Holmgren; West Coast Offense = ? at QB
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Zombo said:
Mangini and Dabol don't run a West Coast offense. Holmgren is the president, not the coach. I imagine Dabol will get another year to develop his offense, but with another QB. McNab is a good guess. I don't see Hasslebeck as a fit here.Zombo
While Holmgren is not the coach, he basically stated that Mangini would have to be on board with his style of football if he was going to stick around. So I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some west coast style offense. As for the draft, coach, president and GM are all going to be part of decisions who get drafted.
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Mike stated that he would be hands off from the coaches perspective, but left his door open to the Mangini for advise. The media is running around with this WCO myth still. I don't get it.
because the belief is that holmgren will bring in players that fit the mold of the wco. if he does that, then he will be enforcing the wco on the coaches.
because the belief is that holmgren will bring in players that fit the mold of the wco. if he does that, then he will be enforcing the wco on the coaches.
Who's belief? Holmgren stated in his initial press conference that Wolf (his GM in Green Bay) told him that he'd never give him a player he didn't want or couldn't use. I took that to mean that Holmgren would do the same.
That being said, giving them WCO players that don't fit the system Daboll/Mangini is running would be going against that.
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Um, actually, I think he stated the exact opposite.
I may have read between the lines on these quotes, but I don't think this is stating the exact opposite:
"I asked him to think about a few things this evening," said Holmgren, an NFL coach for 17 seasons with Green Bay and Seattle. "I did give him a list of things to think about for our meeting. In fairness to Eric, I was a coach for a long time, it's important he understands where I'm coming from and I understand where he's coming from. The only way you win in this league is when the coach and general manager are on the same wavelength. That's the only chance.
"When egos get in the way, it destroys the team. My goal is to have everyone thinking in a like manner, going in the same direction. Let's put the egos aside."
And this too:
(On if he will come in thinking he wants a West Coast Offense team)- "I think that's a decision I make after I talk to the head coach. If he doesn't like what I like then he has to convince me that what he's doing is better than what I would like to see. That's the type of discussion that we have. Then after that, like I said, you come to a consensus, you come to an agreement. We both want the same thing for the Cleveland Browns and then once we decide on that, now you try and get the right personnel to fit the system. That's the way I've always done it and I anticipate that's the way we'll do it again."
These don't sound like "hands off approach" quotes to me. Also, bringing in Heckert, who is schooled in Holmgren's style of offense, suggests they want to acquire players who will fit Holmgren's scheme. As Holmgren said "you try and get the right personnel to fit the system", and he brought in Heckert who fits Holmgren's philosophy. It might be a stretch to say the Browns are going to adopt a "west coast offense" but I think you will definitely see more of an emphasis on passing, even if the Browns won their final games on the run.
"I said, 'I need someone who's going to want to get on the roller coaster with me knowing that it's not always going to be fun,'" -Paul DePodesta -
Zombo said:
Mopaji and Halfsane get it."West Coast" is just a term for people to grab onto. All offenses are hybrids and Eric Mangini is the head football coach, and as so, he is in charge of who the offensive coordinator is, what type of offense he runs and who starts at QB. Now he has a pro like Heckert to find the players and a legend like Holmgren to direct the overall franchise and offer football knowledge and advice.
It's a pretty good set-up.
Here's a dumbed-down sample: Holmgren says "we have to completely revamp the passing system cause it sucked last year". Heckart says "here's a guy we can get that I really like". Dabol says "I can design an effective system around that guy" and Mangini says "let's do it."
It doesn't mean we run out and get Matt Hasslebeck because we are suddenly a "WCO team"
Zombo
you forgot that Daboll sucks, for the most part.
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It will be mangini/dabolls job to keep or lose holmgren isnt looking to run the show from upstairs ,he will be there for advise and may offer some of his offensive expertise to mangini/daboll which they would be wise to build off of it because their current schemes are totally uncreative and abysmal and the offense actually has the appearance of being ran by defensive minded thugs as opposed to clever creative guys, they seem to want to build players around their system instead of a system based off of players.they have to trust the qb they go with in order to build trust and or find out for real if that guy can cut it...not letting a qb cut loose just isnt the way to go ,for better or worse a coach needs to let a guy adjust to his system rather its DA ,BQ ,kolb or McNapp...
I dont think most fans mind losing if you are seeing young guys progress and a complete balanced system coming together but another year like the first half of last year and its bye bye mangenius with a deep boot imprint left on his rear...
Mopaji and Halfsane get it.
"West Coast" is just a term for people to grab onto. All offenses are hybrids and Eric Mangini is the head football coach, and as so, he is in charge of who the offensive coordinator is, what type of offense he runs and who starts at QB. Now he has a pro like Heckert to find the players and a legend like Holmgren to direct the overall franchise and offer football knowledge and advice.
It's a pretty good set-up.
Here's a dumbed-down sample: Holmgren says "we have to completely revamp the passing system cause it sucked last year". Heckart says "here's a guy we can get that I really like". Dabol says "I can design an effective system around that guy" and Mangini says "let's do it."
It doesn't mean we run out and get Matt Hasslebeck because we are suddenly a "WCO team"
Zombo
This is certainly what most of us are thinking and hoping ,i believe we will see a balanced attack next year that just keeps opening the run/passing options up at will...daboll is the weak link in all this ,if he can actually trust passing the ball some we will develop if not daboll is gone at the bye week...
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Um, actually, I think he stated the exact opposite.
I may have read between the lines on these quotes, but I don't think this is stating the exact opposite:
"I asked him to think about a few things this evening," said Holmgren, an NFL coach for 17 seasons with Green Bay and Seattle. "I did give him a list of things to think about for our meeting. In fairness to Eric, I was a coach for a long time, it's important he understands where I'm coming from and I understand where he's coming from. The only way you win in this league is when the coach and general manager are on the same wavelength. That's the only chance.
"When egos get in the way, it destroys the team. My goal is to have everyone thinking in a like manner, going in the same direction. Let's put the egos aside."
And this too:
(On if he will come in thinking he wants a West Coast Offense team)- "I think that's a decision I make after I talk to the head coach. If he doesn't like what I like then he has to convince me that what he's doing is better than what I would like to see. That's the type of discussion that we have. Then after that, like I said, you come to a consensus, you come to an agreement. We both want the same thing for the Cleveland Browns and then once we decide on that, now you try and get the right personnel to fit the system. That's the way I've always done it and I anticipate that's the way we'll do it again."
These don't sound like "hands off approach" quotes to me. Also, bringing in Heckert, who is schooled in Holmgren's style of offense, suggests they want to acquire players who will fit Holmgren's scheme. As Holmgren said "you try and get the right personnel to fit the system", and he brought in Heckert who fits Holmgren's philosophy. It might be a stretch to say the Browns are going to adopt a "west coast offense" but I think you will definitely see more of an emphasis on passing, even if the Browns won their final games on the run.
I may have read between the lines on these quotes, but I don't think this is stating the exact opposite:
"I asked him to think about a few things this evening," said Holmgren, an NFL coach for 17 seasons with Green Bay and Seattle. "I did give him a list of things to think about for our meeting. In fairness to Eric, I was a coach for a long time, it's important he understands where I'm coming from and I understand where he's coming from. The only way you win in this league is when the coach and general manager are on the same wavelength. That's the only chance.
"When egos get in the way, it destroys the team. My goal is to have everyone thinking in a like manner, going in the same direction. Let's put the egos aside."
And this too:
(On if he will come in thinking he wants a West Coast Offense team)- "I think that's a decision I make after I talk to the head coach. If he doesn't like what I like then he has to convince me that what he's doing is better than what I would like to see. That's the type of discussion that we have. Then after that, like I said, you come to a consensus, you come to an agreement. We both want the same thing for the Cleveland Browns and then once we decide on that, now you try and get the right personnel to fit the system. That's the way I've always done it and I anticipate that's the way we'll do it again."
These don't sound like "hands off approach" quotes to me. Also, bringing in Heckert, who is schooled in Holmgren's style of offense, suggests they want to acquire players who will fit Holmgren's scheme. As Holmgren said "you try and get the right personnel to fit the system", and he brought in Heckert who fits Holmgren's philosophy. It might be a stretch to say the Browns are going to adopt a "west coast offense" but I think you will definitely see more of an emphasis on passing, even if the Browns won their final games on the run.
But you are also totally ignoring his statement that “west coast offense doesn’t really exist anymore” and that Wolf said he wouldn’t give him any players he didn’t want.
You can try to read between the lines all you want, but I actually read something different in those quotes than you did.
He’s also stated that all 3 guys (President, GM, and Coach) need to be on the same page to win. The fact he’s keeping Mangini says to me, that he will work to give Mangini players that fit Mangini’s system and scheme.
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i kinda read it that way too.
i don't see Homlgren being a dictator at the expense of sucess.
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Osiris,
You are referencing some old quotes before Holmgren actually talked football with Mangini. I believe the press conference where both of them (and Heckert) spoke clarified the actual plans.
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I think the game plan for this season was designed around the fact that the Browns had QBs and WRs of questionable ability. If the QB talent improves and we acquire WRs with good hands, that could change.
I confess I still like when the running game prompts the opposition to moan, "We knew what they were going to do and we still couldn't stop it." I wouldn't complain at all if we heard that every week.
Woof Woof, Kathy http://cognitivemanifesto.com/ http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?contentID=49&officeID=9 Bendix ESP -
Um, actually, I think he stated the exact opposite.
I may have read between the lines on these quotes, but I don't think this is stating the exact opposite:
"I asked him to think about a few things this evening," said Holmgren, an NFL coach for 17 seasons with Green Bay and Seattle. "I did give him a list of things to think about for our meeting. In fairness to Eric, I was a coach for a long time, it's important he understands where I'm coming from and I understand where he's coming from. The only way you win in this league is when the coach and general manager are on the same wavelength. That's the only chance.
"When egos get in the way, it destroys the team. My goal is to have everyone thinking in a like manner, going in the same direction. Let's put the egos aside."
And this too:
(On if he will come in thinking he wants a West Coast Offense team)- "I think that's a decision I make after I talk to the head coach. If he doesn't like what I like then he has to convince me that what he's doing is better than what I would like to see. That's the type of discussion that we have. Then after that, like I said, you come to a consensus, you come to an agreement. We both want the same thing for the Cleveland Browns and then once we decide on that, now you try and get the right personnel to fit the system. That's the way I've always done it and I anticipate that's the way we'll do it again."
These don't sound like "hands off approach" quotes to me. Also, bringing in Heckert, who is schooled in Holmgren's style of offense, suggests they want to acquire players who will fit Holmgren's scheme. As Holmgren said "you try and get the right personnel to fit the system", and he brought in Heckert who fits Holmgren's philosophy. It might be a stretch to say the Browns are going to adopt a "west coast offense" but I think you will definitely see more of an emphasis on passing, even if the Browns won their final games on the run.
I may have read between the lines on these quotes, but I don't think this is stating the exact opposite:
"I asked him to think about a few things this evening," said Holmgren, an NFL coach for 17 seasons with Green Bay and Seattle. "I did give him a list of things to think about for our meeting. In fairness to Eric, I was a coach for a long time, it's important he understands where I'm coming from and I understand where he's coming from. The only way you win in this league is when the coach and general manager are on the same wavelength. That's the only chance.
"When egos get in the way, it destroys the team. My goal is to have everyone thinking in a like manner, going in the same direction. Let's put the egos aside."
And this too:
(On if he will come in thinking he wants a West Coast Offense team)- "I think that's a decision I make after I talk to the head coach. If he doesn't like what I like then he has to convince me that what he's doing is better than what I would like to see. That's the type of discussion that we have. Then after that, like I said, you come to a consensus, you come to an agreement. We both want the same thing for the Cleveland Browns and then once we decide on that, now you try and get the right personnel to fit the system. That's the way I've always done it and I anticipate that's the way we'll do it again."
These don't sound like "hands off approach" quotes to me. Also, bringing in Heckert, who is schooled in Holmgren's style of offense, suggests they want to acquire players who will fit Holmgren's scheme. As Holmgren said "you try and get the right personnel to fit the system", and he brought in Heckert who fits Holmgren's philosophy. It might be a stretch to say the Browns are going to adopt a "west coast offense" but I think you will definitely see more of an emphasis on passing, even if the Browns won their final games on the run.
those quotes out of context will often lead to different interpretations of the same thing.
that's why i forget the middle man and just listen to the press conferences myself or read the transcripts thereof.
why settle for the media cherrypicking when you can just listen to everything they have to write from yourself, context intact? i think this attributes to more deviation in opinion than actual differing in opinion.
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kinda off-topic, but wasn't it actually Bernie Kosar who originally coined the term "West Coast offense" in the first place, referencing the Super Chargers of the 80's? specifically the "Coryell version" of Paul Brown's offensive passing concept/scheme that was implemented in San Diego (west coast)?
boy, what a journey! now present day it has completely taken on a life of it's own!
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kinda off-topic, but wasn't it actually Bernie Kosar who originally coined the term "West Coast offense" in the first place, referencing the Super Chargers of the 80's? specifically the "Coryell version" of Paul Brown's offensive passing concept/scheme that was implemented in San Diego (west coast)?
boy, what a journey! now present day it has completely taken on a life of it's own!
kinda off-topic, but wasn't it actually Bernie Kosar who originally coined the term "West Coast offense" in the first place, referencing the Super Chargers of the 80's? specifically the "Coryell version" of Paul Brown's offensive passing concept/scheme that was implemented in San Diego (west coast)?
boy, what a journey! now present day it has completely taken on a life of it's own!
That's exactly right. The term "West Coast Offense" is a misnomer. Bernie Kosar mistakenly referenced the Air Coryell system as the West Coast, and it's pretty much been around ever since.
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yes! i just looked it up. Bernie Kosar brought the term "West Coast Offense" to popularity, referencing the Chargers and Raiders of the 60's.
Coryell and Gillman coined the term at least as far back as the sixties, but it had been interpreted incorrectly by many fans to mean Bill Walsh's dominant 49'ers of the 80's and has stuck.
so while Kosar is credited (and credits himself) with using the term, apparently he did a bad job of explaining it and it has subsequently been handed on to the point now where it has taken on this life of it's own.
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This article kind of backs up what I was saying in this thread:
Also factoring into the QB decision is Holmgren's intention to transition the Browns' offense into something more compatible with his beliefs in the West Coast hybrid he ran in Green Bay and Seattle.
Haskell has been working closely with offensive coordinator Brian Daboll on that, he confirmed.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...dent_mik_2.html
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