Head-to-Head Hits & New Rule Discussion
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Thank you for teh reply, but you failed to understand teh point.
Football is a dangerous sport. So is driving teh car or taking a walk in teh park.
Football players know that teh game is violent and dangerous and they know teh risks taken.
That is teh real issue.
Regards...
... an'at
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Teh real issue is the fact that the NFL is talking out of both sides of their mouths. Just like Fujita said, they want to fine players for big hits, yet they show the same big hits on every channel in every top play countdown.
Big hits are part of the game, and let's face it....we all love them. Helmet to helmet hits are pretty black and white. There's always going to be a fine on them, and there always should be. But this new rule is basically including intent, and that's not as cut and dry to determine.
Did Harrison look like he intended to take off both Cribbs and MoMass' heads? Yeah. And that's the reason the NFL is fining him.
Did Harrison actually intend to knock these guys (near) unconscious? Yes and no. Hell, he's a defender. That's what they're out there to do. They're taught to put the fear of God in whoever they're playing. But I don't think he was intending to cause them any lasting physical damage.
Intent is hard to determine. This is a contact game, and these hits are commonplace. They're exciting, and they make for good entertainment. Defensive coaches encourage big hits, and any coach loves when his runningback takes it to a would-be tackler. These big hits make the NFL, so it's kind of bullshit for the NFL to take them away.
Yes, Harrison launched himself. Yes, Harrison led with his head. No, Harrison did not arch his neck back and bring his arms on the hit. He basically torpedoed each guy and, to the NFL, that adds up to intent. And for Harrison, intent costs him about $75,000 out of his pocket. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
What the NFL really needs to do is provide better healthcare for the players once they retire. That's the reason they're putting skirts on the players now, so they don't have to pay later.
Teh real issue is the fact that the NFL is talking out of both sides of their mouths. Just like Fujita said, they want to fine players for big hits, yet they show the same big hits on every channel in every top play countdown.
Big hits are part of the game, and let's face it....we all love them. Helmet to helmet hits are pretty black and white. There's always going to be a fine on them, and there always should be. But this new rule is basically including intent, and that's not as cut and dry to determine.
Did Harrison look like he intended to take off both Cribbs and MoMass' heads? Yeah. And that's the reason the NFL is fining him.
Did Harrison actually intend to knock these guys (near) unconscious? Yes and no. Hell, he's a defender. That's what they're out there to do. They're taught to put the fear of God in whoever they're playing. But I don't think he was intending to cause them any lasting physical damage.
Intent is hard to determine. This is a contact game, and these hits are commonplace. They're exciting, and they make for good entertainment. Defensive coaches encourage big hits, and any coach loves when his runningback takes it to a would-be tackler. These big hits make the NFL, so it's kind of bullshit for the NFL to take them away.
Yes, Harrison launched himself. Yes, Harrison led with his head. No, Harrison did not arch his neck back and bring his arms on the hit. He basically torpedoed each guy and, to the NFL, that adds up to intent. And for Harrison, intent costs him about $75,000 out of his pocket. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
What the NFL really needs to do is provide better healthcare for the players once they retire. That's the reason they're putting skirts on the players now, so they don't have to pay later.
1. Harrison did not launch himself.
2. Harrison was actually trying to go low.
3. The receiver went low
4. The ref was standing right there with a clear view of the hit, obviously if Harrison launched himself, he would have drawn the flag.
Want proof? Here you go.
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Is he serious??? He actually thinks he doesn't have to play by the rules?? The penalties for helmet to helmet hits are in place for a reason and they're certainly not new, they're just not inforced strongly enough.
Was watching an ESPN story today on this subject because of how bad these hits were throughout Sunday's games. This is not just some silly rule. These are professional players who have been taught to launch and hit like this. There is no exuse for it and they cannot say they can't help themselves and it isn't true that a player can't change his way of playing. Instaed of launching and hitting helmet to helmet, he is quite capable of turning his head and launching into the sternum instaed of the head and neck area and being just as effective in his hitting. He CAN make that decision instantly and make the right choice instead of risking paralyzing the guy on the recieveing end or himself.
Players like Harrison are not going to take the NFL seriously UNTIL there is an example set. Fineing alone isn't gonna cut it. Someone needs to be fined and suspended or removed from the team or the NFL if need be. Harrison is a repeat offender and now the players will get one free pass then the crap needs to hit the fan. The offending player needs to and is capable of making the choice before he makes his hit and needs to keep in mind, if I do this, I'm gonna be fined, suspended or worse. And IMO, if Harrison doesn't think the rules apply to him, then let him quit or get rid of him before he kills someone. These guys get paid the big bucks to play a game and put their life on the line and there is no room for people who intentionally injure other players although I heard him say he wasnt to hurt the other guys but not injure them. Bull.
Just my amature opinion.
Is he serious??? He actually thinks he doesn't have to play by the rules?? The penalties for helmet to helmet hits are in place for a reason and they're certainly not new, they're just not inforced strongly enough.
Was watching an ESPN story today on this subject because of how bad these hits were throughout Sunday's games. This is not just some silly rule. These are professional players who have been taught to launch and hit like this. There is no exuse for it and they cannot say they can't help themselves and it isn't true that a player can't change his way of playing. Instaed of launching and hitting helmet to helmet, he is quite capable of turning his head and launching into the sternum instaed of the head and neck area and being just as effective in his hitting. He CAN make that decision instantly and make the right choice instead of risking paralyzing the guy on the recieveing end or himself.
Players like Harrison are not going to take the NFL seriously UNTIL there is an example set. Fineing alone isn't gonna cut it. Someone needs to be fined and suspended or removed from the team or the NFL if need be. Harrison is a repeat offender and now the players will get one free pass then the crap needs to hit the fan. The offending player needs to and is capable of making the choice before he makes his hit and needs to keep in mind, if I do this, I'm gonna be fined, suspended or worse. And IMO, if Harrison doesn't think the rules apply to him, then let him quit or get rid of him before he kills someone. These guys get paid the big bucks to play a game and put their life on the line and there is no room for people who intentionally injure other players although I heard him say he wasnt to hurt the other guys but not injure them. Bull.
Just my amature opinion.
You act like two of your better players aren't in full support of Harrison.....
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He made the team playing special teams. Harrison is one of the best form tacklers in the league. His fudamentals are as good as they can get. Don't let his hard hits trick you into thinking his technique isn't there. The problem is form tackles don't knock the ball loose unless you are hitting the ball carrier straight on. If the ball carrier has his back turned you won't even touch the ball attempted a form tackle.
Yeah, but leading with your helmet full bore into a guy that's already being tackled - and almost taking his head off sure will dislodge the ball. And don't give me the BS that Harrison didn't have the time to get his head up, or tackle with his hands- he had the opportunity and went for a deliberate kill shot on Cribbs. BTW, the Commish's office laid it out- rule 12 you can't spear a defenseless player- and that will go for not just wrs. Since Cribbs was already wrapped up and going down, I'd say he was not exactly in a position to protect himself.
Here's the exact quote of the rule- trolls. NFL Rule 12
"Note: Defenseless players in (f) and (g) shall include (i) a player in the act of or just after throwing a pass; (ii) a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass; (iii) a runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped; (iv) a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air; and (v) a player on the ground at the end of a play.
If Harrison wants to keep getting game checks, he had damn better unlearn his headhunting ways. Goodell hath spoken- And to our Steeler trolls- if you think it's such an injustice to your goon, why not help pay his fine.
Yeah, but leading with your helmet full bore into a guy that's already being tackled - and almost taking his head off sure will dislodge the ball. And don't give me the BS that Harrison didn't have the time to get his head up, or tackle with his hands- he had the opportunity and went for a deliberate kill shot on Cribbs. BTW, the Commish's office laid it out- rule 12 you can't spear a defenseless player- and that will go for not just wrs. Since Cribbs was already wrapped up and going down, I'd say he was not exactly in a position to protect himself.
Here's the exact quote of the rule- trolls. NFL Rule 12
"Note: Defenseless players in (f) and (g) shall include (i) a player in the act of or just after throwing a pass; (ii) a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass; (iii) a runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped; (iv) a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air; and (v) a player on the ground at the end of a play.
If Harrison wants to keep getting game checks, he had damn better unlearn his headhunting ways. Goodell hath spoken- And to our Steeler trolls- if you think it's such an injustice to your goon, why not help pay his fine.
True or False. Cribbs lowered his head as he ran through the hole.
True or False. The league said this hit was 100% clean from the start. It was his hit on MoMass that was in question
"Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil" - Niccolo Machiavelli "Expectation is the root of all heartache." - William Shakespeare "In time we hate that which we often fear. " - William Shakespeare "I DO ROIDS ... and GIVE HEAD" - ATENEARS http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16312 http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06166/698372-66.stm Friday said, "posters on Internet message boards hide behind their keyboards and write things they would never have the courage to say aloud in public. He said posters who write tasteless messages use football and the rivalries between teams as a way of getting out their aggression in a non-violent manner." Predicted 2010 Steelers record from this board: 7-9; 6-10; 8-8; 9-7; 10-6 -
Can we stop complaining about hard hits! We have been an embarassement because of losing for years, and now because our fan base is crying about hard hits in professional football.
I want Ward to keep hitting in the secondary. We have a hitter now, lets let him keep this opportunity.
This new rule is going to be referred to as the "Browns Rule" that removed the ability of defensive player to play with intensity and intimidation.
STOP THIS DAMN COMPLAINING!
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HAHAHAHAHA. This made my night hands down.
Browns 1, Steelers 0.
Don't try to argue back because there is no point now.
We lost the game................which is more important?
We lost the game................which is more important?
Wow - a smart Browns fan - I cant believe it.
Regarding the fines - James Harrison and Dunta Robinson hits were clean hits. They were playing agressive and against a moving player with the ball - unacceptable politically correct Cleveland bed wetting politics happening with both of those fines.
The Merriweather hit was a terrible head hunting type of hit - he purposely led with his helmet in order to hit Heap in the head - that should have been the only fineable.
Now back to this smart Browns fan - he is correct - YOU LOSERS are laughing and you dont even realize that you are butt of the jokes - as I have said before - YOU ARE F. U. C. K. ING LOSERS! LOL!
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Homotron said:
Harrison is obviously kidding. Bunch of mouth breathing Retards on this message board. He hardly talks but when he's does it's usually tongue and cheek. You'd know this if you paid attention to his interviews.I did pay attention to his interview after the Browns game- yup Harrison sounds like a mouth breathing Retard paid assassin alright.
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LOOK MOM, NO HANDS!
Hey there CUMINEARS - do you know what I see here? I see a Jack Lambert type of football player (You remember Jack Lambert - dont you DICKINEARS? He was the guy in your back yard who grew up a Browns fan but was not drafted by the Browns - just like Big Bad Ben! LOL!) - anyways I see a Jack Lambert type of player who just beat the total S. H. I. T. out of your team and left two piles of steaming S. H. I. T. on the field for your trainers to scrape off the field - thats worth 75 Grand anyday! I LOVE IT!
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@rocky20 said:
PS - you are also F. U. C. K. ing P. U. S. S. ies because you have a message board that will not allow swearing.....F. U. C. K. you S. H. I. T. inears!
Somebody is a little cranky today.
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Per Adam Schefter Twitter: Reported on NFL Live - James Harrison fined $75,000 and as repeat offender.
Per Adam Schefter Twitter: Reported on NFL Live - James Harrison fined $75,000 and as repeat offender.
The 75 grand fine was a nice jester but it's still pocket change to these mega buck players. The best fine will be supension. When they are not out there playing their whole team goes down one way or another. So send the fine money to charity and send their azz home.
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You know whats funny? When the league fines a man 75K for making a hit on a player they deem defenseless and then try to make more money by selling a picture of that said hit! Hypocrisy at its finest.....
http://www.replayphotos.com/nflphotostore/...quoi_321187.cfm
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Here is two more still frames:
Massaquoi's head is down because he's looking at the ball which was below his waist. Harrison's isn't "WRAPPING-UP" he is spearing and everyone breathing soul outside Pittsburgh knows that the NFL installed this rule this season and is making a big deal about hitting a defenseless QB or WR.
Sure Harrison may have started out low, but that was only so he could get a better trust upward at Monass' head. With arms flailing upward with a forearm shiver. that was uncalled for, when he could have easily wrapped up and tackled the ball. He is hardly trying to dislodge the ball, he is trying to injury.
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In the above pictures, if you really wanted to dislodge the ball, a downward hit on the ball and through the receiver's trunk and legs would have been just as or more effective.
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Harrison had a choice. He could-of/should-of went through the ball, which would have been a downward hit (orange arrow). Instead he chose to throw a forearm shiver upward in the direction of Massaquoi's head (gold arrow). He deserved to be fined. I played defensive back and I've layed my hat on plenty of balls, it was just as much of a craft as taking someones head off. Either Harrison, Ward and others learn the difference or retire from this great game.
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Harrison had a choice. He could-of/should-of went through the ball, which would have been a downward hit (orange arrow). Instead he chose to throw a forearm shiver upward in the direction of Massaquoi's head (gold arrow). He deserved to be fined. I played defensive back and I've layed my hat on plenty of balls, it was just as much of a craft as taking someones head off. Either Harrison, Ward and others learn the difference or retire from this great game.
Harrison had a choice. He could-of/should-of went through the ball, which would have been a downward hit (orange arrow). Instead he chose to throw a forearm shiver upward in the direction of Massaquoi's head (gold arrow). He deserved to be fined. I played defensive back and I've layed my hat on plenty of balls, it was just as much of a craft as taking someones head off. Either Harrison, Ward and others learn the difference or retire from this great game.
BS - now I know you never played a down - he would have to be playing on his knees. Bad argument. You only wish you had this guy on your team.
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All of those opposed to the fine of 75k, I have a question for you.
Can Harrison make an open field tackle?
I dont think he knows how to tackle and his playing days are going to be numbered unless he changes his technique.
We just might start seeing a better game acrossed the board with this firm stand on cheapshots from the league.
This is supposed to be a sport of professional athletes, and some of these goones have made bank on just being strong and not for being good football players.
So you can continue bitchin and whining, but in the end we will see better played defenses acrossed the board.
All of those opposed to the fine of 75k, I have a question for you.
Can Harrison make an open field tackle?
I dont think he knows how to tackle and his playing days are going to be numbered unless he changes his technique.
We just might start seeing a better game acrossed the board with this firm stand on cheapshots from the league.
This is supposed to be a sport of professional athletes, and some of these goones have made bank on just being strong and not for being good football players.
So you can continue bitchin and whining, but in the end we will see better played defenses acrossed the board.
Moronic post. Harrison makes a ton of nice solid open field tackles in the running game, go ask Chris Johnson. Anyone who has ever played defense has been coached to try and separate a receiver from the ball. You don't do that with a wrap up tackle, you do it with a hit. The fact of the matter remains, if Massengil doesnt bobble the ball and duck to grab it, Harrison hits him square in the chest and nobody says a word about it. Football is a collision sport, and if you fools dont like it watch golf on Sundays.
And if you haven't noticed, the NFL is now profitting from this hit by selling pictures of it in their store. You can buy a framed 8x10 for your collection for only $159.99
I got two!
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Harrison had a choice. He could-of/should-of went through the ball, which would have been a downward hit (orange arrow). Instead he chose to throw a forearm shiver upward in the direction of Massaquoi's head (gold arrow). He deserved to be fined. I played defensive back and I've layed my hat on plenty of balls, it was just as much of a craft as taking someones head off. Either Harrison, Ward and others learn the difference or retire from this great game.
BS - now I know you never played a down - he would have to be playing on his knees. Bad argument. You only wish you had this guy on your team.
BS - now I know you never played a down - he would have to be playing on his knees. Bad argument. You only wish you had this guy on your team.
It is pretty obvious that you never played football. We were taught to aim for the belly-button because the trunk doesn't move and it zero's in on man. When you are trying to dislodge the ball, you put your shoulder or helmet on the ball. Harrison did none of this, he weided his arms upward at the head. He sucks at tackling.
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I know I may get a lot of flack for this comment but, IT'S FOOTBALL!
Big hits are part of the game. Players play the game knowing that big hits and the possibility of injury (including death) can occur as a consequence to violence/speed of the game. They sign the waivers and they are paid highly for the risks they take.
Harrison got his fine, yes he should have been flagged too, but that is the Referee's fault.
All this crying and whining doesn't help, it's extremely difficult to judge intent. This why there are rules. Blame the officials too. If the Refs do their job, the habitual offenders will not be playing in the league.
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These hits are not the fault of the QB.
McCoy's throws are perfect if it's man - but will generate the results we experienced if thrown into a zone. However, the same throws happen every Sunday - by every quarterback who's not Manning, Brees, or some other Pro Bowl starter.
ESPN had a panel discussion yesterday that included Dilfer and Young, 2 QB's who have won the Super Bowl. Interestingly, both agreed that the complexity of man/zone combination defenses is a big factor in this.. neither of them faced these types of defenses, and both actually said that they wouldn't want to play against the modern defenses. Hiding coverage will generate these results.
Bottom line: Broad simplistic generalizations ( "It's just football!" ) simply do not apply. Yes, Mass is paid to take these risks.. but that in no way makes these hits appropriate. I think these hits are roughly comparable to the DL head-slap of the OL helmet when executing a pass rush.
To be perfectly clear: Intent DOES NOT MATTER. I doubt Harrison intended to do anything evil, just like I doubt Robinson intended to concuss Jackson. I doubt Rothlisberger intended to be a rapist. However, people are judged based on their actions.
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