Middle east palestinian Bias toward Israel the root cause?
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I don't see it as being about whether we should be pro-Palestinian or pro-Israel. Rather, it's about whether or not we should be actively engaged in the peace process.
To a certain extent, engagement requires leaning on our Israeli allies, but that's okay; Israeli PM's will often justify their actions by saying that American pressure requires them to do x.
However, it's important to note that most experts don't think anything significant can be achieved right now on a final status agreement between the two sides. It's very hard to make peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians when the Palestinians themselves are bitterly divided.
What we should be doing is establishing a series of confidence-building measures between the two sides, especially Israel releasing prisoners & loosening restrictions on movement within the West Bank. Hopefully, those measures will give the moderates within Palestinian society more credibility, thereby preventing Hamas from gaining support in the West Bank.
And it's important that we establish an international oversight mechanism to make sure each side fulfills its obligations. One of the main reasons that Oslo failed was that the confidence-building measures were supposed to be reciprocal, so each side would say, "Hey, the other guys aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing, so we don't have to do jack squat."
If there's a workable oversight team - probably the Quartet (US, EU, UN, Russia) - then each side can do its part knowing that the other side will also be compelled to act.
And as I've mentioned before, pushing Israel towards the peace table is something that also benefits Israel's long-term interests. With the looming demographic threat of an Arab majority between the Mediterranean and the Jordan, Israel must come to terms with the Palestinians if it wants to remain a Jewish and democratic state.
Though the short-term prospects of that happening aren't too positive, the next president will have to take the necessary steps to ensure it will happens within the next 8-10 years.
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Yeah, the extremists on both sides make getting anything done extremely difficult. Hamas is a huge problem, and the Jewish settlers in the West Bank would likely resort to terrorism if Israel tried to remove them from the territory. They've done so in the past (Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein).
All good reasons to be pessimistic, but also good reason for us to be actively engaged in the peace process. Obviously, the two sides aren't going to be able to solve this by themselves, and I think we have both a moral & strategic responsibility to help.
And on Sev's point about improving our image in the Arab world: I linked on the old board to an interesting Arab public opinion poll conducted earlier this year. I found this part interesting:
What TWO steps by the US would improve your views of the US most?
- Providing more economic assistance to the region (13%)
[/*
1m56yb1y][*]Pushing even more to spread democracy in the Middle East (13%)[/*
1m56yb1y][*]Stopping economic and military aid to Israel (28%)[/*
1m56yb1y][*]Brokering a Comprehensive Middle East Peace with Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 border and establishing a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capitol (50%)[/*
1m56yb1y][*]Withdrawal of US forces from the Arabian Peninsula (46%)[/*
1m56yb1y][*]Withdrawal of US forces from Iraq (44%) [/*1m56yb1y]The '67 borders thing is a little fishy, but it definitely seems like brokering peace between the two sides would significantly improve our image in the Arab world.
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I suppose out of curiosity how many of you think that or Israeli policies and support need to be adjusted to the majority (arabs) populations support of the Palestinian people.There is a powerful Jewish influential lobbying group in the United States. I know they are an important voting bloc, but maybe our policies with Israel is what is causing so much anger toward us in the first place.
When we talk of syria and Iran along with Saudi arabia, egypt etc almost all of their populations support the Palestinians. The Palestinians are suffering massively. If we TRULY wanted to wage a hearts and minds campaign in that region we need to start with this topic.
How do you think either Obama or Mccain will handle this?
AIPAC is the Jewish lobby you're referring to. Leading heads like Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz have so much pull in this country they dictate American foreign policy based on Israeli interests, not our interests. The US has contributed a majority of its foreign aide in the form of cash and weapons technology to an "ally" that does absolutely nothing for us: no natural resources and no diplomatic leverage with the international community.
I'm curious why we love a country so much that's been caught red handed spying on us. If you're unaware of this just look up information on Jonathan Pollard. If you aren't sold on the ultimate power and manipulation of AIPAC just look into the history of the USS Liberty. The Liberty was a massive naval ship sunk by the Israeli military and ultimately covered up by the US government to protect the alliance.
I'm not an "anti-semite" I just strongly question our ties with this country. Why treat them any different than Iran or Syria?
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Why treat them any different than Iran or Syria?
Israel, for one, hasn't been tied to the desire to eliminate Western culture from the planet.
I'm not saying Iran or Syria are role model countries. However, Israel's history of violence to other peoples and countries speak louder than alleged desires of other regimes. My question, once more, is why treat them different than any other country when they provide no beneficial resource to the US? It makes no sense. 95% of the citizens (not government) in every Middle East country despises Israel's policies. So in other words, if we cut off ties with Israel our war against terrorism and extremism would diminish sooner than later.
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touchy subject. I agree though.What I find odd is that a country that seperates church and state created and supports a country based on a church.
I wonder if the typical Arab sees the typical Isrealite living a great life while theirs sucks and blames it on our support and funding of Isreal?
I wonder if I give a damn????
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I don't care about what Arabs think about Israel. I think we support Israel because of the Holocaust. We supported them and still support them because of what happened. Maybe you should think before you type sometimes Mikey.
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Just askin' a question, homey.And PS, Israel didn't exist until after the Holocaust.
I realize this oh wise one. What I am trying to communicate to you is that I support Israel. I think the Hollocaust was a horrible event. I think Israel deserves our support and am proud to offer it. I'm just sayin.
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We agree here. I just think there are reasons beyond the Holocaust as well.Including the fact that a majority of the enemies of Israel happen to hate our way of life just as much. Sometimes common enemies is enough...
That seems like a cliche "they hate us because of our freedom" campaign slogan. Heres a thought, maybe they hate us because we're tailgating in their backyard and stealing their beer (oil).
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Calling the Iranian & Syrian regimes non-violent is ridiculous. Not only do both regimes use violence to repress against their own citizens, but each has engaged in massive repression of their Kurdish minorities.\ said:
I'm not saying Iran or Syria are role model countries. However, Israel's history of violence to other peoples and countries speak louder than alleged desires of other regimes.Israel's committed its share of human rights abuses, but Iran & Syria have committed more (& far more obscene) abuses. I'd suggest you read about the Hama massacre (the "Hama Rules" chapter in Tom Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem would be a good start).
And specifically talking about oppression of the Palestinians, you should read about what happened in Jordan in September 1970 (a.k.a. Black September). Or what happened to the Palestinians in Kuwait after Gulf War I.
My question, once more, is why treat them different than any other country when they provide no beneficial resource to the US?
First, your claim above that Israel receives a majority of US foreign aid is false. Though it receives the most aid of any country, the next top recipient is Egypt. Why, you ask? Because the promise of foreign aid played a large role in forging peace between Israel & Egypt.And I'd dispute that Israel "provide no beneficial resource to the US". There's a strong security relationship there that goes back to the Cold War, as well as strong economic ties. If you go to Tel Aviv, you'll immediately notice how many American businesses have R&D labs there. One of Intel's latest microprocessors was developed in Israel.
It makes no sense. 95% of the citizens (not government) in every Middle East country despises Israel's policies. So in other words, if we cut off ties with Israel our war against terrorism and extremism would diminish sooner than later.
Cut off ties with Israel? That's absurd.I'm all for us using our alliance with Israel to nudge them towards the peace table with the Palestinians, but I don't think severing ties with one of our democratic allies makes any sense.
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Just askin' a question, homey.And PS, Israel didn't exist until after the Holocaust.
I realize this oh wise one. What I am trying to communicate to you is that I support Israel. I think the Hollocaust was a horrible event. I think Israel deserves our support and am proud to offer it. I'm just sayin.
What's the point of supporting Israel? Because of the Holocaust? They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough? Do you support the billions of aide we ship over their while our country is growing its deficit? What do they do for us? Seriously, I think its a joke.
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They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough?You sound like a petulant child who was left without a chair when the music stopped.
Why you'd support regimes that despise democracy over ones that foster it is beyond me. Please re-read Alo's response to you if you are still having trouble. He can discuss this way more eloquently than I.
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Yes, that seems like a fair trade: 6 million slaughtered so that 600,000 could have a state\ said:
What's the point of supporting Israel? Because of the Holocaust? They got a whole country out it, isn't that enough?
Actually, it wasn't even 600,000 in 1948. Well, it was, but then 6,000 Israelis lost their lives fighting off the invading Arab armies.
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That seems like a cliche "they hate us because of our freedom" campaign slogan. Heres a thought, maybe they hate us because we're tailgating in their backyard and stealing their beer (oil).Wow. Your top customer that pays in advance for your product is now "stealing"? How well does that go over at a lunch?
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Ha. Thanks.\ said:
Please re-read Alo's response to you if you are still having trouble. He can discuss this way more eloquently than I.One of the things I love about this board is that I end up defending a Palestinian in one thread & Israel in another. Hopefully, I've convinced a few people here that those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
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