ESPN's John Clayton Reporting Holmgren Will Fire Mangini
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What proof do we have he is any better than Carmen Policy and latte boy Dwight Clark? HOPE he is! I've always been a HOMER everytime we added an important position and it's come back to bite me.
If we fire Mangini for Jon Gruden, I'd hold off on the champagne celebrations. I've seen the West Coast offense without Montana and Young running them here pretty much the same way I've seen the 3-4 without Lawrence Taylor, Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson and Harry Carson.
I'm waiting for the return of innovation where a dude looks at the collective roster and says - we have a NUCLEUS of promising guys that we can FIND the right style and schemes for instead of cramming square pegs into round openings. By the time our team in transition wants to perfect every new fad - the league has caught up with these systems and outdated them if you will. SOMETIMES copycat leagues reward the innovators. AND in a division that has so many aggressive zone blitz schemes, I'm not sure a West Coast Offense is compatible with inexperienced QBs lacking Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Brent Jones. Come to think of it, we could really use talents like that in the vertical game before high 5 each other for another West Coast Offense coming to town minus the Jimmys and the Joes necessary for verticality.
This might not be fair but it's tough to shake the last image of Holmgren as GM in Seattle. I think the headline read "Sleepless in Seattle." There were rumors Parcells was interested in coming here; and I think he would have been more apt to KEEP the momentum we're seeing today BECAUSE of Mangini. You heard me, BECAUSE of Mangini. I think the biggest mistakes he's made is loyalty to Jamal Lewis and playing "I've a bunch of secrets" with the media. Again, I'm not saying I think Holmgren will fail - I've just never seen a business that interviews just 1 candidate for a Head Coaching job and there's no second interview or others interviewed. SAME thing here and then 3 years later - we're always asking was that REALLY the best person we could have hired. Who else was interviewed for such an important job here?
This is some of the BEST coaching I've seen in the 10 years (make it 11 if we count the 99 season). We've got virtual nobodies WINNING out there because guys like Rob Ryan (DC), Bryan Cox (dline), Brad Seeley (STs) and George Warhop (oline). When people auto-default to fire the OC every single day - it'sd hard to want to read their pount. Some of these guys would blindly hail Jon Gruden as the perfect fit here because he commincates with F-bombs and makes facial expressions like he's got a painful plop coming out the backdoor. Look at the offense he BUILT in Tampa - it got worse wqith every season as countless veterans took parting shots about hius Napoleon complex and inability to communicate. If you CAN communicate - you don't need to dress it up vulgarities, voice volume and facial experessions 24/7. The ONLY Superbowl I saw Tampa win was Monte Kiffen's defense putting 28 points on the board vrs the Oakland Raiders team that could NOT make the Superbowl until Gruden's 1st year away. More specifically, Bill Callahan was more effective with Oakland's offense and it seemed like alot of their BEST players wanted America to know that for some reason.
I guess if WCO minus the West Coast QB, WRs, FB and TEs returns, I'd rather have it be Marriucci for the main reason that Gruden's act got stale in Tampa to the point of coin flipping us for a #3 overall pick. I WOULD like to see my first offense that understands FULLBACKS block better than 205 pound RBs. The Rams got it right when they had a 205 pound RB, they kept a FB into to block and they used Marsall Faulk to bury a blitz. That's how a RB collects over a 1000 yards receiving AND rushing in 1 season. Meanwhile, they kept their QB pretty clean. BTW, I'm sure Michael Turner could inform the masses that bodyweight has nothing to do with why he can't get on the field this season. There's goers that big back never gets hurt theory eh? Trust me, Chris Johnson's 204 pounds is nearing 2000 rushing yards so I'm not buying this light guys can't run. James Brooks and Warrick Dunn never had issues with worklloads either.
- Tom F.
Tom,
You hit on a lot of my feelings here. My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good. I think one thing everyone can agree on that he really needs to hire a good scout/player personnel guy to run the draft. That's imperative.
But, yeah, I'm with you on the head coaching thing. I want Mangini to stick around for the reasons you said and more. What's more is that the media hasn't given me one, ONE, potential replacement that I would want more than I want the guy who is currently in charge.
In fact, I had a nightmare last night that Holmgren had fired Mangini and replaced him with (are you ready for this?) . . . Steve Spurrier. Not making that up.
Tom,
You hit on a lot of my feelings here. My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good. I think one thing everyone can agree on that he really needs to hire a good scout/player personnel guy to run the draft. That's imperative.
But, yeah, I'm with you on the head coaching thing. I want Mangini to stick around for the reasons you said and more. What's more is that the media hasn't given me one, ONE, potential replacement that I would want more than I want the guy who is currently in charge.
In fact, I had a nightmare last night that Holmgren had fired Mangini and replaced him with (are you ready for this?) . . . Steve Spurrier. Not making that up.
The last time we had a really good scout/personnel guy we had Savage giving us John Dunn and Travis Wilson.
Heck, look at Scott Pioli in KC. Supposedly he was a genius, but it looks like Haley may well be one and done with the talent that Pioli gave him to work with. Their draft was one stinker after another, and picking a 3-4 DE who can't stop the Browns dominate rushing attack #3 overall cant be helping their cause too much.
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Tom,
You hit on a lot of my feelings here. My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good. I think one thing everyone can agree on that he really needs to hire a good scout/player personnel guy to run the draft. That's imperative.
But, yeah, I'm with you on the head coaching thing. I want Mangini to stick around for the reasons you said and more. What's more is that the media hasn't given me one, ONE, potential replacement that I would want more than I want the guy who is currently in charge.
In fact, I had a nightmare last night that Holmgren had fired Mangini and replaced him with (are you ready for this?) . . . Steve Spurrier. Not making that up.
The last time we had a really good scout/personnel guy we had Savage giving us John Dunn and Travis Wilson.
Heck, look at Scott Pioli in KC. Supposedly he was a genius, but it looks like Haley may well be one and done with the talent that Pioli gave him to work with. Their draft was one stinker after another, and picking a 3-4 DE who can't stop the Browns dominate rushing attack #3 overall cant be helping their cause too much.
The last time we had a really good scout/personnel guy we had Savage giving us John Dunn and Travis Wilson.
Heck, look at Scott Pioli in KC. Supposedly he was a genius, but it looks like Haley may well be one and done with the talent that Pioli gave him to work with. Their draft was one stinker after another, and picking a 3-4 DE who can't stop the Browns dominate rushing attack #3 overall cant be helping their cause too much.
When Holmgren ran the Seattle drafts, he hit on 37% of the picks. That's a fact. I'm just sayin' that the more voices we have in that draft room the better and we better damn well have someone hired soon who will scout the hell out of the college players. Holmgren ain't it. He's not a scout by trade. He's more of an administrator, which is great, in my opinion.
And Savage ain't gettin' this job. But he did do well to bring in guys like Cribbs, McDonald, and Harrison who were late-round/FA guys. Yes, Wilson was a bust, no question. Savage's downfall was his FA spending, IMO. Crazy money for a lot of guys who didn't contribute here (Baxter, Bentley, Stallworth to name a few).
I just don't trust Holmgren to be the sole operator of the draft. Again, he's a great coach, but he's not Ernie Accorsi either.
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I really hope the Crypt Keeper is wrong about this.
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What proof do we have he is any better than Carmen Policy and latte boy Dwight Clark? HOPE he is! I've always been a HOMER everytime we added an important position and it's come back to bite me.
If we fire Mangini for Jon Gruden, I'd hold off on the champagne celebrations. I've seen the West Coast offense without Montana and Young running them here pretty much the same way I've seen the 3-4 without Lawrence Taylor, Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson and Harry Carson.
I'm waiting for the return of innovation where a dude looks at the collective roster and says - we have a NUCLEUS of promising guys that we can FIND the right style and schemes for instead of cramming square pegs into round openings. By the time our team in transition wants to perfect every new fad - the league has caught up with these systems and outdated them if you will. SOMETIMES copycat leagues reward the innovators. AND in a division that has so many aggressive zone blitz schemes, I'm not sure a West Coast Offense is compatible with inexperienced QBs lacking Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Brent Jones. Come to think of it, we could really use talents like that in the vertical game before high 5 each other for another West Coast Offense coming to town minus the Jimmys and the Joes necessary for verticality.
This might not be fair but it's tough to shake the last image of Holmgren as GM in Seattle. I think the headline read "Sleepless in Seattle." There were rumors Parcells was interested in coming here; and I think he would have been more apt to KEEP the momentum we're seeing today BECAUSE of Mangini. You heard me, BECAUSE of Mangini. I think the biggest mistakes he's made is loyalty to Jamal Lewis and playing "I've a bunch of secrets" with the media. Again, I'm not saying I think Holmgren will fail - I've just never seen a business that interviews just 1 candidate for a Head Coaching job and there's no second interview or others interviewed. SAME thing here and then 3 years later - we're always asking was that REALLY the best person we could have hired. Who else was interviewed for such an important job here?
This is some of the BEST coaching I've seen in the 10 years (make it 11 if we count the 99 season). We've got virtual nobodies WINNING out there because guys like Rob Ryan (DC), Bryan Cox (dline), Brad Seeley (STs) and George Warhop (oline). When people auto-default to fire the OC every single day - it'sd hard to want to read their pount. Some of these guys would blindly hail Jon Gruden as the perfect fit here because he commincates with F-bombs and makes facial expressions like he's got a painful plop coming out the backdoor. Look at the offense he BUILT in Tampa - it got worse wqith every season as countless veterans took parting shots about hius Napoleon complex and inability to communicate. If you CAN communicate - you don't need to dress it up vulgarities, voice volume and facial experessions 24/7. The ONLY Superbowl I saw Tampa win was Monte Kiffen's defense putting 28 points on the board vrs the Oakland Raiders team that could NOT make the Superbowl until Gruden's 1st year away. More specifically, Bill Callahan was more effective with Oakland's offense and it seemed like alot of their BEST players wanted America to know that for some reason.
I guess if WCO minus the West Coast QB, WRs, FB and TEs returns, I'd rather have it be Marriucci for the main reason that Gruden's act got stale in Tampa to the point of coin flipping us for a #3 overall pick. I WOULD like to see my first offense that understands FULLBACKS block better than 205 pound RBs. The Rams got it right when they had a 205 pound RB, they kept a FB into to block and they used Marsall Faulk to bury a blitz. That's how a RB collects over a 1000 yards receiving AND rushing in 1 season. Meanwhile, they kept their QB pretty clean. BTW, I'm sure Michael Turner could inform the masses that bodyweight has nothing to do with why he can't get on the field this season. There's goers that big back never gets hurt theory eh? Trust me, Chris Johnson's 204 pounds is nearing 2000 rushing yards so I'm not buying this light guys can't run. James Brooks and Warrick Dunn never had issues with worklloads either.
- Tom F.
Tom,
You hit on a lot of my feelings here. My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good. I think one thing everyone can agree on that he really needs to hire a good scout/player personnel guy to run the draft. That's imperative.
But, yeah, I'm with you on the head coaching thing. I want Mangini to stick around for the reasons you said and more. What's more is that the media hasn't given me one, ONE, potential replacement that I would want more than I want the guy who is currently in charge.
In fact, I had a nightmare last night that Holmgren had fired Mangini and replaced him with (are you ready for this?) . . . Steve Spurrier. Not making that up.
My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good.
Why was he not a good GM? And he was coaching at the time. I know everyone wants perfection, but it is just not possible. He is the best choice out there.
-
The last time we had a really good scout/personnel guy we had Savage giving us John Dunn and Travis Wilson.
Heck, look at Scott Pioli in KC. Supposedly he was a genius, but it looks like Haley may well be one and done with the talent that Pioli gave him to work with. Their draft was one stinker after another, and picking a 3-4 DE who can't stop the Browns dominate rushing attack #3 overall cant be helping their cause too much.
When Holmgren ran the Seattle drafts, he hit on 37% of the picks. That's a fact. I'm just sayin' that the more voices we have in that draft room the better and we better damn well have someone hired soon who will scout the hell out of the college players. Holmgren ain't it. He's not a scout by trade. He's more of an administrator, which is great, in my opinion.
And Savage ain't gettin' this job. But he did do well to bring in guys like Cribbs, McDonald, and Harrison who were late-round/FA guys. Yes, Wilson was a bust, no question. Savage's downfall was his FA spending, IMO. Crazy money for a lot of guys who didn't contribute here (Baxter, Bentley, Stallworth to name a few).
I just don't trust Holmgren to be the sole operator of the draft. Again, he's a great coach, but he's not Ernie Accorsi either.
When Holmgren ran the Seattle drafts, he hit on 37% of the picks. That's a fact. I'm just sayin' that the more voices we have in that draft room the better and we better damn well have someone hired soon who will scout the hell out of the college players. Holmgren ain't it. He's not a scout by trade. He's more of an administrator, which is great, in my opinion.
And Savage ain't gettin' this job. But he did do well to bring in guys like Cribbs, McDonald, and Harrison who were late-round/FA guys. Yes, Wilson was a bust, no question. Savage's downfall was his FA spending, IMO. Crazy money for a lot of guys who didn't contribute here (Baxter, Bentley, Stallworth to name a few).
I just don't trust Holmgren to be the sole operator of the draft. Again, he's a great coach, but he's not Ernie Accorsi either.
then we need some good scouting.
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Mangini isn't going anywhere..Clayton is an English major geek who never strapped on the pads.
You think Clayton wasn't slamming Holgrem near the end in Seattle..sure he was..You think MH
would tell Clayton anything..doubtful.
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I really hope the Crypt Keeper is wrong about this.
I really hope the Crypt Keeper is wrong about this.
i look at john clayton and i can't help to wonder if he spent the first 9 months of his life dodging a wire coat hanger
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I really hope the Crypt Keeper is wrong about this.
i look at john clayton and i can't help to wonder if he spent the first 9 months of his life dodging a wire coat hanger
i look at john clayton and i can't help to wonder if he spent the first 9 months of his life dodging a wire coat hanger
that's terrible.
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Mangini isn't going anywhere..Clayton is an English major geek who never strapped on the pads.
You think Clayton wasn't slamming Holgrem near the end in Seattle..sure he was..You think MH
would tell Clayton anything..doubtful.
Mangini isn't going anywhere..Clayton is an English major geek who never strapped on the pads.
You think Clayton wasn't slamming Holgrem near the end in Seattle..sure he was..You think MH
would tell Clayton anything..doubtful.
pete,
I hope you're right. I just don't have a good feeling about it.
I really hope these last two games go our way and the guys continue to fight for EM and themselves.
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My greatest fear is that Holmgren as GM in Cleveland will be what he was in Seattle: Not very good.
Why was he not a good GM? And he was coaching at the time. I know everyone wants perfection, but it is just not possible. He is the best choice out there.
Why was he not a good GM? And he was coaching at the time. I know everyone wants perfection, but it is just not possible. He is the best choice out there.
I'm not disagreeing with the hire. I think he will be a good leader for the organization. I'm just not sold on his drafting ability. He's not a scout by trade. Nobody argues this. But he is a good evaluator of coaches, no question.
Therefore, I am hoping for the following things:
1) Hire a good personnel director/scout for the draft
2) Work with EM
3) Open up the possibilities of additions to EM's staff that would help (Weis, Zorn, etc.)
4) For Czar Holmgren to tell the PD and other local hacks to stick it
...searching for Nev Chandler..."5,4,3,2,1, Touchdown Browns!! -
If Marty Morningwig is the Browns HC i'm done..mangini took over the most DYSFUNCTIONAL FRANCHISE in the NFL and has clearly made major strides to right this ship..Anyone who doesn't see that is kidding themselves, a Mangini hater or a low watt light bulb.or a dull tool in the shed.
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Why was he not a good GM? And he was coaching at the time. I know everyone wants perfection, but it is just not possible. He is the best choice out there.
I'm not disagreeing with the hire. I think he will be a good leader for the organization. I'm just not sold on his drafting ability. He's not a scout by trade. Nobody argues this. But he is a good evaluator of coaches, no question.
Therefore, I am hoping for the following things:
1) Hire a good personnel director/scout for the draft
2) Work with EM
3) Open up the possibilities of additions to EM's staff that would help (Weis, Zorn, etc.)
4) For Czar Holmgren to tell the PD and other local hacks to stick it
I'm not disagreeing with the hire. I think he will be a good leader for the organization. I'm just not sold on his drafting ability. He's not a scout by trade. Nobody argues this. But he is a good evaluator of coaches, no question.
Therefore, I am hoping for the following things:
1) Hire a good personnel director/scout for the draft
2) Work with EM
3) Open up the possibilities of additions to EM's staff that would help (Weis, Zorn, etc.)
4) For Czar Holmgren to tell the PD and other local hacks to stick it
Could quite be. I think he did well in the draft.
1999 - Lamar King
2000 - Shaun Alexander and Chris McIntosh
2001 - Steve Hutchinson, Ken Lucas, Orlando Huff, Floyd Womack
2002 - none
So 3 pro bowlers in 4 years? Not including the serviceable players taken in the 4th and above rounds. Not bad considering he was coaching at the time. Compare that with all the other teams and I would say he was in the top 10 for those 4 years. Yes he did draft 2 busts Koren Robinson (pro bowl 05 though) and Jeremy Stevens.
I do agree if he can get someone to look into character a bit more, which I think he will, I think he is going to draft great!
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Is there anything we (as fans and as members of the Brown's Board) can do to send a message to Holmgren and Lerner that we want EM to be given the chance he deserves? Can the Browns Board pin a thread where we can voice our concern and send it with everyone's comments to their respective offices?
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Is there anything we (as fans and as members of the Brown's Board) can do to send a message to Holmgren and Lerner that we want EM to be given the chance he deserves? Can the Browns Board pin a thread where we can voice our concern and send it with everyone's comments to their respective offices?
Is there anything we (as fans and as members of the Brown's Board) can do to send a message to Holmgren and Lerner that we want EM to be given the chance he deserves? Can the Browns Board pin a thread where we can voice our concern and send it with everyone's comments to their respective offices?
Stan..i believe you have an assignment..Great idea Frenchie
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If Marty Morningwig is the Browns HC i'm done..mangini took over the most DYSFUNCTIONAL FRANCHISE in the NFL and has clearly made major strides to right this ship..Anyone who doesn't see that is kidding themselves, a Mangini hater or a low watt light bulb.or a dull tool in the shed.
If Marty Morningwig is the Browns HC i'm done..mangini took over the most DYSFUNCTIONAL FRANCHISE in the NFL and has clearly made major strides to right this ship..Anyone who doesn't see that is kidding themselves, a Mangini hater or a low watt light bulb.or a dull tool in the shed.
I agree, that's why I cannot imagine why the Walrus wouldn't keep Mangini for at least another year. Holmgren has got to recognize progress when he sees it. And considering the fact that his contract may be for 10 years, it can only help him to give the coach another year. Now, if he were under a 3 year deal, I could see him wanting to get his own guy in here and sprint to the finish. Lerner has let him know with the 10 year deal that he is in it for the long-haul and so he shouldn't be rushed to make rash, uneducated decisions.
How does Morningwig still have job offers in the NFL?
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
I wouldn't be worried if it comes out of Clayton's mouth, but if Schefter says it, then that's when we should start to be worried about Mangini.
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Is there anything we (as fans and as members of the Brown's Board) can do to send a message to Holmgren and Lerner that we want EM to be given the chance he deserves? Can the Browns Board pin a thread where we can voice our concern and send it with everyone's comments to their respective offices?
Is there anything we (as fans and as members of the Brown's Board) can do to send a message to Holmgren and Lerner that we want EM to be given the chance he deserves? Can the Browns Board pin a thread where we can voice our concern and send it with everyone's comments to their respective offices?
I think the fact that a blackout was narrowly averted just a few weeks ago was taken by Lerner as a loud and clear message by the fans. Ticket sales and profits are nearly everything to an owner.
He responded by taking away GM duties from Mangini (or at least the power to choose the GM as he did with Kokinis) and bring in Holmgren to do what HOLMGREN thinks needs to be done - not the owner, and not the fans.
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