The Worst Coaching Hire Ever?
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I haven't come up with a new word for a while, so I want to throw one out there .. the word is "fanbole" (pronounced FAN-buh-lee).
The definition is simply: A sweeping, exaggerated and often ludicrous sports statement that a fan makes when under the influence of an emotional sports event (and perhaps various substances).
If you see a shortstop make a diving stop and throw out a runner, you might say: "That's the greatest play I have ever seen." That would be a fanbole. It might be the greatest play you ever saw, but it probably isn't. In that moment, it feels that way.
If you see the Kansas City Chiefs give up against the Philadelphia Eagles like they did on Sunday, you might say: "This is the worst football team in the history of the NFL." That too would be a fanbole. The Chiefs are terrible, but they are probably not the worst team in NFL history. Probably not.
You call a player the worst ever, a coach a genius, a general manager an idiot -- these are probably fanboles.
But one of the fun things about a fanbole is that sometimes, after uttering one (or tweeting one), you will find that after you think about it for a while -- hey, you know what? -- you ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT.
I recently tweeted this: "Another one of those fan maybe-overstatement-maybe-not thoughts: Eric Mangini was the worst NFL head coach hire in 25 years."
Now, I'll admit -- that's pure fanbole. I cannot stand what Eric Mangini has done to the Browns, the team of my childhood. I cannot stand the lack of respect he has shown for the team's history, the Mickey Mouse game he plays with quarterbacks, the amazing knack he has for getting his players to not play hard for him or the stupid fines he hands out like he's Principal Vernon from "The Breakfast Club." Don't mess with the bull, young man, you'll get the horns.
But here's the thing: Based on the Twitter responses I've seen ... I'm actually starting to believe that I'm right. I'm actually starting to believe that Mangini really was the worst head coach hire in 25 years. The responses have mostly been to list other coaches who were worse hires than Mangini. But you know what? I don't think any of those hires WERE worse than Mangini. Remember:
1. Mangini had just been fired in New York, where he had done a terrible job. He had a losing record. His team had collapsed down the stretch, he had alienated his players, he was a pain in the neck to deal with. Point is: He'd already PROVEN how much damage he could do as a coach.
2. He came right out of the school of Bill Belichick ... and that didn't work THE FIRST TIME in Cleveland. It seems to me that Cleveland is a working-class town and Browns fans want a working-class coach -- not some pompous know-it-all who doesn't feel like he should have to explain to the commoners what he's doing.
3. What had he ever done to convince anyone he could be a head coach in the first place? Why, because he was a defensive coordinator for the Patriots under Belichick for one season? The Browns had JUST HIRED Romeo Crennel, who was ALSO defensive coordinator under Belichick. Attention Cleveland Browns owners, here's a good hint: BILL BELICHICK IS HIS OWN DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR.
4. Basically the first thing Mangini did -- first thing -- was have them tear down a mural of great Cleveland Browns players on the wall in the Browns offices. Now, there are differing opinions about what really happened, whose fault it really was, does it all matter, etc. You know what? The Cleveland Browns have never been to a Super Bowl. Never. Not one. But Browns fans still have a whole lot of pride. Browns fans grow up on a glorious history. If you allow something stupid like that to happen on your watch ... just a horrendous hire.
Now, here is a partial list of hires Twitter people think were worse than Mangini ... and why I disagree*:
*And remember: I'm talking about WORST HIRES, not necessarily WORST COACHES. Sometimes what seems like a good hire can turn disastrous. And sometimes what seems like a bad hire turns out well. We're talking specifically about the decision to hire Mangini here.
• Art Shell (Oakland): Admittedly this was a dreadful hire ... but there's no way it comes close to Mangini. Shell is a Raiders legend, a Hall of Famer player, who was also the first African American coach in the NFL (well, second, going back to Fritz Pollard in the 1920s). He actually coached the Raiders to three playoff appearances in five years in his first stint. True, when the Raiders hired him the second time he clearly had lost his coaching marbles ... but there's no way that's as bad a hire as Mangini.
• Jim Zorn (Washington): Well ... maybe. The whole process of hiring Zorn was nutty, and it's pretty clear he was overmatched. But Jim Zorn was a fine and fun quarterback, so at least he had that going for him. Plus he had not just been fired as a head coach.
• Bobby Petrino (Atlanta): This turned out to be a disastrous hire ... but I don't think it was considered bad at the time. Petrino was one of the hottest names in college football.
• Raheem Morris (Tampa Bay): Whew, yeah, that's a bad hire. But, again, at least he was hired from within and he had not just been canned.
• Steve Spurrier (Washington): No way. Not even close. Spurrier turned out to be a horrible NFL coach, but the hire itself was exciting and had every chance to work. NFL teams were falling over each other to hire Spurrier as a head coach. This isn't even in the same ballpark as the Mangini hire.
• Tom Cable (Oakland): The Raiders should have their own category when it comes to terrible NFL coach hires. But even this hire to me is not as insulting and infuriating as the Mangini hire. I mean, everyone in New York -- players, fans, media members, everyone -- DESPISED Mangini. I mean, I'm still wondering who in New York Mangini could have put down as a reference.
• Rich Kotite (New York Jets): Well, this hire has many of the same problems as the Mangini hire -- Kotite had just been canned, nobody liked him, and so on. But at least Kotite was a New Yorker who had played in the NFL and he had a winning record as a coach. This WAS bad ... I think Mangini was worse.
• Scott Linehan (St. Louis): Bad hire, of course, but he was a longtime assistant coach who had success in various other places. He'd coached in high school, in college, he was offensive coordinator for the Vikings and Dolphins. I don't think the hire itself compares to Mangini, though I certainly feel the Rams fans pain of having to endure two and a half seasons with him as coach.
• Marty Mornhinweg (Detroit): He was considered a bright young coordinator when the Lions hired him -- and he's offensive coordinator for the Eagles now. Plus, he lasted two years with the Lions (long enough to elect to kick off in overtime). I really don't think Mangini will last the season.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...l#ixzz0W5KstHIZ
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You call a player the worst ever, a coach a genius, a general manager an idiot -- these are probably fanboles.
But one of the fun things about a fanbole is that sometimes, after uttering one (or tweeting one), you will find that after you think about it for a while -- hey, you know what? -- you ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT.
I recently tweeted this: "Another one of those fan maybe-overstatement-maybe-not thoughts: Eric Mangini was the worst NFL head coach hire in 25 years."
Now, I'll admit -- that's pure fanbole.
But here's the thing: Based on the Twitter responses I've seen ... I'm actually starting to believe that I'm right. I'm actually starting to believe that Mangini really was the worst head coach hire in 25 years. The responses have mostly been to list other coaches who were worse hires than Mangini. But you know what? I don't think any of those hires WERE worse than Mangini. Remember:
1. Mangini had just been fired in New York, where he had done a terrible job. He had a losing record.
I couldn't get past #1 if we're gonna assassinate the guy's ability. NY made the playoffs in his 1st year so they had a winning record. And then in his 3rd season there, they won 10 games. Point I'm making is this guy WON every season he had a GOOD starting QB that was also healthy.
If I look at the Bill Belichick that we once couldn't wait to prematurely conclude could NOT coach - he too was goo EVERY time he had a good QB that was healthy. Vinny went 11-5 the only season he stayed healthy in Cleveland and he beat NE in round 1 of the playoffs. The other 4 years looked alot like our team THIS year. Speaking of BB as a Head Coach, his start in NE did not resemble NFL Utopia untile the day Tom Brady took over a winless team when a has-been QB got injured.
The IRONY for BB and his pupil is that even though they are from the Defensive side of the ball - their defenses didn't mean squat until they had a right talented QB making sure the offense put enough points on the board to collect the Ws.
Coming into the 2009 draft we had depleted depth with a handful of talented players. Usually when something like this unfolds - a fanbase looks forward to alot of draft picks right? How many did Savage leave us with for the 2009 draft? The right answer is 4 draft picks following these 5 guys Savage drafted in 08: (Beau Bell, Martin Rucker, Ahtyba Rubin, Paul Hubbard, and Alex Hall). You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize we didn't have ANY picks before rd 4 in 08. Aside from that, there's really only 2 keepers from that entire draft that we can't call starters on a team with 1 win today.
THIS is where we gotta be careful on claiming Mangin should be fired as a Head Coach without REALLY looking into the attempt to turn a shitty hand into something better. Someone doubled 4 draft picks into 8 for 2009 while adding starters from the Jets D that finished with 10 wins in 08. If anyone wants to pretend they happy with Braylon in Cleveland now that he is gone - fill me in. The Jets are 1-3 since he arrived when they were 3-1 BEFORE he arrived. What did we get for removing the distractions on and off the field? 2 more draft picks for 2010, 1 STs player that rotates in our starting lineup on D and Chansi Stuckey that might still pan out here.
So what else do I have? Let's take a look:
1) Cribbs is playing his best football yet
2) Joe Thomas sutout the following guys: Jared Allen, Antwaan Odoms, James Harrison, and Aaron Schobel.
3) Kam Wimbley is back to sacking the QB the way he did as a rookie and looking better than ever.
4) Alex Mack continues to improve
5) When Rogers is healthy - he's unstoppable. When he's NOT - his young backup is doing a WAY better job on the Apex than we saw in 2008.
6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
7) Jackson was arguably playing his best football in 09.
Are we shooting the RIGHT villain here or does Savage get the same quiet magic carpet ride out of town that Carmen Policy got? The person we need to HOLD accountable for the front office looking like a lost "I Love Lucy" episode is Randy Lerner. Get an experience GM/Pres type in here so Mangini can focus on being the Head Coach we'd hoped he'd be. If he's feeling the need to be MORE than a Head Coach is because of a chaotic environment we can only blame the owner for.
- Tom F.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
This is just the same crap that's been going on all year with that mean ol' national media, which apparently has nothing better to do than to slander poor Eric Mangini.
--Browns picked at the bottom of the power rankings? Nonsense, they've just been keeping their cards close to the vest. To be honest, I'm thinking the team can go 10-6 this year.
--All those stories about alienating players? BS! Players need to know who's boss, and Mangini has shown that he's the man in Cleveland.
--Refusing to name a starter? Who cares? He knows who the starter is. Not letting a QB get the starter's reps only keeps the other teams guessing. Besides, all those media experts who said that the move was "questionable," "counterproductive," or "borderline Retarded" were only upset because they didn't get their story.
And it's only gotten worse. Despite the fact that the team has shown continuous improvement and is this close to breaking through, all those high-and-mighty media people keep sneering down their noses and calling the Browns "dysfunctional" and "inept." You want to know what I call it? Proactive! Sure, they could have held pat and stuck with one QB, but they've said no...we're not going to play like that. When Quinn didn't light it up, they went with Anderson. Then they stuck with him, and now the "experts" are questioning that one too. Which way do you want it, guys? If you're going to rip Mangini for pulling a guy who goes 6-8, you can't turn around and rip him for sticking with a guy who goes 2-17, now can you? It's a little thing called "consistency."
Want more proactive? Most teams would keep their lackey GM around for at least an entire season. Not the Browns. Mangini and Lerner knew they could do better, so they did something about it. Bev from Account Temps is doing a swell job, thank you very much, and that bowl of Bit-o-Honeys she put on the front desk of the office has been a real crowd-pleaser.
So yes, national media and Steeler fans, say what you will about the Browns. Those of us who actually take the time to watch the team know that we're just about to turn the corner. And when we do, we'll laugh in your faces.
Dennis
Seriously, though, anyone who looks at the current state/trajectory of the Browns and sees it as anything less than a colossal cluster that will take at least a couple of years to fix--and that's after overhauling the organization--should go to their local DA's office and have "Do Not Execute" tattooed on their foreheads just to be on the safe side.
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"1. Mangini had just been fired in New York, where he had done a terrible job. He had a losing record. His team had collapsed down the stretch, he had alienated his players, he was a pain in the neck to deal with. Point is: He'd already PROVEN how much damage he could do as a coach.
2. He came right out of the school of Bill Belichick ... and that didn't work THE FIRST TIME in Cleveland. It seems to me that Cleveland is a working-class town and Browns fans want a working-class coach -- not some pompous know-it-all who doesn't feel like he should have to explain to the commoners what he's doing.
3. What had he ever done to convince anyone he could be a head coach in the first place? Why, because he was a defensive coordinator for the Patriots under Belichick for one season? The Browns had JUST HIRED Romeo Crennel, who was ALSO defensive coordinator under Belichick. Attention Cleveland Browns owners, here's a good hint: BILL BELICHICK IS HIS OWN DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR.
4. Basically the first thing Mangini did -- first thing -- was have them tear down a mural of great Cleveland Browns players on the wall in the Browns offices. Now, there are differing opinions about what really happened, whose fault it really was, does it all matter, etc. You know what? The Cleveland Browns have never been to a Super Bowl. Never. Not one. But Browns fans still have a whole lot of pride. Browns fans grow up on a glorious history. If you allow something stupid like that to happen on your watch ... just a horrendous hire."
1. Mangini won 2 out of 3 years in NY, and had a better record last year at this point then rex ryan does with the same team.
2. Maybe its time cleveland fans get over this I for one would love to have Bill belichick as our coach right now and his superbowl championships to be here in cleveland and not in new england
3. I agree with this but belichick was grooming mangini to replace him in the future. That does say something.
4. LOL he moved it to the front of the main office in berea where EVERYONE can see it
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Seriously I don't believe that Mangini was the worst coaching hire ever. If you been watching the games you see that the WR are running the wrong routes and dropping passes. The quaterbacks have absolutely have no time at all and there is no holes for either of the running backs to run. Yea sure Mangini drafted this year but there is no way in hell that you can expect them to develop into stars. Also if you remember Crennel was the coach last year and he wasn't strict at all so most of our players aren't gonna be use to the stlye of Mangini the first. SO there is no way he is the worst hire ever.
P.S Does anyone remember the hire before lane Kiffin. Art Shell do we really wanna become the raiders if we fire him already?
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Some things that make me optimistic about Mangini, even half-way into a miserable season:
1. He seems like a smart problem-solver. Once he has the talent, I don't see him losing many games by having the wrong gameplan.
2. He's disciplined (unlike Crennel) without being an asshole (like Butch Davis). I love how few penalties we've committed this year. I'm worried about mistaken assignments on defense explaining some of those huge plays against us. But I have to think that over time Rob Ryan + Mangini is going to give us a strong defense, especially if we draft some playmakers.
3. I like his emphasis on players with character and reasonable intelligence who put football first, players like Cribbs, Wimbley, and Massaquoi. His emphasis on players who can play multiple positions has already proven helpful.
4. In spite of all the drama this season, I think of Mangini as (more or less) even-tempered and an upstanding guy. Yes, it's nice having the fiery Ryan as def coordinator, but that sort of character can quickly become Tom Cable before you know it, and you just don't want that at the helm.
Wrong game plan? Ask a Jets fan, I've been to some boards. The team quit on the guy at the end of last season (except for the ones playing for the Browns this year of course). The Jets gave up 122 points at the end of the season after having a good defense all year. Sure you can have a game plan to win, but if you're a prick and your players quit?
Too few penalties! LOL. They have 52 (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Players with character. There is a quote from Lavarious Coles in my previous post that states those "character" guys are actually guys that like Mangini. Why else would someone bring in scrubs like he did from the Jets that NO ONE ELSE wanted to play for this team? Because of character? Give me a break.
In spite of all the drama. Blah, Blah, Blah. The drama HE created. Instead of creating drama, him and Daballs need to work on getting a first down.
Wrong game plan? Ask a Jets fan, I've been to some boards. The team quit on the guy at the end of last season (except for the ones playing for the Browns this year of course). The Jets gave up 122 points at the end of the season after having a good defense all year. Sure you can have a game plan to win, but if you're a prick and your players quit?
Too few penalties! LOL. They have 52 (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Players with character. There is a quote from Lavarious Coles in my previous post that states those "character" guys are actually guys that like Mangini. Why else would someone bring in scrubs like he did from the Jets that NO ONE ELSE wanted to play for this team? Because of character? Give me a break.
In spite of all the drama. Blah, Blah, Blah. The drama HE created. Instead of creating drama, him and Daballs need to work on getting a first down.
My impression was that they were doing better than that on penalties. I've got to figure out how to look these things up.
So, e.g., David Bowens isn't really a character guy? Is that what you're saying? I have no problem with Mangini bringing in intelligent, experienced guys like that who love football and want to be mentors. That's precisely what is needed during rebuilding.
I still think Mangini is smart enough that he's not going to get outcoached very often, once the talent is here. But, you're right, the first step is to mastermind a few more first downs.
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You call a player the worst ever, a coach a genius, a general manager an idiot -- these are probably fanboles.
But one of the fun things about a fanbole is that sometimes, after uttering one (or tweeting one), you will find that after you think about it for a while -- hey, you know what? -- you ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT.
I recently tweeted this: "Another one of those fan maybe-overstatement-maybe-not thoughts: Eric Mangini was the worst NFL head coach hire in 25 years."
Now, I'll admit -- that's pure fanbole.
But here's the thing: Based on the Twitter responses I've seen ... I'm actually starting to believe that I'm right. I'm actually starting to believe that Mangini really was the worst head coach hire in 25 years. The responses have mostly been to list other coaches who were worse hires than Mangini. But you know what? I don't think any of those hires WERE worse than Mangini. Remember:
1. Mangini had just been fired in New York, where he had done a terrible job. He had a losing record.
I couldn't get past #1 if we're gonna assassinate the guy's ability. NY made the playoffs in his 1st year so they had a winning record. And then in his 3rd season there, they won 10 games. Point I'm making is this guy WON every season he had a GOOD starting QB that was also healthy.
If I look at the Bill Belichick that we once couldn't wait to prematurely conclude could NOT coach - he too was goo EVERY time he had a good QB that was healthy. Vinny went 11-5 the only season he stayed healthy in Cleveland and he beat NE in round 1 of the playoffs. The other 4 years looked alot like our team THIS year. Speaking of BB as a Head Coach, his start in NE did not resemble NFL Utopia untile the day Tom Brady took over a winless team when a has-been QB got injured.
The IRONY for BB and his pupil is that even though they are from the Defensive side of the ball - their defenses didn't mean squat until they had a right talented QB making sure the offense put enough points on the board to collect the Ws.
Coming into the 2009 draft we had depleted depth with a handful of talented players. Usually when something like this unfolds - a fanbase looks forward to alot of draft picks right? How many did Savage leave us with for the 2009 draft? The right answer is 4 draft picks following these 5 guys Savage drafted in 08: (Beau Bell, Martin Rucker, Ahtyba Rubin, Paul Hubbard, and Alex Hall). You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize we didn't have ANY picks before rd 4 in 08. Aside from that, there's really only 2 keepers from that entire draft that we can't call starters on a team with 1 win today.
THIS is where we gotta be careful on claiming Mangin should be fired as a Head Coach without REALLY looking into the attempt to turn a shitty hand into something better. Someone doubled 4 draft picks into 8 for 2009 while adding starters from the Jets D that finished with 10 wins in 08. If anyone wants to pretend they happy with Braylon in Cleveland now that he is gone - fill me in. The Jets are 1-3 since he arrived when they were 3-1 BEFORE he arrived. What did we get for removing the distractions on and off the field? 2 more draft picks for 2010, 1 STs player that rotates in our starting lineup on D and Chansi Stuckey that might still pan out here.
So what else do I have? Let's take a look:
1) Cribbs is playing his best football yet
2) Joe Thomas sutout the following guys: Jared Allen, Antwaan Odoms, James Harrison, and Aaron Schobel.
3) Kam Wimbley is back to sacking the QB the way he did as a rookie and looking better than ever.
4) Alex Mack continues to improve
5) When Rogers is healthy - he's unstoppable. When he's NOT - his young backup is doing a WAY better job on the Apex than we saw in 2008.
6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
7) Jackson was arguably playing his best football in 09.
Are we shooting the RIGHT villain here or does Savage get the same quiet magic carpet ride out of town that Carmen Policy got? The person we need to HOLD accountable for the front office looking like a lost "I Love Lucy" episode is Randy Lerner. Get an experience GM/Pres type in here so Mangini can focus on being the Head Coach we'd hoped he'd be. If he's feeling the need to be MORE than a Head Coach is because of a chaotic environment we can only blame the owner for.
- Tom F.
6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Luck is Tim Couch. Big, Dumb Goofy, slow thinking QB - Ghoolie, 2-28-12 -
6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
Truth hurts don't it? When your spewing the same crap thats been disproven countless times people will start to hurl insults.
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Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
Truth hurts don't it? When your spewing the same crap thats been disproven countless times people will start to hurl insults.
Dawgfanforever88 said:
Truth hurts don't it? When your spewing the same crap thats been disproven countless times people will start to hurl insults.Ah dude grow the f*ck up. We will have to wait and see how this turns out.
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OK, I looked it up in this week's PFW, and the Browns are ranked 5 in penalty yard edge. That's pretty damn good. The only team stat that's better is punt return differential: they're ranked 1! We're also not doing badly on KO return differential with a rank of 7.
None of this is surprising. A bit surprising is the defense's efficiency in the red zone: rank of 10. The sad thing is that our defense has faced the greatest number of red zone situations, 35. (I think I'm reading this right. My flu has me wondering.)
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
Truth hurts don't it? When your spewing the same crap thats been disproven countless times people will start to hurl insults.Ah dude grow the f*ck up. We will have to wait and see how this turns out.
Ah dude grow the f*ck up. We will have to wait and see how this turns out.
agreed we will have to wait and see. but dude you started it a while ago with your "what a douche bag. Blow mangini on your own time" comment.
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I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
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I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
Whats your take on the kokinis situation? ernie accorsi recommended him and he is a football guy. Is it a case of you can't be right all the time no matter who you are?
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6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Hang in there man! We're all really really really frustrated.
I'd like to see 1 Head Coach get a decent chance to prove he can do a good job.
When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Scott bruner and Phil Simms
When Parcells started in NE he was 1-15 with Drew Bledsoe.
When Jimmy Johnson started in Dallas he was 1-15 with Aikman and the fans wanted Steve Walsh.
I LIKE that we doubled our 2009 draft volumes from 4 picks to 8 picks and our 2010 draft volume into the double digits. Let's see what happens.
I've ALWAYS wanted it to be just firing or benching so we wouldn't continue to look so much like 1999. Trouble is - it's now 2009 and we look just like 1999. More specifically, we've fired OCs, we've fired DCs, we've fired HCs, we've demtoed QBs to promote other QBs. Guess what? No 1 move changed things like people thought it would.
- Tom F.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.)
Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done.
He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value.
Would you say he handled that situation well?
Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB?
Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them?
And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs?
In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks?
And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team.
My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward.
But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position.
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I'm shocked to see all this debate about whether Mangnini is the worst coaching hire ever.
It's really clear there's a bit of a divide on that issue.
Can't we all just put aside our differences and agree that he may not be the worst coaching hire ever?
Now, second worst? THAT I'm sure we can all agree on. Second worst coaching hire ever in the history of football.
That should bring closure and agreement!
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Lets see..In his 4 year head coaching career Mangini has beaten Cowher, Tomlin, Fisher and Belichick..TWICE..Had 2 winning seasons as a head coach..To say he can't coach is just stupid
-
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Hang in there man! We're all really really really frustrated.
I'd like to see 1 Head Coach get a decent chance to prove he can do a good job.
When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Scott bruner and Phil Simms
When Parcells started in NE he was 1-15 with Drew Bledsoe.
When Jimmy Johnson started in Dallas he was 1-15 with Aikman and the fans wanted Steve Walsh.
I LIKE that we doubled our 2009 draft volumes from 4 picks to 8 picks and our 2010 draft volume into the double digits. Let's see what happens.
I've ALWAYS wanted it to be just firing or benching so we wouldn't continue to look so much like 1999. Trouble is - it's now 2009 and we look just like 1999. More specifically, we've fired OCs, we've fired DCs, we've fired HCs, we've demtoed QBs to promote other QBs. Guess what? No 1 move changed things like people thought it would.
- Tom F.
Hang in there man! We're all really really really frustrated.
I'd like to see 1 Head Coach get a decent chance to prove he can do a good job.
When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Scott bruner and Phil Simms
When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Drew Bledsoe.
When Jimmy Johnson started in Dallas he was 1-15 with Aikman and the fans wanted Steve Walsh.
I LIKE that we doubled our 2009 draft volumes from 4 picks to 8 picks and our 2010 draft volume into the double digits. Let's see what happens.
I've ALWAYS wanted it to be just firing or benching so we wouldn't continue to look so much like 1999. Trouble is - it's now 2009 and we look just like 1999. More specifically, we've fired OCs, we've fired DCs, we've fired HCs, we've demtoed QBs to promote other QBs. Guess what? No 1 move changed things like people thought it would.
- Tom F.
Now Flugs I wasn't saying you are right. I was saying it was a good take. I still think that it was a poor decision. Please don't compare Parcells to Mangini, he was an established coach when taking over. Hey I will be the first one to come in here to say I was wrong, but I think I am right. We'll see though.
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Lets see..In his 4 year head coaching career Mangini has beaten Cowher, Tomlin, Fisher and Belichick..TWICE..Had 2 winning seasons as a head coach..To say he can't coach is just stupid
Lets see..In his 4 year head coaching career Mangini has beaten Cowher, Tomlin, Fisher and Belichick..TWICE..Had 2 winning seasons as a head coach..To say he can't coach is just stupid
Please...
Belicheck has been beaten by schlubs especially when he was in Cleveland, and nearly lost to the Bills this year (remember them, the team we barely beat by a field goal?). Fisher's team could be beaten by a D3 school on a bad day this year, Cowher had packed it in his last year in the league, and Tomlin lost a game to the Bears this year. A couple of wins against good coaches does not mean he out-coached them, his team may have outplayed them, it may have been a fluke. And I'm sorry, but as a "genius" from the Belicheck tree, two "winning" seasons out of four? How many games does it take to make a winning season? I'm pretty sure Romeo went 1 for 3 or 4, so half as good right? No one is questioning if he can push X's and O's, but that doesn't make him a leader, a motivator, or someone that earns the players' respect, and frankly without those, you can't be a successful coach, the best you're looking at is a coordinator position.
-
I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
Whats your take on the kokinis situation? ernie accorsi recommended him and he is a football guy. Is it a case of you can't be right all the time no matter who you are?
Dawgfanforever88 said:
Whats your take on the kokinis situation? ernie accorsi recommended him and he is a football guy. Is it a case of you can't be right all the time no matter who you are?Actually Accorsi didn't recommend Kokinis, he recommended the Pro Personnel director of the giants and Lerner went with Mangini's recommendation. But as it is being documented now, Kokinis definately stepped in over his head. I remember at training camp that he wouldn't even talk to people. He would be off by himself and was unapproachable. Never really saw him interact with the HC. Also, there is still something there regarding his relationship with O'Brien. Maybe both were just putting out feelers and befriended each other because they were very unhappy in Cleveland.
Accorsi is a very well respected football man and well liked throughout the league. I don't think the door is shut on him yet. And, you are right saying "you can't be right all the time". Nobody is and especially in the NFL. I would have to qualify that and say with the exception of JoeSixPat, who thinks nobody else's opinions are worth shit and he is always right.
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I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.)
Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done.
He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value.
Would you say he handled that situation well?
Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB?
Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them?
And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs?
In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks?
And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team.
My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward.
But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position.
Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.)
Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done.
He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value.
Would you say he handled that situation well?
Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB?
Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them?
And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs?
In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks?
And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team.
My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward.
But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position.
Thanks for your opinion on the matter, as usual it isn't worth shit. How do you mishandle a situation when neither QB did shit in summer camp and both tried to give the job away daily. Neither could perform worth a shit in preseason games and both have proven to be just what Mangini feared when he was trying to trade them in the preseason, overrated and unproductive players. So, again, how do you mishandle a situation where there is no winning senerio?
If either player had great trade value they would have been traded. Don't even believe rumors that the team was offered anything close to any real value for either. Quinn was offered to the Jets, Lions and Denver and all turned the offers down. Mangini tried to trade Quinn all spring (widely reported). Denver only kept the Brown's hanging in case they got rid of Cutler and couldn't get a QB in return. They wanted Quinn and wanted Cleveland to take Campbell. They wouldn't have come close to trading a top draft pick for him. That was Quinn's value. The best the Brown's were offered for either was a 3rd. So, again, please tell me how Mangini ruined the trade value of two QBs that didn't have much to begin with?
You spew a whole lot of crap my friend but you really don't have a clue.
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