Mangini driving away GM candidates

[JoeSixPat]

Zombo said:

I don't think he ever got a honeymoon. We've never cared for him one way or the other. He's the owner. We can't call for his head or hope he gets benched ... it's his team.

Do Redskins fans quit being Redskin fans because Dan Snyder is incompetent as a team owner? Do Raider fans quit becoming Raider fans because Al Davis slowly slips from "mad renegade genius" to "crazy old cook"?

You're a New England Patriots fan, right? Were you not a fan when the Sullivan Family owned the team? They owned the team for 29 years from 1960 to 1988 and the Patriots won "O" championships and generally were at the lower end of the food chain during that era (while the Browns were an elite franchise). Did the fans "put up with" the Sullivans? Of course they did, they didn't have a choice. Then you had that idiot Victor Kiam. You had to put up with him too, right? Because he owned the team.

So are you suggesting we go ahead with the Big Gay Protest? That's effing stupid.

We root for competitive games the rest of the year, we root that the defense improves, we root that some of the young guys have the light come on, we root that Mangini's plan starts to take root and results become evident on the field ... and if doesn't work then we call for the coaches head and start over again. And then you can come in here and say "See I told you, Mangini is a fool." We don't care. We'll move on to the next guy and root for him and get excited about his plans. And maybe he'll be the one. Our time will come. We are in dry spell ... 20 years since we were consistently good, 45 years since we won a championship. Just like the Patriots went 30-some years without being consistently good and the Red Sox went like 95 years without a championship. Did you abandon them? Did you hang the owners in effigy? Did you protest outside the stadium, miss kickoff, and then go into to your prepaid seats? Because if you did, you are a numbskull.

Zombo

I hope the Browns can rebuild themselves to be what the Red Sox were even in their 86 year Championship drought.

The vast majority of those years they were competitive. At this rate, it would be a tremendous achievement if the Browns could become credible and competitive in the next 86 years.

But yes, the New England fans most definitely did assert themselves. Even though the Patriots had been to the Super Bowl in 85 five years later the team was in such disarray that fans voted with their pocketbooks, and forced the owner to improve the team, or sell it (he did both). Magnini's right - there are comparisons to the Patriots... just the 1-15 1990 team.

There were a great many games blacked out because the stadium didn't sell out. That sent a pretty clear message to the owner who then made the full commitment to improving the team by changing the coach, selling the team and firing another coach to bring in Bill Parcells, a proven coach with a proven record of success. He was smart enough to know that the fans would be excited by such a move and would be supportive of the rebuilding.

So am I disappointed that Kiam didn't give Rod Rust a chance to put his plan into action? Am I upset that Orthwein didn't give Dick MacPherson a chance to succeed (and that's a guy who was an awsome college coach too) - nope. And you wouldn't have found too many fans who thought Kiam or Orthwein were out of line making a change so quickly.

Why would any owner expect fans to be excited about a failed coach who had just been fired? What tolerance was he expecting for a painful rebuilding process? And how much bumbling and fumbling will Lerner and the fans accept until they've said "enough" and do what the Patriots fans did and vote with their feet - which is all they can do.

Now I understand season ticket holders have already paid up... so what's it going to hurt if they send a message by showing the owner their displeasure? Not buying hot dogs and beer is a good idea too - but empty seats is very visible, and very embarrassing - just like the blacked out NE Patriots games were for Kiam.

[Earl34]

Zombo, that's a great post.

I think that the "JoeSixPat trap" here is to eviscerate Mangini's role in New England for nine seasons, minimize his progress/successes in NY and convince you that he's taken a match to your future.

The bottom line is that you see your owner, the fan base and yourself in the proper light. I think you're on to something.

Don't worry about Mangini driving away GMs. You want someone who shares Lerner's vision...and if they get to know Mangini and think he deserves another chance....then fine. Anybody who knows football is going to do their due diligence and not take the media's word for it (or JoeSixPat's).

I think that JoeSixPat is smart but he's not giving you facts. Bill Belicheck (and his assistant coaches) brought respectability back to Robert Kraft's franchise and now SixPat thinks that makes him the expert. You can't tease out who was responsible for what successes. The bottom line is that Kraft built a proper franchise and Lerner has had his ear in the past (including when he hired Mangini).

[Earl34]

Formerly Stone said:

Some people are able to realize that it's colder in winter than in summer without written proof. They make this leap of faith because they have experienced numerous winters and numerous summers and since damn near every winter is colder than damn near every summer. You, on the other hand, may need someone to write a book about it!

That's not entirely accurate. It isn't a "leap of faith". If you have experienced winter and summer then you've collected empiric data many times on the same experience by opening the window or stepping outside. To make an assumption about a far more complex process (e.g., the coach driving away GM candidates) than whether or not it is warm in July or cold in January, you would need a lot more data. What you have here is not data. It's hearsay. I'm not saying it would take a lot of measuring to prove or disprove the theory but right now your "n" is not even 1, it's zero.

[peterbell]

No potential GM candidate with interest will base his decision on Adam Schefter , Tony Grossi or Dan Marino. Despite the ranting of the sports media and the fanatics. A GM's interest will depend on how he feels Mangini visions fits his and vice versa. My opinion is you have it all wrong on EM..He won't be threatened by anyone, if the GM has a good draft history and the same vision of what a Browns player should be as EM then it will be a good marriage. Mangini is respected around the league as a good pro coach..People iinvolved in the NFL don't put a lot of stock in media types and their opinions. They really don't..

[JoeSixPat]

Zombo said:

The Browns have better all-time percentages than both the Red Sox and Patriots.

Zombo

Honestly I didn't get past this line until I broke down laughing!!!

What does that have to do with anything that I said??? Do you think the Red Sox might play a few more games each season than the Browns do too?

What's next - do you have kickball team or lacrosse team that you'd like to compare the Browns winning percentage to?

I gotta say, Steelers and Ravens fans must be LOVING your good attitude about this. But I do tend to think that there's more than a few potential GMs who are watching how Lerner and Mangnini are handling/slandering the Kokinis situation and making note of how they'll be treated if and when things don't work out.

That's not a media conspiracy guys.

But you've convinced me. Put those guys who want to see a change in their place. Mock them. Things are going perfectly to plan, just like Mangini wanted all along.

All is well

[BrownIndian]

So what are ur choices for GM Stone and Joe Six Pat ?

[Earl34]

Formerly Stone said:

The below is also not a leap of faith for those who have experienced the Browns since the merger.

To a degree, it's understandable.

First; Browns fans don't have a lot of experience to draw from with respect to a well run NFL organization.

Second; Browns fans are so defensive after all these years of ridicule that they automatically jump to the defense of anything associated with the Browns.

Third; Browns fans want so badly for it all to just "be better" that they aren't willing/able to admit that the problem still resides within the organization. They want to believe that the cancer has been removed and they will soon be back on track.

It's human nature.............

These are fair points except that they don't seem to be "jumping to the defense" of their coach who is being ridiculed moreso than any of the other handful of coaches who have poor records right now. Is anyone spending nearly the bandwith, airtime or paper to rip Steve Spagnuolo, Jeff Fisher, Jim Schwartz, Raheem Morris, Todd Haley, Tom Cable? Jim Zorn is under the gun but all of these coaches have only 1 or 2 wins yet the Browns coach is painted as some uber-incompetent because the suits at ESPN decided so.

Clark Judge actually came to Cleveland, sat down and interviewed the man. The result was a hopeful and balanced depiction. I can clue you in that Adam Schein, Jim Rome and the other "loudest mouths" on the issue have not. I am not saying that the first eight weeks weren't without lightning rods for controversy or that the results are what was planned for or wanted. What I am saying is that there's a witch hunt here and Browns fans need to wake up and think for themselves. Are you going to believe hearsay, rumors and faintly-drawn conclusions while omitting obvious logic?

Mangini could be as good as gone and perhaps he has or hasn't done enough to deserve it but I would expect a greater need for stability from a franchise that has changed coaches and GMs more frequently than underwear. One could argue that Mangini is doing what you want. He's cleaning house. He's changing back to Quinn. He's eased up on players. He just hasn't done it to the beat of your drum. He's done it to the beat of his and that's how any fan should prefer it.

[Earl34]

Formerly Stone said:

Your point about the loudest mouths is 100% valid. But the other coaches you mentioned, with the exception of Cable, are not part of an organization which is in complete disarray like the Browns.....that's why the scrutiny is high.

That's a good point but I think that the same old screaming about Mangini with little fact thrown in to support it doesn't bring anything new. It's similar to telling us that nothing new happened in the Brett Favre watch all summer long. Also, would it kill them to point out ANYTHING positive such as that the Browns are the second least penalized team in the league? It's not "wins" and ultimately means diddly except when you look at discipline as a building block to success. Everyone ridicules the method (running laps, etc) but the result is a disciplined team. If they could now cut down on turnovers....that's a big step to competitiveness and respectability. Another interesting positive is that while we have great return teams, we LEAD the league in allowing the fewest net yards per successful punt. Yes, I had to dig for that stat but it's something I think shows something...anything...that we can reasonably hang our hat on and say that we trust.

[JoeSixPat]

@brownindian said:

So what are ur choices for GM Stone and Joe Six Pat ?

I'd suggest starting with the candidate who know and understand that your QB's salary escalators have some pretty signficant impact on the salary cap, organizational cashflow and trade value of that player.

Mangini claims he knew nothing about Quinn's playing time bonus.

I guess under my criterial that would make every Cleveland Browns fan eligible, but not Mangini according to the thread "Mangini Article-CBS sports, The truth"

Q: There was a suggestion that he was nailed to the bench because of his contract and an escalator clause that rewards him the more he plays. Any truth to that?

Mangini: No, absolutely not. With all the different contracts ... I don't know what the incentives are. But that wouldn't make my decision [even if I did].

The truth is I'll bet you knew about it. And you're not troubled that your team's coach didn't?

[Earl34]

@joesixpat said:

The truth is I'll bet you knew about it. And you're not troubled that your team's coach didn't?

So, let's say he did know and didn't feel like spending $11 million dollars on a guy that he wasn't sold on. Is he supposed to admit that publicly? Are we going to be asking for the club president to show us the tax returns? The financial statements? Personally, I wouldn't mind if he did want to limit the escalators. Sounds like a good business decision.

[JoeSixPat]

@earl34 said:

So, let's say he did know and didn't feel like spending $11 million dollars on a guy that he wasn't sold on. Is he supposed to admit that publicly? Are we going to be asking for the club president to show us the tax returns? The financial statements? Personally, I wouldn't mind if he did want to limit the escalators. Sounds like a good business decision.

Well, the article is called "The Truth" by a member here.

You're saying that Mangni is lying?

If he's lying about that what else is he lying about?

And if he is telling the truth, then he may find out what Kokinis feels like to be fired "with cause" and watch as Lerner weasels out of his contract to Mangini. A coach who doesn't know about his starting QB's contract escalators that have a MAJOR impact on the salary cap and Quinn's trade value has just admitted his own incompetence. Lerner should have no problem dumping Mangini's contractual salary now.

[ballpeen]

@joesixpat said:

Well, the article is called "The Truth" by a member here.

You're saying that Mangni is lying?

If he's lying about that what else is he lying about?

And if he is telling the truth, then he may find out what Kokinis feels like to be fired "with cause" and watch as Lerner weasels out of his contract to Mangini. A coach who doesn't know about his starting QB's contract escalators that have a MAJOR impact on the salary cap and Quinn's trade value has just admitted his own incompetence. Lerner should have no problem dumping Mangini's contractual salary now.

Now you are just picking. Mangini isn't going to comment on Quinn and process in to all the decisions that were made.

So sure...maybe in the purest of sense, he lied, or didn't tell the complete truth, just as all coaches lie about things when asked about things they don't intend to answer. If the coach just clams up and says no comment, the he is ripped for that.

[JoeSixPat]

Zombo said:

I think you are mentally ill or something, so I try and not make fun of you, instead I try to explain things to you ... but ... you ... just ... won't ... let ...go.

Zombo

I am so touched by your compassion for me.

Never have I had another man show so much care for me. But I worry about you showing your true feelings like this. There's a lot of homophobics on this board and now they're going think YOU'RE gay, calling you Big Gay Zombo or somehting silly like that. (Frankly, I think guys like that make it clear they have some latent feelings that, unlike you they can't express, but I digress.)

Thank you! You've really made my day!

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

Formerly Stone said:

But!.......Lerner has to be able to convince the "czar" that he is serious about winning! This means a long term strategy which the "czar" agrees with and believes in. It also means that the "czar" has an open checkbook (Lerner's checkbook) to get the right people and he gets 5 years to make it happen. It will be two years before good coaches and free agents buy in to the plan so even in this situation, the Browns will struggle, but show signs of improvement, for a couple years. Are Browns fans able to accept this?

/quote]

So you'll give the new guy 5 years but you cant even give Mangini half a year. Your a pretty smart fella, this plan that your talking about sounds alot like Mangini's. Maybe we should give it a chance if even you agree with it. Are you able to accept that were already doing that?

[The Gipper]

Formerly Stone said:

Your point about the loudest mouths is 100% valid. But the other coaches you mentioned, with the exception of Cable, are not part of an organization which is in complete disarray like the Browns.....that's why the scrutiny is high.

Any team that is losing is considered to be an "organization in disarray." Perhaps it is the height of organization to delete the unproductive members of that organization. To Streamline, rethink, reeducate, revise. It may not give the outward appearance of stability, but that does not mean it is "disarray". Perhaps it is only "frustration".

[JoeSixPat]

nmills said:

So you'll give the new guy 5 years but you cant even give Mangini half a year. Your a pretty smart fella, this plan that your talking about sounds alot like Mangini's. Maybe we should give it a chance if even you agree with it. Are you able to accept that were already doing that?

I think typically what an owner is looking for when bringing in a new coach is a new energy and enthusiasm that is felt throughout the organization and out to the fan base... a feeling of optimism that the team, even if it's doing badly, is turning things around.

Is that the general feeling in Cleveland? Is the Kokinis hiring part of the plan? Are other hand-chosen people and players chosen by Mangini working out well? Do fans feel like Mangini has the "Parcells touch" of adapting his people skills, knowing when some players need to be pushed and some players need to be treated more gently, all while never losing sight of his goals? Of building a team oriented organization that gets everyone moving forward in the same direction?

Or is there more a feeling of secrecy and draconian "one way of doing things" in the Browns organization now.

Is the fan base generally as optimistic as they were upon the hiring of Mangini? Did Mangini, having been fired 8 days prior and having no other team interested in him, really give the Browns the boost they wanted?

[ballpeen]

@joesixpat said:

I think typically what an owner is looking for when bringing in a new coach is a new energy and enthusiasm that is felt throughout the organization and out to the fan base... a feeling of optimism that the team, even if it's doing badly, is turning things around.

Is that the general feeling in Cleveland? Is the Kokinis hiring part of the plan? Are other hand-chosen people and players chosen by Mangini working out well? Do fans feel like Mangini has the "Parcells touch" of adapting his people skills, knowing when some players need to be pushed and some players need to be treated more gently, all while never losing sight of his goals? Of building a team oriented organization that gets everyone moving forward in the same direction?

Or is there more a feeling of secrecy and draconian "one way of doing things" in the Browns organization now.

Is the fan base generally as optimistic as they were upon the hiring of Mangini? Did Mangini, having been fired 8 days prior and having no other team interested in him, really give the Browns the boost they wanted?

That is what you want and look for....not a owner with a plan.

If all a coach brings is fluff and enthusiasm, then we don't need him.

The problem is most fans think they could do a great job of building a team when the reality is most fans don't know squat about what it really takes.....beyond all the fluff that is.

[JoeSixPat]

@ballpeen said:

That is what you want and look for....not a owner with a plan.

If all a coach brings is fluff and enthusiasm, then we don't need him.

The problem is most fans think they could do a great job of building a team when the reality is most fans don't know squat about what it really takes.....beyond all the fluff that is.

well, as I said, the feeling of optimism and enthusiasm is tied to a feeling among the fans that the coach is turning things around.

If indeed the general sense in Cleveland is that all of this is part of Mangini's plan in terms of player management, front office decisions, the people he's hand-picked for strategic roles in the organization, that his OC and other coaches are doing a great job, that he's created an environment of excellence, great.

What you seem to be hearing from outside observers and inside sources is that that is NOT the case, and I think if things were going well I don't think you'd be hearing Lerner talk about bringing in a Czar.

The original point of this thread though is that Mangini's continued assertions that HE will continue to retain control on the direction of the organization is not helpful to attracting the best GMs/Czars out there

Indeed I think a GM/Czar not insistent on having the authority to fire and hire the head coach probably isn't worth having... especially in this case where the Coach/GM has not done a good job, presumably even by the owner's own assessment (or else he wouldn't need to hire a Czar).

[ballpeen]

Again...I don't think that is what he said...that is what some want to read.

Let's see how it pans out before we get all worked up over the deal.