3-4 Defense Examined

WPB Dawg Fan

@shepwrite said:
Corey Williams is a dead solid perfect fit for 3-4 DE... a 4-3 DT with some height and an ability to get to the QB. He's the prototype, in fact. He just got dinged, that's all.
We may or may not need a new starting DE if we stay in the 3-4. Robaire Smith returns and Shaun Smith stays for the rotation. Melila Purcell might be ready to contribute, as someone at OBR suggested. And Chris Canty would be a fantastic f/a pickup.

I think Curry is the pick if we go to a 4-3, which I'm hearing more and more these days. It's tough to find his fit in the 3-4. If we stay 3-4, I say the pick is Maualuga.

Shep...you have this warped image of a 3-4 DE. As I have stated, and Aloysius has stated, and this column has stated...the PROTOTYPICAL DE in a 3-4 is 285-310 lbs. Corey Williams is TOO BIG! He MAY get it, but he is a project right now....and there is no guarantee he will ever adapt. Sure, the injury played a part...but he is NOT the prototype.

Look around the league, I am not going to do it for you again, we are the ONLY 3-4 team without at least 1 starting DE at or below 300lbs. THE ONLY ONE!!!

R.Smith is not young for a DE...and he is at 310 and a run stuffer. That means the guy opposite should be our quick-twitch guy that gets pressure on the QB and has better lateral movement. We either have to replace Smith or Williams to get that speed. It shows most of all on outside runs...where our DE's don't have the lateral movement to keep the OL off of our OLB's.

All we have is a bunch of wide bodies on the DL without a single TRUE 3-4 DE in the bunch (R.Smith maybe).

? Aloysius

@shepwrite said:
I think Curry is the pick if we go to a 4-3, which I'm hearing more and more these days. It's tough to find his fit in the 3-4. If we stay 3-4, I say the pick is Maualuga.

Shep, I think you need to add this to your list of wrongs.

Seriously, I don't get why Curry isn't a good scheme fit for the 3-4. For instance, check out what PFW's Nolan Nawrocki has to say about him:

Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
6-1 3/4, 250, 4.61

A thickly built, strong, physical, hard-hitting ’backer with the size, instincts and overall athletic ability to line up at any position in a 3-4 or a 4-3 front. Curry’s value in large part stems from his versatility, as few linebackers possess the skill set to be effective at any position in either system. Might not have the overall length desired in a rush linebacker but has been extremely productive playing over the tight end, and his strength at the point of attack and ability to shed blockers is rare. With knuckle-breaking hand strength, he ragdolls blockers and plays a big man’s game with power. The most complete ’backer to come out in a long time, Curry has few deficiencies in his game and easily could fit into the top five. Scouts love his physical skill set.

I can get the argument that playing 3-4 ILB would hide some of the deficiencies in Maualuga's game, thereby making him a better choice (I don't agree, obviously). But I find it hard to understand why Curry can't play 3-4 ILB.

? Aloysius

@wpb-dawg-fan said:
As I have stated, and Aloysius has stated, and this column has stated...the PROTOTYPICAL DE in a 3-4 is 285-310 lbs.

I'm not sure that I said that, though it seems right. I'll just make a few points:

Romeo like his DE's to be a little more rotund than other 3-4 guys do. Normally, that means sacrificing speed for size.
Corey Williams is an exception to the rule. Though 320 lbs., he's fairly athletic & quick. A lot of his sacks in Green Bay came on speed moves, and he was quick enough to line up occasionally at DE on their even front.
The problem, as I see it, is that Corey's best feature is his speed, and it's diminished when the guy plays too much. To me, he'd be more valuable as a rotational guy who could come in and shoot gaps, not hold up blockers.
That's why I think switching to a one gap 3-4, along with adding another DE (Canty? C.J. Mosley?) makes a lot of sense. Let Corey do what he's best at, and make sure he's fresh enough to get to the QB

JewDago

though not exhaustive, madden ratings can be useful to compare players, especially their pure physical attributes. i know it's only a video game, but it's a tool that we have at our disposal nonetheless.

compared to richard seymour, here's how corey williams stacks up:

RS: SPD: 71 ACC: 80 STR: 92 AGI: 70 AWR: 88

CW: SPD: 70 ACC: 88 STR: 86 AGI: 65 AWR: 74

their speed is equal while williams supposedly has better short-area speed. seymour's a bit stronger and more agile, but that's to be expected. overall, aside from seymour's knowledge of the game, they're similar players.

i don't see how williams doesn't fit well as a 3-4 DE.

and i agree he'd be better in a one-gap scheme and on passing downs, but we don't have enough guys to play him only in passing situations. we have to work with what we've got right now.

GRAVY_insane

I'd be happy with Curry or Rey. They would bring much needed attitude and playmaking ability that this D needs.

I would prefer Curry based on his versatility and ability to be more of a "chess" piece for a stong D-Coordinator.

I really hope whoever is the GM this offseason picks the right guy for whatever sceme we will be running next season!

? Aloysius

@shepwrite said:
Very funny, Alo!
Strangely, I read something on Curry this morning that made me think I might be off base as far as the 3-4. I didn't realize he was 250+ pounds, for one thing.

Scout.com's Chris Steuber's just did an interesting interview with Curry. In it, Curry says that he sees himself "as a Julius Peppers at the SAM linebacker. If you put one man on me, they’re not going to be able to block me."

It's worth reading the whole thing, though I can't resist quoting this part:

CS: Do you have film sessions with the same scouts from teams that regularly attend games or has it been multiple scouts from numerous teams?
Curry: It’s been multiple scouts. I’ve seen scouts from the Lions, Falcons, Dolphins, Patriots and Jaguars; they sent two or three scouts at a time. I’ve met with almost every team and like I said, a few teams have sent two or three scouts.

Man, I wish he'd mentioned the Browns. And I sincerely hope that the Jags aren't truly considering taking Curry with their 1st Round pick, which very easily could be before ours.

That would suck.

DieselPusher

Man, I wish he'd mentioned the Browns. And I sincerely hope that the Jags aren't truly considering taking Curry with their 1st Round pick, which very easily could be before ours.

That would suck

Remember, when Savage sees who he really wants, he doesn't make a big scouting prescence. He did nothing for Edwards and very little for Thomas. He may know he wants Curry and if he's available, otherwise he'll scout his options/second choices

Riffer X

@dieselpusher said:
Man, I wish he'd mentioned the Browns. And I sincerely hope that the Jags aren't truly considering taking Curry with their 1st Round pick, which very easily could be before ours.
That would suck

Remember, when Savage sees who he really wants, he doesn't make a big scouting prescence. He did nothing for Edwards and very little for Thomas. He may know he wants Curry and if he's available, otherwise he'll scout his options/second choices

Yeah, Phillip talks up guys he doesn't want to touch with a ten foot pole (Jafaticus Russell) and doesn't say a word about guys he wants (Thomas, Edwards, Queen to an extent and even Rogers as an FA).

? Aloysius

Good point, Diesel & Riff.

And I'm hoping that Phil wasn't seriously interested in Russell. IIRC, Chris Mortensen reported the day of the draft that Phil called Crazy Al about a possible trade-up, but Al's insane demands (our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Round picks + Kamerion Wimbley) were too steep.

Geech

@shepwrite said:
Very funny, Alo!
Strangely, I read something on Curry this morning that made me think I might be off base as far as the 3-4. I didn't realize he was 250+ pounds, for one thing.

Guys I like: Curry, Rey, Orakpo, and Beanie.

FYI, Mike Mayock talks about Curry's "scheme versatility" in the video on this page of his top 20 senior prospects. He lists Curry as the #1 overall player.

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story?id=090...mp;confirm=true

-Al

EDIT: BTW, great find on what to look for in 3-4 players, John.

YtownBrownsBacker

Other then a few OTs, he doesn't have a skilled offensive player in his top 20. Something wrong with that. I guess it isn't set because the under clasmen haven't declared yet, but still, that's a little too one sided.

JewDago

he certainly seems to be rising faster than other prospects, at least on this board.

? Aloysius

@geech said:
FYI, Mike Mayock talks about Curry's "scheme versatility" in the video on this page of his top 20 senior prospects. He lists Curry as the #1 overall player.
http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story?id=090...mp;confirm=true

Thanks for linking to that, Al. The Mayock video is really interesting. Calling a prospect "the ultimate package" seems like pretty high praise.

We need Tom Tupa

Aloysius said:
Thanks for linking to that, Al. The Mayock video is really interesting. Calling a prospect "the ultimate package" seems like pretty high praise.

Scott Wright ranks him #1 (among seniors) as well:

http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Rankings.php

Flugel

Aloysius said:
Thanks for linking to that, Al. The Mayock video is really interesting. Calling a prospect "the ultimate package" seems like pretty high praise.

When you're talking about LBer prospects - you HAVE to like the versatile guys that offer enough flexibility to play in a 3-4 or a 4-3. A big reason for that is if you look at the NE Patriots they never switched to a 3-4 because they PREFERRED the scheme when they first went to it. The season they first made the switch they had to because of all the unexpected injuries to their dline at the time. Starters were injured on and off and Klecko, their rotation guy, got injured as well so they did a msterful job at problem solving their way into a very fortunate fate with the alignment change.

Curry looks like he can play in any scheme AND like he can play inside or outside. Watching those highlights you treated us to in the other thread Aloy - I saw GREAT first step instincts. The kind that prevent him from needing to tell the coach he got blocked or why he wasn't back in coverage. He's already showing the know-how to strip the ball from the ballcarrier pre-draft. This is just my opinion so I'm sure others won't agree but the LESS prerequisites you need to teach kids - the better their chances of success are at the next level.

While I think players can ALWAYS learn, I just don't think a Ray Lewis or Lawrence Taylor needed to be invented by a Coach. Marvin Lewis didn't MAKE Ray Lewis. Throw in your favorite legend and notice your great ones came blessed with instincts that seperated them from ordinary. I'm not saying coaching isn't important - I'm just saying you want the guys where you only need to do some fine tuning and they're flexible enough for any system. You always hear Ray Lewis plays fast and ironically a disappointing 40 time had him down near the 26th or 27th pick of round 1. That said, this is one guy you throw away the 40 yard dash significance in lieu of how fast he shows up frequently on film. If you got a scout that knows what the hell he's doing - he can only see "plays fast" on film. That's what the adorable highlights of Curry show us too. I don't care what he runs his forty in after watching the footage of him.

- Tom F. (I always have queer-eye for LBers and RBs)

Riffer X

I'm starting to lean toward Wells.

It goes against all common sense to look at a back with an iffy injury history when we are so desperate to shore up this defense, but I've seen Lewis leave yards all over the field this year. Wells has great cutback ability and vision, which makes him a breakaway threat at any time. He also uses stiff arms with either hand that are lethal and is damn shifty for a guy his size.

To me, he satisfies two needs at back. One, he is the size needed in this division and for the winter months, and two, he still provides breakaway ability that this team lacks. Since RAC 'n ROLLS thinks Harrison will steal his M and M's stash if he plays him, we are still iffy on his status. I think both Harrison and Wells give us a pretty dynamic backfield as long as we get a coach in here that knows how to use them properly.

Sorry, I hate to think all pretty and prima donna-ish with the needs we have on defense ie. ILB (someone to pair with Jackson), OLB (someone who can get to the QB), DE (someone more athletic than Smith) or stud safety, but Queen and a dynamic and big back can really change the whole dynamic of this offense (Ryan/Turner). I think it makes the biggest impact, definitely more so than taking a stab at another Wimbley or something. Look what Gholston is doing this year, I'd rather see someone who can come in and seriously impact the team from the get go.

We could still keep Lewis and maybe Wright also, which gives insurance if Wells' injury history crops up.

I will say this, I ran into a guy at the gas station last year and we started rapping about the Buckeyes. When the subject of Wells came up, he told me he coached Wells in pee wees and on JV's. I don't know how much stock to put into this guy, but he certainly didn't seem to need to lie to impress me or anything. He said Wells has chronically bad ankles that are genetic. Basically, his tendons and ligaments aren't as strong as they should be and it runs in his family. However, this was last year when he was gimpy all season with an ankle problem, so this guy could literally be a crazy guy trying to act like he's an insider or something. Wells' issues this year had nothing to do with the ankles, it was just the freak toe thing. He also fought wrist issues in the past two seasons, but I don't envision him being as injury prone as people say. He's basically played through everything outside of the toe thing this year, so perhaps this says something about his toughness more than his being injury prone.

Even if he turns out to be a guy who only gives you 12 games a year, those 12 games he can be a huge impact. Good teams can function without their primary back, but that primary back can be massive in the games he does play.

JewDago

wells is a terrible idea with what we need on defense. if we can get curry, it really seems like that's what we should do. if we can't, there are other LB prospects that would benefit us more than taking wells (maualuga, cushing) or a safety in mays who hits like a linebacker. polamolu is the face of pittsburgh's D.

we're not talking about rushing the passer, here. we're talking about stopping the run and hitting people. it's a lot easier to project MLBs than it is pass rushers.

it's just easier to find impact RBs in later rounds than it is to find a ready-to-play LB. guys can be coached into form, but late-round RBs can make more of an impact as rookies than LBs can unless you've got a good scheme, which we don't know that we will.

while i agree that we need to upgrade our RB corps, it just makes more sense to go after a player who can impact the game more. a RB really only makes a difference when he's got the ball in his hands, which can happen, in the best-case scenario, thirty times a game.

a LB has a chance to impact the game on every play he's in.

Riffer X

@jewdago said:
wells is a terrible idea with what we need on defense. if we can get curry, it really seems like that's what we should do. if we can't, there are other LB prospects that would benefit us more than taking wells (maualuga, cushing) or a safety in mays who hits like a linebacker. polamolu is the face of pittsburgh's D.
we're not talking about rushing the passer, here. we're talking about stopping the run and hitting people. it's a lot easier to project MLBs than it is pass rushers.

it's just easier to find impact RBs in later rounds than it is to find a ready-to-play LB. guys can be coached into form, but late-round RBs can make more of an impact as rookies than LBs can unless you've got a good scheme, which we don't know that we will.

while i agree that we need to upgrade our RB corps, it just makes more sense to go after a player who can impact the game more. a RB really only makes a difference when he's got the ball in his hands, which can happen, in the best-case scenario, thirty times a game.

a LB has a chance to impact the game on every play he's in.

Those are good points Jew, but I think Wells is a dynamic back given his whole package. Just as you can find backs in round two or three, I don't believe you can get what Wells brings to the table.

I think you can score with a backer in round two or three.

Again, I'm looking at immediate impact here, and a guy like Wells can affect this team dramatically from the get go more than a ILB can IMO.

That being said, I'll probably change my mind twenty times before the draft.

lemosley01

@riffer-x said:
I will say this, I ran into a guy at the gas station last year and we started rapping about the Buckeyes. When the subject of Wells came up, he told me he coached Wells in pee wees and on JV's. I don't know how much stock to put into this guy, but he certainly didn't seem to need to lie to impress me or anything. He said Wells has chronically bad ankles that are genetic. Basically, his tendons and ligaments aren't as strong as they should be and it runs in his family. However, this was last year when he was gimpy all season with an ankle problem, so this guy could literally be a crazy guy trying to act like he's an insider or something. Wells' issues this year had nothing to do with the ankles, it was just the freak toe thing. He also fought wrist issues in the past two seasons, but I don't envision him being as injury prone as people say. He's basically played through everything outside of the toe thing this year, so perhaps this says something about his toughness more than his being injury prone.

I call BS - how would this guy know that Wells ankle problems (if any) are 'genetic'.

I find it hard to believe the guy has made it this far without a pretty consistent injury history at the college level. I'm not saying he definitely doesn't have a problem, but how would a peewee/JV coach know anything about his genetics?

However, I think RB is below the need for LB/DL and maybe even wide receiver. If all of our favorit Defensive guys are off the board at that point (highly doubtful), I'd try and dump the pick on someone else. Maybe get two firsts out of the next draft when we have a year under the new coach and no who really can't perform and who was just a victim of scheme/poor coaching.

As far as CB's go, I don't think drafting one in the first round is the right answer - who's going to teach him on the field? I'd say look for an experienced CB in free agency.

JewDago

@ riffer: i agree that you can get a LB in two or three, just not one that's the quality that curry, maualuga, spikes or cushing are. the RBs that we'd get later maybe wouldn't be as complete as wells, but i'm not a believer that RBs need to be complete players to succeed. guys like purple jesus and LdT (before he broke down) are great, but they only come along about every five years or so, and i don't think that wells is that kind of back.

as far as a RB vs LB having more immediate impact, i think that's a philosophical difference. looking at the vikings, they were already a strong running team when they got purple jesus, and he put them over the top and transformed them into a great running team. had he gone to a bad running team, i don't think he'd have the success he does.

i will admit that we'd be a much better running team with a better RB.

however, if you look at what patrick willis did for san francisco, his presence alone changed that defense. he makes plays all over the field and changes games.