The Worst Coaching Hire Ever?
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Some things that make me optimistic about Mangini, even half-way into a miserable season:
1. He seems like a smart problem-solver. Once he has the talent, I don't see him losing many games by having the wrong gameplan.
2. He's disciplined (unlike Crennel) without being an asshole (like Butch Davis). I love how few penalties we've committed this year. I'm worried about mistaken assignments on defense explaining some of those huge plays against us. But I have to think that over time Rob Ryan + Mangini is going to give us a strong defense, especially if we draft some playmakers.
3. I like his emphasis on players with character and reasonable intelligence who put football first, players like Cribbs, Wimbley, and Massaquoi. His emphasis on players who can play multiple positions has already proven helpful.
4. In spite of all the drama this season, I think of Mangini as (more or less) even-tempered and an upstanding guy. Yes, it's nice having the fiery Ryan as def coordinator, but that sort of character can quickly become Tom Cable before you know it, and you just don't want that at the helm.
Wrong game plan? Ask a Jets fan, I've been to some boards. The team quit on the guy at the end of last season (except for the ones playing for the Browns this year of course). The Jets gave up 122 points at the end of the season after having a good defense all year. Sure you can have a game plan to win, but if you're a prick and your players quit?
Too few penalties! LOL. They have 52 (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Players with character. There is a quote from Lavarious Coles in my previous post that states those "character" guys are actually guys that like Mangini. Why else would someone bring in scrubs like he did from the Jets that NO ONE ELSE wanted to play for this team? Because of character? Give me a break.
In spite of all the drama. Blah, Blah, Blah. The drama HE created. Instead of creating drama, him and Daballs need to work on getting a first down.
Wrong game plan? Ask a Jets fan, I've been to some boards. The team quit on the guy at the end of last season (except for the ones playing for the Browns this year of course). The Jets gave up 122 points at the end of the season after having a good defense all year. Sure you can have a game plan to win, but if you're a prick and your players quit?
Too few penalties! LOL. They have 52 (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Players with character. There is a quote from Lavarious Coles in my previous post that states those "character" guys are actually guys that like Mangini. Why else would someone bring in scrubs like he did from the Jets that NO ONE ELSE wanted to play for this team? Because of character? Give me a break.
In spite of all the drama. Blah, Blah, Blah. The drama HE created. Instead of creating drama, him and Daballs need to work on getting a first down.
My impression was that they were doing better than that on penalties. I've got to figure out how to look these things up.
So, e.g., David Bowens isn't really a character guy? Is that what you're saying? I have no problem with Mangini bringing in intelligent, experienced guys like that who love football and want to be mentors. That's precisely what is needed during rebuilding.
I still think Mangini is smart enough that he's not going to get outcoached very often, once the talent is here. But, you're right, the first step is to mastermind a few more first downs.
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You call a player the worst ever, a coach a genius, a general manager an idiot -- these are probably fanboles.
But one of the fun things about a fanbole is that sometimes, after uttering one (or tweeting one), you will find that after you think about it for a while -- hey, you know what? -- you ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT.
I recently tweeted this: "Another one of those fan maybe-overstatement-maybe-not thoughts: Eric Mangini was the worst NFL head coach hire in 25 years."
Now, I'll admit -- that's pure fanbole.
But here's the thing: Based on the Twitter responses I've seen ... I'm actually starting to believe that I'm right. I'm actually starting to believe that Mangini really was the worst head coach hire in 25 years. The responses have mostly been to list other coaches who were worse hires than Mangini. But you know what? I don't think any of those hires WERE worse than Mangini. Remember:
1. Mangini had just been fired in New York, where he had done a terrible job. He had a losing record.
I couldn't get past #1 if we're gonna assassinate the guy's ability. NY made the playoffs in his 1st year so they had a winning record. And then in his 3rd season there, they won 10 games. Point I'm making is this guy WON every season he had a GOOD starting QB that was also healthy.
If I look at the Bill Belichick that we once couldn't wait to prematurely conclude could NOT coach - he too was goo EVERY time he had a good QB that was healthy. Vinny went 11-5 the only season he stayed healthy in Cleveland and he beat NE in round 1 of the playoffs. The other 4 years looked alot like our team THIS year. Speaking of BB as a Head Coach, his start in NE did not resemble NFL Utopia untile the day Tom Brady took over a winless team when a has-been QB got injured.
The IRONY for BB and his pupil is that even though they are from the Defensive side of the ball - their defenses didn't mean squat until they had a right talented QB making sure the offense put enough points on the board to collect the Ws.
Coming into the 2009 draft we had depleted depth with a handful of talented players. Usually when something like this unfolds - a fanbase looks forward to alot of draft picks right? How many did Savage leave us with for the 2009 draft? The right answer is 4 draft picks following these 5 guys Savage drafted in 08: (Beau Bell, Martin Rucker, Ahtyba Rubin, Paul Hubbard, and Alex Hall). You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize we didn't have ANY picks before rd 4 in 08. Aside from that, there's really only 2 keepers from that entire draft that we can't call starters on a team with 1 win today.
THIS is where we gotta be careful on claiming Mangin should be fired as a Head Coach without REALLY looking into the attempt to turn a shitty hand into something better. Someone doubled 4 draft picks into 8 for 2009 while adding starters from the Jets D that finished with 10 wins in 08. If anyone wants to pretend they happy with Braylon in Cleveland now that he is gone - fill me in. The Jets are 1-3 since he arrived when they were 3-1 BEFORE he arrived. What did we get for removing the distractions on and off the field? 2 more draft picks for 2010, 1 STs player that rotates in our starting lineup on D and Chansi Stuckey that might still pan out here.
So what else do I have? Let's take a look:
1) Cribbs is playing his best football yet
2) Joe Thomas sutout the following guys: Jared Allen, Antwaan Odoms, James Harrison, and Aaron Schobel.
3) Kam Wimbley is back to sacking the QB the way he did as a rookie and looking better than ever.
4) Alex Mack continues to improve
5) When Rogers is healthy - he's unstoppable. When he's NOT - his young backup is doing a WAY better job on the Apex than we saw in 2008.
6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
7) Jackson was arguably playing his best football in 09.
Are we shooting the RIGHT villain here or does Savage get the same quiet magic carpet ride out of town that Carmen Policy got? The person we need to HOLD accountable for the front office looking like a lost "I Love Lucy" episode is Randy Lerner. Get an experience GM/Pres type in here so Mangini can focus on being the Head Coach we'd hoped he'd be. If he's feeling the need to be MORE than a Head Coach is because of a chaotic environment we can only blame the owner for.
- Tom F.
6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Luck is Tim Couch. Big, Dumb Goofy, slow thinking QB - Ghoolie, 2-28-12 -
6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
Truth hurts don't it? When your spewing the same crap thats been disproven countless times people will start to hurl insults.
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Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
Truth hurts don't it? When your spewing the same crap thats been disproven countless times people will start to hurl insults.
Dawgfanforever88 said:
Truth hurts don't it? When your spewing the same crap thats been disproven countless times people will start to hurl insults.Ah dude grow the f*ck up. We will have to wait and see how this turns out.
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OK, I looked it up in this week's PFW, and the Browns are ranked 5 in penalty yard edge. That's pretty damn good. The only team stat that's better is punt return differential: they're ranked 1! We're also not doing badly on KO return differential with a rank of 7.
None of this is surprising. A bit surprising is the defense's efficiency in the red zone: rank of 10. The sad thing is that our defense has faced the greatest number of red zone situations, 35. (I think I'm reading this right. My flu has me wondering.)
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
Truth hurts don't it? When your spewing the same crap thats been disproven countless times people will start to hurl insults.Ah dude grow the f*ck up. We will have to wait and see how this turns out.
Ah dude grow the f*ck up. We will have to wait and see how this turns out.
agreed we will have to wait and see. but dude you started it a while ago with your "what a douche bag. Blow mangini on your own time" comment.
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I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
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I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
Whats your take on the kokinis situation? ernie accorsi recommended him and he is a football guy. Is it a case of you can't be right all the time no matter who you are?
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6) The first 7 games showed me a much less penalized team than I have seen.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Hang in there man! We're all really really really frustrated.
I'd like to see 1 Head Coach get a decent chance to prove he can do a good job.
When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Scott bruner and Phil Simms
When Parcells started in NE he was 1-15 with Drew Bledsoe.
When Jimmy Johnson started in Dallas he was 1-15 with Aikman and the fans wanted Steve Walsh.
I LIKE that we doubled our 2009 draft volumes from 4 picks to 8 picks and our 2010 draft volume into the double digits. Let's see what happens.
I've ALWAYS wanted it to be just firing or benching so we wouldn't continue to look so much like 1999. Trouble is - it's now 2009 and we look just like 1999. More specifically, we've fired OCs, we've fired DCs, we've fired HCs, we've demtoed QBs to promote other QBs. Guess what? No 1 move changed things like people thought it would.
- Tom F.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.)
Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done.
He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value.
Would you say he handled that situation well?
Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB?
Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them?
And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs?
In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks?
And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team.
My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward.
But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position.
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I'm shocked to see all this debate about whether Mangnini is the worst coaching hire ever.
It's really clear there's a bit of a divide on that issue.
Can't we all just put aside our differences and agree that he may not be the worst coaching hire ever?
Now, second worst? THAT I'm sure we can all agree on. Second worst coaching hire ever in the history of football.
That should bring closure and agreement!
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Lets see..In his 4 year head coaching career Mangini has beaten Cowher, Tomlin, Fisher and Belichick..TWICE..Had 2 winning seasons as a head coach..To say he can't coach is just stupid
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Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit.
I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players.
The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers.
Hang in there man! We're all really really really frustrated.
I'd like to see 1 Head Coach get a decent chance to prove he can do a good job.
When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Scott bruner and Phil Simms
When Parcells started in NE he was 1-15 with Drew Bledsoe.
When Jimmy Johnson started in Dallas he was 1-15 with Aikman and the fans wanted Steve Walsh.
I LIKE that we doubled our 2009 draft volumes from 4 picks to 8 picks and our 2010 draft volume into the double digits. Let's see what happens.
I've ALWAYS wanted it to be just firing or benching so we wouldn't continue to look so much like 1999. Trouble is - it's now 2009 and we look just like 1999. More specifically, we've fired OCs, we've fired DCs, we've fired HCs, we've demtoed QBs to promote other QBs. Guess what? No 1 move changed things like people thought it would.
- Tom F.
Hang in there man! We're all really really really frustrated.
I'd like to see 1 Head Coach get a decent chance to prove he can do a good job.
When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Scott bruner and Phil Simms
When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Drew Bledsoe.
When Jimmy Johnson started in Dallas he was 1-15 with Aikman and the fans wanted Steve Walsh.
I LIKE that we doubled our 2009 draft volumes from 4 picks to 8 picks and our 2010 draft volume into the double digits. Let's see what happens.
I've ALWAYS wanted it to be just firing or benching so we wouldn't continue to look so much like 1999. Trouble is - it's now 2009 and we look just like 1999. More specifically, we've fired OCs, we've fired DCs, we've fired HCs, we've demtoed QBs to promote other QBs. Guess what? No 1 move changed things like people thought it would.
- Tom F.
Now Flugs I wasn't saying you are right. I was saying it was a good take. I still think that it was a poor decision. Please don't compare Parcells to Mangini, he was an established coach when taking over. Hey I will be the first one to come in here to say I was wrong, but I think I am right. We'll see though.
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Lets see..In his 4 year head coaching career Mangini has beaten Cowher, Tomlin, Fisher and Belichick..TWICE..Had 2 winning seasons as a head coach..To say he can't coach is just stupid
Lets see..In his 4 year head coaching career Mangini has beaten Cowher, Tomlin, Fisher and Belichick..TWICE..Had 2 winning seasons as a head coach..To say he can't coach is just stupid
Please...
Belicheck has been beaten by schlubs especially when he was in Cleveland, and nearly lost to the Bills this year (remember them, the team we barely beat by a field goal?). Fisher's team could be beaten by a D3 school on a bad day this year, Cowher had packed it in his last year in the league, and Tomlin lost a game to the Bears this year. A couple of wins against good coaches does not mean he out-coached them, his team may have outplayed them, it may have been a fluke. And I'm sorry, but as a "genius" from the Belicheck tree, two "winning" seasons out of four? How many games does it take to make a winning season? I'm pretty sure Romeo went 1 for 3 or 4, so half as good right? No one is questioning if he can push X's and O's, but that doesn't make him a leader, a motivator, or someone that earns the players' respect, and frankly without those, you can't be a successful coach, the best you're looking at is a coordinator position.
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I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
If he took over a team with real talent and solid impact players people would be singing his prases like they were in New York his first year. Somewhere between his first year and second year he forgot how to coach football. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't have a healthy QB and had other injuries that severely impacted the team's season. And last season they were headed to the playoffs until Favre blew out his arm, the team didn't quit on him. The QB shit the bed and blew three games down the stretch because he coldn't throw the ball.
So, the bottom line is coaches are great when they have talent and seem to suck when they don't. Gruden sucked and was fired but somewhere along the line the was smart enough to take a team to the super bowl. Shanahan was a great coach when he had talent. The best example was everybody wanted to run Belechick out of town when he was here because he was a control freak, fined players and the media hated him (sounds familiar).
As much as you may hate to admit it, it isn't as much about the coach or system then it is about the talent on the team. Teams win with impact players who can execute plays. It really doesn't matter if it's a 3-4 or 4-3 defense, running attack or passing attack. You need players who can make plays.
Many people here over the last few years have tried to tell all the "knee Jerkers" that we just don't have an abundance of talent and we don't have impact players.
This is a QB driven league. We don't have one. Was Mangini very secretive about his QB pick this year? Yes, and for good reason, they both suck. We don't have a QB that can execute and move the offense to score points. We go through a whole preseason and our QB derby comes down to a guy who threw one TD pass all preseason. Can you think of a reason why Mangini couldn't really make a decision until the end of camp. This was a competition of who sucked the less.
It starts at QB but then you also have to have talent around him. We don't have that either. You have a line that can't block and receivers that can't catch and RBs that are too slow getting to holes. The players have been coached, they just aren't that good.
Bottom line is the coach is as good as the players he's got. Now, if he has been there 3 years and the players still stink, then he has to share the blame.
So the bullshit about Mangini being the worst coach, is just that. Put the blame where it belongs. You have an owner that hasn't built a stable organization. He's made bad decisions because he hasn't brought in real football people to help him run the show. As far as Mangini...............................coaches need players.
Get a QB...........it starts there, not replacing a coach and bringing in another guy who will suck because he doens't have any talent.
One thing to remember.....................................the sports media are paid to be controversial to get people to watch their shows or buy their papers. Most know about as much as you and me.
Whats your take on the kokinis situation? ernie accorsi recommended him and he is a football guy. Is it a case of you can't be right all the time no matter who you are?
Dawgfanforever88 said:
Whats your take on the kokinis situation? ernie accorsi recommended him and he is a football guy. Is it a case of you can't be right all the time no matter who you are?Actually Accorsi didn't recommend Kokinis, he recommended the Pro Personnel director of the giants and Lerner went with Mangini's recommendation. But as it is being documented now, Kokinis definately stepped in over his head. I remember at training camp that he wouldn't even talk to people. He would be off by himself and was unapproachable. Never really saw him interact with the HC. Also, there is still something there regarding his relationship with O'Brien. Maybe both were just putting out feelers and befriended each other because they were very unhappy in Cleveland.
Accorsi is a very well respected football man and well liked throughout the league. I don't think the door is shut on him yet. And, you are right saying "you can't be right all the time". Nobody is and especially in the NFL. I would have to qualify that and say with the exception of JoeSixPat, who thinks nobody else's opinions are worth shit and he is always right.
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I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault.
Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.)
Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done.
He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value.
Would you say he handled that situation well?
Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB?
Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them?
And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs?
In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks?
And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team.
My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward.
But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position.
Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.)
Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done.
He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value.
Would you say he handled that situation well?
Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB?
Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them?
And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs?
In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks?
And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team.
My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward.
But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position.
Thanks for your opinion on the matter, as usual it isn't worth shit. How do you mishandle a situation when neither QB did shit in summer camp and both tried to give the job away daily. Neither could perform worth a shit in preseason games and both have proven to be just what Mangini feared when he was trying to trade them in the preseason, overrated and unproductive players. So, again, how do you mishandle a situation where there is no winning senerio?
If either player had great trade value they would have been traded. Don't even believe rumors that the team was offered anything close to any real value for either. Quinn was offered to the Jets, Lions and Denver and all turned the offers down. Mangini tried to trade Quinn all spring (widely reported). Denver only kept the Brown's hanging in case they got rid of Cutler and couldn't get a QB in return. They wanted Quinn and wanted Cleveland to take Campbell. They wouldn't have come close to trading a top draft pick for him. That was Quinn's value. The best the Brown's were offered for either was a 3rd. So, again, please tell me how Mangini ruined the trade value of two QBs that didn't have much to begin with?
You spew a whole lot of crap my friend but you really don't have a clue.
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I'm shocked to see all this debate about whether Mangnini is the worst coaching hire ever.
It's really clear there's a bit of a divide on that issue.
Can't we all just put aside our differences and agree that he may not be the worst coaching hire ever?
Now, second worst? THAT I'm sure we can all agree on. Second worst coaching hire ever in the history of football.
That should bring closure and agreement!
I'm shocked to see all this debate about whether Mangnini is the worst coaching hire ever.
It's really clear there's a bit of a divide on that issue.
Can't we all just put aside our differences and agree that he may not be the worst coaching hire ever?
Now, second worst? THAT I'm sure we can all agree on. Second worst coaching hire ever in the history of football.
That should bring closure and agreement!
Joe,
Just curious what you're getting out of all this discussion? You claim to be a NE fan and you're on THIS board acting like you know what we're going through?
If you're not trying to be a dick - my apology.
I don't see how ANYONE thinks there's a remotely fair assessment at ANYONE that was handed this cluster[huck for the reasons I've laid out in countless other threads. Just look at how Savage set up our last 2 drafts. There was no day 1 in 2008 and a total of 5 guys with ONLY Rubin striking me as a keeper. We had 4 picks coming into the 2009 draft. The previous regime pissed off the 2 alleged "superstars" to where their decisions were already made. Now we're trying to bulk up our draft volumes as they combine 2 wins and 10 losses where grass was supposed to be so much greener.
ESPN had a GREAT article McDaniels and Mangini in the summer time. They did some BB projects as assistants that impressed the Hell out of BB and they are both workaholics LIKE BB.
It was once assumed BB couldn't coach here in Cleveland. Today alot of those fans are in love with BB and ready to chase Mangini out of town as early as October. That's like telling Troy Aikman in his first 15 games "you can't QB" while Dallas fans were furious Steve Walsh wasn't starting instead. MOST of them were certain JJ couldn't coach. Do you know what HELPED him become a better coach in the fans' eyes? Doubling and tripling draft volumes. Alot of them think he just woke up a good coach one day. They thought the same thing about Troy Aikman waking up a good QB one day. You gotta have more than pawns to win chess matches or it just won't matter how smart or good a coach is. Don't believe me? What did BB ever win before Tom Brady was his starting QB? He certainly didn't win when Todd Philcox was his starting QB nor did he win when Eric Zeier had to be. I think he was winless with Drew Bledsoe as starter in NE right?
- Tom F.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.)
Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done.
He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value.
Would you say he handled that situation well?
Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB?
Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them?
And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs?
In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks?
And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team.
My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward.
But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position.
Thanks for your opinion on the matter, as usual it isn't worth shit. How do you mishandle a situation when neither QB did shit in summer camp and both tried to give the job away daily. Neither could perform worth a shit in preseason games and both have proven to be just what Mangini feared when he was trying to trade them in the preseason, overrated and unproductive players. So, again, how do you mishandle a situation where there is no winning senerio?
If either player had great trade value they would have been traded. Don't even believe rumors that the team was offered anything close to any real value for either. Quinn was offered to the Jets, Lions and Denver and all turned the offers down. Mangini tried to trade Quinn all spring (widely reported). Denver only kept the Brown's hanging in case they got rid of Cutler and couldn't get a QB in return. They wanted Quinn and wanted Cleveland to take Campbell. They wouldn't have come close to trading a top draft pick for him. That was Quinn's value. The best the Brown's were offered for either was a 3rd. So, again, please tell me how Mangini ruined the trade value of two QBs that didn't have much to begin with?
You spew a whole lot of crap my friend but you really don't have a clue.
Thanks for your opinion on the matter, as usual it isn't worth shit. How do you mishandle a situation when neither QB did shit in summer camp and both tried to give the job away daily. Neither could perform worth a shit in preseason games and both have proven to be just what Mangini feared when he was trying to trade them in the preseason, overrated and unproductive players. So, again, how do you mishandle a situation where there is no winning senerio?
If either player had great trade value they would have been traded. Don't even believe rumors that the team was offered anything close to any real value for either. Quinn was offered to the Jets, Lions and Denver and all turned the offers down. Mangini tried to trade Quinn all spring (widely reported). Denver only kept the Brown's hanging in case they got rid of Cutler and couldn't get a QB in return. They wanted Quinn and wanted Cleveland to take Campbell. They wouldn't have come close to trading a top draft pick for him. That was Quinn's value. The best the Brown's were offered for either was a 3rd. So, again, please tell me how Mangini ruined the trade value of two QBs that didn't have much to begin with?
You spew a whole lot of crap my friend but you really don't have a clue.
The childish secrecy didn't help the matter, and if neither quarterback was so obviously grossly unqualified for the position, as head coach it was his responsibility to trade one or both, or at the very least provide a viagle alternative. Widely reported? My ass, there were plenty of teams in need of a starting QB this year that BQ or DA could've been sent to. He ruined their trade value, by hiding the fact he thought they both sucked up until the opening game, putting Quinn in just long enough to look awful and then yanking him in favor of a guy that sucked worse against more pathetic teams, and not reinstating Quinn earlier.
Is that you Eric?
-
I'm shocked to see all this debate about whether Mangnini is the worst coaching hire ever.
It's really clear there's a bit of a divide on that issue.
Can't we all just put aside our differences and agree that he may not be the worst coaching hire ever?
Now, second worst? THAT I'm sure we can all agree on. Second worst coaching hire ever in the history of football.
That should bring closure and agreement!
Joe,
Just curious what you're getting out of all this discussion? You claim to be a NE fan and you're on THIS board acting like you know what we're going through?
If you're not trying to be a dick - my apology.
I don't see how ANYONE thinks there's a remotely fair assessment at ANYONE that was handed this cluster[huck for the reasons I've laid out in countless other threads. Just look at how Savage set up our last 2 drafts. There was no day 1 in 2008 and a total of 5 guys with ONLY Rubin striking me as a keeper. We had 4 picks coming into the 2009 draft. The previous regime pissed off the 2 alleged "superstars" to where their decisions were already made. Now we're trying to bulk up our draft volumes as they combine 2 wins and 10 losses where grass was supposed to be so much greener.
ESPN had a GREAT article McDaniels and Mangini in the summer time. They did some BB projects as assistants that impressed the Hell out of BB and they are both workaholics LIKE BB.
It was once assumed BB couldn't coach here in Cleveland. Today alot of those fans are in love with BB and ready to chase Mangini out of town as early as October. That's like telling Troy Aikman in his first 15 games "you can't QB" while Dallas fans were furious Steve Walsh wasn't starting instead. MOST of them were certain JJ couldn't coach. Do you know what HELPED him become a better coach in the fans' eyes? Doubling and tripling draft volumes. Alot of them think he just woke up a good coach one day. They thought the same thing about Troy Aikman waking up a good QB one day. You gotta have more than pawns to win chess matches or it just won't matter how smart or good a coach is. Don't believe me? What did BB ever win before Tom Brady was his starting QB? He certainly didn't win when Todd Philcox was his starting QB nor did he win when Eric Zeier had to be. I think he was winless with Drew Bledsoe as starter in NE right?
- Tom F.
Joe,
Just curious what you're getting out of all this discussion? You claim to be a NE fan and you're on THIS board acting like you know what we're going through?
Look up "New England Patriots... 1990. The Rod Rust years.
Now Rod was a nice guy... not a control freak or an a-hole. Frankly more control would have been better. And I did go to some games that year and freeze my ass off on aluminum seats in freezing weather. But I and other fans also voted with our feet. We sent a loud message that was evident from numerous TV blackouts because fans weren't going to accept such awful football. There was a groundwell of fans who hoped the owner would improve the team or sell it - and he eventually he did and Bill Parcells was brought in to restore a team that had lost any credibility it once had gained.
My "support" for the team took the shape of staying away in hopes of forcing a change. I don't know if that's why Kiam made the change he did (he at least was a smart businessman) but the end result is that we got a good change.
-
Joe,
Just curious what you're getting out of all this discussion? You claim to be a NE fan and you're on THIS board acting like you know what we're going through?
Look up "New England Patriots... 1990. The Rod Rust years.
Now Rod was a nice guy... not a control freak or an a-hole. Frankly more control would have been better. And I did go to some games that year and freeze my ass off on aluminum seats in freezing weather. But I and other fans also voted with our feet. We sent a loud message that was evident from numerous TV blackouts because fans weren't going to accept such awful football. There was a groundwell of fans who hoped the owner would improve the team or sell it - and he eventually he did and Bill Parcells was brought in to restore a team that had lost any credibility it once had gained.
My "support" for the team took the shape of staying away in hopes of forcing a change. I don't know if that's why Kiam made the change he did (he at least was a smart businessman) but the end result is that we got a good change.
Look up "New England Patriots... 1990. The Rod Rust years.
Now Rod was a nice guy... not a control freak or an a-hole. Frankly more control would have been better. And I did go to some games that year and freeze my ass off on aluminum seats in freezing weather. But I and other fans also voted with our feet. We sent a loud message that was evident from numerous TV blackouts because fans weren't going to accept such awful football. There was a groundwell of fans who hoped the owner would improve the team or sell it - and he eventually he did and Bill Parcells was brought in to restore a team that had lost any credibility it once had gained.
My "support" for the team took the shape of staying away in hopes of forcing a change. I don't know if that's why Kiam made the change he did (he at least was a smart businessman) but the end result is that we got a good change.
You DO understand BB's masterful mind was just winless leading up to Brady's first start right? SOMEWHERE over the rainbow, BB needed to find that lucky pot of gold before he could showcase his true talents.
If seen him coaching here when he had QBs named Zeier and Philcox just like I saw him in NE when he had a QB named Bledsoe. If it was just about the genious coach not needing the RIGHT QB - then BB would have won inspite of Philcox, inspite of Zeier and inspite of Bledsoe before every decent FA wanted to go to NE before they left football. Before Tom Brady's coming out party - I didn't hear people saying they wanted to go play in NE.
I understand what yuz felt was right in NE. That said, you didn't have your franchise MOVE and it's about the worst experience you can ever fathom as a fan. Understanding the NFL has an itchy finger to put another team in Los Angeles - I don't want the message circulating that the fans of Cleveland have lost interest in the NFL. I don't think it would sit well with the Commish if they gave us a home game for MNF and everybody didn't find their seats by opening kickoff. What does that accomplish besides telling sane Americans everywhere: "see why no decent Head Coaching candidates want to come here?"
Truth be told, I have yet to see the first Head Coach come here and rise Lazarus from the dead. I HAVE seen alot of coaches that were labelled good coaches coming here because they experienced success coaching good players elsewhere. They come here and they get a culture shock especially when players start getting injured on top of the slim pickings. It's like an MTV video of John Lennon's "Nobody Told Me There'd Be Days Like These." It goes to the top and Lerner has to be better with WHO he is bringing in to run his front office so a head Coach CAN be successful and the team CAN win.
- Tom F. (Tough times don't last - tough people do. Browns fans are tough people!)
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