Is it Taboo to bring back Marty Shottenheimer
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@jadbf said:
Marty is my first choice, Cowher my second for all the reason you just laid out.Plus, marty can actually keep Chud if he wants as the OC or bring his son in.
I also posted some statistics on another thread comparing Cowher and Marty.
Cowher was Marty's pupil. He learned you build a solid oline for a physical running attack and complement it with a very good defense. All their teams were built the same way.
Could care less about Chud to be honest. I've seen 1 Polish fire drill too many. If people are unhappy with Winlsow, Edwards, running game, and other things gone wrong - what's so warm and fuzzy about underachievement, too many false starts, terrible clock management, dropped passes and a lack of scoring? Is this where you tell me I'm over-the-top for crediting an OC for blunders under the specific unit he is in charge of? Has to be, because it would mean there isn't just 1 scapegoat. What was I thinking? I'm sorry, let's prorate it all back to the chubby feller and we're just a problem solve away from instant perfection.
Compare Chud with Lindy Infante and the VERY first thing anyone will tell me is they don't see Byner, Mack, Slaughter, Newsome, Kosar or Langhorne in the PRIMES of their careers. Then I'll have to tell them all I hear is how much talent I'm told we have in the primes of their careers. I don't concur with that thinking and the Phil Savage enthusiasts give me an earful for it. WRs that have caugght footballs for the last 12 years of their lives need a BETTER head coach to prevent drops and guys that have played Dline all their years of football need to learn HOW to stay onsides. OKAY! If #99 had as many sacks as offsides penalties - we'd be pretty happy with him so let's blame someone else. I actually think this is the BIGGEST part of our problem - we need guys entering primes, which means the draft is VERY important.
I'm left pondering the following:
1) If Fraley was demoted for old age in Philly 3 years ago - his performance was sliding or they found an easy upgrade.
2) Tucker has rarely given us a full season and he's getting too old/worn and torn to be what we need.
3) Willie McGinest has to be running on fumes at 70 years of age.
4) Jamal plus the 20 pounds he lost for 2007 = guy Baltimore no longer wanted. Too old.
5) Kellen Winslow = first impression noone wants to factor in the # of knee surgeries and staff infections that followed BUT he's not been a winning formula as one of our top weapons of attack most recently. Currently injured AGAIN. We're less predictable when he is not in because Heiden can actually BLOCK too. That said is Heiden starting material for a team thinking playoffs? Winslow still has market value because of the name and fiorst impressions why not seek some good exchange value before he's shotso? Isn't exchange value what reversed fortunes in Dallas?
6) QB = Inexcusable Inexperience vrs Inexcusably Dumb with less than impressive coaching.
7) WR Corps. Edwards' character can't hang with his innate talent. You can't tell me being petrified to get hit is 100% coaching but that HAS to come within. I'm sorry.
LBers - I'm often told Jackson makes alot of tackles but USUALLY they're where Wali Rainer made all his. When Rogers leave the field our non-instinctive LBers always tell the coach: "I got blocked." That's where you notice guys that HAVE instints or lack them. SMART first steps usually get you to the ballcarrier before girthy blockers can engage you. The ONLY time I see a guy like Zach Thomas getting blocked is when a runner cuts back against the grain reversing pursuit. Not only do we need better starters but we LOVE to blame injuries for losing so let's get some depth.9) Depth at corner and we could use a force at Safety like some of the elites in the conference has like a Pollyneedsahaircut or a Bob Sanders.
10) A RB that can hit a homerun and hndle workhorse duties. I LIKE Harrsion but he's been banged up just on minimal carries.
11) The Left side of our line is solid - BUT we're looking at QB number 3 and we have yet to see a RB surpass 100 yards rushing this season correct?
12) ALL teams have injuries like the Denver & Indy teams that beat us. They have the depth to stay in a playoff hunt WITH injuries while we have to blame the head coach for not coaching up all these wonderful draft picks phil spoiled him with. Yaaa RIGHT!
13) Is Shaffer even good enough after watching Mathis embarass him last week? When he played LT he stunk. I placed this last so he can be our Rosary Tackle. We'll just say enough prayers that he doesn'ty run into too many more Mathis types and when he does - he'll have enough blessings to handle it.
14) Impactful pass rusher. Jamir Miller's presence once elevated an average secondary in 2001 to LEAD the AFC in INTs, which was only 1 season after 5-27 football. NICE problem solve to Courtney's Chinabones Syndrome.
Should I have this many concerns if Head Coach was the ONLY symptom of our Staff Infection? I'm sorry but Staff Infections involve the Head Personnel guy whether we find this convenient or not. Firing the HC NEEDS to happen but the next guy is only going to be as good as his workforce and middle managers. We like to say Chud is GREAT - RAC Sucks, Daisher is GREAT - RAC has no association. Wish it was that simple. Let's hope we knock our 4th swing at a Head Coach out of the park because that's a BIG part of things. The other part is giving him more than just pawns to play chess with.
As you were...,
Tom F.
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@hiwaygal said:
A couple weeks ago I didn't think Marty was a good idea. To me it seemed like going back to some close-but-not-close-enough seasons (i.e. been there, done that).After reading the opinions here I'd be okay with Marty. I'd be okay with Cowher too.
I have to admit the article posted yesterday (I think) that mentioned Marty WANTS to come here certainly gave him some bonus points in my mind.
I just don't like the idea of a retread coach. I realize that there's something to be said for experience but I don't want a coach who USED TO win. I want a fresh, forceful, bright, energetic, hard working coach. Someone like Belichick but with a personality.
I think "I just want someone who can win" is a limited strategy for looking for a head coach. The ownership doesn't have a crystal ball. If they did, we wouldn't be in this situation now. So the trick is to decide on the qualities in a head coach would be right for this team and find someone who's right for the job. Personally, I'd like a coach who is good at bringing in a good team of coordinators and assistants. I'd like a coach who is skillful at motivating players. I'd like someone who can take the talent that is already on this team and craft it into a strategy that has the best chance at winning. I'd like someone who could walk in and clearly identify the weaknesses on the team and already have an idea how to eliminate those weaknesses.
So far all I've read here is the records of former head coaches. There's more to selecting a coach than their past records.
I want a coach who understands the importance of the conference rivalries. I want a coach with good communication skills. Ideally, it would be a coach who could silence the riffraff who masquerade as Browns fans. I just want a coach who is chosen for a better reason than "he used to win."
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MAR-TY! MAR-TY! MAR-TY!
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Marty was just on the phone on the football game and said that he's not likely interested in coming back to coach anytime soon. He said he's really settled in down in Charlotte and enjoying it.
F--k!
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Wait...Marty lives here in Charlotte?
Time to make a pilgrimage and beg him...
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@jadbf said:
So Tom...What were your expecatations of this team in august? How many wins did you think they would have this year when you looked at this team in August? Hindsight is a wonderful wonderful toy.
Actually, those that were here BEFORE you remember me confronting Lums about how Derek Anderson was about to face a much tougher schedule in 2008. I was the cocky soothesayer warning Lums "Beware the ides of September." Understanding we were 0-2 right off the bat - how'd I do? You can call that whatever your Phil Savage-mancrush requires you to. I feel bad you weren't smart enough to realize we played 12 youth football teams in 2007 and lost to 2 of them. We're still O-for-Pittsburgh in the Savage era so I see why you're always cranky trying to defend him. This might be a good time to wipe your chin.
Did you know RAC BEAT Pittsburgh when his Supervisor in NE gave him better players to coach. While I'm at it - RAC's defense held THE redhot Peyton Manning to just 3 points on a day up in Foxboro when NE's TALENTED offense burned Indy for 23 points. If memory serves me right, RAC's defense THIS year held Peyton Manning to just 3 points but our latest version of Trent Dilfer at QB fumbled 7 points away. See how much easier this gets when your QB is Tom Brady instead of the trent Dilfer types?
- Tom F. (When you grow up with football being your life you don't need hindsight)
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Is it taboo to bring Butch Davis back? Same dumb shit, different decade. You booed Marty out of town, you booed BD out of town, you booed Couch out of town you booed Kosar out of town, you are booing RAC and DA out of town.....nothing changes in C-town! glad I left....P.S. you will boo BQ out of town as well!
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Is it taboo to bring Butch Davis back? Same dumb shit, different decade. You booed Marty out of town, you booed BD out of town, you booed Couch out of town you booed Kosar out of town, you are booing RAC and DA out of town.....nothing changes in C-town! glad I left....P.S. you will boo BQ out of town as well!
Is it taboo to bring Butch Davis back? Same dumb shit, different decade. You booed Marty out of town, you booed BD out of town, you booed Couch out of town you booed Kosar out of town, you are booing RAC and DA out of town.....nothing changes in C-town! glad I left....P.S. you will boo BQ out of town as well!
LOL! I remembered asking a HUGE Butch Davis fan "not that I think Chris Palmer has been a success or anything but are we getting rid of the REAL problem or just the scapegoat?" His answer to me was a confident - you won't have to worry about excuses or scapegoats with Butch. As we reversed 5-27 with playoffs within 2 years we got alot of "see what I'm saying?" We weren't even halfway through 2003 and the SAME guy wanted Butch fired. That's when you gotta ask yourself HOW did Cleveland lure a guy destined to be a college football coach into the wrong world away from talent and tropical paradise for cold weather, 2 Policy-porcelin pillars named Tim & Courtney, no scholarships in a town where patience for losing has the hometown fans wanting your head just half a season after you gave them their only playoff picture in a decade?
I didn't WANT Butch but there was a brief period he actually impressed me when he problem solved Candybones Brown with Jamir Miller on the edge to the tune of our secondary leading the conference in INTs for Miller's harassment on QBs. Then Jamir blows out an achilles in the preseason of 2002 and we made the playoffs inspite of it. As far as Butch thinking he was a GM - WHO gave him that power and WHY? We never ask these questions because we're too enamored with the easist scapegoat solution. Holmgren went to his first Superbowl with Seattle the year after he gave up GM duties.
Now today when I ask a Phil Savage enthusiast if we ONLY get rid of RAC - are we solving MOST of our problems? When you get a chance on your own spare time - take a look at our depth chart. In doing so, look at age, injury history, upside, productivity. Do you honesty see this roster as close to be sufficient? Like SONY likes to say: "I don't see nearly enough playmakers on offense or defense" so that's why our opponent's usually have a couple more BIG plays than we do.
- Tom F.
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The Only thing Cleveland fans are good at, is booing. And throwing bottles! It is the same year after year decade after decade. I've been on these messages boards since 02'....been a browns fan for 40 years....all Dumb Cleveland fans want to do is poo poo on everything....and it's the little shit....like how Davis threw fazio under the bus for the fking prevent defense, or how belicheck mumbled through every interview, or simply because guys like BQ are drafted period...Some have been booing Savage and RAC before they even stepped foot in Berea, Some have been been Booing Quinn since before that draft....nothing will ever change in Cleveland without continuity and that is what Cleveland fans can't allow to happen....Policy's handling of the cap is why BD had to purge all our starting LB's after the playoff season but noone seems to recall that fact, They want to remember that Butch Davis didn't listen to ron wolf. So I say to Cleveland fans....BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Hey let's Scrap this whole organization again and let's get new coordinators, purge the roster again, hire new everybody then start bitching and booing the choices the moment people get mentioned for the new positions. RAC must go....I conceed that. But we need to continue with the 3-4 and Chud must stay! Otherwise we will be booing forever!
Is there no truth to this??? of course there is!
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The Only thing Cleveland fans are good at, is booing. And throwing bottles! It is the same year after year decade after decade. I've been on these messages boards since 02'....been a browns fan for 40 years....all Dumb Cleveland fans want to do is poo poo on everything....and it's the little shit....like how Davis threw fazio under the bus for the fking prevent defense, or how belicheck mumbled through every interview, or simply because guys like BQ are drafted period...Some have been booing Savage and RAC before they even stepped foot in Berea, Some have been been Booing Quinn since before that draft....nothing will ever change in Cleveland without continuity and that is what Cleveland fans can't allow to happen....Policy's handling of the cap is why BD had to purge all our starting LB's after the playoff season but noone seems to recall that fact, They want to remember that Butch Davis didn't listen to ron wolf. So I say to Cleveland fans....BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Hey let's Scrap this whole organization again and let's get new coordinators, purge the roster again, hire new everybody then start bitching and booing the choices the moment people get mentioned for the new positions. RAC must go....I conceed that. But we need to continue with the 3-4 and Chud must stay! Otherwise we will be booing forever!
Is there no truth to this??? of course there is!
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@hiwaygal said:
Kathy - I respect your opinion and understand why you feel the way you do.At this point I'm thinking that Cowher or Marty would only be a short term solution. I think one of these two give us the best chance to win with the talent we've got and we can see vast improvement in a short time (maybe 2 years).
In the meantime whoever it is can train/mentor someone who is exactly like you describe. And that would be our long term direction.
Neither Cowher nor Marty are wanting to come back for the long haul...but they still have some fire in them that can maybe jump start this team.
I think if Cowher were to coach for the Browns, even if the team wins it all, the only thing we're going to hear from Steeler fans is that the Browns couldn't get a coach of their own, they had to take one from the Steelers. Blecch.
As for Marty, he's coached here before and to me that feels like a step backwards rather than a step into the future.
Woof Woof, Kathy http://cognitivemanifesto.com/ http://www.skadden.com/index.cfm?contentID=49&officeID=9 Bendix ESP -
I don't care what Steelers fans have to say if Cowher coaches here. They seem to conveniently forget that he was a Browns player and coach before he went to the Steelers so they got their great coach from us to begin with.
I'd take either Marty or Cowher...I think both would immediately turn the franchise around. Marty coached the Chargers to 14-2 just 2 seasons ago...it's not like he's been out of the league for years. The Chargers have gotten worse without him and the word around San Diego is that Norv Turner is going to be fired...think they wish they had kept Marty after the 14-2 season?
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@hiwaygal said:
Kathy - I respect your opinion and understand why you feel the way you do.At this point I'm thinking that Cowher or Marty would only be a short term solution. I think one of these two give us the best chance to win with the talent we've got and we can see vast improvement in a short time (maybe 2 years).
In the meantime whoever it is can train/mentor someone who is exactly like you describe. And that would be our long term direction.
Neither Cowher nor Marty are wanting to come back for the long haul...but they still have some fire in them that can maybe jump start this team.
I think if Cowher were to coach for the Browns, even if the team wins it all, the only thing we're going to hear from Steeler fans is that the Browns couldn't get a coach of their own, they had to take one from the Steelers. Blecch.
As for Marty, he's coached here before and to me that feels like a step backwards rather than a step into the future.
I think if Cowher were to coach for the Browns, even if the team wins it all, the only thing we're going to hear from Steeler fans is that the Browns couldn't get a coach of their own, they had to take one from the Steelers. Blecch.
As for Marty, he's coached here before and to me that feels like a step backwards rather than a step into the future.
Kathy,
The BEST way to deal with that is to remind the Steeler fans WHERE Cowher and Noll and even Shula got their NFL baptisms as players. In Cleveland. So in essence, we've gone full circle from seeing Pittsburgh look to Cleveland to appear on the NFL map. Same thing here.
- Tom F. (Some of the best dynasties and coaches have deep roots to the Browns and Paul Brown)
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