REAL Browns fans answer a question please
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Obviously there are always going to be vestiges of bad feelings toward Modell...there are even slight vestiges of resentment toward the Lerner family who now own the Browns because of Al's role in that situation. Those resentments could have been appeased had this team not struggled through so many losing seasons and regime changes during the Lerner's ownership tenure.
In terms of the Ravens, the fact that Modell was forced to sell his team by the NFL basically constituted a whole "We told you so". With Biscotti, a hometown guy taking over things are less intense in terms of hatred toward the Ravens.
The other difference between Baltimore and Cleveland is that we did NOT lose our franchise the way you did. In essence all that occurred was a change of ownership of the franchise and many many NFL franchises go through ownership changes. Franchises change coaches/players/GMs on a constant basis. Take any team that has had an owership change in the last 20 years and their appearance is the same essetially as the Browns. The Browns simply took a little hiatus.
Remember this too: The Browns have been playing football on the same field longer than any team in the NFL. That patch of turf on the shores of Lake Erie has been the Browns home since 1946. They tore down an old stadium and built up a new one around it, but the patch of grass is the same, figuratively.
You are 100% correct. We lost the Colts at the hands of a drunken, miserable human being named Bob Irsay. Mr. Modell moved the Browns for financial reasons, but did in fact leave all of the team's history in Cleveland. Irsay told us that we could keep the Colts' colors and heritage for $25 million. The sad fact is, had we been awarded an expansion team in '93, as opposed to the disgrace that is Jacksonville, this conversation would never be taking place. But I can't help but think that Mr. Modell not only saved football in Cleveland, by "selling" his part of the team, but he also restored football to a place that essentially put the game on the map in Baltimore (1958 Championship game against the NY Giants.) For that alone, he's a Hall of Famer in my opinion.
You are 100% correct. We lost the Colts at the hands of a drunken, miserable human being named Bob Irsay. Mr. Modell moved the Browns for financial reasons, but did in fact leave all of the team's history in Cleveland.
Don't think for a second that Modell did that for eleomosynary reasons. That was a condition forced on him by the NFL and the court settlement.
Irsay told us that we could keep the Colts' colors and heritage for $25 million.
Yea, and it was Modell who refused to pay it. So, blame him for that. Was it not worth that?
The sad fact is, had we been awarded an expansion team in '93, as opposed to the disgrace that is Jacksonville, this conversation would never be taking place.
Fair enough...as far as Baltimore is concerned....except that it would simply have been one of the other cities that were trolling for a team that Modell would have sold out to, like Jacksonville etc.
But I can't help but think that Mr. Modell not only saved football in Cleveland, (well, your thought processes are malfunctioning)by "selling" his part of the team, but he also restored football to a place that essentially put the game on the map in Baltimore (1958 Championship game against the NY Giants.) For that alone, he's a Hall of Famer in my opinion.
But he didn't do it for that reason. He did it for the money. All he cared about was your money, not your history.
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Ok, but here is a question.
Why isn't the same venom hurled at the Irsay family? Why wasn't Baltimore guaranteed to get it's team back by the NFL, the way Cleveland was? Why isn't the Irsay name drug across the floor the way Mr. Modell's is? And, if Al Davis is in the Hall of Fame, why exclude Mr. Modell?
Ok, but here is a question.
Why isn't the same venom hurled at the Irsay family? Why wasn't Baltimore guaranteed to get it's team back by the NFL, the way Cleveland was? Why isn't the Irsay name drug across the floor the way Mr. Modell's is? And, if Al Davis is in the Hall of Fame, why exclude Mr. Modell?
It's a good question. My question to you is why didn't Baltimore fans organize like Cleveland fans did and fight the move? I feel for you guys for sure, and the reason I don't take issue with Ravens fans and don't have as much hatred toward them as the Steelers, is; A) there are virtually NO Ravens fans in NE Ohio while there are many Steelers fans here, who love to talk shit... and
Most Ravens fans that I have talked to or blogged with genuinely felt bad for Cleveland because of what transpired with the Colts. They wanted a team, but not at the expense of another city losing their team. Here is a little tid bit... do you know that when the league was looking to expand that Baltimore was a leading candidate to either get the Jags or Panthers, and Modell voted against Baltimore getting one of the expansion teams? Gee wonder why. Oh well. What's done is done. If he gets into the HOF so be it. We've been kicked in the nuts in this town so many times, so what's one more? It's not like I'm going to be down there rioting or anything like that. I would hope that others in my fanbase would not risk jail for something like this. It's just not worth it.
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Ok, but here is a question.
Why isn't the same venom hurled at the Irsay family? Why wasn't Baltimore guaranteed to get it's team back by the NFL, the way Cleveland was? Why isn't the Irsay name drug across the floor the way Mr. Modell's is? And, if Al Davis is in the Hall of Fame, why exclude Mr. Modell?
Ok, but here is a question.
Why isn't the same venom hurled at the Irsay family? Why wasn't Baltimore guaranteed to get it's team back by the NFL, the way Cleveland was? Why isn't the Irsay name drug across the floor the way Mr. Modell's is? And, if Al Davis is in the Hall of Fame, why exclude Mr. Modell?
Several items: 1. Are you telling us that the people of Baltimore didn't spew venom at Irsay? Isn't it you job, not ours to do that and to drag his name across the floor? You want US to fight that battle for YOU? (though I will say that yes, there was plenty of venom thrown Irsays way by Browns fans).
2. Baltimore did not have the legal hammer over Irsay that Cleveland did over Modell. Cleveland had a binding, rock solid lease that required specific performance of having the Browns play at Muni. stadium. Apparently you did not have that. Your lawyers weren't as good as our lawyers.
3. Davis is in the HOF in his capacity as a coach and GM and Commisioner of the AFL, not as an Owner.
4. Modell will be omitted from the HOF because he is a schmekel.
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Obviously there are always going to be vestiges of bad feelings toward Modell...there are even slight vestiges of resentment toward the Lerner family who now own the Browns because of Al's role in that situation. Those resentments could have been appeased had this team not struggled through so many losing seasons and regime changes during the Lerner's ownership tenure.
In terms of the Ravens, the fact that Modell was forced to sell his team by the NFL basically constituted a whole "We told you so". With Biscotti, a hometown guy taking over things are less intense in terms of hatred toward the Ravens.
The other difference between Baltimore and Cleveland is that we did NOT lose our franchise the way you did. In essence all that occurred was a change of ownership of the franchise and many many NFL franchises go through ownership changes. Franchises change coaches/players/GMs on a constant basis. Take any team that has had an owership change in the last 20 years and their appearance is the same essetially as the Browns. The Browns simply took a little hiatus.
Remember this too: The Browns have been playing football on the same field longer than any team in the NFL. That patch of turf on the shores of Lake Erie has been the Browns home since 1946. They tore down an old stadium and built up a new one around it, but the patch of grass is the same, figuratively.
At least you admit that your current ownership group played a part in the move.
At least you admit that your current ownership group played a part in the move.
Why would anyone ever deny that? (though I think it was all Al Lerner himself, not Randy or his sister...but yes, it is the same family)
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Ok, but here is a question.
Why isn't the same venom hurled at the Irsay family? Why wasn't Baltimore guaranteed to get it's team back by the NFL, the way Cleveland was? Why isn't the Irsay name drug across the floor the way Mr. Modell's is? And, if Al Davis is in the Hall of Fame, why exclude Mr. Modell?
It's a good question. My question to you is why didn't Baltimore fans organize like Cleveland fans did and fight the move? I feel for you guys for sure, and the reason I don't take issue with Ravens fans and don't have as much hatred toward them as the Steelers, is; A) there are virtually NO Ravens fans in NE Ohio while there are many Steelers fans here, who love to talk shit... and
Most Ravens fans that I have talked to or blogged with genuinely felt bad for Cleveland because of what transpired with the Colts. They wanted a team, but not at the expense of another city losing their team. Here is a little tid bit... do you know that when the league was looking to expand that Baltimore was a leading candidate to either get the Jags or Panthers, and Modell voted against Baltimore getting one of the expansion teams? Gee wonder why. Oh well. What's done is done. If he gets into the HOF so be it. We've been kicked in the nuts in this town so many times, so what's one more? It's not like I'm going to be down there rioting or anything like that. I would hope that others in my fanbase would not risk jail for something like this. It's just not worth it.
It's a good question. My question to you is why didn't Baltimore fans organize like Cleveland fans did and fight the move?
As much as we would like to think otherwise, the "fans organizing" had little or nothing to do with the "save" of the team. It was all based on the legalities of the lease. We could have screamed bloody murder....and we did....and it would have done us no good if not for the lease conditions.
I feel for you guys for sure, and the reason I don't take issue with Ravens fans and don't have as much hatred toward them as the Steelers, is; A) there are virtually NO Ravens fans in NE Ohio while there are many Steelers fans here, who love to talk shit... and
Most Ravens fans that I have talked to or blogged with genuinely felt bad for Cleveland because of what transpired with the Colts. They wanted a team, but not at the expense of another city losing their team. Here is a little tid bit... do you know that when the league was looking to expand that Baltimore was a leading candidate to either get the Jags or Panthers, and Modell voted against Baltimore getting one of the expansion teams? Gee wonder why.
People think it was because he had his eye on Baltimore. That wasn't it. He truly felt that Baltimore didn't deserve a team....not, as least until they offered him 75 mill. cash to move his team there.
Oh well. What's done is done. If he gets into the HOF so be it. We've been kicked in the nuts in this town so many times, so what's one more? It's not like I'm going to be down there rioting or anything like that. I would hope that others in my fanbase would not risk jail for something like this. It's just not worth it.
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First of all let me say that I have been a frequent visitor to this site, and I admire the passion of the REAL Browns fans on this board. Also, the knowledge of the game of football exhibited by Browns fans on this site trumps that of some of the fans on my Ravens message board. So with that in mind, I want to ask those fans a question...
As a Baltimore Ravens fan, I'm asking...are the REAL Browns fans over the move to Baltimore by Art Modell?
Keep in mind that Iam an old Baltimore Colts fan who still harbors a grudge with anything named Irsay. The two moves aren't comparable, as far as I'm concerned, but I want to hear the opinions of the REAL Cleveland football fans. Steeler fans, keep your dirty opinions to yourself.
Good question.. with me it's not simple, but I am over the move. My resentments lie elsewhere....
1) My opinion is that the NFL should never have put the new Browns and Ratbirds in the same division. We Browns fans are reminded of Modell's betrayal twice per year.
2) I never harbored a grudge against Baltimore fans, as you guys got screwed over by Irsay. The NFL should have awarded you guys a franchise, but went with Jacksonville instead....I wonder if our buddy Art had any influence on that, who knows..
3) It's also ironic that Irsay's Colts actually screwed us over as well, by lying down vs. another carpetbagger team, the Tennessee Titans in 2007's last game. Yes, the Browns lost to Cincy & Arizona down the stretch, but as a Colts season ticket holder, you pay for a major league ticket (P Manning), and instead you get minor league (Sorgi).
4) I'm assuming you've adopted the Ravens, but it can't be comfortable. I say they belong in the AFC East, but hell, who cares right? The NFL gave us our history & colors, along with a bitch-slap having to play you guys twice.
5) Damn, maybe I'm not as over this as I thought!!!!
Good question.. with me it's not simple, but I am over the move. My resentments lie elsewhere....
1) My opinion is that the NFL should never have put the new Browns and Ratbirds in the same division. We Browns fans are reminded of Modell's betrayal twice per year.
2) I never harbored a grudge against Baltimore fans, as you guys got screwed over by Irsay. The NFL should have awarded you guys a franchise, but went with Jacksonville instead....I wonder if our buddy Art had any influence on that, who knows..
3) It's also ironic that Irsay's Colts actually screwed us over as well, by lying down vs. another carpetbagger team, the Tennessee Titans in 2007's last game. Yes, the Browns lost to Cincy & Arizona down the stretch, but as a Colts season ticket holder, you pay for a major league ticket (P Manning), and instead you get minor league (Sorgi).
4) I'm assuming you've adopted the Ravens, but it can't be comfortable. I say they belong in the AFC East, but hell, who cares right? The NFL gave us our history & colors, along with a bitch-slap having to play you guys twice.
5) Damn, maybe I'm not as over this as I thought!!!!
I agree with all but one of your points and that being the first one. I like the fact that the Browns and Ravens are in the same division. As far as the betrayal. Modell is no longer the owner with the exception of a minute share of the team. Furthermore, there are no players left on the Ravens from that former Browns team. All in all, you and I are on the same page. As to the bitch slap that the NFL gave us... I gues I feel they screwed us in waiting until last minute to name Lerner/Policy as the ownership group, and the fact they gave us jack shit for a free agent pool. Maybe they did it on purpose?? I mean, Modell was respected by all of the other owners, and in fact only 2 voted against the move. Maybe the NFL slapped us in the face as payback for the fuss that we as fans made??? If that is the case, too bad. I'm sorry, but one thing you don't do is f*** with Cleveland, or NE Ohio, and not expect a major backlash! We are a scrappy bunch here in NE Ohio.
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I would say that grudge is still there.
IMO: It cost the city of Cleveland a SB trophy. As fans we knew that the browns were getting close to pulling the trigger and accomplishing getting to the SB. There was still a lot of veteran players that made up the nucleous of the Ravens roster the year they won it all.
So if you ask me if I like Baltimore, Hell No!
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Gipper, I realize the lease was an issue and played into the reasoning for allowing Cleveland to keep the Browns legacy. However; another theory that I have heard is that Modell was more than willing to drop the Browns name, as he knew that the team was named after it's first legendary coach, and wanted to distance himself from Paul Brown's name all together.
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Schmodell and his stinkin stench will never be forgiven.
He doesn't deserve anything. And Ben Rapistburger doesn't deserve an honorary teaching degree and a job
coaching women's sports just because he did do some good things on the field in the NFL.
It's steeler week. Why does a fan of the dirty, stupid, stinkin ratbirds bring up sleazeball schmodell? Forget him, he's trash.
Oh, btw, I will always hold a grudge about losing our team for a while. It's a good question: "Why didn't the Baltimore Colt fans
demand their team back, like we Browns fans did?"
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Good question.. with me it's not simple, but I am over the move. My resentments lie elsewhere....
1) My opinion is that the NFL should never have put the new Browns and Ratbirds in the same division. We Browns fans are reminded of Modell's betrayal twice per year.
2) I never harbored a grudge against Baltimore fans, as you guys got screwed over by Irsay. The NFL should have awarded you guys a franchise, but went with Jacksonville instead....I wonder if our buddy Art had any influence on that, who knows..
3) It's also ironic that Irsay's Colts actually screwed us over as well, by lying down vs. another carpetbagger team, the Tennessee Titans in 2007's last game. Yes, the Browns lost to Cincy & Arizona down the stretch, but as a Colts season ticket holder, you pay for a major league ticket (P Manning), and instead you get minor league (Sorgi).
4) I'm assuming you've adopted the Ravens, but it can't be comfortable. I say they belong in the AFC East, but hell, who cares right? The NFL gave us our history & colors, along with a bitch-slap having to play you guys twice.
5) Damn, maybe I'm not as over this as I thought!!!!
I agree with all but one of your points and that being the first one. I like the fact that the Browns and Ravens are in the same division. As far as the betrayal. Modell is no longer the owner with the exception of a minute share of the team. Furthermore, there are no players left on the Ravens from that former Browns team. All in all, you and I are on the same page. As to the bitch slap that the NFL gave us... I gues I feel they screwed us in waiting until last minute to name Lerner/Policy as the ownership group, and the fact they gave us jack shit for a free agent pool. Maybe they did it on purpose?? I mean, Modell was respected by all of the other owners, and in fact only 2 voted against the move. Maybe the NFL slapped us in the face as payback for the fuss that we as fans made??? If that is the case, too bad. I'm sorry, but one thing you don't do is f*** with Cleveland, or NE Ohio, and not expect a major backlash! We are a scrappy bunch here in NE Ohio.
I agree with all but one of your points and that being the first one. I like the fact that the Browns and Ravens are in the same division. As far as the betrayal. Modell is no longer the owner with the exception of a minute share of the team. Furthermore, there are no players left on the Ravens from that former Browns team. All in all, you and I are on the same page. As to the bitch slap that the NFL gave us... I gues I feel they screwed us in waiting until last minute to name Lerner/Policy as the ownership group, and the fact they gave us jack shit for a free agent pool. Maybe they did it on purpose?? I mean, Modell was respected by all of the other owners, and in fact only 2 voted against the move.
Hardly. The owners voted for the "move" because it came as a result of the brokered deal that was made between the NFL, the two cities, and Modell. It was their respect for Tagliabue and his efforts to obtain a settlement they had respect for, not Modell. The couple of negative votes were essentially token votes both in support of Cleveland. (one was Ralph Wilson, I believe the other was either Dan Rooney or Al Davis)
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Since I am younger my question to everyone is this: Is the new browns "The Browns" or is the old browns (Ravens) always gonna be the same franchise you connected to in the past?
Predicted Records:2010: 8-82011: 8-82012: 9-72013: 5-112014: 6-10 -
Hardly. The owners voted for the "move" because it came as a result of the brokered deal that was made between the NFL, the two cities, and Modell. It was their respect for Tagliabue and his efforts to obtain a settlement they had respect for, not Modell. The couple of negative votes were essentially token votes both in support of Cleveland. (one was Ralph Wilson, I believe the other was either Dan Rooney or Al Davis)
It was Rooney. The Steelers were pissed about killing the Browns Steelers rivalry. And rightfully so!
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Since I am younger my question to everyone is this: Is the new browns "The Browns" or is the old browns (Ravens) always gonna be the same franchise you connected to in the past?
Since I am younger my question to everyone is this: Is the new browns "The Browns" or is the old browns (Ravens) always gonna be the same franchise you connected to in the past?
The new Browns are the Browns, and the Ravens are the Ravens, period. We kept the name history and colors. Unfortunately the new Browns can't seem to tie to the great past of the Cleveland Browns which was WINNING! I'm hoping that we finally got it right by bringing in Holmgren.
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Since I am younger my question to everyone is this: Is the new browns "The Browns" or is the old browns (Ravens) always gonna be the same franchise you connected to in the past?
Since I am younger my question to everyone is this: Is the new browns "The Browns" or is the old browns (Ravens) always gonna be the same franchise you connected to in the past?
OYY. Come on Man! There is no such thing as new or old Browns. There has NEVER been a change in the franchise.
The Ravens were a new franchise established in 1996. Ownership of that was granted to Modell (who did in fact pay a pretty hefty sum to the other NFL owners for the privilege), plus he did take some personell with him there...front office people mostly and some players....but not the coaching staff.
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Since I am younger my question to everyone is this: Is the new browns "The Browns" or is the old browns (Ravens) always gonna be the same franchise you connected to in the past?
OYY. Come on Man! There is no such thing as new or old Browns. There has NEVER been a change in the franchise.
The Ravens were a new franchise established in 1996. Ownership of that was granted to Modell (who did in fact pay a pretty hefty sum to the other NFL owners for the privilege), plus he did take some personell with him there...front office people mostly and some players....but not the coaching staff.
OYY. Come on Man! There is no such thing as new or old Browns. There has NEVER been a change in the franchise.
The Ravens were a new franchise established in 1996. Ownership of that was granted to Modell (who did in fact pay a pretty hefty sum to the other NFL owners for the privilege), plus he did take some personell with him there...front office people mostly and some players....but not the coaching staff.
That is exactly the way I look at it. And that is the way it is. When Modell shed the Browns name, none of the records associated to the Cleveland Browns are in anyway, shape or form connected or shared with the Baltimore Ravens. All of that is attached to the new regime. As it should be. It's almost like when an owner sells the team.
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I tried to imagine if that happened to the Steelers...
There would be no way I'd ever get over, never forget the agony of loosing a team, nor would I stop harboring hatred to whoever moves the team.
The Rooney's wouldn't do that, the thought is too frightening to even think. It would be as surreal as Mr. Rogers chasing after you with a baseball bat.
One shinning thing would be the immense joy of getting a team back though
YAH!!! -
I tried to imagine if that happened to the Steelers...
There would be no way I'd ever get over, never forget the agony of loosing a team, nor would I stop harboring hatred to whoever moves the team.
The Rooney's wouldn't do that, the thought is too frightening to even think. It would be as surreal as Mr. Rogers chasing after you with a baseball bat.
One shinning thing would be the immense joy of getting a team back though
YAH!!!Go 'Lers said:
I tried to imagine if that happened to the Steelers...There would be no way I'd ever get over, never forget the agony of loosing a team, nor would I stop harboring hatred to whoever moves the team.
The Rooney's wouldn't do that, the thought is too frightening to even think. It would be as surreal as Mr. Rogers chasing after you with a baseball bat.
One shinning thing would be the immense joy of getting a team back though
YAH!!!And trust me we felt that joy here. Just disappointed that 11 years later we're still struggling. I mean, there is progress, but the previous coaching and front offices really screwed up on the drafts IMO! Who would have ever thought that the Browns would have ever moved?! You know, as much as I don't like the Steelers, I wouldn't wish that on you, and like you guys, as a Browns fan I'd be pretty pissed too, because of the rivalry aspect.
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Modell is A-OK in my book. It was fun when he was the owner of the Browns because they were competitive. Cleveland built a new baseball stadium and a basketball arena but did not want to build a football stadium (and this is supposed to be a football town.)
The colts did leave Baltimore for Indy and won a Super Bowl and are successful year after year. The browns left Cleveland AKA the Ravens under Modell and won a Super Bowl and are competitive year after year.
The only team that never became competitive is the Browns.
Cleveland showed Modell the door. What was he supposed to do?
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Since I am younger my question to everyone is this: Is the new browns "The Browns" or is the old browns (Ravens) always gonna be the same franchise you connected to in the past?
OYY. Come on Man! There is no such thing as new or old Browns. There has NEVER been a change in the franchise.
The Ravens were a new franchise established in 1996. Ownership of that was granted to Modell (who did in fact pay a pretty hefty sum to the other NFL owners for the privilege), plus he did take some personell with him there...front office people mostly and some players....but not the coaching staff.
OYY. Come on Man! There is no such thing as new or old Browns. There has NEVER been a change in the franchise.
The Ravens were a new franchise established in 1996. Ownership of that was granted to Modell (who did in fact pay a pretty hefty sum to the other NFL owners for the privilege), plus he did take some personell with him there...front office people mostly and some players....but not the coaching staff.
Ive just heard so many testimonies from fans saying "Yeah this is the Browns but it felt so different before they left. It doesn't feel like the same team."
Predicted Records:2010: 8-82011: 8-82012: 9-72013: 5-112014: 6-10 -
OYY. Come on Man! There is no such thing as new or old Browns. There has NEVER been a change in the franchise.
The Ravens were a new franchise established in 1996. Ownership of that was granted to Modell (who did in fact pay a pretty hefty sum to the other NFL owners for the privilege), plus he did take some personell with him there...front office people mostly and some players....but not the coaching staff.
Ive just heard so many testimonies from fans saying "Yeah this is the Browns but it felt so different before they left. It doesn't feel like the same team."
Ive just heard so many testimonies from fans saying "Yeah this is the Browns but it felt so different before they left. It doesn't feel like the same team."
It doesn't feel like the same team, because of the lack of success.
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