Jauron's task of fixing the Browns' defense

slowburn

Heckert has intimated in recent interviews that he was hamstrung to a degree by mangini's reluctance to sign off on some of the players he wanted in last year's draft.......there was a major rift in their

philosophies on the type of players best suited for the Browns. whatever the reason it was decided to defer to mangini's desires on whom he did and didn't want on the team...

I'd like to think that this year's draft will surpass a decent 2010 primarily due to Hecks having more decision making autonomy

SJ_Browns

@pumpkin-eater said:
Ryan= most overrated coach in Cleveland history. Why are people still riding his dick? What exactly did he do that was so great? Nothing. He sucked in Oakland, Cleveland, and will in Dallas.
has he ever had a top 15 defense?

i've said it before and i'll say it again. imo ryan's d was nothing more than over-aggressive playcalling and trying to fool opposing offenses with tricks and gimmicks. that's not going to get you far in the nfl. we all saw what happened when people figured out ryan's style.

SJ_Browns

@slowburn said:
Heckert has intimated in recent interviews that he was hamstrung to a degree by mangini's reluctance to sign off on some of the players he wanted in last year's draft.......there was a major rift in their
philosophies on the type of players best suited for the Browns. whatever the reason it was decided to defer to mangini's desires on whom he did and didn't want on the team...

I'd like to think that this year's draft will surpass a decent 2010 primarily due to Hecks having more decision making autonomy

and don't forget, heckert and co have had an entire season to scout and collect data from the college ranks (draft) and fa (nfl) to fit the browns list of needs now. their first draft for the browns, ofcourse, they didn't have as much time becuase they were with another team during the season.

rich4eagle

Nice discussion. I prefer the 3-4 like some others. But both defenses can be dominant. I just never understood why we switched from the 4-3 when Sewage and Crennel arrived. We did not have the people to run a good 3-4. The best lineman we had, a decent tackle in a 4-3, was forced to be the NT, Orpheus Roye no way suited for that. Then we brought in FAT washed up Ted, and Rogers who was a very good 4-3 tackle but lazy and fat so we made him fatter and a nose tackle.

We never got the linebackers to execute the 3-4 and Savage brought in some used up LB's as well.

Here's my take on both defenses and which to use. The 4-3 works best when you have three lineman who can penetrate. Especially both DE's who can rush the passer. Indy has two prime examples of pass rushing DE's. The teams that do well in the 4-3 have the DE's who make sacks. So the key if running a 4-3 is getting those up front guys with size speed and moves and containment ability. Not simple to get er done. When Paul Wiggin and Bill Glass were the DE's in the last Browns Championship season we had that.. two really good pass rushers from the DE position.

To run the 3-4 the LB's are the key. The front three requires a block of granite in the middle like Casey Hampton and two DE's the can take on OL guys and neutralize them. Then the LB's can roam and make plays. The two inside LB's must really be good against the run and fill gaps. The two outside LB's in the 3-4 are even more important because they must be really good pass rushers as well keeping the edges intact against outside running. Some teams have used the 3-4 for decades especially the Steelers. However, the Steel Curtain was 4-3 team with two great pass rushing ends and a home wrecker at one tackle position. The Browns a great inside rusher in Michael Dean Perry at tackle. AJ Hawk is a perfect IL for the 3-4.

If you have noticed through the years the Steelers always focus on getting great LB's and then let them go when they cost more than they are worth and bring in the young guys they drafted. Sewage did the opposite brought in overpaid graybeards. NE does the same stuff as Pittsburgh but Belichick has at times gone to a 4-3 D when his people did not fit the 3-4.

That is the rub I have had since the beginning of rebirth. We spent all our money on the OL when we started and mostly have done so ever since. Under Butch we drafted DL guys who were not very good at pass rushing or were one dimensional, Courtney Brown is a perfect example. Once teams figured out he had one move speed rush outside, they neglected the bull rush and spin moves as an abiilty and he was duh ordinary. Under Sewage we switched and never got the people to do the 3-4. We drafted one dimensional Wimbley and they figured him out and he became ordinary.

If you watch James Harrison he is the perfect 3-4 LB, fast, elusive, punishing and can defend the run or pass or rush the passer. This is what is the best on the edge like our own Clay Matthews and his son as well. To make the 3-4 exceptional you need great OL's

So all that all this says.........is GET the people to fit the system. Or change the system to fit the people. 3-4 focus on LB's. 4-3 better get two good pass rushing DE's and one inside guy who can rush as well.

The Browns have been putting square pegs into round holes until now. I think Heckert(this guy seems to be a real steal) and Holmgren will make us a lot better.

Issues remain. We need real receivers. We need to see Colt become a high quality QB. We are woefully weak at RB. Sorry to burst some bubbles but Peyton Hillis is not going to be a force for very long. He snuck up on the opposition. I think he will end up like Rubin Droughns and Jamal (tap dance) Empty Tank Lewis. We need two real rbs besides him.

Focus on the draft and getting people who touch the ball who make impacts and people on defense who are disruptive as the second priority.

calfoxwc

Thank for you for the good post, except the last part about Hillis. That's dumb.

So, Thank You to the guy who wrote that first part for Rich !

rich4eagle

Thank you as well Cal........but Hillis does not have moves or speed ............he has good field vision and great hands and desire...............field vision moves and speed make a

rb be a force for more than a short time

Peyton is missing two ingredients

SJ_Browns

@calfoxwc said:
Thank for you for the good post, except the last part about Hillis. That's dumb.
So, Thank You to the guy who wrote that first part for Rich !

nickers

Give Rich some props...he atleast talked about football lol.

rich4eagle

not only talked football but astutely..............unbelievable or sumtim

If I run for Senator will anyone volunteer to work for me

roach

@rich4eagle said:
not only talked football but astutely..............unbelievable or sumtim
If I run for Senator will anyone volunteer to work for me

i won't work for you, but after a couple margaritas i'd vote for you.

Nice post earlier. i agree with your defensive analysis. i don't agree with the Hillis comment. That guy makes plays on a team that lacks playmakers. Having Cribbs and Hillis in the huddle at the same time created some real problems for opposing defenses. When Cribbs went down, it was easier for teams to focus on our only weapon.

Erie Dawg

@rich4eagle said:
Thank you as well Cal........but Hillis does not have moves or speed ............he has good field vision and great hands and desire...............field vision moves and speed make a
rb be a force for more than a short time

Peyton is missing two ingredients

Hillis has great speed for his size and as far as moves, he is a hit the hole and break tackles type of back. The guy has the balance of a cat, and don't go down with an arm tackle. Will a back like this last forever? No.

But you are trying to compare him to something he isn't.

Also moves will lead a back to put the ball in awkward positions and lose ball control making it easy for him to be stripped or have the ball popped loose.

But im interested in hearing who has what hillis has plus moves and speed.

ill take his frame,speed,hands and desire in the flat any day.

But If we get some hot recievers that can take the load off him, we may see him for a long time to come.

Nw220

@rich4eagle said:
Thank you as well Cal........but Hillis does not have moves or speed ............he has good field vision and great hands and desire...............field vision moves and speed make a
rb be a force for more than a short time

Peyton is missing two ingredients

Okay Peyton does have good enough speed, id say hes quite fast for how big he is...And he dosent have any moves the guy hurdles people like there nothing and your telling me he's not althetic...Also he has one of the best stiff arms in the game and thats a good move to have..

Hillis may get banged up and i do think we need to add depth to the RB position but believe it that Hillis is the real deal, hes the best thing to come to Cleveland in a long time...

SJ_Browns

i agree that we need a change of pace back to compliment hillis and i do think that hillis has potential and can do some good things for the browns, i just hope that hillis can work on the fumbling issues and not be so careless when he decides to hurdle someone. last time he hurdled somebody, they were waiting for it and got the best of that one.

The Gipper

@rich4eagle said:
not only talked football but astutely..............unbelievable or sumtim
If I run for Senator will anyone volunteer to work for me

Is your name Palpatine, Senator?

The Gipper

@nw220 said:
Okay Peyton does have good enough speed, id say hes quite fast for how big he is...And he dosent have any moves the guy hurdles people like there nothing and your telling me he's not althetic...Also he has one of the best stiff arms in the game and thats a good move to have..
Hillis may get banged up and i do think we need to add depth to the RB position but believe it that Hillis is the real deal, hes the best thing to come to Cleveland in a long time...

OK, Hillis doesn't have the moves of Gale Sayers or Barry Sanders. And he may not be quite as fast as say, Chris Johnson.

But he has had time where he has had the open field in front of him, and he wasn't caught from behind.

rich4eagle

@roach said:
i won't work for you, but after a couple margaritas i'd vote for you.
Nice post earlier. i agree with your defensive analysis. i don't agree with the Hillis comment. That guy makes plays on a team that lacks playmakers. Having Cribbs and Hillis in the huddle at the same time created some real problems for opposing defenses. When Cribbs went down, it was easier for teams to focus on our only weapon.

Thanks, I just do not see Hillis as being a force for very long. Moves and speed make a long term success at RB..............and good hands...........he has the hands

Do not expect him to do more than he did last year ever again

We need that RB who is a yard guy and a danger on every down.........GB was lucky to make it without that kind of RB

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@rich4eagle said:
Thanks, I just do not see Hillis as being a force for very long. Moves and speed make a long term success at RB..............and good hands...........he has the hands
Do not expect him to do more than he did last year ever again

We need that RB who is a yard guy and a danger on every down.........GB was lucky to make it without that kind of RB

So when a team doesn't have something that you say is "necessary" to winning, but they still win anyway, they're just lucky?

We need whatever makes us better. Your supposed "fix-it-all" needs and "genius" ideas are the same as anyone elses. If they weren't, you'd be running a team instead of bitching online about how nobody does it right.

We have a runningback. If he even gets close to the numbers he had this year, Hillis will be a success. There are more important needs than finding a scat back just because you have a boner for Darren Sproles. We need to address our more important needs first, and then maybe add a change of pace guy. Like a Jacquizz Rodgers in the late rounds. That's IF we address RB at all, which I don't see as being a high priority for the new regime.

The Gipper

@rich4eagle said:
Thanks, I just do not see Hillis as being a force for very long. Moves and speed make a long term success at RB..............and good hands...........he has the hands
Do not expect him to do more than he did last year ever again

We need that RB who is a yard guy and a danger on every down.........GB was lucky to make it without that kind of RB

I used the example of Jerome Bettis elsewhere. He lasted a long, long time in this league and he was bulkier and slower than Hillis, so this propaganda being bandied about by you Steeler trolls that "Hillis cannot last long" is purely farcical.

peterbell

Well..The Browns are fixing something that wasn't really broke. 13th in scoring defense with you're defensive team leader out (Fujita) is just about good enough to get you to the tournament by adding a pice or two. Sounds like Heckert said its difficult to get 3-4 players?..Thats your job Tom..it is tough.. but making 2-3 mill a year it should be tough.. not conveniant for you.

I don't know this answer but just curious. Has any team gone from playing the 3-4 and switched back to the 4-3? Seems like a large number are going from 4-3 to 3-4 defenses as opposed to the reverse.

Harry Buffalo

@peterbell said:
Well..The Browns are fixing something that wasn't really broke. 13th in scoring defense with you're defensive team leader out (Fujita) is just about good enough to get you to the tournament by adding a pice or two. Sounds like Heckert said its difficult to get 3-4 players?..Thats your job Tom..it is tough.. but making 2-3 mill a year it should be tough.. not conveniant for you.
I don't know this answer but just curious. Has any team gone from playing the 3-4 and switched back to the 4-3? Seems like a large number are going from 4-3 to 3-4 defenses as opposed to the reverse.

It is easier to find 4-3 players because so many more teams are either a 3-4 now or are converting. That leaves players that 3-4 defenses won't look at because they don't fit in their system. Running a 4-3 you can find good DT's later in the draft because they are passed over by all the 3-4 teams. It's the same when the 3-4 was new they could pick up these OLB/DE prospects that other 4-3 defenses didn't really want to take a chance on because they would either be too big or too small for what they needed and NT like DT would be looked over for being too big and too slow. Now those kind of players are taken in the first round every year.