Phil Savage Drafts

? Aloysius

@pumpkin-eater said:
Well, with the Panthers as my second favorite team, Marty Hurney has had some good drafts. let's look at all of his first rounders.
Julius Peppers

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Thomas Davis

DeAngelo Williams

Jon Beason

Jeff Otah

Jonathon Stewart

It's probably too soon to judge the '08 draft class.

But I calculated the percentage of players drafted by Carolina in the '05-'07 draft classes who've become starters, and it's 34.6%. Savage got a 36% on his drafts.

And in two of the three years, Carolina drafted high-profile busts in the 2nd Round: Eric Shelton in '05 and Dwayne Jarrett in '07. Jarrett may still turn things around, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.

Pumpkin Eater

Aloysius said:
It's probably too soon to judge the '08 draft class.
But I calculated the percentage of players drafted by Carolina in the '05-'07 draft classes who've become starters, and it's 34.6%. Savage got a 36% on his drafts.

And in two of the three years, Carolina drafted high-profile busts in the 2nd Round: Eric Shelton in '05 and Dwayne Jarrett in '07. Jarrett may still turn things around, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.

Good points, but you must remember that while Savage has a high percentage of drafteees playing, how many of them would be starting for other teams?

Every one of the 1st round picks by Hurney in Carolina could start for at least 20 of the 32 teams.

Yes, Shelton was a bust and Jarrett seems to be a bust and so was Keary Colbert.

But the first rounders have all been hits, and that seems to be the most important part.

Hurney also found Will Witherspoon (3rd) in 2002,

had relatively poor draft in 2003 but got Rickey Manning Jr. (3),

and Travelle Wharton (3) in 2004.

I'd just be happy if the Browbns would hit on their first round selections.

? Aloysius

@jewdago said:
pioli would be a major coup. he knows how to find guys for the 3-4 and has had great success in new england. if he's feeling underapreciated, i would hope we'd go after him.
i like savage for his talent evaluation, but pioli's even better. he's built champions from nothing in new england. while i know part of that is coaching, he's still been the guy to set the tone for the organization and put together the talent.

having him would be interesting if only to see what he thinks of the current roster.

i also would trust him to pick a great coach, even if it's someone who's failed elsewhere or a complete newbie.

Rumor is that if Pioli takes a GM job, he'll bring along Josh McDaniels to be his HC.

Not sure I'd be wild about giving a young (32) OC the head coaching job, but hiring a local guy done good would definitely give the team some good PR (or at least offset the grunts about us hiring another Pats coordinator).

Pumpkin Eater

I do agree that a GM should be hired first, and that GM should hire the coach. that means more communication and accountability.

JewDago

i'm going to back off my earlier statement about being sure that pioli can pick a good HC. it turns out that he and belichick have been together pretty much their entire careers, and they went to NE together, as well.

that doesn't mean that pioli can't pick a good HC, just that he hasn't.

i don't know what to think of mcdaniels. he runs a good offense, but i don't know about him as a head coach. i also wonder how much input belichick has in drafting.

i'd still trust pioli over savage, though, and would really love it if we could get PS to stay on with pioli taking the helm, but there's no way that could ever happen.

Sony Reed

@jadbf said:
For all of you who are singing the praises of Parcells in Miami I'll point this out.
They are 7-5 with wins over

NE before Cassel started playing well

SD who looks like crap this year.

Buf who won a few games against bad teams early and got over rated.

Seattle, Oakland, and St. Lois.

in other words. they look to me a whole lot alike the Browns did last year. a few games above .500 against one of the easiest schedules in the NFL this season.

Lets talk in two years and see how "great" just making a change at GM and head coach made them.

and for all the people claiming "you don't need 5 years to turn a team around". here is my argument. when Savage and Crennel took this team over, a 4-5 year plan was acceptable because this team was SO VOID of talent that they were pretty much starting over like an expansion franchise again. Give me any team you say "turned it around in one or two years", and I'll show you a team that at least had a foundation of some talent on the team and had a bad luck year the year before the "miraculous" turn around.

That being said, I beleive the Browns are at a point where they could go from a bad 4-12 season to a good to great season the next year. There is a foundation of talent there thanks in part to Savage. If whoever has control of this team for 2009 can fill in with a few good draft picks and the right free agents, this team can win.

As for who has that control next season? I don't even care anymore. RAC for sure has to go, I think Savage can continue to grow in his position, but don't care if he's fired also. All I can do now is pray that who ever is control next year, they do well, and so do our Browns. I'm done trying to guess who would be good at what job.

Tell me where is all this great talent Savage has brought us?

Braylon Edwards........has the drops can't make a play when needed

Brodney Pool - High 2nd round- very average safety.....how many teams would he start for?

D'Qwell Jackson- High 2nd round....Average linebacker...again how many teams would he start for

Joe Thomas= 3rd pick in the draft...no brainer...having a average year at best and thats being nice

Charlie Frye: 3rd string quarterback

Kameriron Wimbley...has done nothing since rookie season...Bust

Once again I ask where is all this supposed talent

We played a schedule last year with a bunch of bums and we put up nice stats and dominated a everyone here was fooled into believing this team had alot of talent and this was the year.

Now anyone here please name me a defensive playmaker on this team? now with Edwards in a funk name me another offensive playmaker?

Solon, says we had 6 Pro Bowlers, how many will we have this year? we might have 1 and what have those Pro Bowl players done this year? NOTHING

People its not the coaching its the players, the players we have are JUST NOT THAT GOOD

Flugel

@we-need-tom-tupa said:
So you want us to hire a no name? Is that your argument?

LOL! Not even close.

Your arguement has been - name 1 guy that could do better than Phil Savage right or wrong?

I named 2 teams that found this guy. You didn't handle it well so you asked me to name someone BESIDES Bill Parcells and I did it a second and third time for you.

Since my answer was pretty much checkmate: what's your NEW angle now? Something about no-names? They might be no-names to the FANS but are they no-names to the multi-millionaires hiring them? Prolly not but I'm sure you'll disagree.

New angle = sore loser.

As You Were...,

- Tom F.

? Aloysius

@pumpkin-eater said:
Good points, but you must remember that while Savage has a high percentage of drafteees playing, how many of them would be starting for other teams?
Every one of the 1st round picks by Hurney in Carolina could start for at least 20 of the 32 teams.

Yes, Shelton was a bust and Jarrett seems to be a bust and so was Keary Colbert.

But the first rounders have all been hits, and that seems to be the most important part.

Hurney also found Will Witherspoon (3rd) in 2002,

had relatively poor draft in 2003 but got Rickey Manning Jr. (3),

and Travelle Wharton (3) in 2004.

I'd just be happy if the Browbns would hit on their first round selections.

That's true.

Then again, you also have to wonder how many of our picks haven't developed because the coaching staff has poorly coached or underutilized them. Harrison's a good example of the latter, and I know that some people here think Wimbley's being held back by poor coaching (I'm not sure about that).

We need Tom Tupa

@flugel said:
LOL! Not even close.
Your arguement has been - name 1 guy that could do better than Phil Savage right or wrong?

I named 2 teams that found this guy. You didn't handle it well so you asked me to name someone BESIDES Bill Parcells and I did it a second and third time for you.

Since my answer was pretty much checkmate: what's your NEW angle now? Something about no-names? They might be no-names to the FANS but are they no-names to the multi-millionaires hiring them? Prolly not but I'm sure you'll disagree.

New angle = sore loser.

As You Were...,

- Tom F.

My exact words:

Which GMs consistently outperformed him? Is it more than a few?

You've named two or three that you think have outperformed him. Like I said, you just making up arguments to defeat. I'm arguing the same angle as always. Nice try though. Oh, and your two examples consist of less than one full season of track record.

As I was...waiting for you to say something meaningful.

Flugel

@solon16 said:
We disagree about Savage....the northcutt thing you keep refering too is not real....we re-signed him before the draft.... Also When Quinn went down for the year...aren't you atleast glad we have a solid backup? The reason we kept DA in the first place was to have two good Qb's if one went down. Wish we would have just gotten a first and third for DA as a rfa and should have signed him to a minimum tender...but then we'd have dorsey at QB and Cribbs(?) as backup.

Solon, I dig MOST of your takes and our disagreement here won't waiver my enjoyment of discussing things with you. I just can't agree Savage has done enough over 4 years even though I liked our 2007 draft. EVERY team always drafting top 15 has SOME talent. Let's not act like #3 overall picks are TERRIBLE spots for personnel gurtus to be drafting at. Savage has 2 number 3 overalls and 1 number 13 overall. Honest answer: of those 3 are people disappointed with 2 of those?

Keep in mind, Phil's idea of ideal LBer is the D'Qwell Jackson you like to remind me about all the time while he gave Andra Davis a RAISE even though he saw film of Jamal Lewis running right through our middle and Andra Davis' countless arm tackles.

Did you like Trent Dilfer?

Did you like Charlie Frye?

Are you happy with DA?

How MANY playmakers are winning us tight ball games for example like our 2 different 10-6 losses?

If you dislike RAC - want to guess who gave him a raise?

Did Kevin Shaffer look worth the amount he's making yesterday? Mathis got 2 sacks on him and he beat Shaffer so bad on the game winning fumble recovery cause by Freeney's pass rush - he wasn't even in your tv screen to TACKLE Mathis.

Winslow is shotso - he's always pushing off after 3 knee surgeries.

Edwards can't catch and MOST of that is he's a Michigan sissy petrified of contact.

I mean what talent are ya talking about besides Cribbs, Thomas, Wright and Rogers?

I'd trade Winslow right now while his name has more value than his beat up body. He doesn't look like he's running more than a 4.9 forty right now, which explains the decrease in value if we wanted to make him a slot receiver.

- Tom F.

Sony Reed

@we-need-tom-tupa said:
My exact words: You've named two or three that you think have outperformed him. Like I said, you just making up arguments to defeat. I'm arguing the same angle as always. Nice try though. Oh, and your two examples consist of less than one full season of track record.
As I was...waiting for you to say something meaningful.

Not trying to get between you and Flugs, but I would say Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore has drafted much better than Savage and turned last years disaster into a potential playoff team this year with a rookie head coach and quarterback.

The NY Giants, Titans, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Jets, Eagles and Green Bay GM's have drafter much lower than Savage and drafted better players and look at the Steelers drafting Woodley and Timmons 2 linebackers better than any defensive player that Savage has drafted in Cleveland.

Flugel

@pl4tinum said:
Awesome post Flugel. When I read that I am instantly hit by the sheer amount of garbage players Phil has brought in through the draft and free agency. He has made a few nice picks, but what GM doesn't? He's below average and coupled with the way he has behaved this year and how he won't fire Romeo, well, in my book, he's garbage.
EDIT: Tupa, what planet are you on bro. Marty could come in and handle business easily.

Thanks Pl4t! Have you tried following what it is Tupa THINKS he's proven to me? I had a dental procedure done and I might have too much codeine in me to follow what his arguement is anymore.

When I'm being asked WHAT GMs are consistently "outperforming" Phil Savage - it's hard to keep a straight face when his personal BEST record in the division is 3-3. If that's not enough, have we ever BEATEN Pittsburgh once since Savage came? I don't CARE what their GM's name is - all I know is there's an evironment there that makes being a Head Coach easy and there is NOT one in Cleveland. Isn't that the HOT topic all over the place right now?

Seeing how Baltimore was 13-3 in 2006 and they're heading back to the playoffs in 2008 if they continue as is - there's 2 GMs just in our own division consistently outperforming Savage. Baltimore's GM's name is Ozzie Newsome. Not sure why the freak it matters if I know who the personnel managers are. If Baltimore is better 2 of the last 3 years I hope the inconvenient truth doesn't lead us into arguing over the definition of consistency because .667 is a good batting average UNLESS it's not what Tupa needs to hear. Then we'll be at war about that too.

Since I've discussed the ONLY franchises worth counting in our own division - where does Phil rank among GMs and consistency? He's consistently worse than Balitmore and Pittsburgh. Have we swept Cincy once since he's been here? So he's dead even with them whether they're good or terrible. Should I find the same comfort Tupa finds in that?

Therefore, after further review Phil Savage is consistently worse than 66.7% of the GMs in our own division and he looks to be tied with the one iin Cincy.

I'm not willing to go back and find how many GMs were better than 6-10 in 2005 or how many were better than 4-12 the next year and I have to believe ALOT are better than 4-8 this year right? Doesn't it look liker ALOT of GMs are doing better consistently?

- Tom F. (Back to the REAL arguement - we don't have ENOUGH playmakers to win ball games like our opponents that consistently beat us do. I got their Pro Bowls right here!)

We need Tom Tupa

@sony-reed said:
Not trying to get between you and Flugs, but I would say Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore has drafted much better than Savage and turned last years disaster into a potential playoff team this year with a rookie head coach and quarterback.
The NY Giants, Titans, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Jets, Eagles and Green Bay GM's have drafter much lower than Savage and drafted better players and look at the Steelers drafting Woodley and Timmons 2 linebackers better than any defensive player that Savage has drafted in Cleveland.

At first glance, here are some facts that weaken your list:

When Phil took Edwards, TB selected Cadillac and Tenn selected Pacman. In round 2, Carolina took Eric Shelton (currently on another team's practice squad). Round 3 picks included Courtney Roby by Tenn, Ryan Moats by Philly, and Sione Pouha by the Jets. Tenn took Roydell Williams in R4, and released their 5th round pick after 1 season. TB has released and re-signed their 5th round practice squad safety a few times now.

The Eagles did find Trent Cole on day 2, but that's the only name that jumps out at me.

In '06 Tenn took VY, the Eagles got Bunkley, the Jets took Klemens in R2...

I dont have time for a more thorough analysis at the moment, but I'll get back to it later if you want.

I would agree that NYG have had an incredible few years in the draft. Baltimore had a couple good picks this year, but misses as much as Phil (day 1 picks include Yamon Figurs, David Pittman, and Dan Cody). I would attribute their turnaround as much to coaching as anything else. Also, they are starting many of the same players as they did 2 years ago when they were 13-3 (with many players drafted during Savage's tenure there). I'd have to take a closer look to say anything definitive about the other teams, but I think it's safe to say all will have a healthy list of misses.

Sony Reed

@jadbf said:
I think it depends on if you are looking for "Great" players, or merely players talented enough to be starters on most NFL rosters. And many others have listed the players that Savage has brought in that helped last years team win those 6 games.
But I wasn't making that argument. infact, if you look, I said I don't care if Savage is fired. The arguement I will continually make is that everytime someone points to the "flavor of the month" team that APPEARS to be turning it around faster than the Browns have. I can point out where that teams situation was different than the Browns when Savage was brought on board, OR i'll preach caution that said team is not as good as they appear this year. I predict Miami has a few years more of pain before they do anything in the playoffs.

And i'll reverse the argument on you. how do you know that Wimbley being a bust with only one move is not a coaching problem? How do you explain the use of guys like Harrison and other young guys throughout the Crennel years?

I also think it's funny that when you show someone the percentages of Savage's Draft picks being on rosters, it's the same as another team's GM. but the arguement becomes, yeah well the players on the other team would start on other teams before ours do. People have no factual basis on that opinion, only thier own opinion. and most of the time, they only really concentrate on the players on the Browns. I go back to my argument I have all the time with people abotu a guy like Phil Dawson. Browns fan watch every kick and every kickoff Dawson makes with huge interest and rightly so because it's thier team. but then they see a guy like Bironas make a big kick on sports center and say "we need a guy like him", even though when you compare statistics, Dawson is as good or better than the other teams kickers.

I personally believe the largest problem on this team is coaching or lack there of. I believe Savage has had his failures in the draft, and he definitely needs to improve on all the other parts of his GM duties, but I would personally keep him so that there is some continued continuity in this organization.

So if I were owner, I'd fire the coach for sure.

I'd see who is out there for both GM and coach, and then make a decision about what to do with Savage.

IF you look to hire a new GM, hire him first and let him pick his own coach.

What Savage has given us is servicable NFL players, no stars but guys good enough to play in the NFL

This is the same Phil who everyone praised for taking Ozzie when we traded down to get Wimbley and the extra pick to get the supposed next NT of the future Baba Oshiwino (SP)

This is the same Savage who passed on Justin Tuck and Brandon Jacobs 2 Pro Bowl players because of his fetish for Oklahoma players in taking the great Antoine Perkins, Savage also passed on Greg Jennings who would look nice in a Browns uniform

The same Savage who passed on Courtland Finnegan one of the top cornerbacks in the game today with the Titans a 7th round draft choice

While speaking of linebackers after D'qwell jackson, Stephen Tullloch starts at MLB for the Titans and is having a Pro Bowl season, Clint Ingram starts for the Jags

Flugel

@jadbf said:
See it's comments like that one that make me wonder how much you really know what you are talking about.
I guarantee you Jackson was not Phil's idea of an ideal LBer. As you see below. Jackson was the 8th LB drafted that year. one of which was Savage reaching for a pass rusher in Wimbley. You don't think Savage would have rather had Ryans, Carpenter, Greenway, or Lawson? ofcourse he would.

7 2 1 33 DeMeco Ryans Texans Alabama

16 3 30 94 Freddie Keiaho Colts San Diego State

19 4 19 116 Stephen Tulloch Titans North Carolina State

20 4 23 120 Jamar Williams Bears Arizona State

Which of those names jump off the page at you as being far and above better than Jackson?

If Jackson is NOT Phil's idea of ideal LBer than why wasn't he drafting MOST talented player available? He COULD have offered bart Scott MORE cake in free agency and solved that problem. He gave Andra Davis a RAISE and WHO does this knowing he will be the STAR of Jamal Lewis' Hall of Fame highlight reels? He might as well present Jamal for being a BIG part of 500 yards rushing in just 6 wonderful quarters vrs us.

Tulloch starts for Tennessee and I mentioned him on my predraft bargain list of LBers I thought would help us out. Keiaho has been solid for Indy everytime I've seen him play.

BTW, Demeco Ryans is BETTER than our first round draft pick from 2006 and he made AFC Defensive Rookie of the Year for being impactful.

In 07, I watched the Steelers add OLB LaMarr Woodley in round 2 and he was an All American at Michigan for a coach that got fired right? Doesn't seem fair that NOW both their OLBers are twice as good as both our OLBers. Kent State's James Harrison wasn't even drafted - he was a free agent.

And while we went after Matt Stewart to enrich our LBers in free agency. Pittsburgh decided to add their version of FA LBer James Farrior.

Their OTHER LBer? Larry Foote from round 4.

I just think Pittsburgh's Personnel Director/GM/Whatever is just flatout BETTER at getting the right guys. And handling EVERYTHING that goes with the job while Phil is in over his head. Is it ALL Phil's fault? NO. He went from a GOOD Supervisor to a BAD one, which did him no favor being a first time GM. Part of that is he had a fallout with Collins though and I can't pretend I know too much about the nitty gritty of it. At the time, I was a Savage rah rah so I took his side because I always bought everything he said.

I always start off the ultimate HOMER because I HATE the alternative. I WANT important guys to succeed. If you looked at my posts 2 years ago - I stuck up for Savage all the time. I even LIKED his ambition in the offseason BUT myhinsight lenses are making me ask these 2 questions:

1) After 4 years do we have enough playmakers to win games consistently?

2) Is Phil equipped for ALL the problem solving necessary?

I don't think so. When we HIRE this NEXT head coach - do we REALLY want to find out Phil was in over his head? Or do we want someone to get the RIGHT players to work with?

You're an extremely LOYAL guy and I like that about you. You can't fake passion and you don't. I'm just thinking outloud with you and PART of this is out of frustration on the season going the way it did. Thanks for your reply JADBF!

- Tom F.

We need Tom Tupa

BTW, Demeco Ryans is BETTER than our first round draft pick from 2006 and he made AFC Defensive Rookie of the Year for being impactful.

And he was off the board when Phil picked DQ. So there were no LBs you would rather have with that draft pick. Even with a couple of years of hindsight, Phil took the best available LB.

Timugen

@we-need-tom-tupa said:
And he was off the board when Phil picked DQ. So there were no LBs you would rather have with that draft pick. Even with a couple of years of hindsight, Phil took the best available LB.

You're a trooper, Tupa. Even knowing that the only responses you're going to get are novels full of rhetoric-laced hyperbole, you continue on.

Hats off to ya, man.

? Aloysius

@flugel said:
In 07, I watched the Steelers add OLB LaMarr Woodley in round 2 and he was an All American at Michigan for a coach that got fired right? Doesn't seem fair that NOW both their OLBers are twice as good as both our OLBers.

Good pick by Pittsburgh. But unless you think trading up for BQ was a mistake, I don't know how you can fault Savage for not drafting Woodley.

Kent State's James Harrison wasn't even drafted - he was a free agent.
And while we went after Matt Stewart to enrich our LBers in free agency. Pittsburgh decided to add their version of FA LBer James Farrior.

Their OTHER LBer? Larry Foote from round 4.

This is equally unfair to Savage. All three of those guys were brought in in 2002, three years before Savage got to Cleveland. EDIT: Farrior was signed in '03

Foote & Harrison had time to mature & develop, whereas Savage needed players who could contribute immediately - that's why he went with Stewart.

If you want to criticize Savage's drafts or FA moves, at least confine yourself to moves Pitt made while he was GM. It's especially unfair to mention Harrison because he took 4-5 years to develop, which is longer than Savage's been on the job.

There may be valid reasons to be disappointed with Savage, but I don't think bringing up stuff that happened in 2002 is at all fair.

? mz.

@jadbf said:
And I actually believe Savage IS IN OVER his head as GM. but not on the drafting and scouting ends. But with all the other aspects a GM needs to handle.

An absolutely astute point JADBF. He has just as many hits and misses, draft-wise, as the average GM does, but I have never really questioned Savage as a GM until he bungled this QB/coach situation this season.

We need Tom Tupa

@jadbf said:
Great points about giving guys time to develop and also, these LBers are being coached well. So in those years it took harrison to develop, he was being coached to play the way the steelers want him to. I just don't see that here

I'm not excusing RAC here, but it is one of the great benefits of having a good team that you can spend time coaching up project players. As it stands, between the holes we still have in the roster and all the injuries we've been dealt, our coaching staff has to concentrate on getting our starters ready to play on Sunday. Success breeds success for so many reasons - continuity, the coaching value of vets for rookies, the ability of coaches to focus on specifics and not have to teach their LBs to tackle or their WRs to catch, etc. Our lack of these things could be as much or more to blame for our lack of round 5-UDFA talent as coaching or scouting. Put differently, I'm not sure Pitt and NE's front offices would fare as well working for the Raiders or Bengals as they have for successful teams looking to make marginal changes each offseason.