Bye Bye Mangini
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Zombo said:
I didn't hear that. Got a link?Zombo
Afraid so:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...12/post_71.html
Afraid so:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...12/post_71.html
Wow talk about grasping for straws...did you even read the article? It talks about McCoy basically taking blame for not getting the team in a good enough groove to keep drives sustained...
"You've got to win games like this," McCoy, who finished with a 132.6 rating, said after the 19-17 loss to the Bengals. "It's our division -- you've got to get hyped up. I thought early on we lacked a little bit of energy -- we lacked a little bit of intensity. And that stems from me, that stems from the older guys on this team, and it stems from all of us coming together and really playing with a lot of energy and a lot of focus. It's hard to do late in the season. But if you want to be a successful football team and want to play great late in the stretch, that's what you've got to do."
Where is he blaming Mangini?
"The whole team has to be involved and has to be motivated and stuff like that," said Hillis. "We have to get to that point. We're so 'off and on' through the whole game. We've got to get to the point where we're like that every drive."
Once again...logical for a team at this stage of their development...no blame on coaching here either.
While I think this is a tough time for Holmgren/Mangini that could end up with EM's firing, it will be a careful thought out action by MH REGARDLESS of what our "blame game " fan base thinks. I for one think its still too early to tell if EM is bad or just chose a bad OC to represent him. Lets get a new OC in here with one more year of good drafts and FA before we drop the revolving coach door bomb...
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If I tried to do that, Mikey, I'd be faking it. I know Walsh's offense uses two backs, usually two receivers, and a TE. I know it's heavy on slants, bigger "YAC" receivers, and a very high-percentage passing game. Needs an accurate passer but not necessarily a cannon and mobility is a really good thing.
I know that Haskell/Holmgren have integrated "WCO elements" into Daboll's offense, which indirectly comes from the Parcells coaching tree, which I believe runs the same offense as the Jimmy Johnson coaching tree because they're both from the same source I can't remember (but someone else has brought up). This offense and the WCO are the two major "trees."
Was it the Alabama coach who became coach of the Giants 30 years ago? And does it connect to Coryell in any way? I know Walsh comes from Paul Brown and was the one who coined WCO.
It would be awesome if somebody could delineate these coaching trees and offenses. It's pretty fascinating.
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I am not surprised. I expected a let down. We played a lot of tough games in a row then go on the road for two straight when we have been basically eliminated from the playoffs. If those games had been at home we would probably win both.
But, we have two home games and I think the team will be highly motivated for these, if only because they came out and said they lacked motivation. No coach has his team up for every game, it is almost impossible. We lack a couple of playmakers who can quickly turn a loss into a win.
We easily beat the pats and aints which were big games at the time. But, this team knows it is out of the playoffs and playing on the road. I know that personal pride is a motivator but some players need more than that.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Buddy,football players are human beings. You cannot expect the same results week in and week out. As teams develop an identity, a freaternity and a culture, they get better and better at minimizing the distractions and errors that prevent consistent play.
When winning requires the entire team to be emotionally and physically near perfection, it is next to impossible to win with regularity. The wins you referred to happened because on those days everything was in line for the Browns.
As you add talent, experience and confidence to the team, the irregularities in performance of individual players on any given day affect the team less and less.
Right now, for the Browns to win, any individual let down pressures the entire team. We just don't have the talent, experience and confidence to overcome that right now.
As I have said before, I abandoned the Lerner Browns for a long time because I didn't believe the team was building the proper core values. Call me emotional or whatever you want, but I believe in this team and in this organization. I even think Lerner finally gets it.
This wishing for Gruden is not good. Let me ask you something; lets put aside the Superbowl he won, and let's put aside how afterwards his team degraded.
Just let's talk about Gruden. What are the core values about him that make you want him? What is his legacy as far as behavior, principle and achievement? In all honestly? I sense more of that Lombardi loyalty brewing in Cleveland with Mangini, than I do from ex Gruden players.
Be careful what you wish for.
I want Mangini to stay.
Ask yourself this much - What do you think Mangini's record would be if he had a shifty RB, a top WR and a bastard pass rusher added to this season? Do you not believe that most, if not all of these close losses would have been converted to wins?
Ah, he is too conservative on offense? Fair enough, but as I see it, this team is on teh right track.
I think gruden gets a bad rap when it comes to some of his x players. Simeon Rice called him a scumbag, cause he was released after being injured. Simeon was a popular player and it didnt go over well with some of the players im sure. It was a business move and was best for the team.
When he coached in Oakland he was able to do what other coaches havent be able to do and that is win with a crappy owner. He is a fiery guy who is from the same tree as Holmgren. As far as the knock he cant develop young qbs, not really fair cause he only had Chris simms. He is an extremely smart guy, as is mangini.
Let me ask you, do you really think Mangini is the guy to get us to a superbowl? Players in New York wore thin on his act. I think Mangini has so much going against him.
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I don't recall seeing so much forward progress on a learner Browns team in the past.
Mangini has giving this team direction.
If next year we were to improve as much as we did this year you can see this could be a team to reckoned with.
Why cant we learn from our past mistake and give a coach that IS making big improvements the time he needs to turn this team around.
I am so tired of us browns fans giving up on our coaches after a few years and then we all wonder why we stay in the basement.
Let the team stay on the Mangini plan a few more years and I think we may final reap our rewards!
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As I understand it, and I definitely could be wrong (this is how it's been explained to me), but the big difference between the WCO and the Parcell's family offense is the idea of establishing the passing game first, versus the running game first. The rest of the differences are basically a consequence of that difference in philosophy.
A WCO uses short to intermediate timing routes by necessity. You need to complete a high percentage of your passes to move the chains. Many times you need the ball to come out before the receiver has even broken and turned around to face the QB.
But WCO doesn't mean "lots of short to intermediate passes," although that's a consequence of it. It refers to an offensive strategy that is in direct and total opposition to the run first philosophy. Using certain plays that a WCO might use doesn't mean you have some sort of run-first, west coast hybrid.
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Ok honest question..
What coaching mistakes can we learn from.? Who did we hire that deserved more time?
I'm really confused on that argument..
Ok honest question..
What coaching mistakes can we learn from.? Who did we hire that deserved more time?
I'm really confused on that argument..
Im not confused at all. You love Gruden in some sick way and thats all you talk about. Give it a rest. I can't speak for everybody on here but I for one am sick of hearing about him.
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Ok honest question..
What coaching mistakes can we learn from.? Who did we hire that deserved more time?
I'm really confused on that argument..
Im not confused at all. You love Gruden in some sick way and thats all you talk about. Give it a rest. I can't speak for everybody on here but I for one am sick of hearing about him.
Im not confused at all. You love Gruden in some sick way and thats all you talk about. Give it a rest. I can't speak for everybody on here but I for one am sick of hearing about him.
Its not just me, now its the media and they are even more annoying than myself.
I only mentioned him in this thread to answer a question..
When you say I love gruden are u saying in the biblical sense
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I don't understand the Gruden love.
he's a good coach, but the guy is hard on QB's.
His offensive isn't all that innovative. The only thing different about it is the strange terminology he uses.
He understands it, but his QBs have a hard time understanding it.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Buddy,football players are human beings. You cannot expect the same results week in and week out. As teams develop an identity, a freaternity and a culture, they get better and better at minimizing the distractions and errors that prevent consistent play.
When winning requires the entire team to be emotionally and physically near perfection, it is next to impossible to win with regularity. The wins you referred to happened because on those days everything was in line for the Browns.
As you add talent, experience and confidence to the team, the irregularities in performance of individual players on any given day affect the team less and less.
Right now, for the Browns to win, any individual let down pressures the entire team. We just don't have the talent, experience and confidence to overcome that right now.
As I have said before, I abandoned the Lerner Browns for a long time because I didn't believe the team was building the proper core values. Call me emotional or whatever you want, but I believe in this team and in this organization. I even think Lerner finally gets it.
This wishing for Gruden is not good. Let me ask you something; lets put aside the Superbowl he won, and let's put aside how afterwards his team degraded.
Just let's talk about Gruden. What are the core values about him that make you want him? What is his legacy as far as behavior, principle and achievement? In all honestly? I sense more of that Lombardi loyalty brewing in Cleveland with Mangini, than I do from ex Gruden players.
Be careful what you wish for.
I want Mangini to stay.
Ask yourself this much - What do you think Mangini's record would be if he had a shifty RB, a top WR and a bastard pass rusher added to this season? Do you not believe that most, if not all of these close losses would have been converted to wins?
Ah, he is too conservative on offense? Fair enough, but as I see it, this team is on teh right track.
I think gruden gets a bad rap when it comes to some of his x players. Simeon Rice called him a scumbag, cause he was released after being injured. Simeon was a popular player and it didnt go over well with some of the players im sure. It was a business move and was best for the team.
When he coached in Oakland he was able to do what other coaches havent be able to do and that is win with a crappy owner. He is a fiery guy who is from the same tree as Holmgren. As far as the knock he cant develop young qbs, not really fair cause he only had Chris simms. He is an extremely smart guy, as is mangini.
Let me ask you, do you really think Mangini is the guy to get us to a superbowl? Players in New York wore thin on his act. I think Mangini has so much going against him.
I think gruden gets a bad rap when it comes to some of his x players. Simeon Rice called him a scumbag, cause he was released after being injured. Simeon was a popular player and it didnt go over well with some of the players im sure. It was a business move and was best for the team.
None of the players Mangini traded called him a scumbag. They only trash talked to organization, and the city. Not one word about the type of person or coach Mangini was.
When he coached in Oakland he was able to do what other coaches havent be able to do and that is win with a crappy owner. He is a fiery guy who is from the same tree as Holmgren. As far as the knock he cant develop young qbs, not really fair cause he only had Chris simms. He is an extremely smart guy, as is mangini.
His first two years, he went .500 both seasons. It's not winning, but it's not losing. It's better than Mangini's first two years, I'll give you that. It's not Mangini's fault he's coaching a team in the AFC North, where 8-8 doesn't get you second place in the division. Last year, 8-8 would still have gotten us 4th place.
Let me ask you, do you really think Mangini is the guy to get us to a superbowl? Players in New York wore thin on his act. I think Mangini has so much going against him.
This is just an opinion.
Let's look at the facts. When Jon Gruden showed up, the Raiders had:
Steve Wisniewski, perennial Pro Bowler at Offensive Guard.
Lincoln Kennedy, Pro Bowl Right Tackle.
Tim Brown at WR, 9x Pro Bowler and 1000+ yards almost every season. A legitimate #1 WR.
Charles Woodson at corner. Enough said.
E-Rock at the other corner (until his untimely death).
Darrell Russell, Pro Bowl defensive tackle.
They went 8-8 Gruden's first year with a stable of QB's. Then, in 1999, Gruden adds Rich Gannon and Tyrone Wheatley, and that's when things started happening. Another 8-8 season while the team started to jell and then, in 2000, they make it to the AFC Championship. Rich Gannon throws for 3480 yards, 28 TD's and 11 INT's. Tyrone Wheatley rushes for over 1000 yards and 9 touchdowns. Tim Brown posts another 1000+ yard season.
The Raiders defense that year finished 9th, ours finished 10th this season. The only difference in the Raiders 2000 season and our current season is that the Raiders had an offense. Jon Gruden inherited a team that had some studs on it, maybe a little old, but playmakers nonetheless. Gruden added a QB and an RB. That's it. That's all they needed, sided with some strong coaching.
Mangini, on the other hand, had to completely rebuild a team from the bottom up. We had two and a half playmakers, and they didn't want to be here. So he got rid of them. He added a QB, he added a RB, a CB and a SS. We're a WR and a RT away from having a team that can compete. And compete in a better division, I might add.
I don't see why Mangini isn't the guy to lead us to a Super Bowl. Why don't you think he's the guy?
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...12/post_71.html
Steve D. mentions it, too. I'll go get it.
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Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.
There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.
I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.
I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.
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Im a little happy with our 5 wins. If you looked at our roster at before the season began some would say we would be lucky to win a game. But with a very impressive year from Hillis and Mcoy we have a positive foundation. Let Eric get us a vet wr and maybe draft another wr we are heading in the right direction. Replace Daboll and a stud de we will be good. ImO
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BTW, Steve D. sees Holmgren coaching next year before handing off to Gruden in 2012.
http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x180877300...h-in-the-mirror
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Mike Lombardi of NFL.com wrote today that Mangini was on a short leash before the season and the last 2 losses sealed his fate. He picks John Fox as the most likely replacement.
Mike Lombardi of NFL.com wrote today that Mangini was on a short leash before the season and the last 2 losses sealed his fate. He picks John Fox as the most likely replacement.
I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.
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We just have to wait and see.............Who knows mite not be nothing to see as there might not be a season anyhow.
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Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.
There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.
I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.
I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.
Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.
There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.
I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.
I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.
I agree. I am willing to bet Holmgren hasn't even made up his mind yet. He has two more weeks of football to watch...
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