Is it Taboo to bring back Marty Shottenheimer
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@jadbf said:
Marty is my first choice, Cowher my second for all the reason you just laid out.I also posted some statistics on another thread comparing Cowher and Marty.
I might be with you. Will go hunt down the Cowher vs Marty info you posted. Thanks.
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fact: he never went to the superbowl.....in 20+ years of coaching in charge.
stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
and who think s cowher is a god? squeelers and misguided browns fans. if you look, you'll find a post, by me, saying i will not root for a cowher led team.
high yet?
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I did some reading on the board and found some of the other posts on this topic. I think it is interesting that it took Cowher longer to win a SB than Marty ever had a chance to coach at one team. However, Cowher did make it to a SB earlier (ever).
Frankly, I don't think as Browns fans that we should be choosy. This is not an organization with any recent history of success, so a few 10 win seasons would probably do a lot for the image of the team and help us get our heads above a few of the Houstons and Baltimores out there.
Its interesting that no one can make an argument why Marty wont win, just that he wont win in the playoffs. So you'd rather have Cowher because he's won a super bowl - valid, but if we can't get him, Is there a better choice that would get us closer to that game?
I admit that I'm partial to Marty because of the history. I'm a 30 something Browns fan who was 10-11-12yrs old when he was coaching us to AFC championship games and there is a huge soft spot in me for those days. I still feel bad about the way he was let go from the Browns back then and I think this would be a great redemption story for both the Browns and Marty. I mean think about how it would feel if he did win a SB here. The guy was fired for winning 14 games, don't you think he wants to come into the league and show the Chargers how close they were to winning it all? Don't you think it would be the ultimate 'I told you so' to the Modell family if he could come in here and win the big one after all these years?
Those aren't very rational football reasons to hire him, but I get a little weak thinking about the possibility. I'm going to go take a bite of a dog bone now. . .
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Yeah, we fired him because he wasn't making it far enough in the playoffs.
Yep...and I remember being pissed when he got fired...what a problem to have. No worries though, the tribe did the same damn thing.
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I'm warming to the idea of seeing Marty again. I've been worried that it will be another Gibbs situation where the game has kind of passed him by. But if we can get a crazy-machine DC(read: fiery, young) in with him, I could be swayed, quickly.
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First I am one who thinks that RAC needs to go.
Second I am a firm believer in Cowher and hope he makes it here.
However, is it taboo to think that Marty could come back. You have to admit he is one hell of a coach. Has winning teams. Yes, the big win has always alluded him, but ever since he left and the Kosar era died. This team has never been the same.
1. Cowher first
2. Shottenheimer second
First I am one who thinks that RAC needs to go.
Second I am a firm believer in Cowher and hope he makes it here.
However, is it taboo to think that Marty could come back. You have to admit he is one hell of a coach. Has winning teams. Yes, the big win has always alluded him, but ever since he left and the Kosar era died. This team has never been the same.
1. Cowher first
2. Shottenheimer second
That's a good job by you - there's nothing taboo at all about it. The only problem is they're gonna want better than our 4 Mike Junkins playing LBer right now. The Phil Savage fans think we have great LBers. If Marty or Bill comes - that'll be the FIRST unit they will try to upgrade although we have holes everywhere.
Fraley is has more than 10 years on him as does the oft-injured Ryan Tucker.
Jamal plays like he's 50 all of a sudden
Joe J is too old
Donte Stallworth is never healthy
Willie McGinest should be turning 53 next year
Robaire Smith will be 33 or 34
As we learned we're thin at corner
Sean Jones having a 2nd knee surgery has really impacted his level of play IMO.
Winslow is ALOT slower than he once was if we're being honest. He's depreciating significantly (ie: flags for pushoffs and ability to block DEs on the edge makes him 1 dimensional and our offense predictable when he's in)
We're thin and weak in alot of areas even though the Phil Savage fans will tell us we've never been so deeo and talented.
We NEED a great coach but if we're emaciated by injuries - we're gonna Houdini to make Phil's personnel decisions work.
- Tom F. (As we've learned, I don't know what GREAT GMs are out there but if Atlanta found Dimitroff and Miami found Parcells - I'm confident those aren't the last 2 good ones that will join new teams in the NFL)
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I would take either one of them and be glad to live with it win or lose because eventually either one will win much more than lose both are proven and will rebuild the browns to exacting specs and a winning mentality..marty is a tough as nails veteran coach i say steal his son from the jets as well talk about a close and prosperous working staff and cowhers chin in a coordinators or players or refs face says it all about him i like them both..
Ryan,Spags,B.shottenhiemer are way behind these 2 in my eyes but they may not be bad 3rd plan options if lerner manages to screw it up with cowher and marty the soccer hermit obviously has a pretty bad social skill set to match his inept negotiating skills..
Getting either of these guys and letting them do their thing would most certainly forces me to view lerner in a different light..
Browns football means more than just winning to me its as much about pride in a team that is well run well organized and has a steadfast and competent plan to get to the playoffs win or lose its being run by folks that know what they are doing and arent afraid of public relations a team to where the players are actually content and know what they have to do every sunday instead of just saying what they need to do and then tanking...a team with a professional coaching staff that understands the whole game and isnt shy about being firm with his assistants or players when needed to get things back in line..
Its about gathering with family and friends who are steeler and bengal fans rather at home or at the game and everyone knowing its gonna be a tuff tuff game played by diehard players and wicked coaches alike a game of mutual respect at the outcome for fans..
Its about being part of something awesome that you have grown up with and love as much as life itself and then modell moves the team and lerner buys the expansion browns and for 10 years i have struggled to put my finger on exactly what it is the lerners are doing to take the fun out of being a browns fan and what are they trying to do with/to the team, the fans, the organization, the city then it dawned on me that instead of building the new browns like the old browns they have tried to turn us into the 49ers,indianapolis colts,new england patriots and whatever trendy team is the flavor of the year..i think most of us just want genuine cleveland browns football we already have a great identity we dont need a new one we just need to get back to smashmouth football with an attitude...
Which will require lerner to grow some balls give some power to a couple of trustworthy pros and open his wallet wide to get the right people to run his team..he needs a new president as well one that actually keeps tabs for the owner and has good pr skills..
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get really excitied when I think that Shottenheimer could come back - I get a, shall we say, ULCERS!
FIXED!
get really excitied when I think that Shottenheimer could come back - I get a, shall we say, ULCERS!
FIXED!
I think of all the coaches out there, Marty makes the most sense. If what Mort said was true, and we are at the top of his list ....this guy should be signed immediately. He's one guy who might be able to bring us back some of what we lost ....he's one man who knows how the Browns used to be, and the rich tradition and the responsibility that comes with it. I want that feeling again. There is a gleam, and I want it back.
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@jadbf said:
Marty is my first choice, Cowher my second for all the reason you just laid out.Plus, marty can actually keep Chud if he wants as the OC or bring his son in.
I also posted some statistics on another thread comparing Cowher and Marty.
Cowher was Marty's pupil. He learned you build a solid oline for a physical running attack and complement it with a very good defense. All their teams were built the same way.
Could care less about Chud to be honest. I've seen 1 Polish fire drill too many. If people are unhappy with Winlsow, Edwards, running game, and other things gone wrong - what's so warm and fuzzy about underachievement, too many false starts, terrible clock management, dropped passes and a lack of scoring? Is this where you tell me I'm over-the-top for crediting an OC for blunders under the specific unit he is in charge of? Has to be, because it would mean there isn't just 1 scapegoat. What was I thinking? I'm sorry, let's prorate it all back to the chubby feller and we're just a problem solve away from instant perfection.
Compare Chud with Lindy Infante and the VERY first thing anyone will tell me is they don't see Byner, Mack, Slaughter, Newsome, Kosar or Langhorne in the PRIMES of their careers. Then I'll have to tell them all I hear is how much talent I'm told we have in the primes of their careers. I don't concur with that thinking and the Phil Savage enthusiasts give me an earful for it. WRs that have caugght footballs for the last 12 years of their lives need a BETTER head coach to prevent drops and guys that have played Dline all their years of football need to learn HOW to stay onsides. OKAY! If #99 had as many sacks as offsides penalties - we'd be pretty happy with him so let's blame someone else. I actually think this is the BIGGEST part of our problem - we need guys entering primes, which means the draft is VERY important.
I'm left pondering the following:
1) If Fraley was demoted for old age in Philly 3 years ago - his performance was sliding or they found an easy upgrade.
2) Tucker has rarely given us a full season and he's getting too old/worn and torn to be what we need.
3) Willie McGinest has to be running on fumes at 70 years of age.
4) Jamal plus the 20 pounds he lost for 2007 = guy Baltimore no longer wanted. Too old.
5) Kellen Winslow = first impression noone wants to factor in the # of knee surgeries and staff infections that followed BUT he's not been a winning formula as one of our top weapons of attack most recently. Currently injured AGAIN. We're less predictable when he is not in because Heiden can actually BLOCK too. That said is Heiden starting material for a team thinking playoffs? Winslow still has market value because of the name and fiorst impressions why not seek some good exchange value before he's shotso? Isn't exchange value what reversed fortunes in Dallas?
6) QB = Inexcusable Inexperience vrs Inexcusably Dumb with less than impressive coaching.
7) WR Corps. Edwards' character can't hang with his innate talent. You can't tell me being petrified to get hit is 100% coaching but that HAS to come within. I'm sorry.
LBers - I'm often told Jackson makes alot of tackles but USUALLY they're where Wali Rainer made all his. When Rogers leave the field our non-instinctive LBers always tell the coach: "I got blocked." That's where you notice guys that HAVE instints or lack them. SMART first steps usually get you to the ballcarrier before girthy blockers can engage you. The ONLY time I see a guy like Zach Thomas getting blocked is when a runner cuts back against the grain reversing pursuit. Not only do we need better starters but we LOVE to blame injuries for losing so let's get some depth.9) Depth at corner and we could use a force at Safety like some of the elites in the conference has like a Pollyneedsahaircut or a Bob Sanders.
10) A RB that can hit a homerun and hndle workhorse duties. I LIKE Harrsion but he's been banged up just on minimal carries.
11) The Left side of our line is solid - BUT we're looking at QB number 3 and we have yet to see a RB surpass 100 yards rushing this season correct?
12) ALL teams have injuries like the Denver & Indy teams that beat us. They have the depth to stay in a playoff hunt WITH injuries while we have to blame the head coach for not coaching up all these wonderful draft picks phil spoiled him with. Yaaa RIGHT!
13) Is Shaffer even good enough after watching Mathis embarass him last week? When he played LT he stunk. I placed this last so he can be our Rosary Tackle. We'll just say enough prayers that he doesn'ty run into too many more Mathis types and when he does - he'll have enough blessings to handle it.
14) Impactful pass rusher. Jamir Miller's presence once elevated an average secondary in 2001 to LEAD the AFC in INTs, which was only 1 season after 5-27 football. NICE problem solve to Courtney's Chinabones Syndrome.
Should I have this many concerns if Head Coach was the ONLY symptom of our Staff Infection? I'm sorry but Staff Infections involve the Head Personnel guy whether we find this convenient or not. Firing the HC NEEDS to happen but the next guy is only going to be as good as his workforce and middle managers. We like to say Chud is GREAT - RAC Sucks, Daisher is GREAT - RAC has no association. Wish it was that simple. Let's hope we knock our 4th swing at a Head Coach out of the park because that's a BIG part of things. The other part is giving him more than just pawns to play chess with.
As you were...,
Tom F.
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@hiwaygal said:
A couple weeks ago I didn't think Marty was a good idea. To me it seemed like going back to some close-but-not-close-enough seasons (i.e. been there, done that).After reading the opinions here I'd be okay with Marty. I'd be okay with Cowher too.
I have to admit the article posted yesterday (I think) that mentioned Marty WANTS to come here certainly gave him some bonus points in my mind.
I just don't like the idea of a retread coach. I realize that there's something to be said for experience but I don't want a coach who USED TO win. I want a fresh, forceful, bright, energetic, hard working coach. Someone like Belichick but with a personality.
I think "I just want someone who can win" is a limited strategy for looking for a head coach. The ownership doesn't have a crystal ball. If they did, we wouldn't be in this situation now. So the trick is to decide on the qualities in a head coach would be right for this team and find someone who's right for the job. Personally, I'd like a coach who is good at bringing in a good team of coordinators and assistants. I'd like a coach who is skillful at motivating players. I'd like someone who can take the talent that is already on this team and craft it into a strategy that has the best chance at winning. I'd like someone who could walk in and clearly identify the weaknesses on the team and already have an idea how to eliminate those weaknesses.
So far all I've read here is the records of former head coaches. There's more to selecting a coach than their past records.
I want a coach who understands the importance of the conference rivalries. I want a coach with good communication skills. Ideally, it would be a coach who could silence the riffraff who masquerade as Browns fans. I just want a coach who is chosen for a better reason than "he used to win."
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MAR-TY! MAR-TY! MAR-TY!
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Marty was just on the phone on the football game and said that he's not likely interested in coming back to coach anytime soon. He said he's really settled in down in Charlotte and enjoying it.
F--k!
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Wait...Marty lives here in Charlotte?
Time to make a pilgrimage and beg him...
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@jadbf said:
So Tom...What were your expecatations of this team in august? How many wins did you think they would have this year when you looked at this team in August? Hindsight is a wonderful wonderful toy.
Actually, those that were here BEFORE you remember me confronting Lums about how Derek Anderson was about to face a much tougher schedule in 2008. I was the cocky soothesayer warning Lums "Beware the ides of September." Understanding we were 0-2 right off the bat - how'd I do? You can call that whatever your Phil Savage-mancrush requires you to. I feel bad you weren't smart enough to realize we played 12 youth football teams in 2007 and lost to 2 of them. We're still O-for-Pittsburgh in the Savage era so I see why you're always cranky trying to defend him. This might be a good time to wipe your chin.
Did you know RAC BEAT Pittsburgh when his Supervisor in NE gave him better players to coach. While I'm at it - RAC's defense held THE redhot Peyton Manning to just 3 points on a day up in Foxboro when NE's TALENTED offense burned Indy for 23 points. If memory serves me right, RAC's defense THIS year held Peyton Manning to just 3 points but our latest version of Trent Dilfer at QB fumbled 7 points away. See how much easier this gets when your QB is Tom Brady instead of the trent Dilfer types?
- Tom F. (When you grow up with football being your life you don't need hindsight)
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Is it taboo to bring Butch Davis back? Same dumb shit, different decade. You booed Marty out of town, you booed BD out of town, you booed Couch out of town you booed Kosar out of town, you are booing RAC and DA out of town.....nothing changes in C-town! glad I left....P.S. you will boo BQ out of town as well!
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Is it taboo to bring Butch Davis back? Same dumb shit, different decade. You booed Marty out of town, you booed BD out of town, you booed Couch out of town you booed Kosar out of town, you are booing RAC and DA out of town.....nothing changes in C-town! glad I left....P.S. you will boo BQ out of town as well!
Is it taboo to bring Butch Davis back? Same dumb shit, different decade. You booed Marty out of town, you booed BD out of town, you booed Couch out of town you booed Kosar out of town, you are booing RAC and DA out of town.....nothing changes in C-town! glad I left....P.S. you will boo BQ out of town as well!
LOL! I remembered asking a HUGE Butch Davis fan "not that I think Chris Palmer has been a success or anything but are we getting rid of the REAL problem or just the scapegoat?" His answer to me was a confident - you won't have to worry about excuses or scapegoats with Butch. As we reversed 5-27 with playoffs within 2 years we got alot of "see what I'm saying?" We weren't even halfway through 2003 and the SAME guy wanted Butch fired. That's when you gotta ask yourself HOW did Cleveland lure a guy destined to be a college football coach into the wrong world away from talent and tropical paradise for cold weather, 2 Policy-porcelin pillars named Tim & Courtney, no scholarships in a town where patience for losing has the hometown fans wanting your head just half a season after you gave them their only playoff picture in a decade?
I didn't WANT Butch but there was a brief period he actually impressed me when he problem solved Candybones Brown with Jamir Miller on the edge to the tune of our secondary leading the conference in INTs for Miller's harassment on QBs. Then Jamir blows out an achilles in the preseason of 2002 and we made the playoffs inspite of it. As far as Butch thinking he was a GM - WHO gave him that power and WHY? We never ask these questions because we're too enamored with the easist scapegoat solution. Holmgren went to his first Superbowl with Seattle the year after he gave up GM duties.
Now today when I ask a Phil Savage enthusiast if we ONLY get rid of RAC - are we solving MOST of our problems? When you get a chance on your own spare time - take a look at our depth chart. In doing so, look at age, injury history, upside, productivity. Do you honesty see this roster as close to be sufficient? Like SONY likes to say: "I don't see nearly enough playmakers on offense or defense" so that's why our opponent's usually have a couple more BIG plays than we do.
- Tom F.
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The Only thing Cleveland fans are good at, is booing. And throwing bottles! It is the same year after year decade after decade. I've been on these messages boards since 02'....been a browns fan for 40 years....all Dumb Cleveland fans want to do is poo poo on everything....and it's the little shit....like how Davis threw fazio under the bus for the fking prevent defense, or how belicheck mumbled through every interview, or simply because guys like BQ are drafted period...Some have been booing Savage and RAC before they even stepped foot in Berea, Some have been been Booing Quinn since before that draft....nothing will ever change in Cleveland without continuity and that is what Cleveland fans can't allow to happen....Policy's handling of the cap is why BD had to purge all our starting LB's after the playoff season but noone seems to recall that fact, They want to remember that Butch Davis didn't listen to ron wolf. So I say to Cleveland fans....BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Hey let's Scrap this whole organization again and let's get new coordinators, purge the roster again, hire new everybody then start bitching and booing the choices the moment people get mentioned for the new positions. RAC must go....I conceed that. But we need to continue with the 3-4 and Chud must stay! Otherwise we will be booing forever!
Is there no truth to this??? of course there is!
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