Holmgren's Biggest Mistake
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WR was/is a need, but considering that the browns drafted 2 WRs in the 2nd rd in the 09 draft combined with the acquisition of ben watson this past offseason, i think that holmgren made the right decision to hold-off one more year. solidifying the defense has made us instantly competitive and has me the most excited about our future. tj ward might be DROY and nobody is talking about it because everyone would rather focus on our shortcomings.
WR was/is a need, but considering that the browns drafted 2 WRs in the 2nd rd in the 09 draft combined with the acquisition of ben watson this past offseason, i think that holmgren made the right decision to hold-off one more year. solidifying the defense has made us instantly competitive and has me the most excited about our future. tj ward might be DROY and nobody is talking about it because everyone would rather focus on our shortcomings.
There have been many threads on TJ on this board all except one (about a hit to the head) paid homage to his talent and play making ability. Great draft selection and what a fantastic addition to the team. I really think we do a great job on this board of balancing the good and the bad. I have discussed the improvement in our LB's time and time again. If there is a group not getting enough love, I would start there. Holmgren/Ekert have done a great job overall. It's for that reason that it baffles me as to why they did not address WR in free agency. It was an obvious and everyone knew it. It wasn't a draft need, it was a FA need and we had the money to pick up one solid WR in a group of about a dozen that were available. Mass was showing progress. But there was no indication that cribbs or Rob could fill the need.
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WR was/is a need, but considering that the browns drafted 2 WRs in the 2nd rd in the 09 draft combined with the acquisition of ben watson this past offseason, i think that holmgren made the right decision to hold-off one more year. solidifying the defense has made us instantly competitive and has me the most excited about our future. tj ward might be DROY and nobody is talking about it because everyone would rather focus on our shortcomings.
WR was/is a need, but considering that the browns drafted 2 WRs in the 2nd rd in the 09 draft combined with the acquisition of ben watson this past offseason, i think that holmgren made the right decision to hold-off one more year. solidifying the defense has made us instantly competitive and has me the most excited about our future. tj ward might be DROY and nobody is talking about it because everyone would rather focus on our shortcomings.
Yeah I agree about WR, can't fix everything in one year- and Holmgren said as much. Guys like Boldin and TO weren't going to come to Cleveland- they wanted to win, and win NOW.
And has been said, TO is a talent- so is Randy Moss for that matter- but look at their track record of being clubhouse cancer. We just got rid of a couple in Bray-Bray and KWII, so RIGHT ON!!! Let's bring in another one to take their place.
Oh, and I think there may be a guy by the name of Julio Jones sitting there in the first round when the Browns draft next year.
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Chiefs also had a lot of their team in place.
Glenn Dorsey was hurt
Tambi Hali
Brandan Albert
Brandon Flowers
Jamaal Charles
Matt Cassell
Dwayne Bowe
Derrick Johnson
Brandon Carr
Tyson Jackson
Mike Vrabel
Not real sure who they added all in FA other than Thomas Jones, and their rookies are playing extremely well right now
Dexter McCluster
Eric Berry
Tony Moeaki
Javier Arenas
Verran Tucker even had a big receiving day
They had a very solid nucleus in place, and had been injury-ridden last year I dont think they added an extremely lot through FA, they just had a very solid draft and the players that worked out were at positions of need.
Chiefs also had a lot of their team in place.
Glenn Dorsey was hurt
Tambi Hali
Brandan Albert
Brandon Flowers
Jamaal Charles
Matt Cassell
Dwayne Bowe
Derrick Johnson
Brandon Carr
Tyson Jackson
Mike Vrabel
Not real sure who they added all in FA other than Thomas Jones, and their rookies are playing extremely well right now
Dexter McCluster
Eric Berry
Tony Moeaki
Javier Arenas
Verran Tucker even had a big receiving day
They had a very solid nucleus in place, and had been injury-ridden last year I dont think they added an extremely lot through FA, they just had a very solid draft and the players that worked out were at positions of need.
Eric Berrrrrrrrry, Eric Berry! Eric Berrrrrrrrry, Eric Berry!
sorry bit i'm still drunk from the osu vs michigan game.
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On Berry, the talk in KC (where I used to live) is he makes a lot of plays... and blows a lot of coverage.
Here's the update on the Browns pick in Walter's Draft... which would make me really happy. And a good point on McCoy:
7. Cleveland Browns: A.J. Green, WR, Georgia
Colt McCoy is the real deal. He's also a perfect as example of why the NFL Draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No one liked McCoy - not Kiper, not McShay, not Mayock, not any draftnik surfing the Web. Not even Mike Holmgren was too high on him; he passed on him twice in Rounds 2-3, and finally picked him when he realized that Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace were his only quarterbacks.
But with McCoy entrenched as the franchise quarterback, the Browns need to provide him with a blue-chip weapon. A.J. Green, who could easily be picked in the top three depending on which teams are drafting up there, is the second-best receiver prospect since Randy Moss (Calvin Johnson).
Pick change; previously Marcell Dareus, DE/DT
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like someone said earlier, you cant fix everything in one year. Signing a big vet with big money we are still a ways away from being a playoff team I dont think really helps our team at this point for the long term. It is our number one weakness for sure though, and one that will certaintly be addressed in the offseason.
Think of it like Colt is swinging his baseball bat in the on deck circle with a donut weighing it down. When we get a WR threat next year it will be that much easier for him to "swing the bat" (great metaphor, i know..)
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Competative................thats the key word !...and thats what we are . Competative...... If your team is playing the Cleveland Browns this sunday.....your gonna get a game!!!!!
that is all Browns fans want to hear!
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On Berry, the talk in KC (where I used to live) is he makes a lot of plays... and blows a lot of coverage.
Here's the update on the Browns pick in Walter's Draft... which would make me really happy. And a good point on McCoy:
7. Cleveland Browns: A.J. Green, WR, Georgia
Colt McCoy is the real deal. He's also a perfect as example of why the NFL Draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No one liked McCoy - not Kiper, not McShay, not Mayock, not any draftnik surfing the Web. Not even Mike Holmgren was too high on him; he passed on him twice in Rounds 2-3, and finally picked him when he realized that Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace were his only quarterbacks.
But with McCoy entrenched as the franchise quarterback, the Browns need to provide him with a blue-chip weapon. A.J. Green, who could easily be picked in the top three depending on which teams are drafting up there, is the second-best receiver prospect since Randy Moss (Calvin Johnson).
Pick change; previously Marcell Dareus, DE/DT
On Berry, the talk in KC (where I used to live) is he makes a lot of plays... and blows a lot of coverage.
Here's the update on the Browns pick in Walter's Draft... which would make me really happy. And a good point on McCoy:
7. Cleveland Browns: A.J. Green, WR, Georgia
Colt McCoy is the real deal. He's also a perfect as example of why the NFL Draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No one liked McCoy - not Kiper, not McShay, not Mayock, not any draftnik surfing the Web. Not even Mike Holmgren was too high on him; he passed on him twice in Rounds 2-3, and finally picked him when he realized that Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace were his only quarterbacks.
But with McCoy entrenched as the franchise quarterback, the Browns need to provide him with a blue-chip weapon. A.J. Green, who could easily be picked in the top three depending on which teams are drafting up there, is the second-best receiver prospect since Randy Moss (Calvin Johnson).
Pick change; previously Marcell Dareus, DE/DT
holgrem wanted him plenty but heckert didnt. holgrem was actually made when colt hadnt been picked to that point.
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Did you ever think that they knew they were week at WR, but waited for this years loaded WR class.....
Heckett draft class in Philly is no joke
Jackson
Mcclain
Mccoy
Cobb
If we get somewhere close to this, I will be very happy
Please do not forget that our defense is playing way over there heads because of the sceames that Ryan puts together, fact our front 7 is old, no pass rush DE and if Ryan leaves for a HC job we are Fu$%ed....
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Actualy boldin wanted to get paid. We showed no interest so I thinks its unfair to say he wouldnt have come here...
Who doesn't want to win now? The bottom line is always about showing me the money!
Actualy boldin wanted to get paid. We showed no interest so I thinks its unfair to say he wouldnt have come here...
Who doesn't want to win now? The bottom line is always about showing me the money!
This isn't all about "win now". It's about building the foundation to not only win, but win consistently for years to come. Da Bungles thought they could "win now" by bringing in TO- whoops, wrong. One good thing about this Bungle bungle- that's one team drafting ahead of us who won't be taking a wr.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.
The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.
Mike
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.
The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.
Mike
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.
The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.
Mike
Maybe so. According to your theory then, this will be a great draft and FA year for us, and (if we are competitive now) we should be a playoff team next year. So, as they say, let's see. I don't expect to see any position of glaring weakness next year. So we need to address or continue to address WR, the D-Line, The D-secondary, and at least one young LB.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.
The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.
Mike
Maybe so. According to your theory then, this will be a great draft and FA year for us, and (if we are competitive now) we should be a playoff team next year. So, as they say, let's see. I don't expect to see any position of glaring weakness next year. So we need to address or continue to address WR, the D-Line, The D-secondary, and at least one young LB.
Maybe so. According to your theory then, this will be a great draft and FA year for us, and (if we are competitive now) we should be a playoff team next year. So, as they say, let's see. I don't expect to see any position of glaring weakness next year. So we need to address or continue to address WR, the D-Line, The D-secondary, and at least one young LB.
I didn't predict that this next draft & free agency period would be "great". It's always a crap shoot. I believe that, due to our level of play & improvement, that we WILL be positioned somewhat better for free agency. My "theory" was simply that a star free agent is not usually eager to sign with a "cellar dweller" & as we improve, our opportunities to sign top tier free agents will increase.
Mike
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Zombo said:
This has turned into a good thread.When the Browns didn't go after a free agent wideout I turned my disappointment into optimism that they had supreme faith in MoMass and that Robo was going to have a breakout year. So much for that thinking.
I think the thing with WRs is, you have to just keep drafting them.
We spent a #3 overall on Braylon and he only really gave us one great season, the rest was very disappointing. On the other hand the Saints tossed out a #7 on Marques Colston and he is the #1 receiver on a SB winning team.
I think MoMass is going to get better moving forward, and Evan Moore will become sort of a Dave Logan type- taking advantage of size mismatches on quicker corners. With Colt's accuracy a guy like that cam become invaluable. That leaves us still needing a true #1 guy though, and I hate to tell skippy, but it's not Charlton Mitchell. If the Jones kid from Bama is there when we draft that would be cool, I don't know what the veteran free agent market is going to look like ... but I would just keep drafting two Wrs a year until we have three we really like.
Zombo
Funny you compare Dave Logan & Evan Moore....so do I. Logan was an absolute favorite of mine, & I also believe Moore could fill that type role.
Mike
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Shoulda woulda coulda.....
We have youth at wr that hasn't panned out....u don't expect them to regress. Its quite easy to sit behind your screen and make these claims halfway thru the season, but we all....including the fo....expected more from our wr corps.
I'm just amused that despite how far we've come in year 2 of a rebuild....its still not enough for most people. Would wins be nice? Absolutely.....but I'm thoroughly enjoying being competitive even if we lose. Ye who never makes a mistake can cast the first stone to call out this team.....cause ur so unrealistic in ur expectations that you set yourself up for disappointment
We're fans, not zombies. We talk about the good and the bad and owe apologies to nobody. We've certainly covered the scores (McCoy, Hillis, the TEs)... no sense in acting like we're 3-7 because we do everything perfectly.
Nobody thought we were good at WR, including every draft guru on earth. We were regularly ranked 32nd at the position by ESPN and the like. I expected us to sign a free agent and then draft Shipley, Sanders, or Price.
Nobody thought we were good at WR, including every draft guru on earth. We were regularly ranked 32nd at the position by ESPN and the like. I expected us to sign a free agent and then draft Shipley, Sanders, or Price.
Wr was certainly a concern, but we're a ground and pound team. Ur still caught up with this being a passing league, which it is. But without a marquee qb and receivers you will go nowhere. Balance is key.....good running teams with average or better qbs are tearing it up this year.....the pats being the exception. Think the jets are 1st because of Sanchez arm? What'd we do to the saints when they had zero running game? Moss sure has elevated his last 2 teams with his ability to stretch the field. Point being, ur way is NOT the one and only way....
We decided to give our youth a chance to step up....which hasn't happened. So we have a direction to move in the offseason. You expected alot of things shep.....most if not all never come close to being reality. If you could apply an eyeball test rather than take the talking heads opinions as fact, perhaps you could make a correct prediction from time to time. Keep clinging to Rogers as your only success. But your incessant claims that you know what your talking about is why no one wants you on their board. Your a master in your own mind only shep ....no one else's.
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In my book holmgren hasnt made any mistakes yet but his mangini/dabs honeymoon is over and next season begins a new slate and then lets see if he makes mistakes and how bad they are, because next year all of his decisions will prove to be right or will come back to bite him and perhaps even taint his HOF legacy...
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We told him? What GM do you know of that makes decisions solely based on what the fans tell him? That's a great way to get fired.
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We told him? What GM do you know of that makes decisions solely based on what the fans tell him? That's a great way to get fired.
We told him? What GM do you know of that makes decisions solely based on what the fans tell him? That's a great way to get fired.
That's not what I meant ... and you know it. I was just giving kudos to the board and their prediction that without an FA signing at WR, we would not have the skills there that we needed to win consistently. And they were 100% right. And despite all the comments on this string, I think it was an area that Holgrem should have (and could have) addressed in FA. We're 4-7 now. Could the outtcomes of two games been changed with a quality WR? No one knows. If yes, we could be 6-5 and a totally different picture. Having a legit #1 with MoMass at #2 might would have significantly impacted the offence.
I will admit that there is some logic to FA's not wanting to sign with a "bottom dweller" and to the idea that the draft pool is stronger for WR this year. There is also some logic that they wanted to comprehend the QB situation and style of offence before making decisions on WR. But IMHO, there was no logic in assuming that MoMass and RoBo would be an acceptable #1 & #2 nor that you can't fix everything in one year. You can't upgrade all areas in one year but you can address the urgent, uncompetitive areas in one year. To me, that was QB, D-Secondary, Rights side of the O-line and WR. Remember, we thought we had a stud RB already. FA+Draft(x1) for QB's, Fa+Draft(x3) for D-Secondary, Draft(x1) (for O-line) and nothing for WR.
NB: my memory on the 2010 draft / FA may not be 100% accurate but you get the picture. WR wasn't addressed. Perhaps they tried but things didn't pan out. All I'm saying is that it was a mistake. As someone said, you need a balanced offence. We don't have one. Next year, we probably will and perhaps someone will start a thread reflecting on this discussion entitled "Wow, what a difference quality WR's make!".
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Nobody thought we were good at WR, including every draft guru on earth. We were regularly ranked 32nd at the position by ESPN and the like. I expected us to sign a free agent and then draft Shipley, Sanders, or Price.
Wr was certainly a concern, but we're a ground and pound team. Ur still caught up with this being a passing league, which it is. But without a marquee qb and receivers you will go nowhere. Balance is key.....good running teams with average or better qbs are tearing it up this year.....the pats being the exception. Think the jets are 1st because of Sanchez arm? What'd we do to the saints when they had zero running game? Moss sure has elevated his last 2 teams with his ability to stretch the field. Point being, ur way is NOT the one and only way....
We decided to give our youth a chance to step up....which hasn't happened. So we have a direction to move in the offseason. You expected alot of things shep.....most if not all never come close to being reality. If you could apply an eyeball test rather than take the talking heads opinions as fact, perhaps you could make a correct prediction from time to time. Keep clinging to Rogers as your only success. But your incessant claims that you know what your talking about is why no one wants you on their board. Your a master in your own mind only shep ....no one else's.
Wr was certainly a concern, but we're a ground and pound team. Ur still caught up with this being a passing league, which it is. But without a marquee qb and receivers you will go nowhere. Balance is key.....good running teams with average or better qbs are tearing it up this year.....the pats being the exception. Think the jets are 1st because of Sanchez arm? What'd we do to the saints when they had zero running game? Moss sure has elevated his last 2 teams with his ability to stretch the field. Point being, ur way is NOT the one and only way....
We decided to give our youth a chance to step up....which hasn't happened. So we have a direction to move in the offseason. You expected alot of things shep.....most if not all never come close to being reality. If you could apply an eyeball test rather than take the talking heads opinions as fact, perhaps you could make a correct prediction from time to time. Keep clinging to Rogers as your only success. But your incessant claims that you know what your talking about is why no one wants you on their board. Your a master in your own mind only shep ....no one else's.
Dude, what are you doing? Why the unprovoked douchery? C'mon. Get it together. You say Delhomme sucking is the only thing I got right? Or did you say Sanchez? Or Rodgers? Or our lack of WRs? I don't have the time to sift through the nastiness, so just tell me which one was the only one.
But kidding aside... we don't need to act like that to each other. It's not cool at all. We're all over 14 and most of us aren't girls.
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He tosses out 3 QB's and brings in three others. He stacks the RB position, solidifies the O-Line and the D-secondary through the draft and FA. But he leaves the WR position to largely young, untested talent. Who needed Owens more, Cinci or the Browns? There was other talent available in FA. I'm surprised he let the team go into the season so weak at that position. And for those that say you can't do it all in one season, I say why not? Look at KC this year? And there was plenty of time to sign a #1 WR. Could have been a season changer as far as I'm concerned. Your opinion?
He tosses out 3 QB's and brings in three others. He stacks the RB position, solidifies the O-Line and the D-secondary through the draft and FA. But he leaves the WR position to largely young, untested talent. Who needed Owens more, Cinci or the Browns? There was other talent available in FA. I'm surprised he let the team go into the season so weak at that position. And for those that say you can't do it all in one season, I say why not? Look at KC this year? And there was plenty of time to sign a #1 WR. Could have been a season changer as far as I'm concerned. Your opinion?
No one expected TO's new meds to work so well this year.
He's near the end of his career and has, in the past, carried a LOT of baggage.
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