Baltimore-Pittsburgh
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The Soldier said:
Art Model moved his team (the Cleveland Browns) from Cleveland to Baltimore. Then they changed the name, and the city of Cleveland was given another team and allowed to call them the Browns.The Raves took the Browns drafting position following the move.
The reason this happened is because the Browns moved to Balitmore.
People don't like to accept this, but this is what happened. Also, Lerner was the connection. He brokered the deal.
Sorry. Still a Browns fan. Just understand the truth.
So as you are saying we got screwed again?
So as you are saying we got screwed again?
Maybe. I'm not judging it. Just pointing out what really happened and not the revisionist thing.
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Keep diggin that hole Formerly Stone. Your almost to China.
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i understand you guys squabbling over this game but no offense:
why are you doing it on THE BROWNS BOARD?
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i understand you guys squabbling over this game but no offense:
why are you doing it on THE BROWNS BOARD?
i understand you guys squabbling over this game but no offense:
why are you doing it on THE BROWNS BOARD?
Because I come on the Browns Board to talk football with fellow football fans. Unfortunately, Squealer fans come here as well. I tried to go to one of their boards to talk about the game, but all they wanted to do was disparage Ed Reed and his missing brother.
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The Soldier said:
Maybe. I'm not judging it. Just pointing out what really happened and not the revisionist thing.You're 100% correct. Lerner was Modell's Baltimore liaison. He kept in constant touch with John Moag of the Maryland Stadium Authority.
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Formerly Stone said:
Because you guys are funny!You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fxcked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fxckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
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Formerly Stone said:
Because you guys are funny!You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fxcked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fxckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
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i understand you guys squabbling over this game but no offense:
why are you doing it on THE BROWNS BOARD?
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Art Model moved his team (the Cleveland Browns) from Cleveland to Baltimore. Then they changed the name, and the city of Cleveland was given another team and allowed to call them the Browns.
The Raves took the Browns drafting position following the move.
The reason this happened is because the Browns moved to Balitmore.
People don't like to accept this, but this is what happened. Also, Lerner was the connection. He brokered the deal.
Sorry. Still a Browns fan. Just understand the truth.
The Soldier said:
Art Model moved his team (the Cleveland Browns) from Cleveland to Baltimore. Then they changed the name, and the city of Cleveland was given another team and allowed to call them the Browns.The Raves took the Browns drafting position following the move.
The reason this happened is because the Browns moved to Balitmore.
People don't like to accept this, but this is what happened. Also, Lerner was the connection. He brokered the deal.
Sorry. Still a Browns fan. Just understand the truth.
You need to listen to your own statement. The name of the Cleveland Browns has never changed. A new name for a NEW franchise was given to Baltimore. That being the Ravens.
No other franchise has EVER been allowed to be called the Browns.
The Ravens being given the Browns drafting position was simply a matter of convenience. The Browns were inactive and the Ravens had to be slotted somewhere. That was the most logical spot.
If you don't want to accept and understand this legal, actual and scientific truth, you can then just shove your F**king head up your own F**king ass, like a Dodo bird.
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i want the gipper to be my lawyer
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Formerly Stone said:
I keep reading your posts hoping that the asshaterry will somehow take a back seat to some intelligent discussion, but alas, no such luck!If you found one Steeler fan who hung his hat on Bradshaw and the Steel Curtain you would be looking at a dead Steeler fan. We hang our hat on the best franchise in all of sports, the best winningest team in the NFL since the merger, the current team of the decade....on and on! You simply can't get any more stupid that that statement!
Are you old enough to be playing hooky from school?
Team of the Decade? Of the 00s decade that team is clearly the Patriots. Of the 2010s, that of course totally remains to be seen. We haven't even had a single champion yet this decade.
Please recall the formula I developed for establishing the Team of the Decade which I applied to ever decade since the 1920s:
I awarded 10 points to a team for winning a title (SB or NFL/AFL/AAFC). 6 points for losing the title game (SB/NFL/AFL/AAFC), 3 points for losing a conference title game, 1 point for making the playoffs. On this scale then for the 2000s the score of each NFL team is as follows:
1. Patriots 41 points. Team of the Decade
2. Steelers 28 points.
3. Colts 25 points
4. Eagles 21 points
5. Giants 20 points
6. Ravens 17 points
7. Saints 14 points
7. Buccaneers 14 points
9. Raiders 10 points
9. Panthers 10 points
9. Seahawks 10 points
12. Rams 9 points
13. Bears 8 points
13. Packers 8 points
13. Vikings 8 points
16. Chargers 7 points
16. Jets 7 points
16. Titans 7 points
16. Cardinals 7 points
20. Broncos 6 points
21. Falcons 5 points
22. Cowboys 4 points
23. Dolphins 3 points
24. Jaguars 2 points
24. Bengals 2 points
24. Redskins 2 points
24. Chiefs 2 points
24. 49ers 2 points
29. Browns 1 point
Lions, Bills, Texans 0 points
Teams of prior decades:
1990s: Cowboys
1980s: 49ers
1970s: Steelers
1960s: Packers
1950s: Browns
1940s: Bears
1930s: Packers
1020s: Bears
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The Soldier said:
Art Model moved his team (the Cleveland Browns) from Cleveland to Baltimore. Then they changed the name, and the city of Cleveland was given another team and allowed to call them the Browns.The Raves took the Browns drafting position following the move.
The reason this happened is because the Browns moved to Balitmore.
People don't like to accept this, but this is what happened. Also, Lerner was the connection. He brokered the deal.
Sorry. Still a Browns fan. Just understand the truth.
You need to listen to your own statement. The name of the Cleveland Browns has never changed. A new name for a NEW franchise was given to Baltimore. That being the Ravens.
No other franchise has EVER been allowed to be called the Browns.
The Ravens being given the Browns drafting position was simply a matter of convenience. The Browns were inactive and the Ravens had to be slotted somewhere. That was the most logical spot.
If you don't want to accept and understand this legal, actual and scientific truth, you can then just shove your F**king head up your own F**king ass, like a Dodo bird.
You need to listen to your own statement. The name of the Cleveland Browns has never changed. A new name for a NEW franchise was given to Baltimore. That being the Ravens.
No other franchise has EVER been allowed to be called the Browns.
The Ravens being given the Browns drafting position was simply a matter of convenience. The Browns were inactive and the Ravens had to be slotted somewhere. That was the most logical spot.
If you don't want to accept and understand this legal, actual and scientific truth, you can then just shove your F**king head up your own F**king ass, like a Dodo bird.
Makes NO logical sense whatsoever. If the Ravens were a brand new franchise why wouldn't they get the first draft slot? Wouldn't it be logical for a expansion franchise to get the first draft position.
Since when does a brand new team get "slotted" into another team draft place? I've only seen them get 1 picks. Why didn't the Browns "slot" into another teams draft position when they decided to become "active" again.? They got the same treatment as Carolina, and Jacksonville, and before them Tampa Bay and Seattle.
The NFL based the Ravens draft on the Browns record. Why? Doesn't sound logical to me?
The Browns packed up all their stuff, in moving trucks, and players, ownership, record, uniforms, etc and moved the team to Baltimore. After this was done, some wording changes were made to appease Browns fans. AFTER the team moved, the NFL, in a legal settlement, said Cleveland can have an expansion team, or another team can move to Cleveland.
Sorry bout this real logic. Play with the words all you want. This is the real story.
Lets use you little McDonalds/Burger King example. If McDonalds takes all it's inventory, moves into a Burger King building, sets up everything and serves McDonalds food, it doesn't matter what the sign says, you're eating McDonalds food. Starting another McDonalds in the fist building, doesn't mean the first move didn't happen.
It's not about liking the Browns. It's accepting the FACT. (not legal wording)
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You need to listen to your own statement. The name of the Cleveland Browns has never changed. A new name for a NEW franchise was given to Baltimore. That being the Ravens.
No other franchise has EVER been allowed to be called the Browns.
The Ravens being given the Browns drafting position was simply a matter of convenience. The Browns were inactive and the Ravens had to be slotted somewhere. That was the most logical spot.
If you don't want to accept and understand this legal, actual and scientific truth, you can then just shove your F**king head up your own F**king ass, like a Dodo bird.
Makes NO logical sense whatsoever. If the Ravens were a brand new franchise why wouldn't they get the first draft slot? Wouldn't it be logical for a expansion franchise to get the first draft position.
Since when does a brand new team get "slotted" into another team draft place? I've only seen them get 1 picks. Why didn't the Browns "slot" into another teams draft position when they decided to become "active" again.? They got the same treatment as Carolina, and Jacksonville, and before them Tampa Bay and Seattle.
The NFL based the Ravens draft on the Browns record. Why? Doesn't sound logical to me?
The Browns packed up all their stuff, in moving trucks, and players, ownership, record, uniforms, etc and moved the team to Baltimore. After this was done, some wording changes were made to appease Browns fans. AFTER the team moved, the NFL, in a legal settlement, said Cleveland can have an expansion team, or another team can move to Cleveland.
Sorry bout this real logic. Play with the words all you want. This is the real story.
Lets use you little McDonalds/Burger King example. If McDonalds takes all it's inventory, moves into a Burger King building, sets up everything and serves McDonalds food, it doesn't matter what the sign says, you're eating McDonalds food. Starting another McDonalds in the fist building, doesn't mean the first move didn't happen.
It's not about liking the Browns. It's accepting the FACT. (not legal wording)
The Soldier said:
Makes NO logical sense whatsoever.Who says it has to make logical sense. Lots of things that have happened in history don't make logical sense. It didn't make logical sense to engage in half the wars we have been engaged in, but we fought those wars anyway.
If the Ravens were a brand new franchise why wouldn't they get the first draft slot? Wouldn't it be logical for a expansion franchise to get the first draft position.
Again, logic hasn't got a cabbage fart in hell to do with it. It was part of the settlement agreement.
Since when does a brand new team get "slotted" into another team draft place?
Since when the NFL said they were to be slotted into that other team's draft place, since that team was not going to be active and was not going to be drafting.
I've only seen them get 1 picks. Why didn't the Browns "slot" into another teams draft position when they decided to become "active" again.? They got the same treatment as Carolina, and Jacksonville, and before them Tampa Bay and Seattle.
Yes, they did. So what? They neither required nor asked for your approval when they came up with this plan.
The NFL based the Ravens draft on the Browns record. Why? Doesn't sound logical to me?
Sure, it makes perfect logical sense. The Browns were not going to be playing, the Ravens were. The NFL didn't want a void in that slot so they just stuck the Ravens in there
The Browns packed up all their stuff, in moving trucks,
No, the Browns didn't. There was a court injunction in place preventing Modell from moving anything.
and players, (eventually some players moved to B-more, yes). ownership, record, (NO, neither of these moved. The Browns franchise ownership moved into The Cleveland Browns Trust, with Mr. Bill Futterer as the appointed trustee, headquartered in the Browns Berea offices) uniforms, (maybe not, I believe all the Browns uniforms stayed right here. The Ravens never used them) etc and moved the team to Baltimore. After this was done, some wording changes were made to appease Browns fans. AFTER the team moved, the NFL, in a legal settlement, said Cleveland can have an expansion team, or another team can move to Cleveland.
Again....NO, the legal settlement came first....any movement of anything by Modell was enjoined by the court. Only after the settlement was negotiated and implemented was anything really moved. Maybe a few chattels were hauled off, but the franchise, the ownership, , the records, history etc. never moved. The player agreements were only assigned from the Browns to the Ravens after the settlement.
Sorry bout this real logic. Play with the words all you want. This is the real story.
I am sorry that the facts get in the way of your delusion. This isn't word play, it is fact. If you want to think your fantasy is real, fine. Just go find some prozac or something to help you along.
Lets use you little McDonalds/Burger King example. If McDonalds takes all it's inventory, moves into a Burger King building, sets up everything and serves McDonalds food, it doesn't matter what the sign says, you're eating McDonalds food. Starting another McDonalds in the fist building, doesn't mean the first move didn't happen.
It's not about liking the Browns. It's accepting the FACT. (not legal wording)
How would you like to wager $1000.00 that my version is correct?
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The Soldier said:
Makes NO logical sense whatsoever.Who says it has to make logical sense. Lots of things that have happened in history don't make logical sense. It didn't make logical sense to engage in half the wars we have been engaged in, but we fought those wars anyway.
If the Ravens were a brand new franchise why wouldn't they get the first draft slot? Wouldn't it be logical for a expansion franchise to get the first draft position.
Again, logic hasn't got a cabbage fart in hell to do with it. It was part of the settlement agreement.
Since when does a brand new team get "slotted" into another team draft place?
Since when the NFL said they were to be slotted into that other team's draft place, since that team was not going to be active and was not going to be drafting.
I've only seen them get 1 picks. Why didn't the Browns "slot" into another teams draft position when they decided to become "active" again.? They got the same treatment as Carolina, and Jacksonville, and before them Tampa Bay and Seattle.
Yes, they did. So what? They neither required nor asked for your approval when they came up with this plan.
The NFL based the Ravens draft on the Browns record. Why? Doesn't sound logical to me?
Sure, it makes perfect logical sense. The Browns were not going to be playing, the Ravens were. The NFL didn't want a void in that slot so they just stuck the Ravens in there
The Browns packed up all their stuff, in moving trucks,
No, the Browns didn't. There was a court injunction in place preventing Modell from moving anything.
and players, (eventually some players moved to B-more, yes). ownership, record, (NO, neither of these moved. The Browns franchise ownership moved into The Cleveland Browns Trust, with Mr. Bill Futterer as the appointed trustee, headquartered in the Browns Berea offices) uniforms, (maybe not, I believe all the Browns uniforms stayed right here. The Ravens never used them) etc and moved the team to Baltimore. After this was done, some wording changes were made to appease Browns fans. AFTER the team moved, the NFL, in a legal settlement, said Cleveland can have an expansion team, or another team can move to Cleveland.
Again....NO, the legal settlement came first....any movement of anything by Modell was enjoined by the court. Only after the settlement was negotiated and implemented was anything really moved. Maybe a few chattels were hauled off, but the franchise, the ownership, , the records, history etc. never moved. The player agreements were only assigned from the Browns to the Ravens after the settlement.
Sorry bout this real logic. Play with the words all you want. This is the real story.
I am sorry that the facts get in the way of your delusion. This isn't word play, it is fact. If you want to think your fantasy is real, fine. Just go find some prozac or something to help you along.
Lets use you little McDonalds/Burger King example. If McDonalds takes all it's inventory, moves into a Burger King building, sets up everything and serves McDonalds food, it doesn't matter what the sign says, you're eating McDonalds food. Starting another McDonalds in the fist building, doesn't mean the first move didn't happen.
It's not about liking the Browns. It's accepting the FACT. (not legal wording)
How would you like to wager $1000.00 that my version is correct?
How would you like to wager $1000.00 that my version is correct?
He doesn't have $1000. Now quit tempting to start robbing and or become a drug dealer.
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The Soldier said:
Makes NO logical sense whatsoever.Who says it has to make logical sense. Lots of things that have happened in history don't make logical sense. It didn't make logical sense to engage in half the wars we have been engaged in, but we fought those wars anyway.
If the Ravens were a brand new franchise why wouldn't they get the first draft slot? Wouldn't it be logical for a expansion franchise to get the first draft position.
Again, logic hasn't got a cabbage fart in hell to do with it. It was part of the settlement agreement.
Since when does a brand new team get "slotted" into another team draft place?
Since when the NFL said they were to be slotted into that other team's draft place, since that team was not going to be active and was not going to be drafting.
I've only seen them get 1 picks. Why didn't the Browns "slot" into another teams draft position when they decided to become "active" again.? They got the same treatment as Carolina, and Jacksonville, and before them Tampa Bay and Seattle.
Yes, they did. So what? They neither required nor asked for your approval when they came up with this plan.
The NFL based the Ravens draft on the Browns record. Why? Doesn't sound logical to me?
Sure, it makes perfect logical sense. The Browns were not going to be playing, the Ravens were. The NFL didn't want a void in that slot so they just stuck the Ravens in there
The Browns packed up all their stuff, in moving trucks,
No, the Browns didn't. There was a court injunction in place preventing Modell from moving anything.
and players, (eventually some players moved to B-more, yes). ownership, record, (NO, neither of these moved. The Browns franchise ownership moved into The Cleveland Browns Trust, with Mr. Bill Futterer as the appointed trustee, headquartered in the Browns Berea offices) uniforms, (maybe not, I believe all the Browns uniforms stayed right here. The Ravens never used them) etc and moved the team to Baltimore. After this was done, some wording changes were made to appease Browns fans. AFTER the team moved, the NFL, in a legal settlement, said Cleveland can have an expansion team, or another team can move to Cleveland.
Again....NO, the legal settlement came first....any movement of anything by Modell was enjoined by the court. Only after the settlement was negotiated and implemented was anything really moved. Maybe a few chattels were hauled off, but the franchise, the ownership, , the records, history etc. never moved. The player agreements were only assigned from the Browns to the Ravens after the settlement.
Sorry bout this real logic. Play with the words all you want. This is the real story.
I am sorry that the facts get in the way of your delusion. This isn't word play, it is fact. If you want to think your fantasy is real, fine. Just go find some prozac or something to help you along.
Lets use you little McDonalds/Burger King example. If McDonalds takes all it's inventory, moves into a Burger King building, sets up everything and serves McDonalds food, it doesn't matter what the sign says, you're eating McDonalds food. Starting another McDonalds in the fist building, doesn't mean the first move didn't happen.
It's not about liking the Browns. It's accepting the FACT. (not legal wording)
How would you like to wager $1000.00 that my version is correct?
How would you like to wager $1000.00 that my version is correct?
Listen, I undertand you are basing your argument on "legal" definitions. My argument is based in reality. You can word it any way it makes you feel better.
If you are stopped for driving 75mph in a 35 mph, and the police decide not to give you a ticket, we were still speeding. You can argue you wern't speeding because you didn't recieve a ticket, but the reality is that you were speeding.
I can see what your point is. I just happen not to buy into it.
Your view that the NFL decided to add a team to Baltimore (that contained the Browns players) and remove a team from Cleveland for a while.
I believe that the Browns owner moved his team to Baltimore, and the NFL re-worded everything to revise what happend to appease fans.
No need for name calling.
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Go 'Lers said:
Empathy for Baltimore?I probably over analyzed this but here goes nothing. The Ravens were once the Cleveland Browns, their bastard owner relocated them, yet football returned to the shores of Lake Erie. Now that the stench of Modell is gone AND that Baltimore did let you keep your name, history, and colors, do you find this fan base --dare I say-- connecting with Baltimore's fan base on some level?
Losing a football team is never easy and I know Cleveland hated it but since you only waited 3 years (compared to Baltimore's 12) and that Baltimore had their heart broken once as well, is there a begrudging yet mutual respect and understanding between Cleveland and Baltimore? After all, they understood your pain
Please refrain from posting disparaging remarks, I only posed this question due to the remarks of the group members dealing with the upcoming playoff match up between the Ravens and Steelers.
Ok ill take a stab at it, and im only speaking for myself here.
I don't hate Baltimore. Their fans had nothing to do with Art taking the team to their city, and if the tables were reversed we Clevelanders would give two sh*** and embrace any team that came to our city irregardless of where they came from.
And to take it one step further, I think that most Cleveland Browns fans are so utterly blinded and filled with hate for the Pittsburgh Steelers that hating anyone else as much or even approaching to hate ANY team as much will fall comparatively short.
I'll be the first to admit it, too. I think most Browns fans are jealous of the Steeler organization (though not many fans will admit it.) We hate that we can't beat you, we hate that you own us since we've came back, and every time you guys beat us it makes the hate that much more deep and intense. That's the truth.
Hating the Ravens just doesn't have the history or meaningful games behind it to produce any form of true hatred like we have for the Steelers. When that time comes, I think even still we will hate Pittsburgh more. It's just in our blood.
Ok ill take a stab at it, and im only speaking for myself here.
I don't hate Baltimore. Their fans had nothing to do with Art taking the team to their city, and if the tables were reversed we Clevelanders would give two sh*** and embrace any team that came to our city irregardless of where they came from.
And to take it one step further, I think that most Cleveland Browns fans are so utterly blinded and filled with hate for the Pittsburgh Steelers that hating anyone else as much or even approaching to hate ANY team as much will fall comparatively short.
I'll be the first to admit it, too. I think most Browns fans are jealous of the Steeler organization (though not many fans will admit it.) We hate that we can't beat you, we hate that you own us since we've came back, and every time you guys beat us it makes the hate that much more deep and intense. That's the truth.
Hating the Ravens just doesn't have the history or meaningful games behind it to produce any form of true hatred like we have for the Steelers. When that time comes, I think even still we will hate Pittsburgh more. It's just in our blood.
VERY insightful point, Baltimoreans didn't steal the Browns but they sure as heck would embrace a team that came their way.
Sometimes we forget its not the city, its the owner.
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Still talkin' Steelers on a Browns message board I see.
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Formerly Stone said:
You have to understand that for many Browns fans to accept the reality about the Browns leaving Cleveland would mean accepting that they and their city simply aren't the fans, and the city, that they like to think they areIt's like the no good bum who's wife divorces him. When he tells the story..... he left her! Furthermore, the way he tells it, she was the no good lazy bitch. Despite the fact that she went on to be an ultra successful person while he continued to be the same bum.............sound familiar?
It had nothing to do with us fans. It was due to poor decisions made by Model, along with city politics that forced the move. Also, i believe Lerner made out ok on the deal also.
In fact, we (the fans) were the reason we we awarded another team. We didn't take it laying down.
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you take it laying down these days and those days add up to 10 years of Browns ball which are toilet turds.
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Formerly Stone said:
The city politics were definitely at work. And many would say the overall situation, including the fans, was at work. After all, it didn't take long in another city to build a winner and Cleveland and it's fans still have seen anything close. Just sayin!I'm just sayin' that the fans were not the cause for the move. Fan support was there. It was poor business decisions and politics that made this move happen. We haven't had a winner, true, but that has nothing to do with the fans. And Baltimore did not build a winner due to fans.
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