's from a small school, it's that he doesn't belong in the position he is in. And comparing Manini to Marchibroda is ludicrous.
I have a beef with this tool in particular because I sat in front of the home coaches box yesterday and had enough by the beginning of the 4th quarter. So I turned around and laid into the coaches box. From the play calling to the lack of preparedness to the unemotional and uninspired play, it is a reflection of the coaches. Correct me if you think differently, but as I vented I fully expected the coaches box to maintain their focus on the game and not look down at me. But this coach decides to look down with a full faced smile and tilt his head from side to side like a clown. Shouldn't he be more interested in the game than me?
I may have been voistrous, but never vulgar. If I had been security would have kicked my butt out. Instead, everyone in the section was cheering along with me. Jim Donovan gave me a thumbs-up and Diek mentioned my voistrous displeasure in the radio broadcast. As I exited security guards and fans alike were giving me high-fives because they're all as fed up as I am.
He is supposed to be a coach. As well as another 'coach' in the third row of their box who scratched his head like a monkey as he looked down to me. I couldn't find him on the asst coaches tab so he might just be a coffee-getter so I'll let him go. But the other guy was sitting up front with headset on and all and he's paying attention to me? Come on - he SHOULD have more important things to pay attention to. Like his players and how to get the most out of them...
My true fear is that the Belichek tree is thinning and Mangini can only scrape up what remnants are left to piece together a staff. There are very few with decent credentials.
In fairness, I wasn't comparing Marchibroda to Mangini. I was comparing Bill Belichik to Andy Dickerson... which is twice as preposterous. My point being coaches come from all over. And great players rarely make great coaches. It's just a different skill set.
And, should they be more concerned about other things? Probably. But when you're getting your ass handed to you, you were probably a welcome diversion. I've been in that box before (well, not that box, but the coaching box). When you're getting mauled like that, it's all you can do to maintain your sanity. A bit of levity is probably a good thing. At least they weren't flinging themselves out the windows or punching each other. But that kind of thing usually only happens when the coordinators are upstairs.
The Browns have one of those situations where the OC and DC are on the sideline and the assistants are upstairs. Some guys like it the other way. In the Browns case they've got a couple of special assistants, I'm sure, and a few pro personnel people. And that's probably about it. They run the field like an officiating crew, each guy with a different set of responsibilities usually by position or area. They are information retrievers not game-planners or decision-makers. So, your rant while it may have some substance, is misdirected. It be like running into a Chevrolet dealership and berating the guy because your GM stock is in the tank. He doesn't have anything to do with it. He just works there.
Regardless, as far as they're concerned, you have no idea what you're talking about. Actually, they don't even hear what you're saying. Coaches are funny that way. They don't take criticism from non-coaches. They just sort of block it out. I don't say that for effect. They're really not hearing your words. They just know that there's a crazy guy yelling at them. It's the same thing you would do if someone stood outside your office window yelling about what a lousy job you were doing. You could easily make faces out the window and still do your job... probably.
Coaching is a job. Fans don't always get that. The fans live their lives, build up their own stresses and get all wound up until Sunday afternoon, and go crazy for their team. For the guys in the booth, this is the last 3 hours of a 70 or 80 hour work week. To them football is a process, not an event. Fans have this opinion that coaches should be these hyper-intense stress factories squeezing bits of coal into diamonds on every 3rd and 4, when actually it's a lot more systematic than that... especially among low level assistants, scouts, and spotters. Let's be realistic here... they play a game for a living. They basically move playing pieces around a board for a few hours every Sunday... after practicing it over and over again all week. It's like being a professional Risk player. There's just not nearly as much stress in the coaching booth as there is in the stands. And when you're getting beaten like a drum there's even less. If a guy breaks focus in a 31-3 game, I'm pretty sure it won't change the outcome. If he bothered to acknowledge you in a 27-24 game, I'd be surprised.
That's not to say that your opinion's not valid. In fact, I probably agree with you in many respects. But, the coaches assume anyone addressing them about football who isn't wearing a snappy polo with team colors on it is among the 99% of fans who hasn't a clue what goes into putting a prepared football team on the field... especially if they're yelling it through a window. Now, in fairness... you don't have to spend 80 hours a week studying tape to go 1-6 and be lose by 3 touchdowns every week. You could take Wednesday and Thursday off every week and do that. It's the old, "You don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit."
But even so, the fact that they engaged you - albeit mockingly - says nothing to me about them as a person or as a coach.
And to your point of 'scraping up' what's left of the Belichick coaches. There are always new coaches. And you don't really want everyone to have a homogeneous background. So I wouldn't be too worried about that.
-jj
And to your point of 'scraping up' what's left of the Belichick coaches. There are always new coaches. And you don't really want everyone to have a homogeneous background. So I wouldn't be too worried about that.
-jj
Geez. I wish I could remember the guys name... he wasn't a head coach but wound up as an assistant and was, at least once, considered for a head coaching position. Bill Walsh apparently thought he was one of few people who really grasped the intricacies of the West Coast offense. The guy, a lawyer, contacted somebody with the team (SF 49ers) because he'd once played football, and asked if they could use somebody to play catch with the QBs. He did it on a lark. To his surprise, they found something for him to do. Later, they promoted him to QB coach. He was constantly surprised that they kept giving him jobs, and was fully prepared to go back to a law practice. He just kept moving on up the coaching ladder. I heard this story, in great detail, from the lawyer/coach's best friend.
My point? I agree, there are always new coaches. Furthermore, they can come from anywhere.
-
Fair enough. But my point isn't that he's from a small school, it's that he doesn't belong in the position he is in. And comparing Manini to Marchibroda is ludicrous.
I have a beef with this tool in particular because I sat in front of the home coaches box yesterday and had enough by the beginning of the 4th quarter. So I turned around and laid into the coaches box. From the play calling to the lack of preparedness to the unemotional and uninspired play, it is a reflection of the coaches. Correct me if you think differently, but as I vented I fully expected the coaches box to maintain their focus on the game and not look down at me. But this coach decides to look down with a full faced smile and tilt his head from side to side like a clown. Shouldn't he be more interested in the game than me?
I may have been voistrous, but never vulgar. If I had been security would have kicked my butt out. Instead, everyone in the section was cheering along with me. Jim Donovan gave me a thumbs-up and Diek mentioned my voistrous displeasure in the radio broadcast. As I exited security guards and fans alike were giving me high-fives because they're all as fed up as I am.
He is supposed to be a coach. As well as another 'coach' in the third row of their box who scratched his head like a monkey as he looked down to me. I couldn't find him on the asst coaches tab so he might just be a coffee-getter so I'll let him go. But the other guy was sitting up front with headset on and all and he's paying attention to me? Come on - he SHOULD have more important things to pay attention to. Like his players and how to get the most out of them...
My true fear is that the Belichek tree is thinning and Mangini can only scrape up what remnants are left to piece together a staff. There are very few with decent credentials.
In fairness, I wasn't comparing Marchibroda to Mangini. I was comparing Bill Belichik to Andy Dickerson... which is twice as preposterous. My point being coaches come from all over. And great players rarely make great coaches. It's just a different skill set.
And, should they be more concerned about other things? Probably. But when you're getting your ass handed to you, you were probably a welcome diversion. I've been in that box before (well, not that box, but the coaching box). When you're getting mauled like that, it's all you can do to maintain your sanity. A bit of levity is probably a good thing. At least they weren't flinging themselves out the windows or punching each other. But that kind of thing usually only happens when the coordinators are upstairs.
The Browns have one of those situations where the OC and DC are on the sideline and the assistants are upstairs. Some guys like it the other way. In the Browns case they've got a couple of special assistants, I'm sure, and a few pro personnel people. And that's probably about it. They run the field like an officiating crew, each guy with a different set of responsibilities usually by position or area. They are information retrievers not game-planners or decision-makers. So, your rant while it may have some substance, is misdirected. It be like running into a Chevrolet dealership and berating the guy because your GM stock is in the tank. He doesn't have anything to do with it. He just works there.
Regardless, as far as they're concerned, you have no idea what you're talking about. Actually, they don't even hear what you're saying. Coaches are funny that way. They don't take criticism from non-coaches. They just sort of block it out. I don't say that for effect. They're really not hearing your words. They just know that there's a crazy guy yelling at them. It's the same thing you would do if someone stood outside your office window yelling about what a lousy job you were doing. You could easily make faces out the window and still do your job... probably.
Coaching is a job. Fans don't always get that. The fans live their lives, build up their own stresses and get all wound up until Sunday afternoon, and go crazy for their team. For the guys in the booth, this is the last 3 hours of a 70 or 80 hour work week. To them football is a process, not an event. Fans have this opinion that coaches should be these hyper-intense stress factories squeezing bits of coal into diamonds on every 3rd and 4, when actually it's a lot more systematic than that... especially among low level assistants, scouts, and spotters. Let's be realistic here... they play a game for a living. They basically move playing pieces around a board for a few hours every Sunday... after practicing it over and over again all week. It's like being a professional Risk player. There's just not nearly as much stress in the coaching booth as there is in the stands. And when you're getting beaten like a drum there's even less. If a guy breaks focus in a 31-3 game, I'm pretty sure it won't change the outcome. If he bothered to acknowledge you in a 27-24 game, I'd be surprised.
That's not to say that your opinion's not valid. In fact, I probably agree with you in many respects. But, the coaches assume anyone addressing them about football who isn't wearing a snappy polo with team colors on it is among the 99% of fans who hasn't a clue what goes into putting a prepared football team on the field... especially if they're yelling it through a window. Now, in fairness... you don't have to spend 80 hours a week studying tape to go 1-6 and be lose by 3 touchdowns every week. You could take Wednesday and Thursday off every week and do that. It's the old, "You don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit."
But even so, the fact that they engaged you - albeit mockingly - says nothing to me about them as a person or as a coach.
And to your point of 'scraping up' what's left of the Belichick coaches. There are always new coaches. And you don't really want everyone to have a homogeneous background. So I wouldn't be too worried about that.
-jj
They are information retrievers not game-planners or decision-makers. So, your rant while it may have some substance, is misdirected. It be like running into a Chevrolet dealership and berating the guy because your GM stock is in the tank. He doesn't have anything to do with it. He just works there.
Good points, all. The truth about the rant wasn't necessarily at them, it was more about the lack of focus and uninspired play on the field. I know these guys in the booth aren't decision makers and probably know how to chart things better than actually coach.
But as a fan there are only two areas of the stadium where you can take out frustrations and direct them at those running the team: Sections 309-310 (where I was) in front of the home coaches box and the radio broadcast crew or in sections 125-127 - directly in front of Lerner's loge.
This is why I directed my attention there, and sometimes we as fans need to show more disdain and ferver while at the stadium. We need to show the team and the organization.....and LERNER that what they are doing is unacceptable. Period.
Impact can be made as tonight on the Point After show when Donovan and Dieken made specific mention of my disdain and displeasure as I ranted right in front of their booth. They made points that the fans are growing increasingly upset
It's time to stand up and stand against this ownership regime.
-
i get what you're saying and i agree with you to some extent. however you must look at how those players got here to begin with and THAT is the coaches fault. it is also the coach's fault that they call stupid plays that don't work.
i get what you're saying and i agree with you to some extent. however you must look at how those players got here to begin with and THAT is the coaches fault. it is also the coach's fault that they call stupid plays that don't work.
At a certain point..it's not the playcalling it's the execution of that play.. that's the players.
-
They are information retrievers not game-planners or decision-makers. So, your rant while it may have some substance, is misdirected. It be like running into a Chevrolet dealership and berating the guy because your GM stock is in the tank. He doesn't have anything to do with it. He just works there.
Good points, all. The truth about the rant wasn't necessarily at them, it was more about the lack of focus and uninspired play on the field. I know these guys in the booth aren't decision makers and probably know how to chart things better than actually coach.
But as a fan there are only two areas of the stadium where you can take out frustrations and direct them at those running the team: Sections 309-310 (where I was) in front of the home coaches box and the radio broadcast crew or in sections 125-127 - directly in front of Lerner's loge.
This is why I directed my attention there, and sometimes we as fans need to show more disdain and ferver while at the stadium. We need to show the team and the organization.....and LERNER that what they are doing is unacceptable. Period.
Impact can be made as tonight on the Point After show when Donovan and Dieken made specific mention of my disdain and displeasure as I ranted right in front of their booth. They made points that the fans are growing increasingly upset
It's time to stand up and stand against this ownership regime.
Good points, all. The truth about the rant wasn't necessarily at them, it was more about the lack of focus and uninspired play on the field. I know these guys in the booth aren't decision makers and probably know how to chart things better than actually coach.
But as a fan there are only two areas of the stadium where you can take out frustrations and direct them at those running the team: Sections 309-310 (where I was) in front of the home coaches box and the radio broadcast crew or in sections 125-127 - directly in front of Lerner's loge.
This is why I directed my attention there, and sometimes we as fans need to show more disdain and ferver while at the stadium. We need to show the team and the organization.....and LERNER that what they are doing is unacceptable. Period.
Impact can be made as tonight on the Point After show when Donovan and Dieken made specific mention of my disdain and displeasure as I ranted right in front of their booth. They made points that the fans are growing increasingly upset
It's time to stand up and stand against this ownership regime.
I'm all for passion. The problem is, the only way to impact the owner is to stop showing up. That'll do it. Then stop buying tickets in the offseason. But most fans aren't willing to do that. It speaks highly of Cleveland fans, actually.
Sadly, when you're in a $65 seat, with a $9 beer in your hand, it's hard to tell the owner that he's doing a lousy job. His job is to get you in that seat, and to buy that beer. And he did.
It's a weird place to be. If you don't show up, they threaten to move the team, if you do show up you encourage this level of failure. It's really a no win situation.
-jj
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login