Does Mangini really deserve another season?
-
I think that Mangini handled several personnel issues terribly (QB, WR, at the very least). Not to mention the revolving door in our defensive backfield. What we're seeing late in the season is promising (3 wins in a row, a shot at winning 5 of the last 6). I think there are two ways to look at this:
1: Mangini laid the foundation for something very good. It's just now paying off.
2. The Browns had the pieces, but Mangini mishandled them until recently.
I'm tempted to think it's a bit more of the second.
Here are my real concerns:
1. Quinn should have started all season, from preseason, with full blessings from Mangini.
2. When Lewis looked like he did, his carries should have been reduced much sooner.
3. Robiskie should have been playing all along.
4. Any TE option should have been explored. Ours flat out sucked until Moore came along.
5. DBs, like the QB situation, need a bit of confidence from their coach. You're left on an island a lot. If you aren't the strongest player mentally, knowing that your coach has your back can pick you up after a blown coverage. We haven't had that.
6. Playcalling. Wow.
Here are my real concerns:
1. Quinn should have started all season, from preseason, with full blessings from Mangini.
.
Sorry I stopped reading here.
1. Did you really watch the first 3 games of the year or just read about them in the paper?
2. Yes or No answer please, I would pay BQ the $11 myn he was due this yr because of his escalator and the $9 myn he would be guaranteed next year if I would have committed to him all year, it would have been worth it.
-
Yes, he deserves another season.
Regarding the QB controversy. Brady had the chance to grab that job by the throat even if he had only played as a top 20 QB. Instead he sucked big time and really showed no improvement during that time. You cannot leave a QB in week after week who is sucking and expect the team to play hard. It wasn't all Brady's fault but you owe a change to the other players who are working their butts off in every game. He gave Anderson a chance and when that failed he gave the reigns back to Brady. He did not leave one QB in but making it clear that #2 could come in at halftime if things weren't going well.
He gave each QB a legitimate chance and neither of them has proved anything. Hasn't Brady had two season ending injuries after only starting about eight games?
-
I just heard the Walrus on the radio, it sounded like he is leaning towards letting Mangini go.
-
It doesn't matter to me that he beat some weaker teams (Pittsburgh as well). No one gets credit when they lose to good teams. You play whoever is on the schedule. When the Pats went 16-0 in the regular season, did it matter that two wins were against the Bills?
I'm not buying that argument.
The players are playing hard and you (as an outsider) cannot determine whether they are playing for their coaches or themselves. There have been quotes (Matt Roth's comes to mind) that explains that they want to win for Ryan and Mangini. Take it for what it's worth. He could be telling the truth or he could be lying. We'll never know. The bottom line is that they're playing hard for the Cleveland Browns.
I am not going to act surprised if Eric Mangini loses his job but I think that this is a better team than sixteen weeks ago. I think that you can argue all you want about him handling the personnel in a way that you disliked but you also don't have all of the facts that the coaches have. There were plenty of posters on here in weeks 1-3 complaining that Harrison wasn't picking up the blitz. Now, everyone is bashing the coaching staff for not playing him more before now. How do we know that the benching of Jerome Harrison didn't lead to the extra effort it took to both get into the lineup and excel?
If Mike Holmgren wants a WCO/43 guy, then Mangini is gone for sure. I don't think that's fair but life isn't fair.
If Mike Holmgren says "My ego isn't so big that I am going to can a guy who's making progress as long as that guy is willing to work with me and subject to my rules." then I am okay with that too.
If Mike Holmgren gets rid of Eric Mangini because he isn't impressed, well, then there's going to be some debate especially if Marty Morningwheg (?sp) is his guy.
Perhaps Mike Holmgren waiting until next week is because he's thinking about giving Mangini a chance to continue if he'll agree to some changes in his staff.
-
Here is another way to look at this situation, what if mangini can not handle taking orders and having to answer to the prez and gm after being stripped of all the power he had?
-
I think Mangini should stay in Cleveland.
-
Here are my real concerns:
1. Quinn should have started all season, from preseason, with full blessings from Mangini.
.
Sorry I stopped reading here.
1. Did you really watch the first 3 games of the year or just read about them in the paper?
2. Yes or No answer please, I would pay BQ the $11 myn he was due this yr because of his escalator and the $9 myn he would be guaranteed next year if I would have committed to him all year, it would have been worth it.
Sorry I stopped reading here.
1. Did you really watch the first 3 games of the year or just read about them in the paper?
2. Yes or No answer please, I would pay BQ the $11 myn he was due this yr because of his escalator and the $9 myn he would be guaranteed next year if I would have committed to him all year, it would have been worth it.
Shame you stopped reading when you did. You missed a nice post. Do me the courtesy of finishing reading it and I'll gladly answer your question.
-
Here is another way to look at this situation, what if mangini can not handle taking orders and having to answer to the prez and gm after being stripped of all the power he had?
Here is another way to look at this situation, what if mangini can not handle taking orders and having to answer to the prez and gm after being stripped of all the power he had?
Which is another way of saying "I want my guy in here who will do what I tell him to do. I don't have time to be the coach but I have enough time to tell him what to do"
-
100% yes.
If Holmgren is as smart as people are saying he is he won't even think about pulling the plug on Mangini after this season.
-
Here is another way to look at this situation, what if mangini can not handle taking orders and having to answer to the prez and gm after being stripped of all the power he had?
Which is another way of saying "I want my guy in here who will do what I tell him to do. I don't have time to be the coach but I have enough time to tell him what to do"
Which is another way of saying "I want my guy in here who will do what I tell him to do. I don't have time to be the coach but I have enough time to tell him what to do"
Huh? How did you come up with this response to my post? When Lerner originally hired Mangini, he wanted all of the power. That is why he picked Kokinis to be his gm, so he could control everything and use those individuals that he brought in like puppets on a string.
What I'm asking is how will Mangini be now that he is under a true NFL structure where the coach isn't in charge of it all?
Also, Holmgren clearly stated that while he has the final decision, collective decision making is what he believes is the correct format to use for a fo to be successful, so your comment is off base (there's no reason to believe otherwise at this point).
-
My only doubt is: this year he turned the place upside down, which you can only do once in a franchise.
The lower tier players seemed to respond pretty well and what we have today is probably the best one HC can take out of such roster.
With 2009 season the "unleash hell in the locker room" option is gone.
He has to build on what he has.
I think he can do it but I'm not 100% sure.
-
Mangini inherited a lazy soft team from RAC. He changed the entire way of coaching. He got rid of the people who didn't want to do it his way, and has established a team that plays its heart out. This team has been improving. Players who don't like the coach don't perform. Remember Palmer's second year? We got blown out virtually the last few games with players who didn't care. This team is making a statement. They want Mangini to stay. You don't get rid of a coach after only one season. I would give him minimum of one more season. I think he will do good.
-
Of course they are playing for pride and their jobs. It's what I said when when people all over Mangini that the team had quit on him. Now that they are playing hard people are finding a new way to criticize Mangini. Rucker's right. The point is that players really don't play for their coaches. But if a team wins, is well prepared, and is put in situations to be successful that's coaching. Against KC Robiskie was a force on special teams. Where were all the people that chided Mangini for insisting that he do so? Special teams won that game and great special teams give teams a huge advantage. In the last three games our QBs have managed the game. Does anybody remember all the motion and delay of game penalties we had last year.
The team is composed. Our disguise defense is taking hold. We're making up for our lack of talent with scheme. Guys like Bernanrd and Trusnik are looking like they can be major contributors going forward. Mangini, BTW had the eye to pick up Roth when Parcells absolutely screwed the pooch in cutting this guy. This isn't a fluke. He was a second round pick who was HUGE in their 11-5 year last season. If this is an uncapped year, he's restricted as a free agent. Meaning we can tender him and we get draft compensation if he signs with another team. Ummmm, DUH! I guarantee you that Belichick would LOVE to have this guy. He's been amazing at setting the edge and has a beastly bull rush.
Anyway, here's the thing with Harrison. We went through 3 QB injuries last year because we couldn't protect our QBs. As soon as he showed he could pick up the blitz, Harrison got his playing time.
And don't forget that we ran up 170 plus yards against the number 1 rush defense in the NFL on a night where no one could throw and in that game our major contributors were Jennings and Cribbs. The line play has improved and most knowledgeable football people will tell you that an offensive line needs to play together for a while to jell. Mack has REALLY emerged in the second half of this season. But the way to negatively spin this is: why didn't Harrison get these touches earlier?
Harrison's been fantastic in the last two games, but his fresh legs in the 14th and 15th weeks of the season haven't hurt. It's really not realistic not to take this into consideration. I remember Lee Suggs having a similar end to a season a few years back. And in both Pitt (against a really good rush defense) and Oakland (a pretty bad one) our defense played strong and our QBs did not turn the ball over. We played from ahead and were able to get the RBs a ton of carries where they racked up a ton of yards.
As for Jamal, the guy was a team leader and Mangini has to deal with locker room issues. He had to give Lewis every opportunity to succeed and really was limited in options. Harrison was limited in participation at practice the week following the Bengals game and had an inexcusable "ball security" lapse that cost the Browns a TD the other way (and the game considering the D otherwise pretty much shut down the Cincy offense). He had a pretty big fumble in the Oakland game as well.
Harrison deserves a ton of credit. He's hit the hole fast and taken advantage of this opportunity. Things that Mangini has done over the course of this season, however, has contributed to that success.
Hopefully, he keeps working so that he doesn't put the ball on the carpet.
-
Of course they are playing for pride and their jobs. It's what I said when when people all over Mangini that the team had quit on him. Now that they are playing hard people are finding a new way to criticize Mangini. Rucker's right. The point is that players really don't play for their coaches. But if a team wins, is well prepared, and is put in situations to be successful that's coaching. Against KC Robiskie was a force on special teams. Where were all the people that chided Mangini for insisting that he do so? Special teams won that game and great special teams give teams a huge advantage. In the last three games our QBs have managed the game. Does anybody remember all the motion and delay of game penalties we had last year.
The team is composed. Our disguise defense is taking hold. We're making up for our lack of talent with scheme. Guys like Bernanrd and Trusnik are looking like they can be major contributors going forward. Mangini, BTW had the eye to pick up Roth when Parcells absolutely screwed the pooch in cutting this guy. This isn't a fluke. He was a second round pick who was HUGE in their 11-5 year last season. If this is an uncapped year, he's restricted as a free agent. Meaning we can tender him and we get draft compensation if he signs with another team. Ummmm, DUH! I guarantee you that Belichick would LOVE to have this guy. He's been amazing at setting the edge and has a beastly bull rush.
Anyway, here's the thing with Harrison. We went through 3 QB injuries last year because we couldn't protect our QBs. As soon as he showed he could pick up the blitz, Harrison got his playing time.
And don't forget that we ran up 170 plus yards against the number 1 rush defense in the NFL on a night where no one could throw and in that game our major contributors were Jennings and Cribbs. The line play has improved and most knowledgeable football people will tell you that an offensive line needs to play together for a while to jell. Mack has REALLY emerged in the second half of this season. But the way to negatively spin this is: why didn't Harrison get these touches earlier?
Harrison's been fantastic in the last two games, but his fresh legs in the 14th and 15th weeks of the season haven't hurt. It's really not realistic not to take this into consideration. I remember Lee Suggs having a similar end to a season a few years back. And in both Pitt (against a really good rush defense) and Oakland (a pretty bad one) our defense played strong and our QBs did not turn the ball over. We played from ahead and were able to get the RBs a ton of carries where they racked up a ton of yards.
As for Jamal, the guy was a team leader and Mangini has to deal with locker room issues. He had to give Lewis every opportunity to succeed and really was limited in options. Harrison was limited in participation at practice the week following the Bengals game and had an inexcusable "ball security" lapse that cost the Browns a TD the other way (and the game considering the D otherwise pretty much shut down the Cincy offense). He had a pretty big fumble in the Oakland game as well.
Harrison deserves a ton of credit. He's hit the hole fast and taken advantage of this opportunity. Things that Mangini has done over the course of this season, however, has contributed to that success.
Hopefully, he keeps working so that he doesn't put the ball on the carpet.
Of course they are playing for pride and their jobs. It's what I said when when people all over Mangini that the team had quit on him. Now that they are playing hard people are finding a new way to criticize Mangini.
Exactly.
At this point every player in the league not on his way to the playoffs should think about his job and his self respect.
If they don't care, they suck and I want someone else at the position.
These newer guys are Mangini's guys and if they play hard for him and continue to learn and improve then great.
Lewis quit because Lewis was washed up. Pure and simple. He used the practice regimen as an excuse.
That isn't a good example for any team captain to show the rookies and I'm glad to see guys with that attitude gone..
WSS
-
Mr. Banks, you have done it again. BRAVO!! You need you're own web-site or at least take Grossi's job.
Excellent observations on Harrison and Robo. People think these players were this good all along and were just over-looked. It never occurs to some people that they were being coached up and got playing time when they were prepared/earned it! Lewis and Jennings were getting more touches because, they don't put the ball on the floor and are better blockers. Which leads me to my next point. Holmgren has got to see what Mangini has done, and is doing with this team across the board. I feel like if he fires Mangini it would all be based on him wanting his own guys in here for the sake of ego. And that would really, really concern me.
-
I just heard the Walrus on the radio, it sounded like he is leaning towards letting Mangini go.
I just heard the Walrus on the radio, it sounded like he is leaning towards letting Mangini go.
That's funny. I heard the same thing and drew the opposite conclusion.
At the very beginning it sounded like Holmgren was saying that he would fire Mangini. He said making an announcement now wouldn't be fair to Eric, since he was at the end of his first season and the team was clearly responding to him.
Then, as the conversation went on, he started referencing Mangini specifically when talking about decisions regarding other aspects of the team going forward. I thought it was telling when he said something like "both Eric and I want the same thing for this team" and "I think Eric likes some of the young players that he has on this roster and believes that he can build with them." Why would he say that if he's leaning towards canning Mangini? In fact, from the second half of the interview on, I thought Walrus's statements clearly suggested that he was thinking of the Browns going forward with Mangini as a key component. It surprised me.
The question about the schemes was interesting. It sounded like he does want the WCO or elements of it in his offense. He talked about "convincing the coach" and suggested that he would collaborate with the coach as opposed to directing him. He said several times that he will not be a "coach on the field", and that its his job to "help the coach succeed", which I also thought was interesting.
I think a lot will depend on Walrus's "sit down" with Mangini next Monday. My guess is that if he and Mangini come to a meeting of the minds that will include bringing in a strong offensive coordinator and setting guidelines with respect to roles between Walrus his OC and Mangini, Mangini will get a chance to continue as head coach. Pure speculation, but I'd think that that would mean we'll transition our offense next season, but will retain a 3-4, keeping Mangini and Ryan.
I also read between the lines that he doesn't think much of Quinn. After a question about Quinn, he re-directed by saying that Anderson had a good game against the 'hawks a couple years back and that he really knew more of Quinn from college (without saying anything positive).
When asked a question, Holmgren said he doesn't want to blow up this roster. To me, I think we'd have to to go to a 4-3 considering our lack of DEs and 4-3 LBers. I think you can walk this line. Our biggest needs on D are corner and safety who are not scheme dependent. Add an ILB who is equally suited for the 3-4 and 4-3 and you can draft for the future and not worry too much about setting back the defense.
My conclusion was that if Holmgren and Mangini can agree on Holmgren's vision going forward, he'll keep Mangini. I also think that he want to be very careful to let people believe that it was a very deliberate decision and not something Lerner told him to do.
That's my take.
-
Thanks again Banks, one issue I have though. Its about the WCO. It seems to me that almost every team in the league runs some version of the west coast offense. Here's why....
TEs now need to be able to block and catch in this league
RBs now need to be strong in all 3 phases, run, block, and catch.
Outside of number 1 WRs, they are all required to catch passes underneath the zone and run after the catch.
I feel like all the WCO offense was, they started utilizing the RBs and TEs more. And the passing game befoer Walsh was used for 15 yards or more and now teams look underneath all the time. With all of that said, Mangini already has a lot of elements of the WCO in place now. In fact, almost all teams run a Hybrid offense. There is almost no pure Run&Shoot, WCO, or No Huddle in the league. Each team is a mixture of all of those things. The strength of OCs now is play-calling more than philosophy. So, there should be no problem between Mangini and Holmgren regarding philosophy. Plus, I don't think Holmgren will get too involved in the scheme anyways. Like he said, he's a tie-breaker. Finally, how successful was Holmgren's offense once Alexander went downhill? It seems like Holmgren may be the one who may need to conform rather than Mangini.
What do you think?
-
Thanks again Banks, one issue I have though. Its about the WCO. It seems to me that almost every team in the league runs some version of the west coast offense. Here's why....
TEs now need to be able to block and catch in this league
RBs now need to be strong in all 3 phases, run, block, and catch.
Outside of number 1 WRs, they are all required to catch passes underneath the zone and run after the catch.
I feel like all the WCO offense was, they started utilizing the RBs and TEs more. And the passing game befoer Walsh was used for 15 yards or more and now teams look underneath all the time. With all of that said, Mangini already has a lot of elements of the WCO in place now. In fact, almost all teams run a Hybrid offense. There is almost no pure Run&Shoot, WCO, or No Huddle in the league. Each team is a mixture of all of those things. The strength of OCs now is play-calling more than philosophy. So, there should be no problem between Mangini and Holmgren regarding philosophy. Plus, I don't think Holmgren will get too involved in the scheme anyways. Like he said, he's a tie-breaker. Finally, how successful was Holmgren's offense once Alexander went downhill? It seems like Holmgren may be the one who may need to conform rather than Mangini.
What do you think?
What do you think?
I think you are right in many respects. Most of the more sophisticated NFL offenses blend aspects of different offensive systems, including the WCO. New England and to a lesser degree Pitt run an Air-Erhardt type offense that concentrates on spreading the field horizontally using WCO-type concepts. The offense that the Vikings run is more similar than dissimilar to this. In Rothlisberger, Brady and Favre, you have three incredibly accurate QBs that can spread the field horizontally, isolate mismatches in coverage, and then go over the top. They can pass to set up the pass.
The Eagles under Reid/Morningweig are probably the most extreme example of a team that passes horizontally to set up the vertical pass.
Holmgren said not to label his offense a "coast" offense -- that it too was a blending.
The Jets run a more traditional Perkins-Erhardt offense, which we've gravitated towards as the season has progressed. It's fundamentally much different from a WCO in that we have several single receiver formations using Cribbs where we bunch the field. WCO systems, you will not see that.
What I think is different about the root philosophy is that Holmgren will want to spread the field horizontally with formations most if not all the time. If Mangini had his druthers, I'd guess you'd see more bunch formations and power football . . . especially in December.
I think from the center of our offense line out left and Womack will be fine for Holgren's WCO. Vickers is probably an ideal WCO fullback. Our backs (Harrison/Davis) will probably be serviceable at worst. I doubt either of our QBs is accurate enough to be successful in the WCO, though. Dez White all of a sudden would become a real possibility with the #5-7 pick. Evan Moore has a chance. A 3rd round draft pick like Dennis Pitta, though, seems likely.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login