Mangini driving away GM candidates
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So what are ur choices for GM Stone and Joe Six Pat ?
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Formerly Stone said:
The below is also not a leap of faith for those who have experienced the Browns since the merger.To a degree, it's understandable.
First; Browns fans don't have a lot of experience to draw from with respect to a well run NFL organization.
Second; Browns fans are so defensive after all these years of ridicule that they automatically jump to the defense of anything associated with the Browns.
Third; Browns fans want so badly for it all to just "be better" that they aren't willing/able to admit that the problem still resides within the organization. They want to believe that the cancer has been removed and they will soon be back on track.
It's human nature.............
These are fair points except that they don't seem to be "jumping to the defense" of their coach who is being ridiculed moreso than any of the other handful of coaches who have poor records right now. Is anyone spending nearly the bandwith, airtime or paper to rip Steve Spagnuolo, Jeff Fisher, Jim Schwartz, Raheem Morris, Todd Haley, Tom Cable? Jim Zorn is under the gun but all of these coaches have only 1 or 2 wins yet the Browns coach is painted as some uber-incompetent because the suits at ESPN decided so.
Clark Judge actually came to Cleveland, sat down and interviewed the man. The result was a hopeful and balanced depiction. I can clue you in that Adam Schein, Jim Rome and the other "loudest mouths" on the issue have not. I am not saying that the first eight weeks weren't without lightning rods for controversy or that the results are what was planned for or wanted. What I am saying is that there's a witch hunt here and Browns fans need to wake up and think for themselves. Are you going to believe hearsay, rumors and faintly-drawn conclusions while omitting obvious logic?
Mangini could be as good as gone and perhaps he has or hasn't done enough to deserve it but I would expect a greater need for stability from a franchise that has changed coaches and GMs more frequently than underwear. One could argue that Mangini is doing what you want. He's cleaning house. He's changing back to Quinn. He's eased up on players. He just hasn't done it to the beat of your drum. He's done it to the beat of his and that's how any fan should prefer it.
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Formerly Stone said:
Your point about the loudest mouths is 100% valid. But the other coaches you mentioned, with the exception of Cable, are not part of an organization which is in complete disarray like the Browns.....that's why the scrutiny is high.That's a good point but I think that the same old screaming about Mangini with little fact thrown in to support it doesn't bring anything new. It's similar to telling us that nothing new happened in the Brett Favre watch all summer long. Also, would it kill them to point out ANYTHING positive such as that the Browns are the second least penalized team in the league? It's not "wins" and ultimately means diddly except when you look at discipline as a building block to success. Everyone ridicules the method (running laps, etc) but the result is a disciplined team. If they could now cut down on turnovers....that's a big step to competitiveness and respectability. Another interesting positive is that while we have great return teams, we LEAD the league in allowing the fewest net yards per successful punt. Yes, I had to dig for that stat but it's something I think shows something...anything...that we can reasonably hang our hat on and say that we trust.
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So what are ur choices for GM Stone and Joe Six Pat ?
So what are ur choices for GM Stone and Joe Six Pat ?
I'd suggest starting with the candidate who know and understand that your QB's salary escalators have some pretty signficant impact on the salary cap, organizational cashflow and trade value of that player.
Mangini claims he knew nothing about Quinn's playing time bonus.
I guess under my criterial that would make every Cleveland Browns fan eligible, but not Mangini according to the thread "Mangini Article-CBS sports, The truth"
Q: There was a suggestion that he was nailed to the bench because of his contract and an escalator clause that rewards him the more he plays. Any truth to that?
Mangini: No, absolutely not. With all the different contracts ... I don't know what the incentives are. But that wouldn't make my decision [even if I did].
The truth is I'll bet you knew about it. And you're not troubled that your team's coach didn't?
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So what are ur choices for GM Stone and Joe Six Pat ?
I'd suggest starting with the candidate who know and understand that your QB's salary escalators have some pretty signficant impact on the salary cap, organizational cashflow and trade value of that player.
Mangini claims he knew nothing about Quinn's playing time bonus.
I guess under my criterial that would make every Cleveland Browns fan eligible, but not Mangini according to the thread "Mangini Article-CBS sports, The truth"
Q: There was a suggestion that he was nailed to the bench because of his contract and an escalator clause that rewards him the more he plays. Any truth to that?
Mangini: No, absolutely not. With all the different contracts ... I don't know what the incentives are. But that wouldn't make my decision [even if I did].
The truth is I'll bet you knew about it. And you're not troubled that your team's coach didn't?
The truth is I'll bet you knew about it. And you're not troubled that your team's coach didn't?
So, let's say he did know and didn't feel like spending $11 million dollars on a guy that he wasn't sold on. Is he supposed to admit that publicly? Are we going to be asking for the club president to show us the tax returns? The financial statements? Personally, I wouldn't mind if he did want to limit the escalators. Sounds like a good business decision.
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The truth is I'll bet you knew about it. And you're not troubled that your team's coach didn't?
So, let's say he did know and didn't feel like spending $11 million dollars on a guy that he wasn't sold on. Is he supposed to admit that publicly? Are we going to be asking for the club president to show us the tax returns? The financial statements? Personally, I wouldn't mind if he did want to limit the escalators. Sounds like a good business decision.
So, let's say he did know and didn't feel like spending $11 million dollars on a guy that he wasn't sold on. Is he supposed to admit that publicly? Are we going to be asking for the club president to show us the tax returns? The financial statements? Personally, I wouldn't mind if he did want to limit the escalators. Sounds like a good business decision.
Well, the article is called "The Truth" by a member here.
You're saying that Mangni is lying?
If he's lying about that what else is he lying about?
And if he is telling the truth, then he may find out what Kokinis feels like to be fired "with cause" and watch as Lerner weasels out of his contract to Mangini. A coach who doesn't know about his starting QB's contract escalators that have a MAJOR impact on the salary cap and Quinn's trade value has just admitted his own incompetence. Lerner should have no problem dumping Mangini's contractual salary now.
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So, let's say he did know and didn't feel like spending $11 million dollars on a guy that he wasn't sold on. Is he supposed to admit that publicly? Are we going to be asking for the club president to show us the tax returns? The financial statements? Personally, I wouldn't mind if he did want to limit the escalators. Sounds like a good business decision.
Well, the article is called "The Truth" by a member here.
You're saying that Mangni is lying?
If he's lying about that what else is he lying about?
And if he is telling the truth, then he may find out what Kokinis feels like to be fired "with cause" and watch as Lerner weasels out of his contract to Mangini. A coach who doesn't know about his starting QB's contract escalators that have a MAJOR impact on the salary cap and Quinn's trade value has just admitted his own incompetence. Lerner should have no problem dumping Mangini's contractual salary now.
Well, the article is called "The Truth" by a member here.
You're saying that Mangni is lying?
If he's lying about that what else is he lying about?
And if he is telling the truth, then he may find out what Kokinis feels like to be fired "with cause" and watch as Lerner weasels out of his contract to Mangini. A coach who doesn't know about his starting QB's contract escalators that have a MAJOR impact on the salary cap and Quinn's trade value has just admitted his own incompetence. Lerner should have no problem dumping Mangini's contractual salary now.
Now you are just picking. Mangini isn't going to comment on Quinn and process in to all the decisions that were made.
So sure...maybe in the purest of sense, he lied, or didn't tell the complete truth, just as all coaches lie about things when asked about things they don't intend to answer. If the coach just clams up and says no comment, the he is ripped for that.
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Zombo said:
I think you are mentally ill or something, so I try and not make fun of you, instead I try to explain things to you ... but ... you ... just ... won't ... let ...go.Zombo
I am so touched by your compassion for me.
Never have I had another man show so much care for me. But I worry about you showing your true feelings like this. There's a lot of homophobics on this board and now they're going think YOU'RE gay, calling you Big Gay Zombo or somehting silly like that. (Frankly, I think guys like that make it clear they have some latent feelings that, unlike you they can't express, but I digress.)
Thank you! You've really made my day!
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Formerly Stone said:
But!.......Lerner has to be able to convince the "czar" that he is serious about winning! This means a long term strategy which the "czar" agrees with and believes in. It also means that the "czar" has an open checkbook (Lerner's checkbook) to get the right people and he gets 5 years to make it happen. It will be two years before good coaches and free agents buy in to the plan so even in this situation, the Browns will struggle, but show signs of improvement, for a couple years. Are Browns fans able to accept this?
/quote]
So you'll give the new guy 5 years but you cant even give Mangini half a year. Your a pretty smart fella, this plan that your talking about sounds alot like Mangini's. Maybe we should give it a chance if even you agree with it. Are you able to accept that were already doing that?
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Formerly Stone said:
Your point about the loudest mouths is 100% valid. But the other coaches you mentioned, with the exception of Cable, are not part of an organization which is in complete disarray like the Browns.....that's why the scrutiny is high.Any team that is losing is considered to be an "organization in disarray." Perhaps it is the height of organization to delete the unproductive members of that organization. To Streamline, rethink, reeducate, revise. It may not give the outward appearance of stability, but that does not mean it is "disarray". Perhaps it is only "frustration".
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Formerly Stone said:
But!.......Lerner has to be able to convince the "czar" that he is serious about winning! This means a long term strategy which the "czar" agrees with and believes in. It also means that the "czar" has an open checkbook (Lerner's checkbook) to get the right people and he gets 5 years to make it happen. It will be two years before good coaches and free agents buy in to the plan so even in this situation, the Browns will struggle, but show signs of improvement, for a couple years. Are Browns fans able to accept this?
/quote]
So you'll give the new guy 5 years but you cant even give Mangini half a year. Your a pretty smart fella, this plan that your talking about sounds alot like Mangini's. Maybe we should give it a chance if even you agree with it. Are you able to accept that were already doing that?
nmills said:
So you'll give the new guy 5 years but you cant even give Mangini half a year. Your a pretty smart fella, this plan that your talking about sounds alot like Mangini's. Maybe we should give it a chance if even you agree with it. Are you able to accept that were already doing that?I think typically what an owner is looking for when bringing in a new coach is a new energy and enthusiasm that is felt throughout the organization and out to the fan base... a feeling of optimism that the team, even if it's doing badly, is turning things around.
Is that the general feeling in Cleveland? Is the Kokinis hiring part of the plan? Are other hand-chosen people and players chosen by Mangini working out well? Do fans feel like Mangini has the "Parcells touch" of adapting his people skills, knowing when some players need to be pushed and some players need to be treated more gently, all while never losing sight of his goals? Of building a team oriented organization that gets everyone moving forward in the same direction?
Or is there more a feeling of secrecy and draconian "one way of doing things" in the Browns organization now.
Is the fan base generally as optimistic as they were upon the hiring of Mangini? Did Mangini, having been fired 8 days prior and having no other team interested in him, really give the Browns the boost they wanted?
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nmills said:
So you'll give the new guy 5 years but you cant even give Mangini half a year. Your a pretty smart fella, this plan that your talking about sounds alot like Mangini's. Maybe we should give it a chance if even you agree with it. Are you able to accept that were already doing that?I think typically what an owner is looking for when bringing in a new coach is a new energy and enthusiasm that is felt throughout the organization and out to the fan base... a feeling of optimism that the team, even if it's doing badly, is turning things around.
Is that the general feeling in Cleveland? Is the Kokinis hiring part of the plan? Are other hand-chosen people and players chosen by Mangini working out well? Do fans feel like Mangini has the "Parcells touch" of adapting his people skills, knowing when some players need to be pushed and some players need to be treated more gently, all while never losing sight of his goals? Of building a team oriented organization that gets everyone moving forward in the same direction?
Or is there more a feeling of secrecy and draconian "one way of doing things" in the Browns organization now.
Is the fan base generally as optimistic as they were upon the hiring of Mangini? Did Mangini, having been fired 8 days prior and having no other team interested in him, really give the Browns the boost they wanted?
I think typically what an owner is looking for when bringing in a new coach is a new energy and enthusiasm that is felt throughout the organization and out to the fan base... a feeling of optimism that the team, even if it's doing badly, is turning things around.
Is that the general feeling in Cleveland? Is the Kokinis hiring part of the plan? Are other hand-chosen people and players chosen by Mangini working out well? Do fans feel like Mangini has the "Parcells touch" of adapting his people skills, knowing when some players need to be pushed and some players need to be treated more gently, all while never losing sight of his goals? Of building a team oriented organization that gets everyone moving forward in the same direction?
Or is there more a feeling of secrecy and draconian "one way of doing things" in the Browns organization now.
Is the fan base generally as optimistic as they were upon the hiring of Mangini? Did Mangini, having been fired 8 days prior and having no other team interested in him, really give the Browns the boost they wanted?
That is what you want and look for....not a owner with a plan.
If all a coach brings is fluff and enthusiasm, then we don't need him.
The problem is most fans think they could do a great job of building a team when the reality is most fans don't know squat about what it really takes.....beyond all the fluff that is.
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I think typically what an owner is looking for when bringing in a new coach is a new energy and enthusiasm that is felt throughout the organization and out to the fan base... a feeling of optimism that the team, even if it's doing badly, is turning things around.
Is that the general feeling in Cleveland? Is the Kokinis hiring part of the plan? Are other hand-chosen people and players chosen by Mangini working out well? Do fans feel like Mangini has the "Parcells touch" of adapting his people skills, knowing when some players need to be pushed and some players need to be treated more gently, all while never losing sight of his goals? Of building a team oriented organization that gets everyone moving forward in the same direction?
Or is there more a feeling of secrecy and draconian "one way of doing things" in the Browns organization now.
Is the fan base generally as optimistic as they were upon the hiring of Mangini? Did Mangini, having been fired 8 days prior and having no other team interested in him, really give the Browns the boost they wanted?
That is what you want and look for....not a owner with a plan.
If all a coach brings is fluff and enthusiasm, then we don't need him.
The problem is most fans think they could do a great job of building a team when the reality is most fans don't know squat about what it really takes.....beyond all the fluff that is.
That is what you want and look for....not a owner with a plan.
If all a coach brings is fluff and enthusiasm, then we don't need him.
The problem is most fans think they could do a great job of building a team when the reality is most fans don't know squat about what it really takes.....beyond all the fluff that is.
well, as I said, the feeling of optimism and enthusiasm is tied to a feeling among the fans that the coach is turning things around.
If indeed the general sense in Cleveland is that all of this is part of Mangini's plan in terms of player management, front office decisions, the people he's hand-picked for strategic roles in the organization, that his OC and other coaches are doing a great job, that he's created an environment of excellence, great.
What you seem to be hearing from outside observers and inside sources is that that is NOT the case, and I think if things were going well I don't think you'd be hearing Lerner talk about bringing in a Czar.
The original point of this thread though is that Mangini's continued assertions that HE will continue to retain control on the direction of the organization is not helpful to attracting the best GMs/Czars out there
Indeed I think a GM/Czar not insistent on having the authority to fire and hire the head coach probably isn't worth having... especially in this case where the Coach/GM has not done a good job, presumably even by the owner's own assessment (or else he wouldn't need to hire a Czar).
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Again...I don't think that is what he said...that is what some want to read.
Let's see how it pans out before we get all worked up over the deal.
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