Holmgren's Decision Made

Thaak

@ballpeen said:
I will say this...Holmgren said something about checking ego's at the door...and I agree. But coaches have ego's about "their" coaching tree, and it seems like Mike might have a bit of a ego about his and would rather see one of "his" guys make good over a Bellicheck guy.
Just food for thought.

Just saying

He also said, he doesn't care about system, WCO or 3-4, or whatever... he just wants to win. This a most telling comment I heard in today's press conference.

ballpeen

@thaak said:
He also said, he doesn't care about system, WCO or 3-4, or whatever... he just wants to win. This a most telling comment I heard in today's press conference.

It was a positive....I don't think anything is set in stone at this point....at least if what we heard can be taken at face value.

Riffer X

Something telling to me is how Holmgren didn't get involved after his hiring. Seems like he would have wanted to be here firsthand to see what the general aura was in Berea with the players and staff. Yeah, he says he wants to take some time to evaluate things but more than likely that appears to be a halfass couple of days of going through the motions.

I'm not too sure Mangie agrees to many stipulations, he is a system guy who believes in what he is doing. There has got to be a way for these guys to come together, cuz this is going to give me the same feeling as when we broke the bank for DA, it could literally set the franchise back another two to three years. We finally have a semblance of power football around here which is what our division and climate is all about, yet we want to tear it down and go West Coast? The defense could sustain a switch, but I really liked the way they responded to Ryan and it looked like he was finding a comfort zone with being aggressive.

I don't like this, it reeks of another bad decision by Lerner, but that doesn't mean I don't like Holmgren either. If Mangie is fired, this team is going to suck bad next year folks, that is the bottom line.

dawgpound3

@riffer-x said:
Something telling to me is how Holmgren didn't get involved after his hiring. Seems like he would have wanted to be here firsthand to see what the general aura was in Berea with the players and staff. Yeah, he says he wants to take some time to evaluate things but more than likely that appears to be a halfass couple of days of going through the motions.
I'm not too sure Mangie agrees to many stipulations, he is a system guy who believes in what he is doing. There has got to be a way for these guys to come together, cuz this is going to give me the same feeling as when we broke the bank for DA, it could literally set the franchise back another two to three years. We finally have a semblance of power football around here which is what our division and climate is all about, yet we want to tear it down and go West Coast? The defense could sustain a switch, but I really liked the way they responded to Ryan and it looked like he was finding a comfort zone with being aggressive.

I don't like this, it reeks of another bad decision by Lerner, but that doesn't mean I don't like Holmgren either. If Mangie is fired, this team is going to suck bad next year folks, that is the bottom line.

Did you even hear what Holmgren even said? Did you? He said that his so-called system was irrevelant, it didn't matter. His goal was to win.

Riffer X

@dawgpound3 said:
Did you even hear what Holmgren even said? Did you? He said that his so-called system was irrevelant, it didn't matter. His goal was to win.

I don't believe everything these guys say, might have something to do with being a fan for 35 years. Sure, he may be willing to tweak it some, but the overall issue is whether or not Mangie will give in to not having total autonomy. Whoever the GM is will probably have something to say about systems don't you think?

dawgpound3

@riffer-x said:
I don't believe everything these guys say, might have something to do with being a fan for 35 years. Sure, he may be willing to tweak it some, but the overall issue is whether or not Mangie will give in to not having total autonomy. Whoever the GM is will probably have something to say about systems don't you think?

I think the thing is that the offense now already has WCO elements. There are no true West Coast offenses.

rich4eagle

Metcalf_FTW said:
I think Holmgren may be a mistake.

you may have hit a home run.........he is no football genius just been on the good side of things in his time

Thaak

@rich4eagle said:
you may have hit a home run.........he is no football genius just been on the good side of things in his time

Who let the wet dish rag back in?

mopaji

@ballpeen said:
I will say this...Holmgren said something about checking ego's at the door...and I agree. But coaches have ego's about "their" coaching tree, and it seems like Mike might have a bit of a ego about his and would rather see one of "his" guys make good over a Bellicheck guy.
Just food for thought.

Just saying

I couldn't agree more. I was really hoping Holmgren would just worry about the roster and trust Mangini to run the team. Now, it seems like Mikey may have a bigger ego than Mangini, and perhaps he's the one who should get on board with Mangini's process, not the other way around. Mangini can afford to play hardball with him because he will get hired again somewhere else, and he will be successful. What scares me is that he'll play too rough at the meeting and we'll lose our coach.

I find it curious though that Holmgren has one of his boys coming in to interview for the GM position on the same day he is meeting with the coach? Sounds to me like TWO guys must approve of Mangini and I am really afraid that will not happen. It is very possible that we are gonna be F'd. All because Lerner hit the panic sitch in the middle of a rebuilding year, instead of letting the process play out. He vowed to bring in a czar, instead of just letting the one he hired do the job. Now, we're back to square one. If Mangini goes, EVERY player who's contract is up, will go. How could they have faith in an orginization as schizophrenic as this one. And we'll get to watch another coach butcher a 5 year plan that sets us back, yet again.

mopaji

@dawgpound3 said:
I think the thing is that the offense now already has WCO elements. There are no true West Coast offenses.

Mike alluded to that today

dawgpound3

@mopaji said:
I couldn't agree more. I was really hoping Holmgren would just worry about the roster and trust Mangini to run the team. Now, it seems like Mikey may have a bigger ego than Mangini, and perhaps he's the one who should get on board with Mangini's process, not the other way around. Mangini can afford to play hardball with him because he will get hired again somewhere else, and he will be successful. What scares me is that he'll play too rough at the meeting and we'll lose our coach.
I find it curious though that Holmgren has one of his boys coming in to interview for the GM position on the same day he is meeting with the coach? Sounds to me like TWO guys must approve of Mangini and I am really afraid that will not happen. It is very possible that we are gonna be F'd. All because Lerner hit the panic sitch in the middle of a rebuilding year, instead of letting the process play out. He vowed to bring in a czar, instead of just letting the one he hired do the job. Now, we're back to square one. If Mangini goes, EVERY player who's contract is up, will go. How could they have faith in an organization as schizophrenic as this one. And we'll get to watch another coach butcher a 5 year plan that sets us back, yet again.

I think Holmgren likes Mangini. I just think it depends on the meeting tomorrow. It's a shame it had to go down this. It's a really tough decision. I think Holmgren will give Mangini another year.

Riffer X

Holmgren seems like a sensible guy, I think he'll do the right thing but Mangie has to give in some.

Solon16

@ballpeen said:
I will say this...Holmgren said something about checking ego's at the door...and I agree. But coaches have ego's about "their" coaching tree, and it seems like Mike might have a bit of a ego about his and would rather see one of "his" guys make good over a Bellicheck guy.
Just food for thought.

Just saying

copied this.....its pertinent....I have a feeling that Holmgren wants rebuilding this franchise to be HIS accomplishment he has a LARGE ego!

Flugel

@riffer-x said:
I don't like this, it reeks of another bad decision by Lerner, but that doesn't mean I don't like Holmgren either. If Mangie is fired, this team is going to suck bad next year folks, that is the bottom line.

I'm getting used to Lerner's rush to fire and hire.

I remembered saying I hoped we interviewed at least 1 more candidate than Holmgren; and I had my eyes set on Parcells. On all accounts, I read quite a few things about Parcells being interested in a position such as the one we are offering especially now that Miami ownership is adding J-Lo, Mark Antony, Gloria Estefan and others. The worry was he wouldn't be available to late January which doesn't mean he would be out of football and away from evaluating personnel.

I think Parcells was alot more compatible with what Mangini got off the ground. As I said, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Brent Jones, John Taylor and Tom Rathman aren't employed here. I think I see Joe Morris, Stephen Baker, Phil Mcconkey and Mark Ingram. We obviously lack the Mark Bavaro and Phil Simms; but they won a SB with Jeff Hostetler with the SYSTEM. Not only that, but Parcells began at 1-15 with media hating him every bit as much as the Plain Dealer hated Mangini. I guess a terrible owner COULD have let Parcells get fired, which might have made for a premature ending to BB's career. I SEE good coaches here folks.

But like Ballpeen reminds me, I haven't been employed by the NFL for 35 years. Not sure where that makes RANDY's decisions right or HOW it kept Holmgren from being asked to step down from his last front office position to coach. Before Homgren got into coaching he was a high scholl social studies teacher so I don't think hs lack of 35 years at the time crushed his ability to coach. In the end, I hope we didn't hire Holmgren just to realize he's more fit to coach again because we're chasing our tails if that becomes the end product.

This week is really important IMO. This can't be another hurryup and fire only to hire the next Coordinatorfrom a perfect environment. If that's what RANDY's decision to hire Holmgren leads to - we've thrown away all the good we started getting excited about in the 2nd half of 2009. Just being honest because I'm not sure I want to watch 1 more season of body by Randy (starting over and we'll just have to be patient crap). We've made the playoffs once since 1994 and today it's 2010. Think about it. There's been alot of knee-jerky and "achey breakey heart" going on since.

What our front office needs to do is GET the Head Coach talent that CAN win and I'm talkign about QBs better than 32-47% completion percentages on game day. If Mangini had a DECENT QB to work with, we're looking at more balance on offense instead of evberyone thinking the easiest of fixes is to fire another OC. Get a freakin QB in here because the ONLY times this franchise won was when we had starters named Sipe, Kosar and okay Vinny Testaverde (who played in this league until he was 43). When BB had Todd Philcox starting for us - HOW MANY here prematurely concluded he wasn't Head Coach material? He was even winless with Bledsoe the SAME eason Brady took his team to the big dance. QB is where I see Holmgren helping us - not ripping out the foundation of momentum. His words not mine, "egos need to be checked at the door."

- Tom F.

Flugel

@riffer-x said:
Holmgren seems like a sensible guy, I think he'll do the right thing but Mangie has to give in some.

I BLAME this on the knee jerk owner. Who hires a Head Coach practically the same day he's fired without having a GM/President in tact? NOW we hire the GM who might want to fire that Head Coach already? This is absurd.

NOW, we're hiring the WCO personality to clash with the Parcells/BB personality. I think where mangini is coming from is he was asked by our owner to bring in and coach up the right breed of player for the 3-4 we HAD to have. Now that we GOT that better than we've had it in the last 5 years - he's gonna defend PROGRESS over unknownage.

The problem here is what it has always been - Randy Lerner. He shoudl have made it clear to MIKE that he hired a Head Coach to improve the game day product on the field and since it IS happening - Mike can come into help IMPROVE it but keep the coach intact. THEN they'd work it out. If it's undoable chemistry - which guy was the cruddy hire? I realize I'm jumping the gun but reading posts about Marty's Morningsickness coming here because he can call plays from a booth on a team well coached by Andy Reid - doesn't mean he's got PEOPLE skills necessary for getting 47 active players in all phases of the game to buy into him. His LAST SF affiliation Supervising him up in Detroit drafted for that WCO - anyone remember Charles Rogers, Roy Williams and Mike Williams? I'm starting to think Wayne Fontes was a pretty good coach considerign what we've seen when that turned into "we gotta become WCO only." The people in Detroit miss that planning for the WCO about as much as their last case of food poisoning.

- Tom F.

kshutchins

@solon16 said:
copied this.....its pertinent....I have a feeling that Holmgren wants rebuilding this franchise to be HIS accomplishment he has a LARGE ego!

There's nothing wrong with having a strong ego. It only becomes a problem if one's ego gets in the way of good communication and if it interferes with one's ability to appreciate and work with others. When the ego is accompanied by a "my way or the highway" attitude, then it can be problematic. I don't really know Mangini or Holmgren well enough to judge their characters but they both strike me as men who are seeking to work in a collaborative way to create a Browns organization that will be strong for the long haul. Mangini seems to have started the ball rolling by getting the players turned in the direction of working as a "family" by helping each other. You don't really have to park your ego at the door to make this sort of thing work. You do have to keep that ego from becoming an obstacle to others' success.

I see Mangini and Holmgren as men who are seeking the same sort of team attitude in the building. I say this because Holmgren came right out an said it and because Mangini alluded to it in a number of ways. In particular, I think Mangini would welcome Holmgren's input on the QB question. He said so himself in the last presser I heard when he said he'd welcome input from someone who can come in with completely objective eyes. On a couple of occasions I've heard Mangini say something along the lines of "two heads (or three or four, etc) are better than one."

I think the big questions are 1) do Mangini and Holmgren each have visions of the team and organization that are close enough that they can find a common ground and a common direction 2) can they communicate well 3) are their personalities generally compatible enough so they can reach consensus or accept each others' decisions when needed.

If I were in Holmgren's position, I would want to know the thought processes that went into the QB situation, Kokinis' departure, his vision for the team, what Mangini sees as his greatest accomplishment, etc. I would be more interested in the ease of communication when discussing these things than I might even be with some of the answers. I've done enough hiring in my lifetime to know that most of the time you can just tell that a person will fit into your organization. Sometimes you can take a chance on someone and it pays off but this is not a situation in which Holmgren is going to want to take a chance if there's an obvious philosophical difference. I'm not referring to a WCO vs. any other O type of philosophy either. I referring to something more general that has to do with attitude, goals, approach, style and methodology.

Holmgren might discover right off the bat that he and Mangini won't be able to work together. It may be more of a "feeling out" process (hence, his statement that there might be several meetings). If they can find common ground and mutual respect, I think Mangini will stay. If not, I think it will be a professionally handled parting on both sides. I confess I'll be disappointed if Mangini leaves because I like a lot of what he's accomplished but I'm forced to trust Holmgren's judgement.

Thunderbird Cruiser

At this moment, Eric is begging his new boss for another chance. Outlook not good.

He hired his buddy to be GM and hired a clown to run his offense. His judgement is impaired and he needs to go on a diet.

The FIRING IS COMING!! JOY TO THE BROWNS!!!