Bye Bye Mangini
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Mike Lombardi of NFL.com wrote today that Mangini was on a short leash before the season and the last 2 losses sealed his fate. He picks John Fox as the most likely replacement.
I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.
I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.
It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.
It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.
This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.
This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
You can't always blame a loss on the coach. Yes we as fans want people held accountable but that don't always hang on the coach.
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TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.
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I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.
It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.
It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.
This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.
This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.
It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.
It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.
This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.
This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.
You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or fair... but when players on a 5-9 team question effort or motivation, it always looks bad for the head coach. The buck stops there, as they say. The takeaway is that the coach isn't able to get all his players to play hard every Sunday, which tends to piss off GMs, presidents, and owners.
It's just the way it is. Nothing to do with what I do or don't want. I don't hate Mangini at all... but I think he's toast.
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TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.
TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.
What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.
EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.
I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.
Soccer, Futball, Fusball, Futsal, Foosball, Europe ... Mods are all gay. -
If I tried to do that, Mikey, I'd be faking it. I know Walsh's offense uses two backs, usually two receivers, and a TE. I know it's heavy on slants, bigger "YAC" receivers, and a very high-percentage passing game. Needs an accurate passer but not necessarily a cannon and mobility is a really good thing.
I know that Haskell/Holmgren have integrated "WCO elements" into Daboll's offense, which indirectly comes from the Parcells coaching tree, which I believe runs the same offense as the Jimmy Johnson coaching tree because they're both from the same source I can't remember (but someone else has brought up). This offense and the WCO are the two major "trees."
Was it the Alabama coach who became coach of the Giants 30 years ago? And does it connect to Coryell in any way? I know Walsh comes from Paul Brown and was the one who coined WCO.
It would be awesome if somebody could delineate these coaching trees and offenses. It's pretty fascinating.
If I tried to do that, Mikey, I'd be faking it. I know Walsh's offense uses two backs, usually two receivers, and a TE. I know it's heavy on slants, bigger "YAC" receivers, and a very high-percentage passing game. Needs an accurate passer but not necessarily a cannon and mobility is a really good thing.
I know that Haskell/Holmgren have integrated "WCO elements" into Daboll's offense, which indirectly comes from the Parcells coaching tree, which I believe runs the same offense as the Jimmy Johnson coaching tree because they're both from the same source I can't remember (but someone else has brought up). This offense and the WCO are the two major "trees."
Was it the Alabama coach who became coach of the Giants 30 years ago? And does it connect to Coryell in any way? I know Walsh comes from Paul Brown and was the one who coined WCO.
It would be awesome if somebody could delineate these coaching trees and offenses. It's pretty fascinating.
Every offense is connected nowadays. That's why this "He wants him because he's a WCO guy" is just ridiculous. A good coach curtails his game plan to be effective against the team that he's playing each week. For a coach to do that, the offense has to be familiar with many types of offenses, or else they'd be learning a completely new playbook each week. There's a reason it takes rookie QB's a season or two to become completely comfortable with a team's playbook.
If anything, these terms "WCO" and "Air Coryell" and "Erhardt-Perkins" come down to just the nomenclature of the plays as well as just a mindset, not necessarily the way a play is run. For instance, Walsh believed heavily on scripting his first 20 or so plays, that's a "West Coast" thing to do. But you can script your first 20 plays no matter what offense you run.
That's why I think bringing in a new coordinator and head coach to implement a new "system" at this point would be counterproductive. That means all of the offensive players are going to have to learn an entirely new vocabulary. Audibles will be completely different. A simple inside slant to the slot receiver could go from "Zero Mountain Slot South, Fourteen Fly Kong" in our current system to "Flex Right Heavy 824, Swing Circle" in the new system. Imagine that, multiplied by about 300 times. And that's not including the audibles.
That's why Alex Smith has struggled so much in his short career, he's had 5 different OCs in his 6 years. You can't win when you change a system over and over again.
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It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.
It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.
This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.
This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.
You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or fair... but when players on a 5-9 team question effort or motivation, it always looks bad for the head coach. The buck stops there, as they say. The takeaway is that the coach isn't able to get all his players to play hard every Sunday, which tends to piss off GMs, presidents, and owners.
It's just the way it is. Nothing to do with what I do or don't want. I don't hate Mangini at all... but I think he's toast.
You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or fair... but when players on a 5-9 team question effort or motivation, it always looks bad for the head coach. The buck stops there, as they say. The takeaway is that the coach isn't able to get all his players to play hard every Sunday, which tends to piss off GMs, presidents, and owners.
It's just the way it is. Nothing to do with what I do or don't want. I don't hate Mangini at all... but I think he's toast.
I understand what you're saying. And when I said "you" in my last post, I didn't mean specifically you. I just mean it as each person has their own agenda, so they'll read it how they want to read it.
It's going to look bad on Mangini because the media in Cleveland has hated him since day one. And they won't change how they feel about him. So they'll try and tear him down no matter what. You'll notice last year, when we went on the end of the season streak, nobody in the media was saying "Well, good job Mangini for getting your players up and pumped". It was "Where the hell has this been all season, why couldn't you have done it then?"
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mikeyP72 said:
Shep break down for me exactly what is different in a WCO and the Daboll offense?Is this a serious question?
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TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.
What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.
EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.
I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.
What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.
EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.
I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.
You're right, they didn't beat the best team in football, or the defending Super Bowl champions. You only see what you want to see.
A success over the Pats is going to mean more than a loss to the Bills because we were expected to lose to the Bills.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Some of you folks talk as though we have the least talented, best coached team in football. I just don't see it. Neither our offense or our defense are good statistically. I said at least 5-6 weeks back that we could not run well to the middle or right and that teams were gonna stack up on Hillis which happened. I've seen nothing creative from the coaches to deal with that. The UFO defense has now been "identified". We lost at least two games at the very end with poor defense and awful tackling. Our offensive play calling has been highly questionable. As for Hillis and McCoy's comments, they are probably right on track. To me they question the desire of the players, not the coaches. If I were Holmgren I'd take a REAL hard look at Mangini, Ryan, et al on the coaching staff. I'd also be sure to uninvite any player back for 2011 who didn't put forth their best effort toward the end of the 2010 season. All coaches are expected to win with the team they have....that's just how it goes in the NFL.
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I thought it was Wallace's and Delhomme's ankles that told Holmgren and Mangini to play Colt.
These days the "WCO" (which is really not what it is anymore) is a fast-paced pass/run offense that is designed to spread the ball all over the field so defenses don't know whether to prepare for a pass or run on any given play and whether the ball goes left, middle or right. The QB reads the defense and runs the primary play or switches off to one or more pre-called alternate plays. Daboll's offense has been a little more limited than that, although he gets some serious slack from me for our wideouts (I won't call them receivers). Our offensive line has sucked badly too which dictates conservative calls or face more turnovers.
Colt ran this type of offense at Texas very effectively unlike his Chris Simms like replacement who is now at Texas (aka Gilbert the Grape).
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Here's where Mangini differs from any before for him and I fear any who may come after him
Eric is looking to build a "culture" if you will,he searching out certain "types" that fit his "system"...that's right "system"
something we haven't experienced here for a while
He demands hardworking,self motivated,loyal,cerebral,dedicated players.
Right now some of those types aren't the most athletic,or talented players in the league,but they need to be here to set the example
for the Hadens,McCoys,Wards,and Hillis'... that are talented and athletic...and over time he'll replace the Trusniks,and Ventrones
with talented,athletic kids who will learn from Haden,McCoy,Ward and Hillis...They'll learn hard work,motivation,loyalty,etc.
They'll learn to be... Cleveland Browns
That's what I see Mangini's building here ...a team we can identify with...not just now but years from now
I really believe that if Gruden came here it would be all about winning today...and the hell with tomorrow
I look at a guy like Cam Wimbley...nice guy...but he never felt like a Cleveland Brown to me...hell I couldn't even tell you what number he wore
But I know Gene Hickerson wore 66,Tom Darden wore 27,Dick Ambrose was 52, Matthews 57,Shirk 72,Cockroft 12,Minnefield 31,Pruitt 34&43
How do I know this right off the top of my head,when I couldn't tell you what I had for supper last night?
because these guy's busted their ass for me,for us,for Cleveland every Sunday.
And that is what I believe Eric Mangini is trying to bring to Cleveland...a team that busts its ass for us every week,a team this city
can identify with...but its gonna take more time...more drafts...more talent
I really believe that if we give this guy 2 more years...that 30 years from now we'll all know who wore 23,12,43,and 40.
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What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.
EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.
I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.
You're right, they didn't beat the best team in football, or the defending Super Bowl champions. You only see what you want to see.
A success over the Pats is going to mean more than a loss to the Bills because we were expected to lose to the Bills.
You're right, they didn't beat the best team in football, or the defending Super Bowl champions. You only see what you want to see.
A success over the Pats is going to mean more than a loss to the Bills because we were expected to lose to the Bills.
There's more to a season than 2 games. Once the Browns returned to their old I knew everyone would be hanging onto those wins for a long time.
I don't see only what I want. You think I want to see the Browns play like this.
If this "process" was really working there would be a steady and consistent improvement. Not beat the best and lose for the worst, twice.
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This is just my opinion but this is who i think will be the next coaching staff
HC: Mike Holmgren or Jon Gruden
OC: Jim Zorn
DC: John Fox
and i do believe who ever our next HC is we will make the change to a 4-3 Defence OR we will show multipul fronts
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After catching up on the board this evening I decided that, as a public service, I would make a trip to the local Palm Reader's house to ascertain the future of the Browns. I've got good news and bad news.
First the good news.
Mangini stays, Daboll goes. Chucky comes to Cleveland. Holmgren names Chucky as head coach and Mangini volunteers to become the Offensive Coordinator. A.J Green and Julio Jones go crazy and get arrested for indecent exposure. Both choose community service in lieu of jail time and volunteer to come to Cleveland for free. Justin Blackmon is traded to Cleveland from the Redskins....just because he is deemed to have a poor cardiovascular system. Ryan Broyles is also drafted by the Browns to run in the slot. We also pick up 2 all pro offensive linemen. Someone from Cleveland beats up their dog and then drives him to Michael Vick's house and he has to leave Philly in the middle of the night. He comes to Cleveland because he has always like the Dawgpound. Several key defensive pickups also occur. Sal Alosi is hired for the sole purpose of strengthening the defense to ensure solid tackling at the end of all close games.
Now the bad news. There is a lockout for all of 2011 so there are no games.
Now more good news. Our 2012 draft is even stronger than the 2011. We are loaded for the 2012 season. The 18 game season gets implemented too. As of the middle of December we are UNDEFEATED and a lock for home field advantage throughout the playoff's. The entire NFL is envious of the Browns. In a big surprise, the Steelers franchise crashes and the entire team is moved, during the middle of the night, to Canton where they become the Canton Clowns. Their team colors are changed to pink and white. Big Ben has to retire from football when he gets too friendly with a polar bear at the Canton Zoo and suffers a horrific injury.
Now for the really bad news. Those damn Mayans were right and the world ends on December 21, 2012 when there is a huge polar shift. The 2012 playoff's never happen. Only two people remain on earth and must repopulate the planet. Those two people are Jenn Sterger and Brett Favre.
The one and only time losing is acceptable is when it involves your virginity. -
Here's where Mangini differs from any before for him and I fear any who may come after him
Eric is looking to build a "culture" if you will,he searching out certain "types" that fit his "system"...that's right "system"
something we haven't experienced here for a while
He demands hardworking,self motivated,loyal,cerebral,dedicated players.
Right now some of those types aren't the most athletic,or talented players in the league,but they need to be here to set the example
for the Hadens,McCoys,Wards,and Hillis'... that are talented and athletic...and over time he'll replace the Trusniks,and Ventrones
with talented,athletic kids who will learn from Haden,McCoy,Ward and Hillis...They'll learn hard work,motivation,loyalty,etc.
They'll learn to be... Cleveland Browns
That's what I see Mangini's building here ...a team we can identify with...not just now but years from now
I really believe that if Gruden came here it would be all about winning today...and the hell with tomorrow
I look at a guy like Cam Wimbley...nice guy...but he never felt like a Cleveland Brown to me...hell I couldn't even tell you what number he wore
But I know Gene Hickerson wore 66,Tom Darden wore 27,Dick Ambrose was 52, Matthews 57,Shirk 72,Cockroft 12,Minnefield 31,Pruitt 34&43
How do I know this right off the top of my head,when I couldn't tell you what I had for supper last night?
because these guy's busted their ass for me,for us,for Cleveland every Sunday.
And that is what I believe Eric Mangini is trying to bring to Cleveland...a team that busts its ass for us every week,a team this city
can identify with...but its gonna take more time...more drafts...more talent
I really believe that if we give this guy 2 more years...that 30 years from now we'll all know who wore 23,12,43,and 40.
Here's where Mangini differs from any before for him and I fear any who may come after him
Eric is looking to build a "culture" if you will,he searching out certain "types" that fit his "system"...that's right "system"
something we haven't experienced here for a while
He demands hardworking,self motivated,loyal,cerebral,dedicated players.
Right now some of those types aren't the most athletic,or talented players in the league,but they need to be here to set the example
for the Hadens,McCoys,Wards,and Hillis'... that are talented and athletic...and over
time he'll replace the Trusniks,and Ventrones
with talented,athletic kids who will learn from Haden,McCoy,Ward and Hillis...They'll learn hard work,motivation,loyalty,etc.
They'll learn to be... Cleveland Browns
That's what I see Mangini's building here ...a team we can identify with...not just now but years from now
Wow, he's like King Arthur, George Washington and Captain Kirk all in one.
I really believe that if Gruden came here it would be all about winning today...and the hell with tomorrow
I look at a guy like Cam Wimbley...nice guy...but he never felt like a Cleveland Brown to me...hell I couldn't even tell you what number he wore
But I know Gene Hickerson wore 66,Tom Darden wore 27,Dick Ambrose was 52, Matthews 57,Shirk 72,Cockroft 12,Minnefield 31,Pruitt 34&43
How do I know this right off the top of my head,when I couldn't tell you what I had for supper last night?
because these guy's busted their ass for me,for us,for Cleveland every Sunday.
And that is what I believe Eric Mangini is trying to bring to Cleveland...a team that busts its ass for us every week,a team this city
can identify with...but its gonna take more time...more drafts...more talent
I really believe that if we give this guy 2 more years...that 30 years from now we'll all know who wore 23,12,43,and 40.
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part of the problem as i see it is a portion of the fanbase. if you really expected a turnaround of this team after 2 years then you need to reevaluate your expectations. how can anyone expect this team to be a finished product now? why such urgency to win after losing for more than a decade? the reason: impatience.....
there's a reason we constantly hear that we need to have patience.....cause we do. everyone was flippin shit after mangini's first year cause he only improved one game. so we get halfway thru a rebuild and what......everyone is going crazy and calling for heads before all the pieces can be put into place. we were a fluke in '07....sustained success means we need stability.
think grudens gonna walk in here and get us to the playoffs his first year? please....no coach is going to succeed in this environment until we...as fans....shut the xxxx up and quit acting like we know more than the people who do this for a living. seriously....just shut the xxxx up....all of you. if you want a winner so bad, just shut...the...xxxx...up and let the process run its course. demanding a winner these past ten years has really worked out...hasnt it? whats the common denominator over that time.....lerner, and the fans.
try acting like the great football fans you claim to be, rather than whining like a bunch of school girls.
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Name me one coach in the NFL that came back after being out of coaching for a 2 to 3 year period and were successful
This league is a coach killer and the grind of all grinds..Something tells me MH is beyond that.
Shanahan=disaster in DC
Gibbs=too brutal to talk about
Parcells=.500 coach
I'm sure there are other examples.
Most football fans don't understand how this NFL works
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There are reasons this team is playing worse now than it did five or six weeks ago. In the end, however, they would simply be excuses and I don't think that any coach under fire really wants to pull those types of excuses out.
When you look at this team they are clearly better in terms of talent; The execution is woefully inconsistent.
Then we get to the actual coaching and play-calling. We all like to think that we know how much of any success or failure has to do with the coaches or the players and that's simply impossible for us to know. If a play is unsuccessful, is it because:
1) the other team played really well?
2) our team played really poorly?
3) the play design on our part was dooming it to fail?
We simply don't know.
Players play and coaches coach. That's simply the way it is. I am a Mangini fan. I think he's changed the culture and he's righted the ship. The questions about how far he can take it are perhaps, legitimate based on the last few weeks but if you look at the three weeks when he handed Payton, Belichick and (almost) Rex Ryan their collective asses then you have to wonder if firing him now would be premature. Eric Mangini has shown that, at his best, he can coach with the best in the league. Has he been consistent this year? I don't know. I don't know how much is on the coaches and how much is on the players. When Peyton Hillis gets stuffed on 3rd and 1 and Steinbach blocks AIR on the play and the right side is woeful...I don't know what you're expecting the coach to do with the pieces that he has. The offensive line is over-rated. Some defensive rushers have handled Joe Thomas this year and we give him a pass because he's Joe and we love him. Josh Cribbs hasn't been able to make a cut since training camp and he hasn't produced a single "Josh Cribbs" type of return this season. Everyone has injuries and we're no different...but losing Fujita really set this defense back. Robiskie is starting to make some noise and MoMass looks like he isn't a total stiff but it's a bit late.
Sometimes good coaches get fired because they simply can't overcome the deficiencies which are numerous. Eric Mangini being fired by Mike Holmgren would be understandable from the standpoint of the results on the field and the fact that Holmgren's view of how to fix the offense may be different. Mangini has suffered from his loyalty to his OC...who whether you think he's a big problem or not...shares some blame. Firing Mangini may not be the best move in the short or long term in the sense that it's quite impatient and it will result in blowing up the 3-4 and a new offense. It will involve a new coach wanting "his" guys. Jon Gruden and John Fox are not bad coaches but are they so much better than Eric Mangini that they deserve to run this ship? I think we'd be being awfully generous if we said "yes".
I'd like to keep Eric Mangini for one more season. I don't believe that will happen and I think that will be a setback. I'd also note that no one is asking my opinion.
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Put down the dawg bone, and step away from the egg nog.
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