Day of Prayer Ritual Deemed Unconstitutional
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Um, because there are important Constitutional issues at stake?
Um, because there are important Constitutional issues at stake?
Um, no.
How about someone decided that MLK day was racist and petitioned the SC to have it abolished on constitutional grounds.
Would you think that was merely an attempt to follow that presumed constitutional directive concerning fairness, or just someone being a prick?
WSS
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Can either Heck or Steve please tell me how this breaks down into a Separation of Church and State. Prayer doesn't signify any religion, so how is it a matter of church v state. I haven't gone to church (read an organized religious event) in years, but it hasn't been more than 2 months since I prayed. And has far as the difference between meditation (to include the Eastern religions) and prayer are merely semantic. They are two sides of the same coin. Being that there was no mandate...nor government altered activities (ie Congress not in session) I just don't see how it applies.
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Can either Heck or Steve please tell me how this breaks down into a Separation of Church and State. Prayer doesn't signify any religion, so how is it a matter of church v state. I haven't gone to church (read an organized religious event) in years, but it hasn't been more than 2 months since I prayed. And has far as the difference between meditation (to include the Eastern religions) and prayer are merely semantic. They are two sides of the same coin. Being that there was no mandate...nor government altered activities (ie Congress not in session) I just don't see how it applies.
I would agree with the ruling. I think prayer is an inherently religious function, it has no place in my life as an atheist, why should the government be urging me to do something that is religious. I would, however, say that prayer is a very specific form of meditation. Meditation is not inherently religious, if it were the national day of meditation, where the government urged me to sit back, relax, and meditate, then that would not signify religion and I don't think that atheists would take issue with it.
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Never been in a "foxhole" have you, Vape?
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Can either Heck or Steve please tell me how this breaks down into a Separation of Church and State. Prayer doesn't signify any religion, so how is it a matter of church v state. I haven't gone to church (read an organized religious event) in years, but it hasn't been more than 2 months since I prayed. And has far as the difference between meditation (to include the Eastern religions) and prayer are merely semantic. They are two sides of the same coin. Being that there was no mandate...nor government altered activities (ie Congress not in session) I just don't see how it applies.
Can either Heck or Steve please tell me how this breaks down into a Separation of Church and State. Prayer doesn't signify any religion, so how is it a matter of church v state. I haven't gone to church (read an organized religious event) in years, but it hasn't been more than 2 months since I prayed. And has far as the difference between meditation (to include the Eastern religions) and prayer are merely semantic. They are two sides of the same coin. Being that there was no mandate...nor government altered activities (ie Congress not in session) I just don't see how it applies.
It's basically what Vapor is saying.
The argument goes that the government has no place suggesting that the nation should pray, which is an inherently religious exercise, or when, or whether to pray or not. And that in doing so, the government is saying that it favors people who pray over those that don't, and that the government must steer clear of promoting or sanctioning any religious exercise.
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/edit @John
Yes, because everyone who's ever been in a battle believed that there was a divine power looking over them. My never having been in a foxhole is completely irrelevant. My grandfather was a marine, but he's an atheist, my dad was in the Army, and he's a theist. Being shot at has no bearing on your belief in a higher power. You may wish one is there, and you may wish that someone's watching over you, but that doesn't equate to belief, what you hold to be true.
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first of all those "principles" are not inherently"christian" considering that religion is a little of 2k years old...... those principles are in many religions and its well documented in legal treaties and by quite a few of the founding fathers we were not formed to be a christian nation..... get over it. Sev boo-hooing
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you WERE whining.
those "principles" are existent in other religions? go read Joseph Campbell's "Hero of a Thousand Faces"
and grow up on your retorts. The commonality of how man views the universe in man's own understanding
is -universal-, Sev - it has it's common aspects from the very beginning of the existence of humans on this planet.
We have no national religion, thank goodness, but some of the Founders were Christians, some not...
but those Principles are still in place.
The fact that some of those principles also appear elsewhere has nothing to do with anything, unless you think
the Founding Fathers were Buddist, Muslim and other, more obsure and ancient religions.
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Of course the president should make judgments based on personal morality when it's something his pals agree with.
WSS
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This isn't a judgment about personal morality. If you want to pray, go ahead and do it, don't feel guilty about it, you don't have to. The government just doesn't have any place encouraging people to take part in religious activities.
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So, by ALLOWING someone to do something, you are encouraging it.
so, you discourage it, so as not to ENcourage it?
College kids warp my mind.
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This isn't a judgment about personal morality. If you want to pray, go ahead and do it, don't feel guilty about it, you don't have to. The government just doesn't have any place encouraging people to take part in religious activities.
This isn't a judgment about personal morality. If you want to pray, go ahead and do it, don't feel guilty about it, you don't have to. The government just doesn't have any place encouraging people to take part in religious activities.
Just to enforce moral behavior ?
WSS
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Moral behavior? Good one.
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Yes, if a government approves of a National Day and celebrates it, it's sanctioning that activity. It's approving of it. That's why we have a National Day of Prayer, and not a National Day of Animal Sacrifice.
The question then becomes whether you've crossed the line between sanctioning/recognizing it and promoting it over other beliefs - in this case, those of non-believers, or those who don't pray. The Constitution doesn't allow the government to have a preference.
It's also a question of whether the government should have any role in promoting this at all, as it's clearly a religious exercise. The government is only supposed to perform secular functions.
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A national day of prayer isn't a function.
It's a recognition of the right.
Now you will say that "A Nation under God" is a bad thing, too, right?
Since when is forcing our gov. to be agnostic, a freedom of religion/separation of church and state?
You'd be forcing the gov to take a negative stand toward those who founded this country,
and those who believe in the value of prayer.
You'd have to get rid of Easter... Christmas...Thanksgiving (some of those darn pioneers prayed ya know),
and you'll want to get rid of Labor day, because Mary was in labor with Jesus,...
and Memorial Day, because all those folks who pray for those who have been lost...
And Washington and Lincoln's birthdays because they prayed.
Martin Luther King day, or the gov is condoning/honoring a Rev who prayed.
All things must be fought against and argued forever about when you're a leftist.
What a sad way to exist.
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A national day of prayer isn't a function. It's a recognition of the right.
It's not only a recognition, it's an endorsement.
Now you will say that "A Nation under God" is a bad thing, too, right?
Yes. I don't believe in the Christian god. Why should we have to recite something that has only religious meaning if we don't mean it? Under god was only thrown in during McCarthyism because it helped to polarize the enemy even more.
How is this worse than what we're doing today?
Since when is forcing our gov. to be agnostic, a freedom of religion/separation of church and state?
Um, isn't that the definition of separation of church and state? Their principles, in theory, shouldn't overlap.
You'd be forcing the gov to take a negative stand toward those who founded this country,
You bring this up often, and it really isn't a valid point.
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison
" The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin
"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State - James Madison
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" - James Madison
Need I go on?
You'd have to get rid of Easter... Christmas...Thanksgiving (some of those darn pioneers prayed ya know),
I mean, I wouldn't mind seeing the government shift national holidays to only those that pay respect to American legends, but I really doubt that will ever happen.
and you'll want to get rid of Labor day, because Mary was in labor with Jesus,...
Now you're just being silly.
and Memorial Day, because all those folks who pray for those who have been lost...
lol, yes, because if anyone prays for me, then that means all my atheism counts for nothing. I mean, did you really just go there?
And Washington and Lincoln's birthdays because they prayed.
I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country.
-- George Washington
My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.
-- Abraham Lincoln
Martin Luther King day, or the gov is condoning/honoring a Rev who prayed.
All things must be fought against and argued forever about when you're a leftist. What a sad way to exist.
If that's how you think we feel, you are simply deluded. We're not here to discount people because they pray, that has nothing to do with this.
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Funny that you refuse to capitalize God, but forgot to bestow your little snark to Christianity.
WSS
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I didn't use a capital g for god because I was grouping him with all the other gods that ever "existed." If I refer to the Christian god by name, I'll use Yahweh or YHWH
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I didn't use a capital g for god because I was grouping him with all the other gods that ever "existed." If I refer to the Christian god by name, I'll use Yahweh or YHWH
I didn't use a capital g for god because I was grouping him with all the other gods that ever "existed." If I refer to the Christian god by name, I'll use Yahweh or YHWH
So this non existing Deity has a name?
C'mon.
WSS
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Does Zeus have a name? Does Mario have a name? Does Tom Sawyer have a name? If you really wanna get into this, none of those technically exist either.
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Does Zeus have a name? Does Mario have a name? Does Tom Sawyer have a name? If you really wanna get into this, none of those technically exist either.
Does Zeus have a name? Does Mario have a name? Does Tom Sawyer have a name? If you really wanna get into this, none of those technically exist either.
Actually I'm sayuing that I think you're just being snotty by not capitalizing God.
That's all.
In the same fashion one might upon meeting, ahem, Senator Boxer and purposely calling her Mrs. or Barbie.
WSS
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