Bye Bye Mangini
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...12/post_71.html
Steve D. mentions it, too. I'll go get it.
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Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.
There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.
I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.
I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.
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Im a little happy with our 5 wins. If you looked at our roster at before the season began some would say we would be lucky to win a game. But with a very impressive year from Hillis and Mcoy we have a positive foundation. Let Eric get us a vet wr and maybe draft another wr we are heading in the right direction. Replace Daboll and a stud de we will be good. ImO
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BTW, Steve D. sees Holmgren coaching next year before handing off to Gruden in 2012.
http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x180877300...h-in-the-mirror
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Mike Lombardi of NFL.com wrote today that Mangini was on a short leash before the season and the last 2 losses sealed his fate. He picks John Fox as the most likely replacement.
Mike Lombardi of NFL.com wrote today that Mangini was on a short leash before the season and the last 2 losses sealed his fate. He picks John Fox as the most likely replacement.
I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.
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We just have to wait and see.............Who knows mite not be nothing to see as there might not be a season anyhow.
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Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.
There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.
I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.
I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.
Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.
There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.
I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.
I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.
I agree. I am willing to bet Holmgren hasn't even made up his mind yet. He has two more weeks of football to watch...
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Or maybe Holmgren said to start McCoy for the rest of the season to have a better evaluation of what we got, especially since we play 4-5 cold games every year. Or maybe it is all speculation and no one has a clue, even Holmgren as of now.
There is a chance Mangini will be back. There is a chance he will be gone.
I dont think anyone knows, and all of these "experts" with their "sources..." I just feel like Holmgren would not let anything out about what his plans are this offseason just yet, even to any of his assistances.
I could care less any more what happens, as long as we get a new OC, with previous OC experience, as long as their OC experience wasnt has terrible as Daboll's.
I agree. I am willing to bet Holmgren hasn't even made up his mind yet. He has two more weeks of football to watch...
I agree. I am willing to bet Holmgren hasn't even made up his mind yet. He has two more weeks of football to watch...
Very true. And I think Mike knows Eric did a good job with what he had. Ya we lost games we should have won but we also won games we should have lost.
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Here's PFT sort of summing it up. They connected the effort quotes to Mangini's future as well:
Speculation increases about Mangini’s future in Cleveland
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on December 20, 2010, 1:52 PM EST
Don’t tell Browns coach Eric Mangini that December games are meaningless for losing teams.
Last year, a four-game winning streak to close the season saved Mangini’s job. This season, back-to-back losses to the Bills and Bengals have folks in Cleveland believing that Mangini could be on his way out.
Marla Ridnour of the Akron Beacon-Journal believes that “not even a split” of the Browns’ final two games would save Mangini’s job. Dennis Manoloff of the Cleveland Plain-Dealer also believes the entire coaching staff will be gone unless the Browns win the last two games. (The same paper said last week Mangini needed to win two of their final three games for him to stay.)
Rookie quarterback Colt McCoy partially blamed the team’s effort for the loss.
“It’s our division — you’ve got to get hyped up. I thought early on we lacked a little bit of energy — we lacked a little bit of intensity,” McCoy said.
The Browns gave up 188 yards rushing, and only had one rushing first down on offense. Essentially, the Browns looked like the opposite of what we’ve come to expect from a team that has mostly played better than their 5-9 record indicates.
Once again, the team’s December play may decide Mangini’s January fate.
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Mike Lombardi of NFL.com wrote today that Mangini was on a short leash before the season and the last 2 losses sealed his fate. He picks John Fox as the most likely replacement.
I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.
I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.
It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.
It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.
This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.
This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
You can't always blame a loss on the coach. Yes we as fans want people held accountable but that don't always hang on the coach.
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TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.
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I think McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation hurt, too. And no, neither said, "And I really think that was Mangini's fault." But that's not surprising. Anytime you say the team wasn't fired up to play? That casts a bad light on the coach. It says they've lost their team.
It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.
It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.
This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.
This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.
It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.
It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.
This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.
This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.
You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or fair... but when players on a 5-9 team question effort or motivation, it always looks bad for the head coach. The buck stops there, as they say. The takeaway is that the coach isn't able to get all his players to play hard every Sunday, which tends to piss off GMs, presidents, and owners.
It's just the way it is. Nothing to do with what I do or don't want. I don't hate Mangini at all... but I think he's toast.
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TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.
TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.
What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.
EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.
I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.
Soccer, Futball, Fusball, Futsal, Foosball, Europe ... Mods are all gay. -
If I tried to do that, Mikey, I'd be faking it. I know Walsh's offense uses two backs, usually two receivers, and a TE. I know it's heavy on slants, bigger "YAC" receivers, and a very high-percentage passing game. Needs an accurate passer but not necessarily a cannon and mobility is a really good thing.
I know that Haskell/Holmgren have integrated "WCO elements" into Daboll's offense, which indirectly comes from the Parcells coaching tree, which I believe runs the same offense as the Jimmy Johnson coaching tree because they're both from the same source I can't remember (but someone else has brought up). This offense and the WCO are the two major "trees."
Was it the Alabama coach who became coach of the Giants 30 years ago? And does it connect to Coryell in any way? I know Walsh comes from Paul Brown and was the one who coined WCO.
It would be awesome if somebody could delineate these coaching trees and offenses. It's pretty fascinating.
If I tried to do that, Mikey, I'd be faking it. I know Walsh's offense uses two backs, usually two receivers, and a TE. I know it's heavy on slants, bigger "YAC" receivers, and a very high-percentage passing game. Needs an accurate passer but not necessarily a cannon and mobility is a really good thing.
I know that Haskell/Holmgren have integrated "WCO elements" into Daboll's offense, which indirectly comes from the Parcells coaching tree, which I believe runs the same offense as the Jimmy Johnson coaching tree because they're both from the same source I can't remember (but someone else has brought up). This offense and the WCO are the two major "trees."
Was it the Alabama coach who became coach of the Giants 30 years ago? And does it connect to Coryell in any way? I know Walsh comes from Paul Brown and was the one who coined WCO.
It would be awesome if somebody could delineate these coaching trees and offenses. It's pretty fascinating.
Every offense is connected nowadays. That's why this "He wants him because he's a WCO guy" is just ridiculous. A good coach curtails his game plan to be effective against the team that he's playing each week. For a coach to do that, the offense has to be familiar with many types of offenses, or else they'd be learning a completely new playbook each week. There's a reason it takes rookie QB's a season or two to become completely comfortable with a team's playbook.
If anything, these terms "WCO" and "Air Coryell" and "Erhardt-Perkins" come down to just the nomenclature of the plays as well as just a mindset, not necessarily the way a play is run. For instance, Walsh believed heavily on scripting his first 20 or so plays, that's a "West Coast" thing to do. But you can script your first 20 plays no matter what offense you run.
That's why I think bringing in a new coordinator and head coach to implement a new "system" at this point would be counterproductive. That means all of the offensive players are going to have to learn an entirely new vocabulary. Audibles will be completely different. A simple inside slant to the slot receiver could go from "Zero Mountain Slot South, Fourteen Fly Kong" in our current system to "Flex Right Heavy 824, Swing Circle" in the new system. Imagine that, multiplied by about 300 times. And that's not including the audibles.
That's why Alex Smith has struggled so much in his short career, he's had 5 different OCs in his 6 years. You can't win when you change a system over and over again.
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It casts a bad light on the coach because you want it to cast a bad light on the coach. It could just as easily cast a bad light on the organization, the players, anything.
It's not the coach's sole responsibility to fire up his players to play. If you're not fired up to play, that's your own damn fault, and nothing in the world is going to change it. There's been games where the coach could have told me that the world would end if we didn't win, and I still wasn't feeling it based on one thing or another.
This is just the media trying to mold quotes to fit their agenda. For all we know, Colt McCoy or Peyton Hillis could have also said "This is solely based on me. We lost because I didn't play well enough." But that doesn't paint Mangini in a bad light, so of course the media won't publish it.
This is getting to be ridiculous. Let's start over again, everyone. We didn't make the playoffs this year, we obviously suck big time.
You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or fair... but when players on a 5-9 team question effort or motivation, it always looks bad for the head coach. The buck stops there, as they say. The takeaway is that the coach isn't able to get all his players to play hard every Sunday, which tends to piss off GMs, presidents, and owners.
It's just the way it is. Nothing to do with what I do or don't want. I don't hate Mangini at all... but I think he's toast.
You're not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's right or fair... but when players on a 5-9 team question effort or motivation, it always looks bad for the head coach. The buck stops there, as they say. The takeaway is that the coach isn't able to get all his players to play hard every Sunday, which tends to piss off GMs, presidents, and owners.
It's just the way it is. Nothing to do with what I do or don't want. I don't hate Mangini at all... but I think he's toast.
I understand what you're saying. And when I said "you" in my last post, I didn't mean specifically you. I just mean it as each person has their own agenda, so they'll read it how they want to read it.
It's going to look bad on Mangini because the media in Cleveland has hated him since day one. And they won't change how they feel about him. So they'll try and tear him down no matter what. You'll notice last year, when we went on the end of the season streak, nobody in the media was saying "Well, good job Mangini for getting your players up and pumped". It was "Where the hell has this been all season, why couldn't you have done it then?"
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mikeyP72 said:
Shep break down for me exactly what is different in a WCO and the Daboll offense?Is this a serious question?
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TWO years that's all mangini's had to build from nothing. and the rumors of john fox i sure as hell don't want him. i want to see mangini stay another year were moving in the right direction sure we have some bumps but was anyone expecting playoffs this year. if we can finish with a better record than last year that's all i want. We've been ion every game with a few more play makers we'll be making a run for the playoffs next year.
What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.
EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.
I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.
What is this right direction the Browns are moving in? I don't see this mystical and magical improvement. They just lost to the 2 worst teams in the league and needed a missed FG from THE worst team to win.
EM won one more game than Romeo's last year and it will be a loooong shot to improve on last years record.
I know many of you fans don't judge success by wins and losses the problem is everyone else does.
You're right, they didn't beat the best team in football, or the defending Super Bowl champions. You only see what you want to see.
A success over the Pats is going to mean more than a loss to the Bills because we were expected to lose to the Bills.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Some of you folks talk as though we have the least talented, best coached team in football. I just don't see it. Neither our offense or our defense are good statistically. I said at least 5-6 weeks back that we could not run well to the middle or right and that teams were gonna stack up on Hillis which happened. I've seen nothing creative from the coaches to deal with that. The UFO defense has now been "identified". We lost at least two games at the very end with poor defense and awful tackling. Our offensive play calling has been highly questionable. As for Hillis and McCoy's comments, they are probably right on track. To me they question the desire of the players, not the coaches. If I were Holmgren I'd take a REAL hard look at Mangini, Ryan, et al on the coaching staff. I'd also be sure to uninvite any player back for 2011 who didn't put forth their best effort toward the end of the 2010 season. All coaches are expected to win with the team they have....that's just how it goes in the NFL.
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I thought it was Wallace's and Delhomme's ankles that told Holmgren and Mangini to play Colt.
These days the "WCO" (which is really not what it is anymore) is a fast-paced pass/run offense that is designed to spread the ball all over the field so defenses don't know whether to prepare for a pass or run on any given play and whether the ball goes left, middle or right. The QB reads the defense and runs the primary play or switches off to one or more pre-called alternate plays. Daboll's offense has been a little more limited than that, although he gets some serious slack from me for our wideouts (I won't call them receivers). Our offensive line has sucked badly too which dictates conservative calls or face more turnovers.
Colt ran this type of offense at Texas very effectively unlike his Chris Simms like replacement who is now at Texas (aka Gilbert the Grape).
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