Yuck to the TOP QB prospect!!!
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You know how Quinn doesn't always settle his feet properly and the ball floats? If he had exceptional mechanics all around, he wouldn't do that. Sanchez just makes stupid decisions.
But if I were watching for good mechanics what would I be watching for? What are "properly set" feet, etc? I don't want to be a QB coach, just a quick tutorial on proper mechanics would be helpful.
But if I were watching for good mechanics what would I be watching for? What are "properly set" feet, etc? I don't want to be a QB coach, just a quick tutorial on proper mechanics would be helpful.
Here's what I look for:
The short version: The QB's feet and arms should exhibit an "economy of motion" (i.e., the less wasted movement the better)
The detailed version:
The QB mechanics break down into two main areas:
1) Lower Body
2) Upper Body
I put them in that order because poor lower body mechanics leads to poor upper body mechanics.
1) Lower Body-- The QB accepts the snap and then has basically four movements immediately off of the snap. He has a 3, 5 and 7 step drop. He also has different mechanics to hand off. When he accepts the exchange from center he'll then drop step with his throwing foot (i.e., the same side foot that corresponds to his throwing arm. Right for righties, left for lefties). He then has to cross with the contralateral foot for step two. The next step is with the first foot and so on and so forth. The reason the drops are numbered as "odd steps" is that the same-side foot has to be the last one because they have to drive off of that foot to initiate the throw. For instance, a three step drop is quick and is a throw to short routes...so the rhythm is 1-2-3-throw. The crossing of the feet is key. Some guys are very smooth with this and others are uncoordinated and shuffle/stumble their way back. Other guys are frequently caught in between steps. At the appropriate depth of the drop, that last step has to plant firmly and the player's stance should be athletic with a good base for balance. They push off of the back foot and drive their weight forward with the the front foot rotating their hips (Tom Brady is particularly good at the drive and hip turn). NO THROWING OFF OF THE BACK FOOT!
On handoffs, it's a little different because whether it's a straight handoff or a stretch...the QB has to open their hips right off of the snap. On the stretch they have to have some mobility to get to the handoff point. There is some agility involved here.
2)Upper Body-- On pulling out from center the QB's head and eyes are ideally downfield. Some guys do keep their head centered so it's harder to see where they're looking (Brett Favre does this) but they should be going through their reads as they drop. The shoulders should be perpendicular with the line of scrimmage when possible and the ball should be held high (with two hands) near the upper shoulder/ear hole area. (see Peyton Manning). The positioning of the ball helps avoid fumbles from carelessness but more importantly it gets rid of a hitch because the ball is already in a good starting position for the throw (Steve Young). The throwing motion should be compact (NOT TIM TEBOW OR LEFTWICH). The arm angle is important in the sense that a QB makes himself shorter with a sidearm throw and for some guys that's an issue. The follow through should end up with their throwing hand almost in their opposite pants pocket (Tom Brady). The release point should ideally be in the middle of the throw and the wrist snap offers a tighter spiral (important for bad weather....good ones were Marino, Warren Moon and even Michael Vick has a great wrist release).
These are just physical mechanics. Obviously there's more to this than just the physical part of it. Some guys are able to overcome lapses in their mechanics and others cannot. Some guys trust their arm too much. If you look at the 22 Ints that Brett Favre threw last year with the Jets, at least 19 or 20 were mechanics breakdowns and most, if not all, were thrown off of his back foot. His mechanics looked like he simply didn't care but I risk reading too much into that. Brady Quinn is NOT a guy who can overcome bad mechanics. He needs his mechanics to be reproducible and spot on to be effective. Jay Cutler, on the other hand, can occasionally overcome bad mechanics and throw on the run.
Just my version of QB mechanics. Hope that's helpful.
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I think there are a lot of reason why Smith was drafted in the 5th round, but Quinn went in the first. Smith played on a very good team with a dominant defense. Quinn was the best player on his team. I think too many guys look at someone who can throw far and fall in love with that (I'm not saying it's something that's unimportant; I'm saying it's overemphasized). Look at JaMarcus Russell. No one talked about him until the Bowl Game vs. ND. Suddenly, he was a great prospect? No, I always thought of him as a huge arm and nothing else. That's what he seems to be. Troy Smith? Great athlete. Not a QB. Brady Quinn always looked like a really tough competitor, a solid athlete, and a good QB. And that's what everyone said about him until the LSU game. If you watched it, you saw a team vastly outclassed. LSU was simply better across the board. The Irish looked horrible. You can pin it on Quinn, I suppose. He was the best player on the team, but he didn't win it for them. I simply felt terrible for him because almost no one showed up (certainly not his line).
I'm still a bit surprised that people say things like, "I haven't seen Quinn do a thing at the NFL level." I know his numbers overall are unimpressive, but so are a lot of guys who haven't had the key handed over to them for a full season. And plenty of young QBs who start off with unimpressive numbers grow into very good NFL QBs. I don't even think it's a question that Quinn outperformed Anderson this year. Maybe that's not much in the book of some. Still, Quinn has looked good numerous times running the 2-minute drill (for instance, against San Diego this season). He's tough, runs the offense well, can do something with his feet, and I thought was one of the big reasons the team started to gel toward the end of the season. If you haven't seen Quinn do anything, why is Troy Smith even in the conversation?
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For me, I think that rounds 1-3 go:
Haden, CB, Florida
Adam Ulatoski, OL, Texas (only if you plan to play him at RT)
Dan LeFevour, QB, C Michigan
I think the 2nd Round is a little too high for Ulatowski.
Suh's dominance over the Longhorns' interior OL was the main event of the Big 12 Championship Game, but Barry Turner also embarrassed Ulatowski, notching 2.5 sacks. Turner probably isn't good enough to start at the next level, so it doesn't bode well for Ulatowski's future, even if he's going to move to right tackle.
Ulatowski also was bad in the Texas Tech loss last year, routinely getting destroyed by McKinner Dixon. He could get a look in the mid-rounds, but I don't think he'll start right away: he needs time to develop.
I think the 2nd Round is a little too high for Ulatowski.
Suh's dominance over the Longhorns' interior OL was the main event of the Big 12 Championship Game, but Barry Turner also embarrassed Ulatowski, notching 2.5 sacks. Turner probably isn't good enough to start at the next level, so it doesn't bode well for Ulatowski's future, even if he's going to move to right tackle.
Ulatowski also was bad in the Texas Tech loss last year, routinely getting destroyed by McKinner Dixon. He could get a look in the mid-rounds, but I don't think he'll start right away: he needs time to develop.
Alo, I won't disagree. I think this line is one of the weakest in the last ten years. That said, most people I've talked to or read seem to agree that his future in the NFL is at RT or even OG. He's massive but is limited in his athleticism. This doesn't strike me as a good interior offensive line/RT class but I could be wrong.
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I think there are a lot of reason why Smith was drafted in the 5th round, but Quinn went in the first. Smith played on a very good team with a dominant defense. Quinn was the best player on his team. I think too many guys look at someone who can throw far and fall in love with that (I'm not saying it's something that's unimportant; I'm saying it's overemphasized). Look at JaMarcus Russell. No one talked about him until the Bowl Game vs. ND. Suddenly, he was a great prospect? No, I always thought of him as a huge arm and nothing else. That's what he seems to be. Troy Smith? Great athlete. Not a QB. Brady Quinn always looked like a really tough competitor, a solid athlete, and a good QB. And that's what everyone said about him until the LSU game. If you watched it, you saw a team vastly outclassed. LSU was simply better across the board. The Irish looked horrible. You can pin it on Quinn, I suppose. He was the best player on the team, but he didn't win it for them. I simply felt terrible for him because almost no one showed up (certainly not his line).
I'm still a bit surprised that people say things like, "I haven't seen Quinn do a thing at the NFL level." I know his numbers overall are unimpressive, but so are a lot of guys who haven't had the key handed over to them for a full season. And plenty of young QBs who start off with unimpressive numbers grow into very good NFL QBs. I don't even think it's a question that Quinn outperformed Anderson this year. Maybe that's not much in the book of some. Still, Quinn has looked good numerous times running the 2-minute drill (for instance, against San Diego this season). He's tough, runs the offense well, can do something with his feet, and I thought was one of the big reasons the team started to gel toward the end of the season. If you haven't seen Quinn do anything, why is Troy Smith even in the conversation?
I think there are a lot of reason why Smith was drafted in the 5th round, but Quinn went in the first. Smith played on a very good team with a dominant defense.
Ohio State REPLACED 9 defensive starters heading into his senior year while losing 5 juniors to the NFL draft T. I think you need to research this better. That was a big reason why Jim Rome was cautioning Buckeye fans that AJ Hawk wouldn't bet Packer teammate Charles Woodson. BOTH years, Troy had to overcome Michigan leads which doesn't really convey Troy's defense was bailing him out.
Troy Smith enters this conversation because he wants to come and get an opportunity with a franchise in a position like our's. Cleveland just so happens to be his home town and it was the team he grew up rooting for.
Again, I was one of the ones that WANTED Quinn to succeed (because of our commitment to him); but I have to be honest about what I've seen from him T. The Detroit Game where he finally connected on deep passes weren't progressive reads as much as they were 5-7 step drops (plant and throw) to an area against one of the worst coverage teams in the NFL. These are timing patterns not reading a progression and throwing with precision. He's way too slow in his reads and players jump his routes too easily. KC was givign huge cushions and he overthrew a wideopen receiver into the chest of the DB 10-15 deeper than this receiver. It was a brutal INT and of course Daboll got blamed for it more than Quinn by some.
- Tom F.
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Troy Smith would be a nice option. He was and is a better qb than Brady Quinn. If Troy Smith does not get traded here hopefully our new gm from Philly brings Michael Vick with him.
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Please no Mike Vick.
Dawg pound and Mike Vick just don't go together
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Damn it we need the Fevour, The Dan Lefevour.
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Damn it we need the Fevour, The Dan Lefevour.
Damn it we need the Fevour, The Dan Lefevour.
...and the only cure is more cowbell?
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I think there are a lot of reason why Smith was drafted in the 5th round, but Quinn went in the first. Smith played on a very good team with a dominant defense.
Ohio State REPLACED 9 defensive starters heading into his senior year while losing 5 juniors to the NFL draft T. I think you need to research this better. That was a big reason why Jim Rome was cautioning Buckeye fans that AJ Hawk wouldn't bet Packer teammate Charles Woodson. BOTH years, Troy had to overcome Michigan leads which doesn't really convey Troy's defense was bailing him out.
Troy Smith enters this conversation because he wants to come and get an opportunity with a franchise in a position like our's. Cleveland just so happens to be his home town and it was the team he grew up rooting for.
Again, I was one of the ones that WANTED Quinn to succeed (because of our commitment to him); but I have to be honest about what I've seen from him T. The Detroit Game where he finally connected on deep passes weren't progressive reads as much as they were 5-7 step drops (plant and throw) to an area against one of the worst coverage teams in the NFL. These are timing patterns not reading a progression and throwing with precision. He's way too slow in his reads and players jump his routes too easily. KC was givign huge cushions and he overthrew a wideopen receiver into the chest of the DB 10-15 deeper than this receiver. It was a brutal INT and of course Daboll got blamed for it more than Quinn by some.
- Tom F.
Ohio State REPLACED 9 defensive starters heading into his senior year while losing 5 juniors to the NFL draft T. I think you need to research this better. That was a big reason why Jim Rome was cautioning Buckeye fans that AJ Hawk wouldn't bet Packer teammate Charles Woodson. BOTH years, Troy had to overcome Michigan leads which doesn't really convey Troy's defense was bailing him out.
What would I research? Ohio State yielded just over 10 PPG that season, 2nd best in 1A. They were basically top 10 in every defensive category. They had an utterly dominant defense. Everyone following football that year knew it.
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Please no Mike Vick.
Dawg pound and Mike Vick just don't go together
Please no Mike Vick.
Dawg pound and Mike Vick just don't go together
LOL!
OR, we could inquire about bringing in Kevin Kolb from Philly to compete with whatever QB we keep. I really think we can get a FA QB that brings some degree of game experience and promise in lieu of drafting any of the first round prospects with lingering injury-concerns. Speaking of which, Quinn was injured again as the season closed.
Does Canada have any more Warren Moons, Joe Theismanns, or Jeff Garcias ready to lead an NFL team into the playoffs? Anyone impressive in that Grey Cup Game? And which NFL team today might be like that Green Bay team that once had Mark Brunell, Matt Hasselbeck, and Kurt Warner being tutored for bright futures elsewhere?
It's looking like we have alot of people that don't want to draft a QB while at the same time we're not really comfortable with Quinn or DA anymore. Those that want a 1st round QB seem to favor LeFevour. I already jinxed Keenum - he threw 6 INTs in his Bowl Game shortly after I called him Flugel's 2nd round sleeper. He's a sleeper alright.
- Tom F.
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Ohio State REPLACED 9 defensive starters heading into his senior year while losing 5 juniors to the NFL draft T. I think you need to research this better. That was a big reason why Jim Rome was cautioning Buckeye fans that AJ Hawk wouldn't bet Packer teammate Charles Woodson. BOTH years, Troy had to overcome Michigan leads which doesn't really convey Troy's defense was bailing him out.
What would I research? Ohio State yielded just over 10 PPG that season, 2nd best in 1A. They were basically top 10 in every defensive category. They had an utterly dominant defense. Everyone following football that year knew it.
What would I research? Ohio State yielded just over 10 PPG that season, 2nd best in 1A. They were basically top 10 in every defensive category. They had an utterly dominant defense. Everyone following football that year knew it.
We could start by differentiating between Troy Smith's junior year and his senior year. Once you get that straight - I think you'll find Ohio State replaced 9 starters on defense when Troy was a senior. I also think you'll be unpleasantly surprised to see that 5 juniors went in the first 3 rounds of the NFL draft heading into Troy's senior year. We can pretend that made life easy as hell if you need us to; but I think Troy would have had ALOT more help if Santonio Holmes was available for the Florida matchup instead of being a 1st round draft pick STARTING for the Pittsburgh Steelers. Donte Whitner was also a 1st round draft pick for Buffalo, AJ Hawk was a first round draft pick for Green Bay. Youboty was a 3rd round pick for Buffalo and they had an olineman (Rob Murphy?) go to the NFL as a junior too. You blend that reality with losing 9 defensive starters and it's a pretty nice story that Troy Smith led them to a National Championship Game inspite of all the roster turnover.
Getting back to WHY I've brought up Troy Smith - I thought you didn't WANT to draft a QB in 2010 right?
So what's your enourmous worry about bringing in a free agent we don't have to overpay to compete with Quinn or DA for the starting job?
I gotta believe there's more than just Troy Smith as an idea. He's just the ONLY guy I see hinting around that he wants our situation as his ideal opportunity in his home town so he jumps to the top of my list of bargain shopping. Kevin Kolb is another idea I have but I think you'll find a bigger price tag attched to that one so we get back to worrying about what we lose if the dice comes up on the wrong number.
I think the fact that you present yourself as an enormous Notre Dame fan while I'm an Ohio State fan is gonna keep us from finding some common ground in this debate.
- Tom F.
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Tom, maybe I'm missing something, but for the life of me, I don't see it. I don't care if Ohio State somehow replaced 12 starters on
the defense was amazing. It may have been better than Smith's Junior season. I don't care if Notre Dame had 500 men on the field on defense, all Pro-Bowlers returned from the NFL: they were not amazing. If you think that having a good defense cannot do great things for a QB's growth in very short order, see guys like Rothlisberger, Rivers, and Flacco (and if you extend it to college, the list swells to become ridiculous).Was Smith a "nice story"? I suppose so. I don't see that it makes Smith a better quarterback than Brady Quinn.
I don't want Cleveland to draft a QB with an early pick. I don't mind if they pick up someone later in the draft or even if they try to go out and get a vet to take Quinn under his wing (Anderson will be gone). I don't see what bringing in Troy Smith would do though, even if he is cheap. I don't see him winning the starting job and I don't see him helping our other QB(s) in any way.
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Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
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Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
Hey, did you just add that line about my being an ND fan? I didn't see it before. I don't see a reason why what college team we like should have any impact on this debate. One guy had an incredible season despite the players around him. One guy had an incredible season because of the players around him. That's how I see it. That's how scouts saw it. That's how teams drafted.
At the risk of interjecting another dog into this fight, I'd offer to you that being a fan of ND or Ohio State is entirely relevant in the discussion. I personally don't trust myself to give an opinion about Texas players because I worry that I don't see them objectively. I try to stay out of discussions regarding the pro prospects of the Horns as I tend to be more critical of them than others might be. The reaction to positive or negative criticism of a favorite college team (especially if you're an alum) is a very visceral one and I can't expect the fact to be irrelevant.
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I don't see any way we get Kolb from Philly...He's their next starter. I think they would give up McNabb before they give up Kolb at this point.
I don't see any way we get Kolb from Philly...He's their next starter. I think they would give up McNabb before they give up Kolb at this point.
Mark,
I was thinking the same way until yesterday. Kolb's prolly seriously wondering why they asked Michael Vick to come in during the 1st quarter yesterday to throw a rope for a 67 yard TD pass instead of asking him to do that. I don't think they're investing this time in Michael Vick just to trade him based on McNabb's age and wear and tear coupled with his recent playoff disappointments. If Kolb senses they are grooming Vick to replace McNabb, guess who wants out? They can tell Kolb he's their guy of the future all they want but their actions are really showing Vick is this person.
- Tom F.
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I think that play really only worked because they were afraid of Vick running the ball. It was a pass out of a WildDawg...something we should do more of with Cribbs because it would make the running game with him even more effective.
I still think Philly looks at Kolb as the future starter and Vick as nothing more than Pat White in Miami or that dude from the Jets last night.
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Vick is the future of the St. Louis Rams.
It's going to happen.
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I watched Brees in college, primarily when he played against OSU. He was insanely accurate and made me wonder why nobody thought he could play in the pros. He is probably a couple of inches taller than troy
Troy was a great athlete that became a good QB as time went on. He made some incredible plays but didn't impress me as insanely accurate like brees. I don't think troy did really well in his workouts before the draft which hurt him. But I do think troy can play in the nfl, he is still here
I don't think it was a looks or skin issue but just imho
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