Phil Savage Drafts
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Tom, get a grip man. I'm asking reasonable questions here (I think that's different than "nervous questions", but I cant figure out what that is supposed to mean, so...). I agree that Phil has missed on some draft picks. I agree that we havent won the division, have had 1 winning season, etc. But your making absolute judgments on his performance doesnt make sense. Saying he has done a "bad" job only makes sense if you mean it as measured in relation to his peers. So relate it to his peers. If he's so terrible, it should be easy. Roll out your list of GMs that draft better than him consistently. If it is so obvious to not make it worth your time, then just name a handful off the top of your head. If it's right, you dont have to worry about someone checking your facts. You obviously have plenty of time to spend on this, you've devoted about 3,000 words now to NOT answering my ONE question.
Tom, get a grip man.
I would have been fine but I noticed your ending with an insult so don't SET the tone and cry when it's returned.
I gave you countles facts backing my opinion so you called them a rant. That's how you argue and I'm not like Heck that feels the need to give you compliments and smiley faces every time he disagrees with your opinion just so you won't throw a fit. Do you want to talk football or play Romper-room?
You keep assuming there is NOT a GM out there and I told you if we've found successful GMs before - they'll be some available in the future.
If Miami had your thinking after 1-15 - where would they be Tupa? So by all means - let's pretend another hotshot coordinator form a utopian environment and a GREAT Supervisor above him comes here and turns washed up players and bad draft picks into perfect draft picks. That being the case, is God available? I LOVE the idea of Cowher BUT when he felt he had an incompetant personnel guy named Donahoe - guess what happened? Donahoe got fired so I'm not sure why there's so much BLIND love and loyalty to Phil. If RAC didn't know how to coach talented players - would he have been a candidate in the first place? Did he REALLY forget every ounce of how to coach GOOD players or does he REALLY have GOOD football players? That doesn't excuse him or make me want him to stay Tupa BUT what is going to make the next guy any better if we only have a 2007 draft worth being happy about in 4 years?
What TALENTED players did you see WINNING either 10-6 ballgame this year? I only need 1 name from a roster I keep hearing has such an abundance. Talk to me: who?
- Tom F. (We know GOOD football players when we see them. The 80s made me LOVE this team. This roster isn't anything like that NOR is the character of the team)
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Great breakdown Flugs. The list of GMs better than Phil is now at an astounding ZERO. You make a great case.
6 Pro Bowlers. 10 wins a year ago. Enough talent to beat the Giants this year despite all the injuries. You cant make the case that there is no talent on this team.
Who do you want to replace Savage? Is there more than 1 or 2 guys available that you would consider, that have a better track record than him? Are there more than a handful in the league that have a better track record? Oops, I'm making you uncomfortable by asking for relevant facts, not just random ones. I apologize. I'll go play romper room (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) while you spend the rest of the day typing an unresponsive epic.
Honestly, I dont think you do want to replace Phil. Looking back at your first post on this thread, you seem as happy with him as most. His recent drafts were solid and he drafts high character guys more often than not. Now I'm left wondering why you were so upset when I said that people that wanted to replace PS should offer stronger evidence. It didnt even apply to you.
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Awesome post Flugel. When I read that I am instantly hit by the sheer amount of garbage players Phil has brought in through the draft and free agency. He has made a few nice picks, but what GM doesn't? He's below average and coupled with the way he has behaved this year and how he won't fire Romeo, well, in my book, he's garbage.
EDIT: Tupa, what planet are you on bro. Marty could come in and handle business easily.
2009-10 Browns Prediction: 8-8 -
Great breakdown Flugs. The list of GMs better than Phil is now at an astounding ZERO. You make a great case.
6 Pro Bowlers. 10 wins a year ago. Enough talent to beat the Giants this year despite all the injuries. You cant make the case that there is no talent on this team.
Who do you want to replace Savage? Is there more than 1 or 2 guys available that you would consider, that have a better track record than him? Are there more than a handful in the league that have a better track record? Oops, I'm making you uncomfortable by asking for relevant facts, not just random ones. I apologize. I'll go play romper room (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) while you spend the rest of the day typing an unresponsive epic.
Honestly, I dont think you do want to replace Phil. Looking back at your first post on this thread, you seem as happy with him as most. His recent drafts were solid and he drafts high character guys more often than not. Now I'm left wondering why you were so upset when I said that people that wanted to replace PS should offer stronger evidence. It didnt even apply to you.
Great breakdown Flugs. The list of GMs better than Phil is now at an astounding ZERO. You make a great case.
6 Pro Bowlers. 10 wins a year ago. Enough talent to beat the Giants this year despite all the injuries. You cant make the case that there is no talent on this team.
So again, I have you down for saying Bill Parcells did NOT happen to the 1-15 Miami Dolphins; because it differs from your opinion that there will never be another suitable GM for a program in need. If they used the Tommy Tupa theory they'd still have their heads in the sand justifying 1-15 because the world ran out of GMs. I like my side of this arguement better because I'm really using a RECENT fact to prove there's ALWAYS somebody.
If that one isn't good enough, I'm reading a Lindy's 2008 Preseason football magazine right now that tells me the following on page 56: "Blanc hired first-time General Manager (Thomas Dimitroff), first-time Head Coach (Mike Smith) and signed off on ridding the roster of nearly everybody and anything that reminded him of last season." Again, this would be a FACT showing you GM candidates we don't KNOW about exist for the serious owners to hire. It doesn't matter if I knew who Mike Smith was or Dimitroff was as long as they existed right? That's why I had to laugh and ask "are you serious?" If that was my job and the success of my business was riding on it - I'd give you all the names you needed. Unfortunately I don't live in the multi millionaire's club that does this for a living so I can't tell you names - I can just tell you that you're being absolutely silly for implying GOOD GM candidates don't exist simply because we don't know their names. That's absurd and you know it. SERIOUS owners found the right guys - that's ALL we as fans need to concern ourselves with. Did you even know who Mike Smith was? I'll be honest I didn't. There was a time nobody knew who Bill Polian was either - should Buffalo have adopted the Tupa logic saying if Tom Flugel doesn't KNOW who he is they can't hire him? I'm flattered but don't make a fool of yourself over it.
How about you and I place a wager for all to witness. I'll let you have the side that says there will NEVER be a new NFL GM/Personnel Director hired that gets a team out of transitional chaos efficiently. I'll use the Christopher Columbus approach and tell you the GM world isn't flat so they don't fall off the earth. More specifically, there will be some VERY good GM/Personel Directors to emerge much like a Pioli did in NE and these 2 newbies problem solving wiht grades of A+. You say there won't be another GM. You're very confident with yourself so all I can say about this bet is run it!
The only question I have remaining is how much money do you want to bet me? Put up or whimp out.
- Tom F. (How many of the 8 teams that beat us got handed a loss by Roger Goodell because we had 6 Pro Bowlers from 2007's candyass schedule? And how come Tenn is winning AFTER benching their 2006 Pro Bowl QB? How many guys on our 2002 playoff team made the Pro Bowl?)
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What planet am I on? Phil has been lauded every offseason for his work. Congrats on your 20/20 hindsight, but where was it a year ago, or two? Oh yeah, there is also the fact that most GMs miss with most of their picks; it's the nature of the beast. Alo's high water mark for drafting was around 50%, not 100.
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Show me where I said there was no one Flug. It must be easy to win an argument when you can make up shit to shoot down.
It is possible to improve at the GM position. But the fact that it has happened before doesnt mean it works every time, or even more often than not. You would be happy if Lerner brought in an unknown? You would assume that was improving our chances? You're out of your mind.
Miami brought in BILL PARCELLS. Show me another Bill Parcells and I'll jump on your bandwagon. My point isnt that Phil is irreplaceable, but that it is stupid for people to say he drafts bad just because he misses sometimes. If they want to say he draft poorly, they should be able to show GMs that do a better job. Parcells knows football better than Savage. I am in 100% agreement with that. Pioli/Belichek is better than Savage (though even they miss all the time. Just ask Chad Jackson.) But booting Phil because maybe there is somebody out there who Lerner might pick and could possibly do a marginally better job sounds like a stupid idea to me. Under your reasoning, bad teams should have a revolving door in the front office. Everytime they have a losing season, they should bring in Joe Shmoe to replace him.
There are two points here which have become muddled.
1) Some are arguing that Phil is a bad GM. Showing that he has missed on some draft picks doesnt prove this because everyone misses sometimes. In fact, depending on your criteria, everyone misses most of the time. So be more specific than naming players you dont like.
2) Some people want to replace Phil. If you want to do this, tell me who you want to replace him with. Flugs trusts that Lerner can pick an unknown to turn us around. Forget that it almost never works, Flugs sees where it has once or twice.
I've got to go.
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Well, with the Panthers as my second favorite team, Marty Hurney has had some good drafts. let's look at all of his first rounders.
Julius Peppers
Chris Gamble
Jordan Gross
Thomas Davis
DeAngelo Williams
Jon Beason
Jeff Otah
Jonathon Stewart
All but Stewart start and are big contributors. Stewert will be huge, but he backs DeAngelo Williams at this point. Peppers and Beason are in the top 5 in their positions. Gamble is good. Gross is good. Otah seems to be good. Thomas Davis starts and is decent. Williams is huge.
PS hasn't fared so well.
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Show me where I said there was no one Flug. It must be easy to win an argument when you can make up shit to shoot down.
It is possible to improve at the GM position. But the fact that it has happened before doesnt mean it works every time, or even more often than not. You would be happy if Lerner brought in an unknown? You would assume that was improving our chances? You're out of your mind.
Miami brought in BILL PARCELLS. Show me another Bill Parcells and I'll jump on your bandwagon. My point isnt that Phil is irreplaceable, but that it is stupid for people to say he drafts bad just because he misses sometimes. If they want to say he draft poorly, they should be able to show GMs that do a better job. Parcells knows football better than Savage. I am in 100% agreement with that. Pioli/Belichek is better than Savage (though even they miss all the time. Just ask Chad Jackson.) But booting Phil because maybe there is somebody out there who Lerner might pick and could possibly do a marginally better job sounds like a stupid idea to me. Under your reasoning, bad teams should have a revolving door in the front office. Everytime they have a losing season, they should bring in Joe Shmoe to replace him.
There are two points here which have become muddled.
1) Some are arguing that Phil is a bad GM. Showing that he has missed on some draft picks doesnt prove this because everyone misses sometimes. In fact, depending on your criteria, everyone misses most of the time. So be more specific than naming players you dont like.
2) Some people want to replace Phil. If you want to do this, tell me who you want to replace him with. Flugs trusts that Lerner can pick an unknown to turn us around. Forget that it almost never works, Flugs sees where it has once or twice.
I've got to go.
Show me where I said there was no one Flug. It must be easy to win an argument when you can make up shit to shoot down.
So you're whimping out on betting me as I expected. That's what your entire arguement is predicated on.
You KNOW fans don't know about a Thomas Dimitroff ANY more than they knew about a Pioli or Polian BEFORE they proved themselves. It's not my world. AGAIN, based on your arguement - IF an average FAN like me doesn't know who a Bill Polian is BEFORE he pulls rabbitts out of hats in Buffalo deson't mean they should have NEVER hired Polian Toop.
You're being absolutely silly to say because WE don't know the candidates - guys with multi-million dollar entertainment businesses should NOT either. HUH?????????? I NEVER once claimed to know who the GMs are. That shit bores me unless our's SUCKS. That said, the REASON alot of people WANTED Head Coaches like RAC and even Bill Belichick is BECAUSE they PROVED when they had STRONG Supervisors above them and they had TALENTED players to coach - they're pretty good coaches. I'm not gonna lie - I was excited about both. That said, I couldn't tell you WHO Mike Smith was nor could MANY of the other fans. Do our STs look poorly coached? There's 2 guys (Cribbs & Ponbriand) that MADE the pro bowl who didn't get called up at the last minute. Consequently our STs look like the strongest and best coached unit we have right ot wrong?
You accused me of using no facts to support my arguement that there has to be BETTER GMs out there than Phil has been over 4 years. As soon as you got in my face about that with "oh yeah name one?" I named Parcells and Dimitroff both got hired within the last year in Miami & Atlanta and BOTH hired NEW Head Coaches which fixed catastrophies rigght or wrong? Both are in the playoff hunt as we speak.
Tupa, you're making a fool out of yourself with the temper tantrum. You chickened out in betting me so stop carrying on like a baby cutting teeth. Go bury your head in the sand with those thoughts Miami and Atlanta shouldn't have hired ANYONE new at GM because Tom Flugel couldn't name them. That's just Tup-id.
- Tom F. (Folks, Tupa wants everyone to know he used to be on the debate team. I have NO idea where he wants to go now that I said Parcells and Dimitroff are FACTs that good GMs exist whether we as fans know them pre-hire or not)
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Show me where I said there was no one Flug. It must be easy to win an argument when you can make up shit to shoot down.
It is possible to improve at the GM position. But the fact that it has happened before doesnt mean it works every time, or even more often than not. You would be happy if Lerner brought in an unknown? You would assume that was improving our chances? You're out of your mind.
Miami brought in BILL PARCELLS. Show me another Bill Parcells and I'll jump on your bandwagon. My point isnt that Phil is irreplaceable, but that it is stupid for people to say he drafts bad just because he misses sometimes. If they want to say he draft poorly, they should be able to show GMs that do a better job. Parcells knows football better than Savage. I am in 100% agreement with that. Pioli/Belichek is better than Savage (though even they miss all the time. Just ask Chad Jackson.) But booting Phil because maybe there is somebody out there who Lerner might pick and could possibly do a marginally better job sounds like a stupid idea to me. Under your reasoning, bad teams should have a revolving door in the front office. Everytime they have a losing season, they should bring in Joe Shmoe to replace him.
There are two points here which have become muddled.
1) Some are arguing that Phil is a bad GM. Showing that he has missed on some draft picks doesnt prove this because everyone misses sometimes. In fact, depending on your criteria, everyone misses most of the time. So be more specific than naming players you dont like.
2) Some people want to replace Phil. If you want to do this, tell me who you want to replace him with. Flugs trusts that Lerner can pick an unknown to turn us around. Forget that it almost never works, Flugs sees where it has once or twice.
I've got to go.
Miami brought in BILL PARCELLS. Show me another Bill Parcells and I'll jump on your bandwagon.
I did - Thomas Dimitroff in Atlanta. You were just too fired up to pay attention to the speed read. Was there a bigger catastrophe than Atlanta last year? And just because the average fan didn't know who the Head Coach (Mike Smith) was or or the new GM Dimitroff was - does NOT mean success isn't possible. The rookie GM & Head Coach tandem is 8-4 as we speak. That's prolly BETTER than Parcells to be honest. I'm kind of glad Atlanta still played the game yesterday after they had to hear how many more Pro Bowlers the Chargers had than they did.
You're all about popular opinion and has it worked yet on personel choices like:
1) Tim Couch? I fell for that one BIG time - GUILTY
2) Courtney Brown? Atenears will tell you I predicted Florida's Alex Brown would be a better pro before either kid played their first NFL down.
3) Bill Belichick? (terrible winning percentage here)
4) Butch Davis? EVERY fan that told me he was the answer the day we signed him told me he was the REASON we suck. My friend Fatdaddy told me I was going to LOVE Butch way better than Chris Palmer when I expressed my concerns that I didn't think Palmer was 100% the problem. Guess who was the 1st fan to tell me Butch sucks? Fatdaddy. He had a majority agreeing.
I feel like we're right back where we were when we had BAD personnel evaluations that made the coaching look worse than it is.
For example: When you watch our STs - do they look poorly coached? THERE's where 2 Pro Bowl players are that were actually selected to the Pro Bowl instead of being subs. Point is when we have a higher percentage of more talented players on a unit - we look better coached from that unit. Coincidence? I'm gonna say no.
I LOVE Shaun Rogers at Nose tackle - he's the 1st one I've enjoyed in 4 years. If you noticed yesterday, he was on the field for a greater percentage of reps and we were better for it. Another thing was Saturday didn't play so when we had a backup NT in the rotation - he wasn't as overwhelmed. The weather limited the dome team's passing game so the end result was the defense did NOT look poorly coached yesterday right or wrong?
I look at any of these losses we've had and I ask myself if RAC was Baltimore's Head Coach using that defense with the following guys lining the middle of the field Ed Reed, Ray Lewis and Ngata and Harbaugh was OUR Head Coach - would that CHANGE DA's 3 TD passes to that defense? Does simplky swapping Harbaugh for RAC make us 2-0 vrs Baltimore this year? I'm gonna say I doubt it. Doesn't MEAN I think he's coaching our guys GREAT. It means I think Ray Lewis and Ed Reed and T Suggs and Derrick Mason and Willis McGahee make MORE plays than out playmakers. Some of the SAME guys won a SB inspite of Dilfer.
Bringing RAC here told me ONE thing - RAC is only good at coaching talented players (ie; our STs have the best talent density on the team and they look well coached). If you want to argue with BB that he sucks at coaching talented players - God bless ya. Go clobber his ass and show him your football credentials afterward so he knows who just freight-trained him.
Conclusion: After 4 years of body by Savage we NEED more good players than Cribbs, Pontbriand, Rogers, Thomas, Steinbach and Wright. We also need playmakers for that winning impact other teams are edging us out by. This team is DYING for a playmaker on these 10-6 losses and in those games we lost late leads in. If you see more than enough playmakers - then God bless ya again. We'll just keep them the best kept secret in the league pretending they are pacing themselves.
- Tom F.
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So you want us to hire a no name? Is that your argument? It wasnt something I considered before because it seems like a stupid idea. If that's your argument, fine. Let's agree to disagree. Although I will note that one of the teams you are pointing to is led by Bill Parcells, not exactly a no name, and the other has had exactly one successful offseason, not exactly the stuff franchises are made of.
I think it is an absolute joke if you think Miami and Atl are examples of GMs that are better than Phil. At this point last year, Phil looked like he had turned a shitty team into a playoff team and had found a pro bowl QB off someone else's practice squad. Now you want to fire him. Well, Miami and Atl have even less of a track record.
My original point still stands: if people are going to say Phil sucks, give us some context - compare him to something other than your ideal, something like real GMs in the real world. (thanks, Pumpkin)
My second question about who we should replace Phil with has been answered by Flugs: he wants a no name that the brilliant Randy Lerner hand picks. I think this is a ridiculous argument (Lerner has shown NO ability to find unproven football geniuses), but at least it is an answer.
Flugs obviously thinks sarcastic comments and direct questions require angry ranting responses, so I'll move on to a different topic. Enjoy Tom, this one is all yours. I'm whimping away, or playing in a romper room, or something else. I'm sure you'll spend 3 or 4 thousand words telling me exactly what.
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Well, with the Panthers as my second favorite team, Marty Hurney has had some good drafts. let's look at all of his first rounders.
Julius Peppers
Chris Gamble
Jordan Gross
Thomas Davis
DeAngelo Williams
Jon Beason
Jeff Otah
Jonathon Stewart
All but Stewart start and are big contributors. Stewert will be huge, but he backs DeAngelo Williams at this point. Peppers and Beason are in the top 5 in their positions. Gamble is good. Gross is good. Otah seems to be good. Thomas Davis starts and is decent. Williams is huge.
PS hasn't fared so well.
Well, with the Panthers as my second favorite team, Marty Hurney has had some good drafts. let's look at all of his first rounders.
Julius Peppers
Chris Gamble
Jordan Gross
Thomas Davis
DeAngelo Williams
Jon Beason
Jeff Otah
Jonathon Stewart
It's probably too soon to judge the '08 draft class.
But I calculated the percentage of players drafted by Carolina in the '05-'07 draft classes who've become starters, and it's 34.6%. Savage got a 36% on his drafts.
And in two of the three years, Carolina drafted high-profile busts in the 2nd Round: Eric Shelton in '05 and Dwayne Jarrett in '07. Jarrett may still turn things around, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
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Well, with the Panthers as my second favorite team, Marty Hurney has had some good drafts. let's look at all of his first rounders.
Julius Peppers
Chris Gamble
Jordan Gross
Thomas Davis
DeAngelo Williams
Jon Beason
Jeff Otah
Jonathon Stewart
It's probably too soon to judge the '08 draft class.
But I calculated the percentage of players drafted by Carolina in the '05-'07 draft classes who've become starters, and it's 34.6%. Savage got a 36% on his drafts.
And in two of the three years, Carolina drafted high-profile busts in the 2nd Round: Eric Shelton in '05 and Dwayne Jarrett in '07. Jarrett may still turn things around, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
Aloysius said:
It's probably too soon to judge the '08 draft class.But I calculated the percentage of players drafted by Carolina in the '05-'07 draft classes who've become starters, and it's 34.6%. Savage got a 36% on his drafts.
And in two of the three years, Carolina drafted high-profile busts in the 2nd Round: Eric Shelton in '05 and Dwayne Jarrett in '07. Jarrett may still turn things around, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
Good points, but you must remember that while Savage has a high percentage of drafteees playing, how many of them would be starting for other teams?
Every one of the 1st round picks by Hurney in Carolina could start for at least 20 of the 32 teams.
Yes, Shelton was a bust and Jarrett seems to be a bust and so was Keary Colbert.
But the first rounders have all been hits, and that seems to be the most important part.
Hurney also found Will Witherspoon (3rd) in 2002,
had relatively poor draft in 2003 but got Rickey Manning Jr. (3),
and Travelle Wharton (3) in 2004.
I'd just be happy if the Browbns would hit on their first round selections.
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pioli would be a major coup. he knows how to find guys for the 3-4 and has had great success in new england. if he's feeling underapreciated, i would hope we'd go after him.
i like savage for his talent evaluation, but pioli's even better. he's built champions from nothing in new england. while i know part of that is coaching, he's still been the guy to set the tone for the organization and put together the talent.
having him would be interesting if only to see what he thinks of the current roster.
i also would trust him to pick a great coach, even if it's someone who's failed elsewhere or a complete newbie.
pioli would be a major coup. he knows how to find guys for the 3-4 and has had great success in new england. if he's feeling underapreciated, i would hope we'd go after him.
i like savage for his talent evaluation, but pioli's even better. he's built champions from nothing in new england. while i know part of that is coaching, he's still been the guy to set the tone for the organization and put together the talent.
having him would be interesting if only to see what he thinks of the current roster.
i also would trust him to pick a great coach, even if it's someone who's failed elsewhere or a complete newbie.
Rumor is that if Pioli takes a GM job, he'll bring along Josh McDaniels to be his HC.
Not sure I'd be wild about giving a young (32) OC the head coaching job, but hiring a local guy done good would definitely give the team some good PR (or at least offset the grunts about us hiring another Pats coordinator).
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I do agree that a GM should be hired first, and that GM should hire the coach. that means more communication and accountability.
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i'm going to back off my earlier statement about being sure that pioli can pick a good HC. it turns out that he and belichick have been together pretty much their entire careers, and they went to NE together, as well.
that doesn't mean that pioli can't pick a good HC, just that he hasn't.
i don't know what to think of mcdaniels. he runs a good offense, but i don't know about him as a head coach. i also wonder how much input belichick has in drafting.
i'd still trust pioli over savage, though, and would really love it if we could get PS to stay on with pioli taking the helm, but there's no way that could ever happen.
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@jadbf said:
For all of you who are singing the praises of Parcells in Miami I'll point this out.They are 7-5 with wins over
NE before Cassel started playing well
SD who looks like crap this year.
Buf who won a few games against bad teams early and got over rated.
Seattle, Oakland, and St. Lois.
in other words. they look to me a whole lot alike the Browns did last year. a few games above .500 against one of the easiest schedules in the NFL this season.
Lets talk in two years and see how "great" just making a change at GM and head coach made them.
and for all the people claiming "you don't need 5 years to turn a team around". here is my argument. when Savage and Crennel took this team over, a 4-5 year plan was acceptable because this team was SO VOID of talent that they were pretty much starting over like an expansion franchise again. Give me any team you say "turned it around in one or two years", and I'll show you a team that at least had a foundation of some talent on the team and had a bad luck year the year before the "miraculous" turn around.
That being said, I beleive the Browns are at a point where they could go from a bad 4-12 season to a good to great season the next year. There is a foundation of talent there thanks in part to Savage. If whoever has control of this team for 2009 can fill in with a few good draft picks and the right free agents, this team can win.
As for who has that control next season? I don't even care anymore. RAC for sure has to go, I think Savage can continue to grow in his position, but don't care if he's fired also. All I can do now is pray that who ever is control next year, they do well, and so do our Browns. I'm done trying to guess who would be good at what job.
Tell me where is all this great talent Savage has brought us?
Braylon Edwards........has the drops can't make a play when needed
Brodney Pool - High 2nd round- very average safety.....how many teams would he start for?
D'Qwell Jackson- High 2nd round....Average linebacker...again how many teams would he start for
Joe Thomas= 3rd pick in the draft...no brainer...having a average year at best and thats being nice
Charlie Frye: 3rd string quarterback
Kameriron Wimbley...has done nothing since rookie season...Bust
Once again I ask where is all this supposed talent
We played a schedule last year with a bunch of bums and we put up nice stats and dominated a everyone here was fooled into believing this team had alot of talent and this was the year.
Now anyone here please name me a defensive playmaker on this team? now with Edwards in a funk name me another offensive playmaker?
Solon, says we had 6 Pro Bowlers, how many will we have this year? we might have 1 and what have those Pro Bowl players done this year? NOTHING
People its not the coaching its the players, the players we have are JUST NOT THAT GOOD
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So you want us to hire a no name? Is that your argument? It wasnt something I considered before because it seems like a stupid idea. If that's your argument, fine. Let's agree to disagree. Although I will note that one of the teams you are pointing to is led by Bill Parcells, not exactly a no name, and the other has had exactly one successful offseason, not exactly the stuff franchises are made of.
I think it is an absolute joke if you think Miami and Atl are examples of GMs that are better than Phil. At this point last year, Phil looked like he had turned a shitty team into a playoff team and had found a pro bowl QB off someone else's practice squad. Now you want to fire him. Well, Miami and Atl have even less of a track record.
My original point still stands: if people are going to say Phil sucks, give us some context - compare him to something other than your ideal, something like real GMs in the real world. (thanks, Pumpkin)
My second question about who we should replace Phil with has been answered by Flugs: he wants a no name that the brilliant Randy Lerner hand picks. I think this is a ridiculous argument (Lerner has shown NO ability to find unproven football geniuses), but at least it is an answer.
Flugs obviously thinks sarcastic comments and direct questions require angry ranting responses, so I'll move on to a different topic. Enjoy Tom, this one is all yours. I'm whimping away, or playing in a romper room, or something else. I'm sure you'll spend 3 or 4 thousand words telling me exactly what.
So you want us to hire a no name? Is that your argument?
LOL! Not even close.
Your arguement has been - name 1 guy that could do better than Phil Savage right or wrong?
I named 2 teams that found this guy. You didn't handle it well so you asked me to name someone BESIDES Bill Parcells and I did it a second and third time for you.
Since my answer was pretty much checkmate: what's your NEW angle now? Something about no-names? They might be no-names to the FANS but are they no-names to the multi-millionaires hiring them? Prolly not but I'm sure you'll disagree.
New angle = sore loser.
As You Were...,
- Tom F.
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Aloysius said:
It's probably too soon to judge the '08 draft class.But I calculated the percentage of players drafted by Carolina in the '05-'07 draft classes who've become starters, and it's 34.6%. Savage got a 36% on his drafts.
And in two of the three years, Carolina drafted high-profile busts in the 2nd Round: Eric Shelton in '05 and Dwayne Jarrett in '07. Jarrett may still turn things around, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
Good points, but you must remember that while Savage has a high percentage of drafteees playing, how many of them would be starting for other teams?
Every one of the 1st round picks by Hurney in Carolina could start for at least 20 of the 32 teams.
Yes, Shelton was a bust and Jarrett seems to be a bust and so was Keary Colbert.
But the first rounders have all been hits, and that seems to be the most important part.
Hurney also found Will Witherspoon (3rd) in 2002,
had relatively poor draft in 2003 but got Rickey Manning Jr. (3),
and Travelle Wharton (3) in 2004.
I'd just be happy if the Browbns would hit on their first round selections.
Good points, but you must remember that while Savage has a high percentage of drafteees playing, how many of them would be starting for other teams?
Every one of the 1st round picks by Hurney in Carolina could start for at least 20 of the 32 teams.
Yes, Shelton was a bust and Jarrett seems to be a bust and so was Keary Colbert.
But the first rounders have all been hits, and that seems to be the most important part.
Hurney also found Will Witherspoon (3rd) in 2002,
had relatively poor draft in 2003 but got Rickey Manning Jr. (3),
and Travelle Wharton (3) in 2004.
I'd just be happy if the Browbns would hit on their first round selections.
That's true.
Then again, you also have to wonder how many of our picks haven't developed because the coaching staff has poorly coached or underutilized them. Harrison's a good example of the latter, and I know that some people here think Wimbley's being held back by poor coaching (I'm not sure about that).
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So you want us to hire a no name? Is that your argument?
LOL! Not even close.
Your arguement has been - name 1 guy that could do better than Phil Savage right or wrong?
I named 2 teams that found this guy. You didn't handle it well so you asked me to name someone BESIDES Bill Parcells and I did it a second and third time for you.
Since my answer was pretty much checkmate: what's your NEW angle now? Something about no-names? They might be no-names to the FANS but are they no-names to the multi-millionaires hiring them? Prolly not but I'm sure you'll disagree.
New angle = sore loser.
As You Were...,
- Tom F.
LOL! Not even close.
Your arguement has been - name 1 guy that could do better than Phil Savage right or wrong?
I named 2 teams that found this guy. You didn't handle it well so you asked me to name someone BESIDES Bill Parcells and I did it a second and third time for you.
Since my answer was pretty much checkmate: what's your NEW angle now? Something about no-names? They might be no-names to the FANS but are they no-names to the multi-millionaires hiring them? Prolly not but I'm sure you'll disagree.
New angle = sore loser.
As You Were...,
- Tom F.
My exact words:
Which GMs consistently outperformed him? Is it more than a few?
You've named two or three that you think have outperformed him. Like I said, you just making up arguments to defeat. I'm arguing the same angle as always. Nice try though. Oh, and your two examples consist of less than one full season of track record.As I was...waiting for you to say something meaningful.
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We disagree about Savage....the northcutt thing you keep refering too is not real....we re-signed him before the draft.... Also When Quinn went down for the year...aren't you atleast glad we have a solid backup? The reason we kept DA in the first place was to have two good Qb's if one went down. Wish we would have just gotten a first and third for DA as a rfa and should have signed him to a minimum tender...but then we'd have dorsey at QB and Cribbs(?) as backup.
We disagree about Savage....the northcutt thing you keep refering too is not real....we re-signed him before the draft.... Also When Quinn went down for the year...aren't you atleast glad we have a solid backup? The reason we kept DA in the first place was to have two good Qb's if one went down. Wish we would have just gotten a first and third for DA as a rfa and should have signed him to a minimum tender...but then we'd have dorsey at QB and Cribbs(?) as backup.
Solon, I dig MOST of your takes and our disagreement here won't waiver my enjoyment of discussing things with you. I just can't agree Savage has done enough over 4 years even though I liked our 2007 draft. EVERY team always drafting top 15 has SOME talent. Let's not act like #3 overall picks are TERRIBLE spots for personnel gurtus to be drafting at. Savage has 2 number 3 overalls and 1 number 13 overall. Honest answer: of those 3 are people disappointed with 2 of those?
Keep in mind, Phil's idea of ideal LBer is the D'Qwell Jackson you like to remind me about all the time while he gave Andra Davis a RAISE even though he saw film of Jamal Lewis running right through our middle and Andra Davis' countless arm tackles.
Did you like Trent Dilfer?
Did you like Charlie Frye?
Are you happy with DA?
How MANY playmakers are winning us tight ball games for example like our 2 different 10-6 losses?
If you dislike RAC - want to guess who gave him a raise?
Did Kevin Shaffer look worth the amount he's making yesterday? Mathis got 2 sacks on him and he beat Shaffer so bad on the game winning fumble recovery cause by Freeney's pass rush - he wasn't even in your tv screen to TACKLE Mathis.
Winslow is shotso - he's always pushing off after 3 knee surgeries.
Edwards can't catch and MOST of that is he's a Michigan sissy petrified of contact.
I mean what talent are ya talking about besides Cribbs, Thomas, Wright and Rogers?
I'd trade Winslow right now while his name has more value than his beat up body. He doesn't look like he's running more than a 4.9 forty right now, which explains the decrease in value if we wanted to make him a slot receiver.
- Tom F.
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