Holmgren's Biggest Mistake
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Competative................thats the key word !...and thats what we are . Competative...... If your team is playing the Cleveland Browns this sunday.....your gonna get a game!!!!!
that is all Browns fans want to hear!
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On Berry, the talk in KC (where I used to live) is he makes a lot of plays... and blows a lot of coverage.
Here's the update on the Browns pick in Walter's Draft... which would make me really happy. And a good point on McCoy:
7. Cleveland Browns: A.J. Green, WR, Georgia
Colt McCoy is the real deal. He's also a perfect as example of why the NFL Draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No one liked McCoy - not Kiper, not McShay, not Mayock, not any draftnik surfing the Web. Not even Mike Holmgren was too high on him; he passed on him twice in Rounds 2-3, and finally picked him when he realized that Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace were his only quarterbacks.
But with McCoy entrenched as the franchise quarterback, the Browns need to provide him with a blue-chip weapon. A.J. Green, who could easily be picked in the top three depending on which teams are drafting up there, is the second-best receiver prospect since Randy Moss (Calvin Johnson).
Pick change; previously Marcell Dareus, DE/DT
On Berry, the talk in KC (where I used to live) is he makes a lot of plays... and blows a lot of coverage.
Here's the update on the Browns pick in Walter's Draft... which would make me really happy. And a good point on McCoy:
7. Cleveland Browns: A.J. Green, WR, Georgia
Colt McCoy is the real deal. He's also a perfect as example of why the NFL Draft is the ultimate crapshoot. No one liked McCoy - not Kiper, not McShay, not Mayock, not any draftnik surfing the Web. Not even Mike Holmgren was too high on him; he passed on him twice in Rounds 2-3, and finally picked him when he realized that Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace were his only quarterbacks.
But with McCoy entrenched as the franchise quarterback, the Browns need to provide him with a blue-chip weapon. A.J. Green, who could easily be picked in the top three depending on which teams are drafting up there, is the second-best receiver prospect since Randy Moss (Calvin Johnson).
Pick change; previously Marcell Dareus, DE/DT
holgrem wanted him plenty but heckert didnt. holgrem was actually made when colt hadnt been picked to that point.
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Did you ever think that they knew they were week at WR, but waited for this years loaded WR class.....
Heckett draft class in Philly is no joke
Jackson
Mcclain
Mccoy
Cobb
If we get somewhere close to this, I will be very happy
Please do not forget that our defense is playing way over there heads because of the sceames that Ryan puts together, fact our front 7 is old, no pass rush DE and if Ryan leaves for a HC job we are Fu$%ed....
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Actualy boldin wanted to get paid. We showed no interest so I thinks its unfair to say he wouldnt have come here...
Who doesn't want to win now? The bottom line is always about showing me the money!
Actualy boldin wanted to get paid. We showed no interest so I thinks its unfair to say he wouldnt have come here...
Who doesn't want to win now? The bottom line is always about showing me the money!
This isn't all about "win now". It's about building the foundation to not only win, but win consistently for years to come. Da Bungles thought they could "win now" by bringing in TO- whoops, wrong. One good thing about this Bungle bungle- that's one team drafting ahead of us who won't be taking a wr.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.
The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.
Mike
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.
The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.
Mike
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.
The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.
Mike
Maybe so. According to your theory then, this will be a great draft and FA year for us, and (if we are competitive now) we should be a playoff team next year. So, as they say, let's see. I don't expect to see any position of glaring weakness next year. So we need to address or continue to address WR, the D-Line, The D-secondary, and at least one young LB.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this in this thread, but has anyone thought that just MAYBE, given what all experts were saying about the Browns before the season, that the good free agent WRs wouldn't even CONSIDER coming here? They would have wanted to go to a WINNER, & we were certainly not on that track. Now, the Browns have recaptured a lot of respect around the league & a solid receiver or two just MIGHT consider the Browns. I honestly don't think we had a prayer of signing a top tier ANYTHING last off season, but we sure had a good draft & picked up enough solid players through trade & free agency that might open up the marketplace for us in the future to obtain top tier free agents.
The Browns DID NOT overpay for poor or washed up positional talent (as the past regimes had)...had Holmgren/Heckert/Mangini done that, THAT would have been the biggest mistake.
Mike
Maybe so. According to your theory then, this will be a great draft and FA year for us, and (if we are competitive now) we should be a playoff team next year. So, as they say, let's see. I don't expect to see any position of glaring weakness next year. So we need to address or continue to address WR, the D-Line, The D-secondary, and at least one young LB.
Maybe so. According to your theory then, this will be a great draft and FA year for us, and (if we are competitive now) we should be a playoff team next year. So, as they say, let's see. I don't expect to see any position of glaring weakness next year. So we need to address or continue to address WR, the D-Line, The D-secondary, and at least one young LB.
I didn't predict that this next draft & free agency period would be "great". It's always a crap shoot. I believe that, due to our level of play & improvement, that we WILL be positioned somewhat better for free agency. My "theory" was simply that a star free agent is not usually eager to sign with a "cellar dweller" & as we improve, our opportunities to sign top tier free agents will increase.
Mike
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Zombo said:
This has turned into a good thread.When the Browns didn't go after a free agent wideout I turned my disappointment into optimism that they had supreme faith in MoMass and that Robo was going to have a breakout year. So much for that thinking.
I think the thing with WRs is, you have to just keep drafting them.
We spent a #3 overall on Braylon and he only really gave us one great season, the rest was very disappointing. On the other hand the Saints tossed out a #7 on Marques Colston and he is the #1 receiver on a SB winning team.
I think MoMass is going to get better moving forward, and Evan Moore will become sort of a Dave Logan type- taking advantage of size mismatches on quicker corners. With Colt's accuracy a guy like that cam become invaluable. That leaves us still needing a true #1 guy though, and I hate to tell skippy, but it's not Charlton Mitchell. If the Jones kid from Bama is there when we draft that would be cool, I don't know what the veteran free agent market is going to look like ... but I would just keep drafting two Wrs a year until we have three we really like.
Zombo
Funny you compare Dave Logan & Evan Moore....so do I. Logan was an absolute favorite of mine, & I also believe Moore could fill that type role.
Mike
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Shoulda woulda coulda.....
We have youth at wr that hasn't panned out....u don't expect them to regress. Its quite easy to sit behind your screen and make these claims halfway thru the season, but we all....including the fo....expected more from our wr corps.
I'm just amused that despite how far we've come in year 2 of a rebuild....its still not enough for most people. Would wins be nice? Absolutely.....but I'm thoroughly enjoying being competitive even if we lose. Ye who never makes a mistake can cast the first stone to call out this team.....cause ur so unrealistic in ur expectations that you set yourself up for disappointment
We're fans, not zombies. We talk about the good and the bad and owe apologies to nobody. We've certainly covered the scores (McCoy, Hillis, the TEs)... no sense in acting like we're 3-7 because we do everything perfectly.
Nobody thought we were good at WR, including every draft guru on earth. We were regularly ranked 32nd at the position by ESPN and the like. I expected us to sign a free agent and then draft Shipley, Sanders, or Price.
Nobody thought we were good at WR, including every draft guru on earth. We were regularly ranked 32nd at the position by ESPN and the like. I expected us to sign a free agent and then draft Shipley, Sanders, or Price.
Wr was certainly a concern, but we're a ground and pound team. Ur still caught up with this being a passing league, which it is. But without a marquee qb and receivers you will go nowhere. Balance is key.....good running teams with average or better qbs are tearing it up this year.....the pats being the exception. Think the jets are 1st because of Sanchez arm? What'd we do to the saints when they had zero running game? Moss sure has elevated his last 2 teams with his ability to stretch the field. Point being, ur way is NOT the one and only way....
We decided to give our youth a chance to step up....which hasn't happened. So we have a direction to move in the offseason. You expected alot of things shep.....most if not all never come close to being reality. If you could apply an eyeball test rather than take the talking heads opinions as fact, perhaps you could make a correct prediction from time to time. Keep clinging to Rogers as your only success. But your incessant claims that you know what your talking about is why no one wants you on their board. Your a master in your own mind only shep ....no one else's.
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In my book holmgren hasnt made any mistakes yet but his mangini/dabs honeymoon is over and next season begins a new slate and then lets see if he makes mistakes and how bad they are, because next year all of his decisions will prove to be right or will come back to bite him and perhaps even taint his HOF legacy...
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We told him? What GM do you know of that makes decisions solely based on what the fans tell him? That's a great way to get fired.
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We told him? What GM do you know of that makes decisions solely based on what the fans tell him? That's a great way to get fired.
We told him? What GM do you know of that makes decisions solely based on what the fans tell him? That's a great way to get fired.
That's not what I meant ... and you know it. I was just giving kudos to the board and their prediction that without an FA signing at WR, we would not have the skills there that we needed to win consistently. And they were 100% right. And despite all the comments on this string, I think it was an area that Holgrem should have (and could have) addressed in FA. We're 4-7 now. Could the outtcomes of two games been changed with a quality WR? No one knows. If yes, we could be 6-5 and a totally different picture. Having a legit #1 with MoMass at #2 might would have significantly impacted the offence.
I will admit that there is some logic to FA's not wanting to sign with a "bottom dweller" and to the idea that the draft pool is stronger for WR this year. There is also some logic that they wanted to comprehend the QB situation and style of offence before making decisions on WR. But IMHO, there was no logic in assuming that MoMass and RoBo would be an acceptable #1 & #2 nor that you can't fix everything in one year. You can't upgrade all areas in one year but you can address the urgent, uncompetitive areas in one year. To me, that was QB, D-Secondary, Rights side of the O-line and WR. Remember, we thought we had a stud RB already. FA+Draft(x1) for QB's, Fa+Draft(x3) for D-Secondary, Draft(x1) (for O-line) and nothing for WR.
NB: my memory on the 2010 draft / FA may not be 100% accurate but you get the picture. WR wasn't addressed. Perhaps they tried but things didn't pan out. All I'm saying is that it was a mistake. As someone said, you need a balanced offence. We don't have one. Next year, we probably will and perhaps someone will start a thread reflecting on this discussion entitled "Wow, what a difference quality WR's make!".
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Nobody thought we were good at WR, including every draft guru on earth. We were regularly ranked 32nd at the position by ESPN and the like. I expected us to sign a free agent and then draft Shipley, Sanders, or Price.
Wr was certainly a concern, but we're a ground and pound team. Ur still caught up with this being a passing league, which it is. But without a marquee qb and receivers you will go nowhere. Balance is key.....good running teams with average or better qbs are tearing it up this year.....the pats being the exception. Think the jets are 1st because of Sanchez arm? What'd we do to the saints when they had zero running game? Moss sure has elevated his last 2 teams with his ability to stretch the field. Point being, ur way is NOT the one and only way....
We decided to give our youth a chance to step up....which hasn't happened. So we have a direction to move in the offseason. You expected alot of things shep.....most if not all never come close to being reality. If you could apply an eyeball test rather than take the talking heads opinions as fact, perhaps you could make a correct prediction from time to time. Keep clinging to Rogers as your only success. But your incessant claims that you know what your talking about is why no one wants you on their board. Your a master in your own mind only shep ....no one else's.
Wr was certainly a concern, but we're a ground and pound team. Ur still caught up with this being a passing league, which it is. But without a marquee qb and receivers you will go nowhere. Balance is key.....good running teams with average or better qbs are tearing it up this year.....the pats being the exception. Think the jets are 1st because of Sanchez arm? What'd we do to the saints when they had zero running game? Moss sure has elevated his last 2 teams with his ability to stretch the field. Point being, ur way is NOT the one and only way....
We decided to give our youth a chance to step up....which hasn't happened. So we have a direction to move in the offseason. You expected alot of things shep.....most if not all never come close to being reality. If you could apply an eyeball test rather than take the talking heads opinions as fact, perhaps you could make a correct prediction from time to time. Keep clinging to Rogers as your only success. But your incessant claims that you know what your talking about is why no one wants you on their board. Your a master in your own mind only shep ....no one else's.
Dude, what are you doing? Why the unprovoked douchery? C'mon. Get it together. You say Delhomme sucking is the only thing I got right? Or did you say Sanchez? Or Rodgers? Or our lack of WRs? I don't have the time to sift through the nastiness, so just tell me which one was the only one.
But kidding aside... we don't need to act like that to each other. It's not cool at all. We're all over 14 and most of us aren't girls.
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He tosses out 3 QB's and brings in three others. He stacks the RB position, solidifies the O-Line and the D-secondary through the draft and FA. But he leaves the WR position to largely young, untested talent. Who needed Owens more, Cinci or the Browns? There was other talent available in FA. I'm surprised he let the team go into the season so weak at that position. And for those that say you can't do it all in one season, I say why not? Look at KC this year? And there was plenty of time to sign a #1 WR. Could have been a season changer as far as I'm concerned. Your opinion?
He tosses out 3 QB's and brings in three others. He stacks the RB position, solidifies the O-Line and the D-secondary through the draft and FA. But he leaves the WR position to largely young, untested talent. Who needed Owens more, Cinci or the Browns? There was other talent available in FA. I'm surprised he let the team go into the season so weak at that position. And for those that say you can't do it all in one season, I say why not? Look at KC this year? And there was plenty of time to sign a #1 WR. Could have been a season changer as far as I'm concerned. Your opinion?
No one expected TO's new meds to work so well this year.
He's near the end of his career and has, in the past, carried a LOT of baggage.
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Yep, the Browns should have added a WR, but there were only so many things the team could fix in the offseason.
Case in point: Heckert said that Dexter McCluster was one of the team's top targets at pick #38. McCluster would have been a very good addition, but the Browns lost out on him and got TJ Ward instead. And I think most of us are glad it worked out that way.
Also, keep in mind that while the FO didn't address the WR position, they did add new receiving targets to the offense. The Ben Watson signing has turned out better than many of us (including me) expected, and the team added two backs who are very good receivers out of the backfield in Hillis & Hardesty.
Hillis is leading the team in catches, and had Hardesty not gotten hurt, we may have seen Peyton used more creatively in the passing game. Back in Denver, Shanahan mused about using Hillis in an h-back/tight end role. And Hardesty used to split out wide in Tennessee's offense: he made 1st round corner Kareem Jackson look bad in last year's Bama game.
All of these additions will complement nicely the receiver(s) we bring in this coming offseason.
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If we did take a receiver....when people say take a receiver, i assume fairly early and aren't talking about loading up on 6th rounder....which of Haden, Ward, or McCoy should we have left on the board??
The point is you can't do everything with one draft. If we are going to talk about mistakes, lets wait until we have had 2-3 drafts.
I also agree about FA.....it's fine and dandy to go after them, but they have to be willing to come to town.
last year we had a pretty bleak record, a coach on the rocks, and a stable of QB's that would make people laugh.
This year is a different story. Let's see what happens between now and the start of next season.
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Peen, I think the Browns could've drafted a WR in round 3-ish, like Shipley, Sanders, or Price. I also think we could've opened up the coffers for a free agent. But we didn't... and in the long run, it'll be okay.
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Peen, I think the Browns could've drafted a WR in round 3-ish, like Shipley, Sanders, or Price. I also think we could've opened up the coffers for a free agent. But we didn't... and in the long run, it'll be okay.
Peen, I think the Browns could've drafted a WR in round 3-ish, like Shipley, Sanders, or Price. I also think we could've opened up the coffers for a free agent. But we didn't... and in the long run, it'll be okay.
I guess we could have. I don't remember all the picks and what round, or what rounds provided extra picks, but as you said, in the end I trust it is all going to work out.
I am pretty big on drafting BPA and not drafting for "needs", but I would be shocked if one of our first two selections in the draft didn't supply a receiver....assuming we don't snag a top FA which might alter things a bit.
At this point I really haven't looked in to what receivers might become available after the season..
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Of the eight receivers drafted in the 3rd round, only one has more than 25 receptions (Shipley). Watson, Stuckey, and Massaquoi all have caught more passes than the rest of the bunch.
Adding a 3rd round WR to the stable would have been nice, but it wouldn't necessarily have had much of an impact on this season. Taylor Price hasn't been active for any games, and while Emmanuel Sanders has made some plays, he also dropped a potential game-winning TD pass yesterday.
Colt's made a bigger impact than the 3rd round wideouts. And after the Hardesty trade, our only shot at one of these WRs would have been if we passed on Freckles. I'm glad we didn't.
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I think we could've done a lot more with either Shipley or Price, given the opportunity here, but I certainly wouldn't give back Freckles.
It's a losing game and always more complicated than it seems (revisionist drafting), but I do think the Browns could've added a more serious WR in the offseason. We'll certainly do it now, which might be better in the long run than if we'd stood pat.
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